Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rich46yo on July 24, 2012, 06:38:03 PM
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Why would this airplane have the same eny as the IL2? The IL2 has far more ammo, from what I can tell guns just as good, has front MGs, carrys ords, its far better armored, and even more manueverable. The IL2 has a K/D of .99 this tour compared to the 87Gs 0.44. I think overall an eny of 30 is warrented. I expected a little more from this plane frankly.
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The IL2 has a K/D of .99 this tour compared to the 87Gs 0.44.
Too early to make any judgements like this. The 87G has just arrived. Especially K/D can take a while to stabilize, as players do tend to do a few silly things in a new ride in the first few days. And getting used to a plane and it's combat parameters can take a while.
I for one will wait until tour 151 is over before I go into analyzing usage and results.
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I expected a little more from this plane frankly.
Why?
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I think people were expecting more firepower from the guns
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I think people were expecting more firepower from the guns
Exactly. I can tell you right now they are no more effective then the IL2s NS-37s, maybe even less. Its mostly only effective against P-4s and less. Last night I couldnt even punch thru a 251. I hit the turret top of a T-34 perfectly but couldnt get a clean kill. In fact, despite good hits on tanks I was unable to make one do more then smoke. And this was only T-34s and P-4s Im talking about. Even worse, if anything, the plane flys even worse then the regular stuka. And far worse then the IL2. It wallows and almost totally indefensible.
Even in its first month, when it is supposed to at least be tried, the IL2 is getting over twice the use of it. The 87G basically sucks is what Im trying to say. My first impressions were built offline, where apparently the damage model of GVs is much less cause I cant reproduce the clean kills I got there. And yes I have film.
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This aircraft is especially ineffective against t34s.
Thats weird.
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I have only used the JU-87G off line and I was not impressed with the guns. I could not get a clean kill on any tank I shot. I ended up making the engine smoke on the M-4s and the T-34/76 but it was worthless against a Tiger. I can kill any tank in the game in an IL-2 except the Tiger-II. I have had a problem killing them but I have made the engine smoke on them.
I saw a great JU-87G German film on YouTube from the eastern front showing ground attacks by the JU-87G. Mostly on river barges but it was very cool. I kind of had that in mind when trying out our JU-87G so maybe that built up my expectations a bit too high. I will still use the IL-2 in the game for sure. The only reason to use the JU-87G would be if the ENY was higher than the IL-2 and I couldn't get the IL but that is not the case.
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I too am finding it difficult to kill tanks in the 87g even after many clean hits at the seemingly ideal angles.
If there is someone that is finding great success in the 87g please share your findings and methods. Thanks. :salute
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I killed buffs in it at 24,000 feet.
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This aircraft is especially ineffective against t34s.
Thats weird.
:rofl
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:huh :huh :huh First sortie and i killed at least.....3 trees, 6 bushes and 2000 lbs of dirt! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
:huh :huh :huh First sortie and i killed at least.....3 trees, 6 bushes and 2000 lbs of dirt! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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This aircraft is especially ineffective against t34s.
Thats weird.
Come in low and hit the T-34 in the tracks. That is the best way I've been able to kill them offline. M4 Shermans die easy from such side shots, and unlike the T-34 you don't have to limit yourself to the tracks.
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Use a shallow dive approach, about 20-30 degrees and aim for the engine compartment on the T-34 and it's dead, or you can aim for the top of the turret and the T-34 will also die. The tracks aren't the only place where the T-34 is vulnerable to the Ju 87G-2.
ack-ack
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Come in low and hit the T-34 in the tracks. That is the best way I've been able to kill them offline. M4 Shermans die easy from such side shots, and unlike the T-34 you don't have to limit yourself to the tracks.
Karnak I think the problem is it cant be done in the game. Or, its very difficult. I checked the stats on this plane and much better tank killers then I havnt been killing much besides the P-4. Not that anyone is killing much in it at all.
The remaining German guns were all adaptations of ground guns. The first was the 37 mm BK 3,7, a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun firing the same 37x263B ammunition. This meant that it was bulky, heavy and slow-firing by comparison with the NS-37, for example. It also remained clip-fed, with a maximum capacity of just 12 rounds. It mainly fired Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
Now a T34/76 is basically a tank with 40mm thick armor. Yes the front is sloped and is 70mm thick but everywhere else its 40mm and flat except for parts of the turret top which are 20mm thick. The "85s" are 5mm to 10mm thicker except for the top. My attacks were at angles anywheres from 60% to 100% coming in flat from the side and trying to punch thru the side plate. The only luck I had was two perfectly placed shots to the 20mm turret top. And even that didnt kill it but made it smoke. I didnt even get the kill cause I got kilt by a fighter right after.
The IL2s NS-37's 37x195 ammunition is quoted as penetrating 48mm / 500m / 90 degrees. Ive cleanly killed every tank in the game, except Tiger-ll, with 2 well placed rounds from the IL2. In either plane I dont even shoot until Im 300 meters from the tank, often less. The BK-37s of the 87G are performing poorly. It handles poorly. Hans Rudel himself claimed 519 tank kills and he doesnt strike me as a Liar. And he wasnt alone http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=41684&page=32 This was an effective tank killer. I trust Luftwaffe claims more then any other AF in the war.
Something is not adding up here. The 87G is coming out the gate a Hangar Queen.
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You can fly up to the side of a T34 at about 100ft alt. From 300 or closer, one trigger tap and if your APCR (Tungsten hard core)rounds hit under the skirt and between the top wheel gaps. The T34 goes boom. Rudel probably didn't have to contend with german Wibel protecting russian T34 while he was developing his tactics.
You can test this offline by replacing one of the drones with a T34 out on the runway.
Both the BK3.7 and NS-37 could not begin to penetrate armor effectively outside of 300M. But, then the Wirbel drivers are counting on that with their shortened Icon range.
Look at how very close this Ju87 is to these russian tanks, shooting at their sides. And the firing is in single taps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOXrfBZoLE&feature=related
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I think people were expecting more firepower from the guns
I have made several once shot kills with it....don't remember ever doing that in the Il-2....I don't know exactly why, but it seems easier to stay on target. :rock
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Since we're talking CAS...Anybody else get annoyed at the ability of tanks to shoot down planes with the main turret? Don't get me wrong, I've got more kills of planes in an M4 than the other way around, just doesn't seem right...
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It seems the damage model offline is different then online. Its easier to kill the tanks offline.
I know it used to be like that. Can anyone verify this?
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We have used the offline mode to test and find bugs in tank armor in cooperation with Pyro. Hard to do that when the damage model is different ;)
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Since we're talking CAS...Anybody else get annoyed at the ability of tanks to shoot down planes with the main turret? Don't get me wrong, I've got more kills of planes in an M4 than the other way around, just doesn't seem right...
people in the planes aren't doing it right :)
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I notice in the films the guns shoot out of sequence, if I recall ours are linked or in sequence with the other.
Also, it seems only one gun is firing in a couple of those videos, independent fire control, theo ther gun jammed?... hmmmm
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We have used the offline mode to test and find bugs in tank armor in cooperation with Pyro. Hard to do that when the damage model is different ;)
Is it different? Right now in this tour the T34/85 has killed 115 87Gs while the 87G has killed 41 T34/85s. :headscratch: The *87G has killed one Tiger-1 while the Tiger has killed 5 87Gs. The M4A3 has killed 18 Gs while the Gs have killed only 10 M4s. The T34/76 has gotten 47 87Gs yet its only been kilt by the "G" 16 times. It appears Aces High either got the modeling wrong or the war wrong. Cause its the tanks hunting the 87Gs. Not the other way around.
Of course its easier to shoot a sitting tank with nobody else around. But I seem to remember the damage model being different offline. Maybe Im wrong. But so far I havnt been able to reproduce online kills of Tanks, other then P-4, that I have offline. And yesterday I made some hits on a Tiger & T34 offline that left me scratching my head why it didnt blow. Then again maybe theres no difference. Maybe the BK-3.7s are underpowered. Cause they, and their superior ammo, caused havoc in the war considering the low numbers produced. :salute
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I wonder how many of those kills involved the gun(s) on the tanks and how many involved the Ju87G-2 slamming itself into the ground next to the tank or into the tank itself while trying to shoot the tank?
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I wonder how many of those kills involved the gun(s) on the tanks and how many involved the Ju87G-2 slamming itself into the ground next to the tank or into the tank itself while trying to shoot the tank?
That would explain much of it. That and poor attack angles. Im still left wondering why the tungsten rounds arent doing better. I have a few days off coming up and will film more and will have time to play. :salute
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I wonder how many of those kills involved the gun(s) on the tanks and how many involved the Ju87G-2 slamming itself into the ground next to the tank
While I read this, an interesting statistical snippet comes to my mind.
You'd think that bombing tanks is easy... climb above them, then drop one or more 1000 pounders on them. Piece of cake, no risk for the JABO.
But then...
In 2011, the P-51D got credit for 11.438 tanks. Amazingly, the tanks got 7.167 kills of the P-51D as well. A meagre K/D ratio of 1.6 only.... :uh oh
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The only tank that really gives me any issue is the Tiger. You have to have a pretty flat angle against it to do the job, but oh boy, will it do the job nicely when you do. :D Of course, I've only tested this offline. Haven't been lucky enough to run into one yet. In offline testing, I find that the King Tiger is even easier to knock out than the Tiger. In both cases, I attacked their flanks. It took me 2 taps of the fire key to knock out the turret on a KT, coming in at a shallow angle. 3 passes total as on my second pass I hit the other side of the turret. On the Tiger it took me 2 passes, one on each side. The 1st pass I only landed one (between hull and turret), the other's ricocheted. I came in with a little less angle against it than I did with the KT, but still fairly high. On my 2nd pass, I was literally just feet from the ground, landed a nice shot between the top of the tracks and the skirt-ish bit. Turret went flying. All these shots that I made were around 500-400, which is about where I have my convergence set on my guns. I usually only take 2 shots before breaking off for my next run.
Reason I find it easier to knock out the KT is because I don't have to have such a flat angle against it as I do with the Tiger. Means more room for correction and evasion. :aok
For the T-34's I just use the same spots on it that I did before when I used the 2D. From behind and into the spot behind the turret. If you come in at a angle to their sides, it'll knock them out real fast. Just gotta watch out for their guns as you will be WELL within their gun elevation limit. :)
For me, the G-2 is now my Primary tank killer, which use to be the 2D. The only thing that keeps throwing me off is that when I flew the 2D, I'd tap the "B" key for my shots. Sometimes, I do that in the G-2....doesn't work out too well. :o :bhead
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Angle of impact is everything when trying to bust tanks. Keep that in mind.
A player can go in blazing away with the Il-2 and hope for a good enough hit, or take their time with the Hurri D or Ju87G and get 2 solid hits at the point of convergence using 1, 2, or at most 3 shots per pass at precise ranges.
The Hurri IID is still the best platform in the game to bust tanks with guns, imo. The debate on the guns is a moot point as all three have well enough AP ability to get the job done well enough. In terms of speed, climb, maneuverability, dive stability, etc, the Hurricane IID wins hands down. The only superior thing the IL-2 really has worth mentioning armor. The entire plane is able to withstand more punishment from ground fire, most notably the wirby. Although when the threat is from tanks that really only offers a minimal advantage due to the inherent lack of destructive capability of the pintle mounted MG's.
Give it time, the ENY of the Ju88G will be lower than the Hurri IID soon enough.
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Give it time, the ENY of the Ju88G
You know more than we do? :noid
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I notice in the films the guns shoot out of sequence, if I recall ours are linked or in sequence with the other.
Also, it seems only one gun is firing in a couple of those videos, independent fire control, theo ther gun jammed?... hmmmm
It looks like 2 types are firing to me,,, a hs129 and a stuka. You see singles and doubles in that film.
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You know more than we do? :noid
I wish.
That waz a mispirnt. :D
or maybe... HTC is going to release the Ju88G tank buster with the 88mm??? Poll maybe???
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Here Volron http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsin.php?playername=Volron&kcnt=6&selectTour=LWTour150&pindex=124
Thats what youv kiled with the 87G online. You havnt even killed a tank yet. Heres what Ive killed, playing only a few hours with it that I considered a total failure http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsin.php?playername=Rich54&kcnt=10&selectTour=LWTour150&pindex=124 I actually smoked one T-34 but died before getting credit.
Obviously youv killed nothing online. So again I ask does anyone know "definately" if the offline damage model is different then online? Also, and I havnt checked, is F3 available offline? The stats dont support the 87G as being the premier tank killer in the game :salute
The only tank that really gives me any issue is the Tiger. You have to have a pretty flat angle against it to do the job, but oh boy, will it do the job nicely when you do. :D Of course, I've only tested this offline. Haven't been lucky enough to run into one yet. In offline testing, I find that the King Tiger is even easier to knock out than the Tiger. In both cases, I attacked their flanks. It took me 2 taps of the fire key to knock out the turret on a KT, coming in at a shallow angle. 3 passes total as on my second pass I hit the other side of the turret. On the Tiger it took me 2 passes, one on each side. The 1st pass I only landed one (between hull and turret), the other's ricocheted. I came in with a little less angle against it than I did with the KT, but still fairly high. On my 2nd pass, I was literally just feet from the ground, landed a nice shot between the top of the tracks and the skirt-ish bit. Turret went flying. All these shots that I made were around 500-400, which is about where I have my convergence set on my guns. I usually only take 2 shots before breaking off for my next run.
Reason I find it easier to knock out the KT is because I don't have to have such a flat angle against it as I do with the Tiger. Means more room for correction and evasion. :aok
For the T-34's I just use the same spots on it that I did before when I used the 2D. From behind and into the spot behind the turret. If you come in at a angle to their sides, it'll knock them out real fast. Just gotta watch out for their guns as you will be WELL within their gun elevation limit. :)
For me, the G-2 is now my Primary tank killer, which use to be the 2D. The only thing that keeps throwing me off is that when I flew the 2D, I'd tap the "B" key for my shots. Sometimes, I do that in the G-2....doesn't work out too well. :o :bhead
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I'll go ahead and point out something that you obviously missed about my post...
The only tank that really gives me any issue is the Tiger. You have to have a pretty flat angle against it to do the job, but oh boy, will it do the job nicely when you do. :D Of course, I've only tested this offline. Haven't been lucky enough to run into one yet. In offline testing, I find that the King Tiger is even easier to knock out than the Tiger. In both cases, I attacked their flanks. It took me 2 taps of the fire key to knock out the turret on a KT, coming in at a shallow angle. 3 passes total as on my second pass I hit the other side of the turret. On the Tiger it took me 2 passes, one on each side. The 1st pass I only landed one (between hull and turret), the other's ricocheted. I came in with a little less angle against it than I did with the KT, but still fairly high. On my 2nd pass, I was literally just feet from the ground, landed a nice shot between the top of the tracks and the skirt-ish bit. Turret went flying. All these shots that I made were around 500-400, which is about where I have my convergence set on my guns. I usually only take 2 shots before breaking off for my next run.
Reason I find it easier to knock out the KT is because I don't have to have such a flat angle against it as I do with the Tiger. Means more room for correction and evasion. :aok
For the T-34's I just use the same spots on it that I did before when I used the 2D. From behind and into the spot behind the turret. If you come in at a angle to their sides, it'll knock them out real fast. Just gotta watch out for their guns as you will be WELL within their gun elevation limit. :)
For me, the G-2 is now my Primary tank killer, which use to be the 2D. The only thing that keeps throwing me off is that when I flew the 2D, I'd tap the "B" key for my shots. Sometimes, I do that in the G-2....doesn't work out too well. :o :bhead
Now people will probably click the link to my sorties in the G-2 and see, according to you and I'll quote, "Obviously youv killed nothing online.". To make it easier though, I'll copy/paste the results from that link...
Late War Tour 150
Kills by Volron in a
Ju 87G-2 by model type
Model Type Kills Percent
LVTA2 1 16.667
LVTA4 1 16.667
P-51D 1 16.667
Panzer IV H 1 16.667
Wirbelwind 2 33.333
6 Kills
Late War Tour 150
Kills by Volron in a
Ju 87G-2 by player name
Player Name Killed Percent
ACCA 1 16.667
Burger 1 16.667
deadmann 2 33.333
FBvortex 1 16.667
Texeco 1 16.667
6 Kills
Copyright © 2012, HiTech Creations, Inc.
HiTech Creations, Inc.
I believe you also mentioned that, and I'll quote again, "You havnt even killed a tank yet.". Yep...Panzer H was actually a Brewster. For some reason the statistics screwed up and mislabeled it. I'll have to ask HiTech to check that.
You see, I haven't been going out of my way to hunt tanks, or I would have more kills/deaths (probably more deaths :)). The times I have gone hunting, I keep running into some wirbel's or, if there ARE tanks, friendlies in the area grease them before I get there. The 1 T-34 I encountered, I augered trying to hit because I pushed a bad setup. Doesn't change the fact that, and I'll be sure it's nice and visible for you this time around; For me, the G-2 is now my primary tank killer.
Don't like it? Too bad. :neener:
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I believe you also mentioned that, and I'll quote again, "You havnt even killed a tank yet.". Yep...Panzer H was actually a Brewster. For some reason the statistics screwed up and mislabeled it. I'll have to ask HiTech to check that.
Lol, you do that. But if you are, actually, the only one the stats have done that to, then I'll give you the one tank. :rolleyes:
You see, I haven't been going out of my way to hunt tanks, or I would have more kills/deaths (probably more deaths ). The times I have gone hunting, I keep running into some wirbel's or, if there ARE tanks, friendlies in the area grease them before I get there. The 1 T-34 I encountered, I augered trying to hit because I pushed a bad setup. Doesn't change the fact that, and I'll be sure it's nice and visible for you this time around; For me, the G-2 is now my primary tank killer.
Well if you dont "go out of your way to hunt tanks" in the 87G, and "never actually killed one tank in the airplane", then why the four paragraphs about killing tanks in the 87G? Normally ones "primary tank killer would be a aircraft you actually killed a tank in". Think about it? Its like saying your best fighter vs fighter is the Spit after never having killed another fighter in it.
Don't like it? Too bad.
I have no feelings either way. It was just a whole lot of typing as tho an expert with the air coming out the wrong way. But dont feel to bad. The tank hunting game is about over. With two maps and far more players you could almost always find tank hunting. Now? Well last night? I was able to find one P-4, that I killed. Now your team is lucky to even have a few tank spawns into airbases period. And your even luckier to actually find a tank. And your even luckier to survive long enough in these flying bathtubs to make an attack. And even luckier to survive the flak without F3 and with visibility cut so short. And if your real,real lucky the BK 3,7s will actualy kill something. Maybe its time for the left hand to play the right hand. Its double the monthly$ but at least you'll have tanks to "try" and kill.
The only tank that really gives me any issue is the Tiger. You have to have a pretty flat angle against it to do the job, but oh boy, will it do the job nicely when you do. Of course, I've only tested this offline. Haven't been lucky enough to run into one yet. In offline testing, I find that the King Tiger is even easier to knock out than the Tiger. In both cases, I attacked their flanks. It took me 2 taps of the fire key to knock out the turret on a KT, coming in at a shallow angle. 3 passes total as on my second pass I hit the other side of the turret. On the Tiger it took me 2 passes, one on each side. The 1st pass I only landed one (between hull and turret), the other's ricocheted. I came in with a little less angle against it than I did with the KT, but still fairly high. On my 2nd pass, I was literally just feet from the ground, landed a nice shot between the top of the tracks and the skirt-ish bit. Turret went flying. All these shots that I made were around 500-400, which is about where I have my convergence set on my guns. I usually only take 2 shots before breaking off for my next run.
Reason I find it easier to knock out the KT is because I don't have to have such a flat angle against it as I do with the Tiger. Means more room for correction and evasion.
For the T-34's I just use the same spots on it that I did before when I used the 2D. From behind and into the spot behind the turret. If you come in at a angle to their sides, it'll knock them out real fast. Just gotta watch out for their guns as you will be WELL within their gun elevation limit.
For me, the G-2 is now my Primary tank killer, which use to be the 2D. The only thing that keeps throwing me off is that when I flew the 2D, I'd tap the "B" key for my shots. Sometimes, I do that in the G-2....doesn't work out too well.
Ya just need to actually kill a tank with an aircraft in order to name it your "primary" ;) Thats all Im saying.
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I saw enough. The reason the 87G is the "premier offline tank killer" is cause we have F3 offline. Which we'll never get online again. Online its a turd with wings.
So what was the point of even modeling the thing?
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I saw enough. The reason the 87G is the "premier offline tank killer" is cause we have F3 offline. Which we'll never get online again. Online its a turd with wings.
So what was the point of even modeling the thing?
How does F3 help kill tanks offline?
I'm serious, I do all my testing from inside the cockpit.
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How does F3 help kill tanks offline?
I'm serious, I do all my testing from inside the cockpit.
Easy, as you well must know. Being in F3 allows you to line up straight on the tank and then dive at a more vertical angle while having to use less rudder for correction.
Why else do you think tank kills dived online when F3 was taken away? They went, from tour 135's 6445 kills http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/pkd.php?type=0&selectTour=LWTour136&pindex=50 to 136's 2006 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/pkd.php?type=0&selectTour=LWTour136&pindex=50.
Just take a look at percentage of tanks kills before and after F3 was taken.
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Based on offline experience only, I would venture a guess that impact angle is the main culprit here.
The BK 3,7 should be far and away the best gun when hitting relatively flat. But at anything above 30 degrees (IIRC), penetration drops of dramatically, and the round has a tendancy to bounce.
Now how would penetration affect killing a tank? If it penetrates, shouldn't it be the same, you might ask? No. In AH, the damage done to a vehicle clearly decreases with the ammount of penetration leeway you had. That is to say, if you could have penetrated an extra 28mm of armor, you will do more damage than if you could have penetrated an extra 13mm of armor.
Look at the Panzer IV's 75mm vs the Panther's. Both projectiles are of comparable size, yet the Panther will one-shot tanks far more often.
So, either come in from almost right above them, or come in from a relatively flat angle.
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Let me guess. Your not using F3 offline either? :rofl
Based on offline experience only, I would venture a guess that impact angle is the main culprit here.
The BK 3,7 should be far and away the best gun when hitting relatively flat. But at anything above 30 degrees (IIRC), penetration drops of dramatically, and the round has a tendancy to bounce.
Now how would penetration affect killing a tank? If it penetrates, shouldn't it be the same, you might ask? No. In AH, the damage done to a vehicle clearly decreases with the ammount of penetration leeway you had. That is to say, if you could have penetrated an extra 28mm of armor, you will do more damage than if you could have penetrated an extra 13mm of armor.
Look at the Panzer IV's 75mm vs the Panther's. Both projectiles are of comparable size, yet the Panther will one-shot tanks far more often.
So, either come in from almost right above them, or come in from a relatively flat angle.
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Let me guess. Your not using F3 offline either? :rofl
Nope. But just about the first 2 full years of playing the game, about the only thing I did was bomb.
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Based on offline experience only, I would venture a guess that impact angle is the main culprit here.
The BK 3,7 should be far and away the best gun when hitting relatively flat. But at anything above 30 degrees (IIRC), penetration drops of dramatically, and the round has a tendancy to bounce.
Now how would penetration affect killing a tank? If it penetrates, shouldn't it be the same, you might ask? No. In AH, the damage done to a vehicle clearly decreases with the ammount of penetration leeway you had. That is to say, if you could have penetrated an extra 28mm of armor, you will do more damage than if you could have penetrated an extra 13mm of armor.
Look at the Panzer IV's 75mm vs the Panther's. Both projectiles are of comparable size, yet the Panther will one-shot tanks far more often.
So, either come in from almost right above them, or come in from a relatively flat angle.
The damage done to a tank once the projectile defeats the armor is based on 2 things: the weight of the projectile and the speed of which it performs the second round of whoop' axx.
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Thanks, was having trouble putting it into words. IDK why, but just couldn't think of how to phrase how the guns work in AH.
But yeah, if they're the same weight, the projectiile going faster after penetrating armor will do more damage. Although in my defense, I was technically correct. The faster projectile would be capable of penetrating more armor than the slower projectile, and hence the faster one would do more damage when firing at the same thickness of armor.
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Penetration is not a garentee of damage tho. As with modern ammo (as well as ww2), a round or shell loses a great deal of lethality if it simply passes in one side of an object and out the other. Especially when given the nature of a tank ( or other enclosed structure), a round is a great more lethal to something inhabitants if it penetrates one side, and either explodes inside, or splinters off.
Now back to the subject of the g2. I have never been good at killing tanks with plane cannons (in fact i dont recall ever destroying one outright with il2 or hurri. But in a couple of sorties with the g2 yesterday i managed to kill over half a dozen. The key is to come in tree top level, and with very little angle of attack, squeeze off a few rounds from d600 or less. I manage to take out several panzers, t34s and m4s in this nature. Just aim for broadside shots or rear ones and youll have little trouble finding effect with 4-6 rounds.
As purely a tank killer, these guns are much more effective then anything else in the plane set, but the plane is virtually target practice for enemy ftrs. Fly it with care, get used to dodging trees, and youll see how deadly it can be.
-covernow
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True, however that doesn't nessicarily appear to be the case in AH. A 75mm (any of them) to the side of a Panzer IV at close range will kill it in one shot. But it will take multiple 37mm rounds from the M8 to kill one, regardless of hit location.
And I would say the IL-2 will still be the most effective tank killer, soley because it can pack around 100 rounds per gun for the 37mm.
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And I would say the IL-2 will still be the most effective tank killer, soley because it can pack around 100 rounds per gun for the 37mm.
Like i said it just seemed much easier to me. The il2 guns feel feeble, and the steep aoa usually find me hitting a tree :(
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Like i said it just seemed much easier to me. The il2 guns feel feeble, and the steep aoa usually find me hitting a tree :(
Don't go steep AoA on anything but a T-34 or a tank backed up against cover. When possible, i prefer a low-angle approach on the back of Panzer IV's and the side of M4's. Just keep your eyes peeled and make sure he doesn't have his turret pointed at you, or its gonna be a short flight.
If you want, I'm sure I or someone else could post vid of how to work an IL-2.
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Jeez long ago someone told me to come in steep with il2s XD. Im gonna be very annoyed if ive been doing it wrong these years :(. No wonder i never got a tank kill with them.
Oh well, STUKAS ARE STILL SEXIER!!! :joystick:
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As I mentioned, offline testing. Since I keep having bad luck with tanks spawning to us (Rook/times I'm on), and the rarity of the Tiger and King Tiger in general, I did testing offline. I have only ran into 1 T-34 since the G-2 was released, which I augured pushing a bad angle, and I haven't seen any Tiger's or KT's. I'm having bad luck in my hunts. :bhead The G-2 is the only thing I've been flying to date (in terms of tank killing. I do have 1 sortie in the 25H, which is another plane I use for tank killing, but I did not use it for that purpose). That in it's own would indicate that it's my primary tank killer now. Just because I'm just having crap luck in getting me some tanks, doesn't mean it's not my primary tank killer. :aok
I do wonder if there isn't some slight variance between offline and online though. A while back I did a test with the Il-2 using the 23mm guns and found that you can destroy a Panzer with them, it took about half my ammo, but I managed. :) I got lucking one night and ran into a Panzer when I upped an Il-2 with the 23's. He wasn't moving and he even ignored me and kept shelling the town. So I got the angles I used offline (which would normally have gotten me blasted by other tankers). I pumped all my ammo into him, nothing. So yeah, I wonder if there isn't a slight variance between offline and online. :headscratch: I did this before the Panzer was updated mind you, so it may be different now.
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Last night I couldnt even punch thru a 251.
I have been expecting HTC would find an armor bug with the 251 for a long time now. Even a glancing blow at 3,835,300 ft lbs is going to have some effect on a vehicle that weighs a mere 8 tons. Sadly no. :eek:
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Now back to the subject of the g2. I have never been good at killing tanks with plane cannons (in fact i dont recall ever destroying one outright with il2 or hurri. But in a couple of sorties with the g2 yesterday i managed to kill over half a dozen. The key is to come in tree top level, and with very little angle of attack, squeeze off a few rounds from d600 or less. I manage to take out several panzers, t34s and m4s in this nature. Just aim for broadside shots or rear ones and youll have little trouble finding effect with 4-6 rounds.
-covernow
Thats very difficult cause the tank MGs alone, let alone cannon, will kill you in the 87G. Heres how it was used historically in war http://youtu.be/ccOXrfBZoLE As you can see The Germans didnt even come in at that steep an angle but killed many tanks with them. The 87G guns in the game are underpowered.
Condor if yu get a chance can you get some video on your tactics? :salute
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Thats very difficult cause the tank MGs alone, let alone cannon, will kill you in the 87G. Heres how it was used historically in war http://youtu.be/ccOXrfBZoLE As you can see The Germans didnt even come in at that steep an angle but killed many tanks with them. The 87G guns in the game are underpowered.
Condor if yu get a chance can you get some video on your tactics? :salute
Ill see about getting some. Hopefully i can find another v spawn in the ma that doesnt have ftrs swarming it.
-Covernow
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I think part of the problem here is too many people think they are nascent Rudels and when the tanks aren't falling like chaff to them something is wrong with the guns.
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I think part of the problem here is too many people think they are nascent Rudels and when the tanks aren't falling like chaff to them something is wrong with the guns.
Yep, they expected the 37mm Flak 18 cannons to be one hit killers no matter where you hit the tank at and then start crying about how underpowered the cannons are and now removing F3 has made their life harder for them.
ack-ack
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Yep, they expected the 37mm Flak 18 cannons to be one hit killers no matter where you hit the tank at and then start crying about how underpowered the cannons are and now removing F3 has made their life harder for them.
ack-ack
Of course. How could there be pilot error in a video game? If i point and shoot it should die :joystick: :bhead
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(http://jokesprank.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Fool_Fishing_cartoon.gif)
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Of course. How could there be pilot error in a video game? If i point and shoot it should die :joystick: :bhead
They are hitting 20mm to 25mm top plate with an advanced Tungsten AP projectile. They are supposed to be one volley killers.
As for F3? Well the flight game became a tank game. Go sit and camp, or fling from thousands of meters. Cant have tank killing airplanes, around airfields, interfering. :lol BTW whats your game name condor11?
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They are hitting 20mm to 25mm top plate with an advanced Tungsten AP projectile. They are supposed to be one volley killers.
And if you're coming in at too shallow or steep of an angle, those rounds are just wasted. The problem isn't with the cannons.
ack-ack
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Jeez long ago someone told me to come in steep with il2s XD. Im gonna be very annoyed if ive been doing it wrong these years :(. No wonder i never got a tank kill with them.
Oh well, STUKAS ARE STILL SEXIER!!! :joystick:
If you're new to tank-busting (and it sounds like you're newish) its better to do what works untill you're ready to move onto more difficult stuff.
Coming in at a high angle, and hitting the top armor is most effective in terms of hits needed to destroy a tank. However, its more difficult to do, and (depending on the angle) offers a smaller target. So you'll be aiming at a smaller target with a method thats more difficult to do. Result? Fewer rounds on target, more rounds expended, more difficulty in destroying the tank.
And if you're coming in at too shallow or steep of an angle, those rounds are just wasted. The problem isn't with the cannons.
ack-ack
Ok, so people keep saying "its just the AoA", but is it just the AoA? I mean can these cannons infact one-shot (well, two; a round fired from each gun) a Panzer?
Because if they physically can't..... well, then I think a change in the GV damage model would be a fine addition to the wishlist.
I'll be trying it offline, would appreciate it if someone could try it in the TA or MA's.
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Ok, so people keep saying "its just the AoA", but is it just the AoA? I mean can these cannons infact one-shot (well, two; a round fired from each gun) a Panzer?
Because if they physically can't..... well, then I think a change in the GV damage model would be a fine addition to the wishlist.
Yes they can, provided you come in at the correct dive angle. Anything less than 20 degrees or more than 30 degrees isn't going to be very effective. So far no one has offered any credible evidence there is anything wrong with the cannons. Those that say the cannons are underpowered, it would be nice to see their films because it will most likely show they are not coming in at the correct dive angle and are either in too shallow or steep of an angle. Player's have to remember that these aren't some magic one kill cannons no matter what angle you come in at or where you hit the tank. It has a relatively small window where the cannons are effective, work outside of that window and your rounds won't be as effective.
ack-ack
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Yes they can, provided you come in at the correct dive angle. Anything less than 20 degrees or more than 30 degrees isn't going to be very effective. ack-ack
Why less than 20 degrees? Wouldn't a hit at 90 degrees on the top of the tank be ideal?
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Why less than 20 degrees? Wouldn't a hit at 90 degrees on the top of the tank be ideal?
From the patch notes.
This tank killing variant features 2 37mm cannons firing high velocity tungsten core ammunition. This ammunition has tremendous penetration capability for its caliber, but that capability falls off sharply past a 20 or 30 degree impact angle.
I just think people expected more out of the gun and disappointed that it's not the one shot killer they thought it would be.
ack-ack
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From the patch notes.
I just think people expected more out of the gun and disappointed that it's not the one shot killer they thought it would be.
ack-ack
I think you might have misinterpreted the patch notes sir. The way I took it, it means that at angles above around 20-30 degrees, the penetration drops off quickly.
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From the patch notes.
This ammunition has tremendous penetration capability for its caliber, but that capability falls off sharply past a 20 or 30 degree impact angle.
That doesn't mean the best penetration is between 20 and 30 degrees. Read it as past 20 to 30 degrees.. 0 degrees (or 90, depending how you look at it), is still the optimum angle.
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That doesn't mean the best penetration is between 20 and 30 degrees. Read it as past 20 to 30 degrees.. 0 degrees (or 90, depending how you look at it), is still the optimum angle.
As it is with any AP round. The closer the impact is to 90° the better the AP round performs thanks to that whole energy transfer physics thingy. The further away the angle gets from 90° (or closer to a 179° impact) the more apt the AP round will glance off.
FWIW, keep in mind that at long ranges when the rounds are being lobbed in, the impact point is closer to 90° on sloped armor than many people thing. :aok
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i will say that i hit a wirb at almost ) degrees wheels almost hit dirt and well under trees that i put 1 shot/2 rounds in the side (under turret above tracks, what sprits and where they were going looked liked) and it didnt die and kept shooting then i got kills after a gver shot it.... would think it would just die
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Again, here are the relitively shallow angles the 87G was actually used in http://youtu.be/ccOXrfBZoLE . Angles very easy to reproduce in the game.
Last night I did it again, repeated attacks on a sherman while watching the rounds bounce off. One volley in particular stank to high heavan but I'd forgotton to hit the record button. After a few attempts I upped an IL2 and killed it in one pass. I thought I had film of it but it was Rav3N if you want to check under Rich54 's stats.
Heres film, the first few passes against the sherman http://youtu.be/H27kRzaIfxk Heres a perfect hit to the rear plate of the Sherman, point blank, at almost no % of angle (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/sherm-1.jpg) Heres another hit, at a higher angle, you see the yellow hit spright ofrom the right gun to the low right of the tank. (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/sherm-2.jpg)
Heres the 2nd part of the video against an unk tank. I think it was a P-4. Here you see two perfect hits to the side (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/unk-1.jpg)
Here you see one hit to the rear,side,bottom (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/unk-2.jpg)
I could post more if I cared to edit more but i didnt really even have time for this. Since I'll probably be leaving the game, non-87G related, theres no point to. But I'll say this, everyone Ive talked to in the game has admitted to me the airplane is a dog. Those in the forum who defend it in the forum have very little on-line experience with it, and even lesser kills. The snail himself, one of the finest players in the game, has only kill 2 sherm/75s and nothing tougher. The rest Panzers and lesser's, and only 7 GVs total.
IE: The plane is already a hangar Queen. An airplane, "chosen by the players in a vote", in its first month of play, only has 1/2 the K/Ds of the IL2.
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The snail himself, one of the finest players in the game, has only kill 2 sherm/75s and nothing tougher.
Because I fly tank busters strictly in airfield defensive missions, where the great majority of tanks showing up are nothing stronger than m4/75 and Panzer IVs. I can't kill what I do not encounter. My 19 kills in the Hurri D show the same killing profile That doesn't say anything about the Ju-87G's ability.
The plane is already a hangar Queen. An airplane, "chosen by the players in a vote", in its first month of play, only has 1/2 the K/Ds of the IL2.
Being a "hangar queen" is not about K/D. It's about being used or not. And since the Ju-87G was introduced, the Il-2 had 1684 kills and deaths, the Ju-87G 2598.
And by the way: The Ju-87G was not chosen by a vote. :)
ADDENDUM:
On the topic of K/D - global K/D includes all kills and deaths, including flak vehicles and fighter, against both of them the Ju-87 has naturally much worse cards than the Il-2
The true K/D vs tanks so far:
Il-2 1.36
Ju-87G 0.92
Hurricane IID 0.77
Suddenly the alleged "fail" doesn't look that spectacular anymore... ;)
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Again, here are the relitively shallow angles the 87G was actually used in http://youtu.be/ccOXrfBZoLE . Angles very easy to reproduce in the game.
Last night I did it again, repeated attacks on a sherman while watching the rounds bounce off. One volley in particular stank to high heavan but I'd forgotton to hit the record button. After a few attempts I upped an IL2 and killed it in one pass. I thought I had film of it but it was Rav3N if you want to check under Rich54 's stats.
Heres film, the first few passes against the sherman http://youtu.be/H27kRzaIfxk Heres a perfect hit to the rear plate of the Sherman, point blank, at almost no % of angle (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/sherm-1.jpg) Heres another hit, at a higher angle, you see the yellow hit spright ofrom the right gun to the low right of the tank. (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/sherm-2.jpg)
Heres the 2nd part of the video against an unk tank. I think it was a P-4. Here you see two perfect hits to the side (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/unk-1.jpg)
Here you see one hit to the rear,side,bottom (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/unk-2.jpg)
I could post more if I cared to edit more but i didnt really even have time for this. Since I'll probably be leaving the game, non-87G related, theres no point to. But I'll say this, everyone Ive talked to in the game has admitted to me the airplane is a dog. Those in the forum who defend it in the forum have very little on-line experience with it, and even lesser kills. The snail himself, one of the finest players in the game, has only kill 2 sherm/75s and nothing tougher. The rest Panzers and lesser's, and only 7 GVs total.
As I said I flew the JU-87G off line but had about the same luck killing tanks as you did here in your film. While I can kill most tanks with one pass in the IL-2.
IE: The plane is already a hangar Queen. An airplane, "chosen by the players in a vote", in its first month of play, only has 1/2 the K/Ds of the IL2.
Just because a plane win a vote it don't mean it was the best one. Most voters are totally uninformed when they vote both here and in real life LOL.
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Because I fly tank busters strictly in airfield defensive missions, where the great majority of tanks showing up are nothing stronger than m4/75 and Panzer IVs. I can't kill what I do not encounter. My 19 kills in the Hurri D show the same killing profile That doesn't say anything about the Ju-87G's ability.
We all fly them like that Lusche. ;) I see a lot of T-34s. And the reason why the Hurri-D doesnt have much T34 kills is cause its not very good at killing them.
Being a "hangar queen" is not about K/D. It's about being used or not. And since the Ju-87G was introduced, the Il-2 had 1684 kills and deaths, the Ju-87G 2598.
And by the way: The Ju-87G was not chosen by a vote. :)
For a first tour release I'd say its usage has been low. I forget the exact day it was released, tho your right, I did forget it wasnt out all tour. But in perspective the 410 has been used for 13053 K/Ds in its limited tour compared to its contemporary 110s full tour of 8972. The G2 has an unimpressive 2602 K/Ds. It hasnt been a particularly successful release. Maybe its 0.49% K/D has something to do with it.
ADDENDUM:
On the topic of K/D - global K/D includes all kills and deaths, including flak vehicles and fighter, against both of them the Ju-87 has naturally much worse cards than the Il-2
The true K/D vs tanks so far:
Il-2 1.36
Ju-87G 0.92
Hurricane IID 0.77
About what I'd say. The Hurri-D and 87G are about on equal footing, "the disparity can be explained by more usage of the 87G". We wont know the true facts until a few months go by, or, at least until we get a full tour of 87G stats.
Suddenly the allege d "fail" doesn't look that spectacular anymore... ;)
It looks like the IL2 is the premier tank killer. We already know the Hurri-D is a hangar Queen, sorry I know your fond of it. And the 87G is, or will shortly be, another hangar queen.
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It looks like the IL2 is the premier tank killer.
Which is exactly what I expected. I did not believe for a moment the Ju-87G would surpass it, unless they would had seriously overmodeled the gun. All key specs did speak for the Il-2.
We already know the Hurri-D is a hangar Queen, sorry I know your fond of it. And the 87G is, or will shortly be, another hangar queen.
By that definition, a whole lot of our planes are "hangar queens" (the Hurri D had >18,000 kills and deaths last year, #62 out of 87 planes). In fact, as it stands there are only very few planes left out of AH that would have a chance to get into the "top used" list.
As said above I was not expecting the 87G to be more than a niche plane. I'm still wondering what wonders players did expect from it, considering the slow, heavy and vulnerable plane it was based upon :headscratch:
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i will say that i hit a wirb at almost 0 degrees wheels almost hit dirt and well under trees that i put 1 shot/2 rounds in the side (under turret above tracks, what sprits and where they were going looked liked) and it didnt die and it kept shooting then i got the kill after a gver shot it.... would think it would just die
I meant at almost 0 degrees** at 400 with my convergence at 400
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Well rich you are missing a lot of shots completely as well, even in your screen shots you cannot see anything as the dirt is kicking up from where you hit the ground
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Well rich you are missing a lot of shots completely as well, even in your screen shots you cannot see anything as the dirt is kicking up from where you hit the ground
Nope, each volley has at least one hit sprite. Heres another video of me and an IL2 working a T34 tonight. He actually got it smoking, tho I ended up with the kill. Included were perfect hits to the rear. http://youtu.be/7LiCL6a0_BM Thats 25mm plate I was shooting at 200 to 250 meters. The video degrades in the diting/streaming process. If i dont see a yellow hit spite in Vegas 10 then i dont use the video. And IL2, with the same amount of hits, in the same exact spots, would have killed it.
It was an IL2 that got it smoking. Unfortunatly i couldnt film that but you do see other heavy cannon rounds in the video.
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So question:
If the guns are modled correctly, why are they not as effective as they seem to have been in real life? I mean if the Ju-87G's really did use relatively shallow angles, the problem shouldn't be one of angles (as most people come in shallow).
If I had to guess, the problem lays in the damage model of vehicles, which require a certian ammount of damage to be destroyed.
Based on observation, it seems that there are two parts to the damage model, those being overall HP and components. In components, there are two separate sub-groups, those being critical and non-critical. Critical components would be engine, driver, and potentially ammunition racks, non-critical components are tracks, and turret. Each of these have a damage threshold that must be reached or exceeded for the component to be damaged. Engine seems to have a second damage threshold which results in destruction of the tank (perhaps through engine fire, or whatever other plausible cause).
It seems (again, based on obesrvation) that to destroy a tank, you must either destroy a critical component (wound the driver, or set the engine on fire), or exceed the overall damage threshold for the tank.
Each shell is also confirmed to have a set starting-damage-value, which appears to decrease with both range (decreased velocity) and armor penetrated (again, decreased velocity). The ability of the round to penetrate armor decreases with range (also due to decreased velocity).
However, the thing that doesn't make sense with this (at least to me) is that several weapons are known to fire APCBC-HE rounds, which have an HE component that explodes after penetration of the armor. IIRC, those are both Panzer IV's (with long 75mm's, I think), Panther, Tiger I and II, and the US M4's. One would think that the explosion in a confined space would do more damage than a shell or fragments of a shell ricocheting around inside the fighting compartment. This would also mean that the rounds from these tanks should do virtually the same ammount of damage regardless of the thickness of armor penetrated (because they blow up after penetration).
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In what way do they seem less effective than they should? How many hits per kill did they have in reality?
I have a feeling that the biggest problem is that people had overly optimistic expectations of them. I used to think so as well, you can see it in my old posts against the Ju87G-2, but in the last year or so I backed off on that substantially.
As it stands, the Il-2 is clearly a superior platform. The Ju87G-2's advantages are view out of the cockpit, synchronized guns and slightly higher penetration on the guns. The Il-2 is in all other ways superior.
The main use for the Ju87G-2, in my opinion, is that German aircraft fans now have a German plane to shoot tanks with and will no longer be pushed into using the Il-2, Hurricane Mk IId or B-25H.
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The main use for the Ju87G-2, in my opinion, is that German aircraft fans now have a German plane to shoot tanks with and will no longer be pushed into using the Il-2, Hurricane Mk IId or B-25H.
Naw, main use is special events stuff, IMO. Now we could finally run a decent Kursk scenario, minus the lack of the Yak-7B, and have both sides be roughly balanced in all ways (Allies would no longer be the only ones with a good ground-attack aircraft).
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Naw, main use is special events stuff, IMO. Now we could finally run a decent Kursk scenario, minus the lack of the Yak-7B, and have both sides be roughly balanced in all ways (Allies would no longer be the only ones with a good ground-attack aircraft).
Can't run Kursk still for other reasons.
In fact, never will be able to run Kursk without it being an automatic German victory I don't think.
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It doesnt have slightly superior penetration then the IL2. Thats my point. I use the exact same tactics in the IL2, despite it having more ammo. Same angles, same distance. Often shooting between 100 to 200 meters. My convergances is set to 300 and you can see Im almost always within that envelope. Same, Same with the IL2. I used to have the IL2s set to 250. Its one or two volleys, in one pass, for the kill. Ive done it easily for every tank but the T-2.
Theres no way the guns/ammo are better then the NS-37s in this game.
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So question:
If the guns are modled correctly, why are they not as effective as they seem to have been in real life? I mean if the Ju-87G's really did use relatively shallow angles, the problem shouldn't be one of angles (as most people come in shallow).
If I had to guess, the problem lays in the damage model of vehicles, which require a certian ammount of damage to be destroyed.
Based on observation, it seems that there are two parts to the damage model, those being overall HP and components. In components, there are two separate sub-groups, those being critical and non-critical. Critical components would be engine, driver, and potentially ammunition racks, non-critical components are tracks, and turret. Each of these have a damage threshold that must be reached or exceeded for the component to be damaged. Engine seems to have a second damage threshold which results in destruction of the tank (perhaps through engine fire, or whatever other plausible cause).
It seems (again, based on obesrvation) that to destroy a tank, you must either destroy a critical component (wound the driver, or set the engine on fire), or exceed the overall damage threshold for the tank.
Each shell is also confirmed to have a set starting-damage-value, which appears to decrease with both range (decreased velocity) and armor penetrated (again, decreased velocity). The ability of the round to penetrate armor decreases with range (also due to decreased velocity).
However, the thing that doesn't make sense with this (at least to me) is that several weapons are known to fire APCBC-HE rounds, which have an HE component that explodes after penetration of the armor. IIRC, those are both Panzer IV's (with long 75mm's, I think), Panther, Tiger I and II, and the US M4's. One would think that the explosion in a confined space would do more damage than a shell or fragments of a shell ricocheting around inside the fighting compartment. This would also mean that the rounds from these tanks should do virtually the same ammount of damage regardless of the thickness of armor penetrated (because they blow up after penetration).
Could this be a bug on the T-34/76? I was at V85 spawn in a Panther in the same spot I sat at for years one shot killing almost any tank that upped except the T-34/76. I had to hit them 4 or 5 times to get a kill I noticed the same thing with other Panthers with side shots. Remember I am not the only one hitting these tanks others are shooting and hitting them at the same time as I am. Someone had a post in here about rubber bullets. Why is the IL-2 guns seem so much more effective then the JU-87-G? I do have a harder time lining up the sights in the JU-87 than the IL-2 but that is just me. I wonder if Hans Rudel had this probelm with the JU-87G guns?
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Could this be a bug on the T-34/76? I was at V85 spawn in a Panther in the same spot I sat at for years one shot killing almost any tank that upped except the T-34/76. I had to hit them 4 or 5 times to get a kill I noticed the same thing with other Panthers with side shots. Remember I am not the only one hitting these tanks others are shooting and hitting them at the same time as I am. Someone had a post in here about rubber bullets. Why is the IL-2 guns seem so much more effective then the JU-87-G? I do have a harder time lining up the sights in the JU-87 than the IL-2 but that is just me. I wonder if Hans Rudel had this probelm with the JU-87G guns?
No, he didnt. In March of 1943, during a tank battle around Belgorod, Rudel knocked out his first tank with his new tank-busting Stuka - "... my rear gunner who said that the tank exploded like a bomb and he had seen bits of it crashing down behind us." (Hans-Ulrich Rudel).
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen9.htm
On the first day of the Operation Citadel, during his first mission,Rudel knocked out four Soviet tanks and by the evening, his score grew to twelve.
Rudel's squadron'ssuccess, Panzerstaffels (Tank Destroyer Squadrons) were formed.Based on his experiences, Rudel developed new tactics for Panzerstaffels. He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side.
And he wasnt alone. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=41684&page=32 Rudel was credited with 519 tank kills. The thing about the Luftwaffe is I would believe their kill counts more then I would believe any other countries. They had strict rules of confirmation, and even more, it was considered very dishonorable to credit yourself for a kill you didnt actually get. And its not like shooting fighters in the heat of dogfights. You either killed the tank on your own or you didnt.
The lack of Panther, Tiger, King Tiger, kills with the 87G further support my argument that its guns and advanced ammo just arent up to snuff. This current video http://youtu.be/7LiCL6a0_BM How can one argue that I shouldn't have even been able to get the T34 smoking? An IL2 did that.
Is the 87G killing T34s? Of course it is. But its a very common tank to come across, I know i used to kill hundreds of tanks a tour, and the G just isnt doing it very well. Ive yet to see online video of a clean, exploding, kill of a T-34 or up tank. The most Ive seen is a smoker, which is all Ive been able to achieve. Ive blown them offline, but with F3 you can come in almost totally vertical and hit the top turret flush and point blank. We dont have F3 in the arenas. Nor did the Luftwaffe. You can see from the historical gun cam video their tactics are no different then the ones we use in the game.
This was a very high velocity tungsten core Hartkernmunition ammo, capable of penetrating up to 140 mm / 100 m / 90 degrees although this was halved at a striking angle of 60 degrees. So why did some of my shots bounce off 25mm plate at 100 to 200 m at 60 to 70% ?
I doubt this will go anywheres. For every tank hunter there are 100 tank drivers. Most players just bomb them, but they are missing the challenge of placing two perfect shots into the exact perfect place. Thats why we hunt tanks with cannon birds.
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Rudel was credited with 519 tank kills. The thing about the Luftwaffe is I would believe their kill counts more then I would believe any other countries. They had strict rules of confirmation, and even more, it was considered very dishonorable to credit yourself for a kill you didnt actually get. And its not like shooting fighters in the heat of dogfights. You either killed the tank on your own or you didnt.
*stares at shiny spinner*
*swims away*
- oldman
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*stares at shiny spinner*
*swims away*
- oldman
Wahtever that means. I just got a chance against a Tiger with the 87G. The results were amusing. I'll cut the film when I can. Ended up upping an IL2 to kill it.
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It doesnt have slightly superior penetration then the IL2. Thats my point. I use the exact same tactics in the IL2, despite it having more ammo. Same angles, same distance. Often shooting between 100 to 200 meters. My convergances is set to 300 and you can see Im almost always within that envelope. Same, Same with the IL2. I used to have the IL2s set to 250. Its one or two volleys, in one pass, for the kill. Ive done it easily for every tank but the T-2.
Theres no way the guns/ammo are better then the NS-37s in this game.
Penetration doesn't mean a large ammount of damage. You can plug away with 76mm HVAP rounds from the T-34/76 at the front of a tiger, and not get a kill. Same with the M8's 37mm; it can penetrate the front hull armor of a Panzer IV H, but you'll need a lot of ammunition.
The problem with comparing the Il-2 and the 87G is that the IL-2's are firing much faster and landing more hits. I'm sure if you compared the number of hits for each aircraft to destroy any given tank, they would be fairly close.
However, the issue is that while it was rare for an Il-2 to kill tanks with guns alone (I'm not quite sure if there is even a single reliable example of a lone Il-2 destroying even ONE tank with guns alone, much less multiple tanks), however it was not rare for the Ju-87G-2 to destroy tanks with guns alone. Infact, I'm almost certian that guns-only attacks account for 100% of tank kills achieved by the Ju-87G-2, it being armed with nothing else.
So I suppose theres actually two questions here: 1) should the Il-2 be as effective as it is, and 2) is the Ju-87G underpreforming?
It seems to be, given that a Panzer IV is much more lightly armored to the sides and rear than a T-34, which was the Ju-87G's main victem, was.
@R105: I find that HIGHLY unlikely. Unless you're firing at extreme range, a T-34 should be a one-shot-kill with the Panther's KwK 42. And the Panther is most certianly not taking multiple side shots to destroy. It seems to be the most vulnerable tank in the game from the sides.
Film or we can only narrow it down to several possibilities: 1) you're BS'ing 2) T-34/76 and Panther are bugged, yet nobody's been freaking out about it (not very likely, especially with the latter tank 3) Hitech let skuzzy try his hand at coding.
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The problem with comparing the Il-2 and the 87G is that the IL-2's are firing much faster and landing more hits. I'm sure if you compared the number of hits for each aircraft to destroy any given tank, they would be fairly close.
I shoot the IL2 just like I shoot the Hurri-D, just like I shoot the 87G. In 2 shot volleys from extremely close range. I dont have time to hit a tank more then one or two volleys. Theres another possibility, assuming you aint all BS, and thats that nobody cares cause nobody is much flying the thing. Hmmmm, both the 410 and 87G were pulled from the tour 150 stats page.
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I shoot the IL2 just like I shoot the Hurri-D, just like I shoot the 87G. In 2 shot volleys from extremely close range. I dont have time to hit a tank more then one or two volleys. Theres another possibility, assuming you aint all BS, and thats that nobody cares cause nobody is much flying the thing. Hmmmm, both the 410 and 87G were pulled from the tour 150 stats page.
Then you're doing it wrong. I've never seen even a fresh-up panzer die to 4 rounds from an Il-2 to the side or rear. It takes more than 4 rounds from the M6 37mm gun on the M8 to destroy a Panzer in many cases, and the M8 has what is now the second best 37mm cannon in the game, behind only the BK 37 with its APCR rounds.
Very top, maybe, but I doubt that you've both perfected the art of a high AoA firing run, and still find the IID or 87G-2 inferior to the Il-2. IID is far faster, and climbs much better than the IL-2, and so would be better for high-angle diving attacks. Ju-87G is just an actual dive bomber, and better at the pull-ups.
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Oh, and for all the people saying the 87G's guns were just fine, Hitech just said you're wrong with the Patch 4 update.
BK 37s now do more damage.
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Oh, and for all the people saying the 87G's guns were just fine, Hitech just said you're wrong with the Patch 4 update.
BK 37s now do more damage.
But no more penetration.
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I don't think anyone was arguing penetration. I certianly wasn't.
I was saying that a penetration of the armor in Aces High doesn't cause as big a problem as a penetration of the armor in real life. I mean in real life, a 37mm shell bouncing around inside the fighting compartment is going to cause some rather serious issues.
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I am happy so far with update. The same sit I posted in begining of this tread I now flat out killed the wirb. Though haven't tried on anyother tanks
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Then you're doing it wrong. I've never seen even a fresh-up panzer die to 4 rounds from an Il-2 to the side or rear. It takes more than 4 rounds from the M6 37mm gun on the M8 to destroy a Panzer in many cases, and the M8 has what is now the second best 37mm cannon in the game, behind only the BK 37 with its APCR rounds.
Very top, maybe, but I doubt that you've both perfected the art of a high AoA firing run, and still find the IID or 87G-2 inferior to the Il-2. IID is far faster, and climbs much better than the IL-2, and so would be better for high-angle diving attacks. Ju-87G is just an actual dive bomber, and better at the pull-ups.
"much better"? http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahplaneperf/Itemid,221/view,ahplaneperf/index.php Also the IL2 rolls better, converts energy better, and is far better armored.
Ive killed more panzers from the side or top with one voley of one or two shots then carter has peanuts. Heres a Tiger I killed with one shot the other day. http://youtu.be/P1UsDyKe46s After dumping off an 87G after unloading all its ammo on it and seeing it bounce off. Then I killed two panzers in quick succession.
The M8 cant get as close as the IL2 and if you cant kill a Panzer with 4 shots from an IL2 then your in the wrong business.
Again what is your in game name Tank-ace? Mines Rich54
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I generally shoot just as I pass him and hope he bails.
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"much better"? http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahplaneperf/Itemid,221/view,ahplaneperf/index.php Also the IL2 rolls better, converts energy better, and is far better armored.
If you're using high AoA attacks, return fire is a non-issue. Nothing that can hit you from a high-angle dive would be significantly less dangerous to the Il-2 than it is to the Hurricane IID.
And yes, its preformance is much better. Not 300+mph better, but still much better. Remember, when comparing fighters, even 15mph faster is a big increase. 250 fpm rate of climb can matter.
Also, I really don't think the Il-2 rolls better. About equal in the best of cases, I would say.
Ive killed more panzers from the side or top with one voley of one or two shots then carter has peanuts. Heres a Tiger I killed with one shot the other day. http://youtu.be/P1UsDyKe46s After dumping off an 87G after unloading all its ammo on it and seeing it bounce off. Then I killed two panzers in quick succession.
The M8 cant get as close as the IL2 and if you cant kill a Panzer with 4 shots from an IL2 then your in the wrong business.
I've closed to 150yds when firing at Panthers before. For a Panzer, I think my closest is about 50yds in an ambush-engagment. Those undestroyed barns make REALLY nice hiding places.
Again what is your in game name Tank-ace? Mines Rich54
Was Jager up untill last Sept. Been on a break since then. However, since no damage model or anything relevant to this has been changed since last sept. and now, dates don't matter near so much.
And I really don't care about your stats, that you think you can kill a Panzer IV with a 2-4 rounds from an Il-2 on anything approaching a regular basis shows somethings really not quite clicking for you.
Just tested offline, and it takes at least 2 rounds from the M8 to kill a Panzer IV H from the side at about 200yds with 90 degree impact anlge (no slope of the armor relative to the round). Now, unless you're 1) coming it at almost taxi-height, firing at less than 200yds, and are flying near perfectly perpendicular to the tank, you're not killing them in 4 rounds. If you're doing that, then you have the incredible good luck of not bumping into a tanker who knows his buissness against aircraft.
Really, the Il-2 is only superior because of its large ammunition capacity, and perhaps its armor, depending on your style. In all other ways, its equal or inferior.