Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Torquila on April 23, 2012, 04:37:19 AM
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It is interesting to see the 163 is finally fully living up to its purpose! Albiet more then half a century later and in a video game.
I say the 163 is responsible for the decline in the bomber attempts and culture in general around the map, and especially HQ/etc.
It breaks the time invested to reward expectation of the "game" paradigm, because you spent more then half an hour getting there and it climbs up to you in a manner of seconds. A good pilot in it can usually wipe out all 3 bombers almost no sweat.
AH needs a safer environment for Bombers to conduct their operations, unless it become a solely clandestine sort of thing for the hardcore squads, and upping the me163 perks to maybe 2-3 or even 4 times its current cost is what I imagine is a good approach.
Thoughts?
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I say the 163 is responsible for the decline in the bomber attempts and culture in general around the map, and especially HQ/etc.
agreed
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163 has been around longer than me and I don't see any evidence to support your notion that they have somehow become a bigger issue for buff pilots.
I'm not even sure there is a big decrease in HQ raids. Besides, if the 163 is pestering bombers, GOOD! That makes it one of the few planes doind what was designed to do IRL.
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I have the luxury of seeing before and after but it doesn't change anything.
Bombers presence can be a problem if they are unchecked, which is why the 163 should still be there, but its too easily available and has shifted the balance too far against bombers.
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I have the luxury of seeing before and after but it doesn't change anything.
Bombers presence can be a problem if they are unchecked, which is why the 163 should still be there, but its too easily available and has shifted the balance too far against bombers.
I need more evidence then your anecdotes.
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Hold it!
Your honour, the prosecution is asking for evidence in a matter which they have a personal grudge. I would like to request that his objection be stricken from the log on those grounds.
Forums: "And what grounds are those?"
Take that!
"In my experience it is usually those most deserving who won't ask", this was a statement by the prosecution previously explaining his anecdotal summary of a situation, though a different one. It shows he clearly subscribes to the idea of experience and anecdotes as solid base for an arguement. It must be noted that the defence agrees with his idea and approach to situations, but thinks that it would serve everyone best to trust other people's experience as well!
Forums: "Hmm... I see where your going with this, any comments from the prosecution?"
Seems like its your turn, how bout some music for the mood?
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdIlP488n14
Go go go go go!!!
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FYI, im just having fun with you ;)
But I don't have any evidence to support my claims, even if I were to collect all the bomber missions/flights from previous to the 163 and post, and show it as a curve on a graph I don't think I can sell it to convince you of it. Maybe someone could make a good arguement about HTC adding formations to the game to offset the loss in active bombers sorties, or something like that, i dunno.
:airplane:
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The 163's primary purpose is to defend HQ in Aces High, in which its basic function is to give "Radar" for the entire country. Me-163's in my opinion is the best fighter in the game, able to out turn and out fly anything.
Given its perk value of usually around 50, I think it's genuinely fair.
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Show up at an enemy horde with a 163 and they will instantly give up thier altitude.
Great for breaking up a high fighter cap.
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Since they were death traps in real life their perk price should reflect that. Im not saying 262 price but double what they are. And what they are are the most obnoxious little plane in the game. The last time I was on a HQ run I bet we lost 1/2 our bomber flight to boneheads ramming the bombers in 163s cause they dont know how to fly them. Ive never gone on a HQ run again after that. 50 perks is nothing for a good bomber kamakazi session. Its just the cost of a few vulches.
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it is a fast, easy and cheap way to ruin someone's 1 hour mission. Not to mention the people that ruin conventional fights in it. Maybe the worst addition of aces high.
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I say the 163 is responsible for the decline in the bomber attempts and culture in general around the map, and especially HQ/etc.
I disagree.
The absolute majority of the time, 163's are not an issue at all. If there is a "decline (...) in general around the map", it's not the Komet's fault because it doesn't even appear. Bombers don't even bomb the strats on large maps with the 163 bases many sectors away, not even under prime conditions when the enemy strats are only 2 sectors away with a clear path of approach (as one could witness again last night on Ozkansas).
And for bombing HQ's, the 163's aren't "runing that" either. The main reason why HQ raids are undertaken so rarely is resupply. Usually The HQ is back up before the attackers have finished their "WTFG!" on country channel. Players can cope with fly one hour and being finally massacred by the enemy, but having their efforts totally made void before they typed ".ef" from the chute is the true major turn-off.
And for 163's ruining conventional fight's... how often happens that? Again, on most maps fighters don't come even close to ever see a 163. Only on some small maps (namely uterus & mindanao) frontlines come close enough, but then a player can still chose simply not to fly there. The Komet is pretty much rnage limited, ya know?
For the record, in all of 2011, the Me 163 was responsible for 0.13% of all fighter deaths (0.82% for bombers). With one in thousand fighters getting shot down by a 163, it doesn't look like a lot of fights had been ruined ;)
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The only Mosquito Mk XVI I have lost was to a Me163. I wasn't attacking the HQ either, just the city. I was intercepted when at 28,000ft and moving at 400mph. Based on that experience, I no longer attempt any attack on the city on that map as it is simply a waste of time because the Me163s will simply swarm you. With the Mosquito I at least got my bomb on target before dying, but a slower bomber at lower altitude may well have failed to do even that.
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I prefer to take the B17 where there is a 163 threat. I'll even take a fighter escort or two. True, the strats or HQ is usually resupplied before you get a couple sectors out if you are lucky enough to make it out.
Honestly, I enjoy both sides of it. I enjoy taking shots at strats and HQ. I also enjoy taking the 163 up and trying to knock bombers out with it. I have also been schooled by a 163 in a dog fight (I was in a Brewster).
Depends on the skill level of the pilot. Me for instance, when in a 163 usually run out of ammo before I knock all 3 out. I have been taken out in one pass by one also.
No need to change anything IMHO.
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/hijack
True, the strats or HQ is usually resupplied before you get a couple sectors out
HQ yes.
Strats - Only by auto resupply, and that only for factories when City is up. City itself stays down for 6 hours.
/hijack off
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Strikes me there are two issues here.
One, adjustments to add greater tactical and strategic coordination. Ideas such as zone bases, zone strats, cargo fleets, etc have been added. I would throw in maybe dumping the three nation war and going to just two nations????
Second, the perk nature of the 163. I've upped a 163 to see half a dozen or more going after bombers. If it were perked near a 262, sounds about right.
Between the two fixes we may see more strategic buff raids. Maybe.
Boo
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I am all for perk increases on both the 163 and the 262. Simple reason...I came here for the props, not the hair-dryers.
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I am all for perk increases on both the 163 and the 262. Simple reason...I came here for the props, not the hair-dryers.
Well, I came here for the hair dryers, so eliminate the perks! :noid
"I don't want to fight against XY" is not a very strong argument in terms of game balance ;) :bolt:
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Maybe the complainers haven't done what is required to quell the 163s.
I spent a few days in a row flying fighter missions over HQ to bait 163s.......which ran away after a couple of passes and bailed just outside of proximity kill range.
I have a few films of this but it would surely anger the pansy bailers if I posted them.
After a few of these, I downed HQ and enjoyed a ride home with zero 163s spotted and now take down HQs at least 4 times per tour landing all but 1 in the last 3 tours.
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To be blunt, if the bombers weren't flying at 30k in Aces High, I don't think the Me163 would be as popular around HQ. Except for a couple weirdos like Lusche, no one flies that high and you might as well be offline, particularly if you are no where near HQ.
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Is Me163 so stable and turnable aircraft in WW2?
it can out-turn the most of prop fighters and also it can fly without half-wing in AH.
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I am all for perk increases on both the 163 and the 262. Simple reason...I came here for the props, not the hair-dryers.
World war two included jets... eliminating them means you are ignoring the history of the War.
Same argument goes towards Prop driven being eliminated in the Korean War.
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Is Me163 so stable and turnable aircraft in WW2?
it can out-turn the most of prop fighters and also it can fly without half-wing in AH.
The Me163 was an extremely agile dog fighter, I would say its pretty accurate in game as in real life - except for the whole "you can dethrottle and extend your range" I don't recall if this was possible - you started the rocket and burned off your fuel then made high speed passes on bombers.
However its Agility was unmatched, especially at high / low speed.
Problem with Aces High, is the aircraft are added in game "as if they were perfected" same with tanks - for example the Tiger 2 in real life was nothing compared to on paper, sabotage was a major problem in real life - where welding was done horribly, parts were cheaply done (given the state of the war in late 1944) I have a few russian documents that practically dismiss the Tiger 2 based on the issues they found when one was captured - whether this is propaganda I don't know (Pretty sure it is). On paper the Tiger 2 is the most feared, armored vehicle during the war.
In Aces high we have a perfect Tiger 2 and Me-163, one of the reasons is Aces High has to add a certain Arcade factor to the game, If Me-163s blew up on the runway in game as real life, then people would not bother to fly it - also a newbie who just earned 50 perks and tries to fly one only to have it blow up would probably be highly disgruntled.
Secondly if we are going to start modifying planes to have this random "chance" then EVERY aircraft would need to be effected for play balancing. How many would quit if all sudden their engine had a huge loss of power while trying to cruise to a target?
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Well, I came here for the hair dryers, so eliminate the perks! :noid
"I don't want to fight against XY" is not a very strong argument in terms of game balance ;) :bolt:
World war two included jets... eliminating them means you are ignoring the history of the War.
Same argument goes towards Prop driven being eliminated in the Korean War.
Hey no arguments or justifications for statements here gents, just stating opinion as we all do here on the boards. :aok
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Throwing some more data into the thread:
% of fighter kills:
Me 163 0.13%
Me 262 0.87%
% of bomber kills:
Me 163 0.82%
Me 262 2.69%
Despite a four times higher perk cost, the Me 262 still had four times more kills in 2011 as the "cheap" Me 163
The Tempest, having the same perk price as the Me 163, had a 40% higher K/D and 3 times more kills than the Komet... :noid
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Throwing some more data into the thread:
Despite a four times higher perk cost, the Me 262 still had four times more kills in 2011 as the "cheap" Me 163
The Tempest, having the same perk price as the Me 163, had a 40% higher K/D and 3 times more kills than the Komet... :noid
So in that line of sense the Tempest should be worth twice the amount of perks then a Me-163 :)
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Or worse yet, the P38J should be perked.
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So in that line of sense the Tempest should be worth twice the amount of perks then a Me-163 :)
Hehe, well, we know it's not that simple... But I just wanted to put a few things into perspective.
Tempests are probaly "ruining" way more fights and especially capture attempts.
(Hmm... may look up the main goon killers when I've finished cleaning the kitchen ;))
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Or worse yet, the P38J should be perked.
Or HTC could just model it correctly, so that players are not longer gaming the game by using that bomber like a fighter. Historically totally incorrect! :mad: :P :bolt:
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Komet is kind of a non-issue nowadays. The days of the great bomber squads and huge HQ runs are about over. My bombing now is all tactical cause the strat game is dead.
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Komet is kind of a non-issue nowadays. The days of the great bomber squads and huge HQ runs are about over. My bombing now is all tactical cause the strat game is dead.
The Komet was never an issue to begin with.
ack-ack
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Hold it!
Your honour, the prosecution is asking for evidence in a matter which they have a personal grudge. I would like to request that his objection be stricken from the log on those grounds.
Forums: "And what grounds are those?"
Take that!
"In my experience it is usually those most deserving who won't ask", this was a statement by the prosecution previously explaining his anecdotal summary of a situation, though a different one. It shows he clearly subscribes to the idea of experience and anecdotes as solid base for an arguement. It must be noted that the defence agrees with his idea and approach to situations, but thinks that it would serve everyone best to trust other people's experience as well!
Forums: "Hmm... I see where your going with this, any comments from the prosecution?"
Seems like its your turn, how bout some music for the mood?
:D
Go go go go go!!!
There is a difference between using anecdotal evidence to put an unquantifiable argument into some perspective and using them to provide proof when hard data is readily and easiy available.
nenner :P
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I disagree.
The absolute majority of the time, 163's are not an issue at all. If there is a "decline (...) in general around the map", it's not the Komet's fault because it doesn't even appear. Bombers don't even bomb the strats on large maps with the 163 bases many sectors away, not even under prime conditions when the enemy strats are only 2 sectors away with a clear path of approach (as one could witness again last night on Ozkansas).
And for bombing HQ's, the 163's aren't "runing that" either. The main reason why HQ raids are undertaken so rarely is resupply. Usually The HQ is back up before the attackers have finished their "WTFG!" on country channel. Players can cope with fly one hour and being finally massacred by the enemy, but having their efforts totally made void before they typed ".ef" from the chute is the true major turn-off.
And for 163's ruining conventional fight's... how often happens that? Again, on most maps fighters don't come even close to ever see a 163. Only on some small maps (namely uterus & mindanao) frontlines come close enough, but then a player can still chose simply not to fly there. The Komet is pretty much rnage limited, ya know?
For the record, in all of 2011, the Me 163 was responsible for 0.13% of all fighter deaths (0.82% for bombers). With one in thousand fighters getting shot down by a 163, it doesn't look like a lot of fights had been ruined ;)
How dare you use facts :furious
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I think the 163 is fine as is - by the time you see it as a proper fighter the opposing perk eny is already super low, and if you are bombing the enemy hq, then you are already deep in enemy territory and deal with it.
plus, its a rare bird for the most part. . .
of all the things to cry about - the 163 perk cost is not one of them imo.
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It's stationed back next to the HQ and serves in it's role of HQ defender like it should. If the Capital happens to be within range of it, then so be it. Think of the Capital as Berlin then. :aok All in all, I will say leave the 163 exactly where it's at. If you fly in 163 territory, then you should be ready for them. Anytime I see a darbar in a nearby sector, or in the same sector and I'm in 163 territory, I always expect it to be one. If I get greased, so be it. "Do a better job of gunning next time...", I'll tell myself. If I scare him off or shoot him down, "Woo Hoo!". :x Still gotta fly home. :bhead :)
However, I generally try to get at least 1 or 2 other people to join me on a bomb run if I'm going to venture into 163 territory. I know going alone, my chances are slim at best if I'm intercepted by 163's.
This is almost like complaining about the neighbors dog tearing up your pant leg because you were in his yard, pissing on his gnomes. :D
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I could never understand the bomber scoring system related to strategic objects. Or strategic objects and their worth to the game culture since only Hitech and Pyro seem to be about the only people fully aware of the real impact to the overall country getting its strategic objects whacked if the monumental effort is accomplished completely. Whacking the factories and then the HQ en totality. What is the result?? 6 hours of delayed rebuilding of country wide objects? What does that mean to fighter jocks? It should really mean something if they want to win the war. 6 hours of delayed regeneration means the enemy is at your mercy supposidly to quickly grab you 20% of his feilds. But, the fighter jocks on some maps can roll the map in 3-4 hours by hanging together and rolling 20% of the 2 other countries feilds. How many bombers and how many sorties and how long per sortie does it take to fully whack the strats and HQ?
The more monumental effort seems to be spent bombing short term targets that give near emidiate feedback to the personal need for validation of the bomber pilots bombing efforts becasue airfeilds and other bases can be taken minutes after a successful drop. Rather than wasting all of the time mounting an effort against the strat and HQ possibly ended by a croch rocket. Comes down to the emidiate payoff and what a players time is worth in his own mind for the fun he wants out of this game. It sounds like bomber pilots are voting that they are not being payed enough for their time to keep playing WW2 strategic bomber force.
If you want the cities/factories and HQ bombed to achive the master affect outlined by Hitech to the targeted country, pay all of the pilots dropping the bombs not in perks but in B29's, 262's or Tempests for making the effort. Not damage points or a few perks. Pay them for the time it's costing them just to get whacked by a kid in a 50 perk croch rocket. It's the old business adage that paying people what an effort is worth will keep them making the effort becasue they are being valued and recognised for their time invested. Fighter jocks can count almost immediate results per con killed perk farming. This is a very short investment in time coupled with near continuous fun vulching the same airfeild the bomber pilot is earning a pittence for flying over. Bomber pilots have to invest copius amounts of time for a small possible return on that investment. If you pay bomber pilots for their time they will make sure to earn those rewards. Who wouldn't if they were given a perk ride for the minimum amount of damage to the target.
If you are worried about "Milk Farming" only offer it during prime time 3-4 hours a night when enough players are online to put up a defence that makes the bomber pilot earn his perk ride reward.
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I could never understand the bomber scoring system related to strategic objects. Or strategic objects and their worth to the game culture since only Hitech and Pyro seem to be about the only people fully aware of the real impact to the overall country getting its strategic objects whacked if the monumental effort is accomplished completely. Whacking the factories and then the HQ en totality. What is the result?? 6 hours of delayed rebuilding of country wide objects?
If results would be only that massive ;)
If you could manage to smash the City and the factories totally (=0%), resupplyable objects on the bases would have a maximum downtime of 2 hours. 6 hours is only the downtime of the city itself.
Of course ever since whe went to the new strats, I have never seenj anyone pull that off.
For the record we were doing a B-29 strat raid yesterday, with me going ahead and killing the City early. Result: City was down to 27%, and the factories between 30% and 70%. One of the best efforts I have seen in a long time.
45 minutes later (I wasn't even back to the strats in a Mossie XVI!), the factories had regenerated.
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So why didn't you and all of your friends keep saddeling up and going back until the job was finished? Why was this activity between yourself and your freinds an exception to normal game play rather than a rule? In WW2 the rule was to keep going back untill the job was done.
How many players would keep going back if on landing successfully they were given a choice of 1-B29, 1-Ar234, 1-Mossi16, 2-262, or 3-Tempest becasue they whacked a big portion of a factory or completely dropped the HQ? How many new bomber pilots would try at least a single sortie a night if the minimum payoff for destroying even a single building and landing successfully was 1-Tempest or 1-CHog?
Numbers in a game other than if you are in the hoard with 60 guys feeling safe are meaningless to many players. Just like this age we are in is a visual communication age. Images in the game have a stronger meaning than statistical numbers to the majority. Lusche you ever wondered why your stat numbers in raw form always cause your audience to request your excellent colored graphs? Bombing the strat and HQ is time consuming, boring, and not garunteed to pay you much for that personal expenditure of time you can never get back versus the level of fun involved. The fighter jock in the 50 perk croch rocket is getting more fun for his time invested at a better conversion rate when he whacks all of your bombers for 5 minutes effort.
So offer bomber pilots something tangable that they already value to make the effort to be a bomber force in the game. We are not in an Airforce that we have to follow orders to the death. We are in a pseudo free market exchange system. You want players to play strategic bomber airforce? Pay them what its worth for the amount of time it takes from using all of that time elsewhere in the game having fun.
These are examples and rewards based on "One" mission only.
1.) If you fly bombers all the way to an untouched HQ by yourself and completely flatten it, and survive to land at a freindly base, you will earn 3-B29.
2.) If you flatten an untouched small airfeild, FH, BH, VH, Radar, ammo, fuel, troops and land at a freindly feild you get 1-262.
3.) If you sink an untouched CV and land at a freindly feild you get 1-CHog.
4.) If you completey flatten an untouched GV base and land at a freindly feild you get 1-Tiger Tank.
5.) If you are part of a multi bomber mission that hits the strat, touched or untouched, every pilot who's bombs cause object destroyed messages in their text buffer and lands at a freindly base earns 1-262. If the mission 100% flattens an untouched strat all pilots whos bombs caused object destroyed messages in their text buffer and lands at a freindly base earns 3-B29.
6.) If you are part of a multi bomber mission that hits an untouched HQ but does not 100% destroy it, every pilot whos bombs cause object destroyed messages in their text buffer and lands at a freindly feild earns 1-Ar234 or 1-262. If the untouched HQ is 100% flattened all pilots whos bombs caused object destroyed messages in the text buffer and lands at a freindly feild earn 3-Ar234 or 3-Mossi16 or 3-262. Followup bomber raids on a partialy damaged HQ, for object damaged messages generation via your bombs and lands at a freindly base earn 1-Tempest.
Pay the defenders in perk rides.
1.) For every 2-boxes of bombers destroyed while defending the HQ or strat in the sector of the HQ or strat you earn 1-Tempest.
2.) For every 3-boxes of bombers destroyed while defending the HQ or strat in the sector of the HQ or strat you earn 1-262.
3.) Or pay fighter jocks the above any time anywhere if they land that many bomber scalps in one sortie if this reward system for bombers is implimented and bombers become a more potent factor in the game. This may also stop guys from upping bomber boxes on capped airfields.
What has more meaning?
A. You look at your fighter perks and it shows 2000?
B. You look at your Perked Ride bank account and shows you earned:
2-Tempest
23-Spit14
5-Me262
3-Ar234
3-B29
20-F4U-C
25-Tiger
C. Maybe you can earn both and convert the Perked Ride account back to Perks on a conversion rate if you need a quick 262 and your Perk Ride account is empty of 262 while your perks are below a single 262 price. Say 3-Tempest in the Perked Ride account for the instant perk price of 1-Me262. Or 5- CHog or 6-spit14.
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Don't mess with the 163 perk cost. If you wanna do anything, make it so you have about a 30% chance of exploding in a huge fireball on the runway as soon as you spawn. :O
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So why didn't you and all of your friends keep saddeling up and going back until the job was finished? Why was this activity between yourself and your freinds an exception to normal game play rather than a rule? In WW2 the rule was to keep going back untill the job was done.
Because this one mission alone took about 2 hours flight time, and for some odd reason it's difficult to convince players to work for like 4-6 hours like that. ;)
On top of that, it's difficult to "finish the job" when your results are basically cancelled out by that time you are landing. Even if we had taken down the city to 100%, which is extremely difficult to achieve even with a big number of players (actually the less was down to less than 30% because I was working it for ~3 hours when the factories were bomberd), the factories whould have stayed down for only 2 hours. Which means that we should have done that raids ad infinitum. Again, coupled with a extreme subtle effect on the arena itself, it's very hard to find any players flying B-29 sorties for hour after hour without a break...
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Then they should be payed for thier valuble personal time for getting bombs on the target and surviving to land.
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I have to correct myself, according to arena table max downtime for the factories is 3 hours.
But still, all our damage was gone before an hour had passed, even with City at less than 30%
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163's are a non issue, as Lusche explained - same applies for HQ - every time i see HQ down a dozen C-47s up to resupply it in a matter of minutes.
This is why a "new" strat system should be made.
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Heres a practical, real example which might help some people here understand this a little better.
- Imagine 163s enabled at front fields only. How would that effect the mentalities/culture of the current status quo?
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Years ago I could name a couple dozen very skilled bomber hunters. But now? There are very few. No doubt there are even fewer skilled 163 jocks nowadays.
I hardly bomb anymore and my gunnery skills have eroded bad. Still, I cant believe the overall Lack of skill by the majority of the player base in how they come into bombers. So with all this as it is it makes me even less motivated to strike deep into Das Komet ramjet territory. Its a long ways to fly just to get some kid to fly into your expensive B-29.
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- Imagine 163s enabled at front fields only. How would that effect the mentalities/culture of the current status quo?
You would see a lot of 163's in about every fight, and absolutely dominate it. Kill numbers would soar up.
Now I'm curious what your point is...
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:noid :bolt:
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You would see a lot of 163's in about every fight, and absolutely dominate it. Kill numbers would soar up.
Now I'm curious what your point is...
There is no point - other then allowing the Me163 enabled at front bases would kill the game rather quickly.