Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on November 03, 2012, 09:08:36 AM
-
The P-51D's usage seems to be hold at about the Spitfire Mk XVI's and La-7's combined usage, yet all are equally ranked at ENY 5. In Lusche's post of the time five types killed by a particular plane, the P-51D was listed six times:
Addendum: Top 5 plane kills Jan-Sep 2012
1. P-51D kills P-51D 20269
2. P-51D kills Lanc 12343
3. P-51D kills B-17 10050
4. P-51D kills Spit 16 9939
5. La-7 kills P-51D 9405
Can anything be done to encourage more diversity? Should anything be done?
I would suggest dropping the P-51D to 2 ENY or raising the ENY of every other unperked fighter by 5 and leaving the P-51D at 5 ENY by itself, but both of those have other significant, and undesirable, impacts. The first would greatly increase the number of perk points people were earning, the perk points awarded for shooting down a P-51D in a Hurricane Mk I would jump from 8 to 20, which would likely require perk costs for perked units to be raised. The second would alter the balance that ENY restrictions apply and somewhat increase the number of Fighter Perks being by low ENY fighters like La-7s and Spitfire Mk XVI's while reducing overall perks earned by high ENY fighters like the Bf109E-4 and A6M2. ENY wouldn't restrict access to things like the La-7 and Spitfire Mk XVI nearly as often.
-
Kill em. Kill em all, then shoot some more. Then let HTC sort it out. :aok
-
I hate La-las but that being said, I don't worry about the rate of usage by any plane. If you fly properly you will almost always be fine. If you get slow and stupid everything is going to kill you.
On the one hand, if the concern is the rate of usage by an ubber-plane then give it a modest perk like maybe 5 points. On the other hand, by 1944 it was the all the rage with thousands of them loitering over Europe, even by 1945 all over the skies of Japan. Realism means we are going to have to deal with lots of PonyDs.
My thoughts.
Boo
-
shoot us down if u can :joystick: :airplane:
-
If you take away the 1000 Lb. bomb option and the ability to mount both bombs and rockets at the same, that should reduce the total pony usage.
-
If you take away the 1000 Lb. bomb option and the ability to mount both bombs and rockets at the same, that should reduce the total pony usage.
A perked ordnance system in which the 1000lbers are perked option for the P-51D might get more of those guys into P-47s and P-38s. That could be the best way to go.
-
after fully reading you post--i started thinking--WHY DO YOU CARE which planes are flown the most..is it you r getting shot down or bombed by the p51d..there are people flying 190's and 109's alot--and even the brewster's alot..you don't see people complaing about them..my mustang gets shot down alot--you don't see me complaining about which planes r shooting me down do u-no.they all shoot me down..but i still up a plane..now if you are talking about people up a mustang just to pick and run thats another story..it's also their $14.95 or $15.95 or $16.95<---i pay) it you don't like it shoot e'm down...hoing, i do it,try not to-but it happens--vulch a runway--have done it,try not to but it happens--it is said that people that pick and run have no real kill--id rather get shot down in a dual wether it be 1v1 2v1 3v1 or a horde than to get picked while try to land or take off.i have vulched--but i try to wait till off the runway.quit complaining and just shoot us mustang guys down--even if u have to chase them all they way back to their base-nuff said :bolt:
-
Can anything be done to encourage more diversity? Should anything be done?
No and No [/thread]
-
after fully reading you post--i started thinking--WHY DO YOU CARE which planes are flown the most..is it you r getting shot down or bombed by the p51d..there are people flying 190's and 109's alot--and even the brewster's alot..you don't see people complaing about them..my mustang gets shot down alot--you don't see me complaining about which planes r shooting me down do u-no.they all shoot me down..but i still up a plane..now if you are talking about people up a mustang just to pick and run thats another story..it's also their $14.95 or $15.95 or $16.95<---i pay) it you don't like it shoot e'm down...hoing, i do it,try not to-but it happens--vulch a runway--have done it,try not to but it happens--it is said that people that pick and run have no real kill--id rather get shot down in a dual wether it be 1v1 2v1 3v1 or a horde than to get picked while try to land or take off.i have vulched--but i try to wait till off the runway.quit complaining and just shoot us mustang guys down--even if u have to chase them all they way back to their base-nuff said :bolt:
That argument fails unless you want to unperk everything and just let the Me262s run wild. It is not a deliberation about the merits of the specific situation and instead simply an argument to shut down any and all discussion.
Answer why the P-51D in particular should not be singled out for population control where other aircraft have been? Be specific to this situation. I can think of many specific arguments for and against my OP that don't generically argue for free Me262s.
-
That argument fails unless you want to unperk everything and just let the Me262s run wild. It is not a deliberation about the merits of the specific situation and instead simply an argument to shut down any and all discussion.
Answer why the P-51D in particular should not be singled out for population control where other aircraft have been? Be specific to this situation. I can think of many specific arguments for and against my OP that don't generically argue for free Me262s.
ok so you perk the 51d. now everyone flies the unperked spit 16 instead.. 6 months down the road you are screaming to perk the spit 16.. and the cycle continues. Lunatic hit the nail on the head but you refuse to listen. STOP worrying what others fly. Fly what you want and let others do the same. its their $15, let them play their way
-
A perked ordnance system in which the 1000lbers are perked option for the P-51D might get more of those guys into P-47s and P-38s. That could be the best way to go.
Indeed, but in my opinion the 1000 lb bombs should be perked on any single seat aircraft. Get those base takers in dedicated strike aircraft.
-
I don't think the perk ordinance system will do anything to discourage people flying the 51d, the chart you posted in original post was a plane vs plane kills anyway.
-
Indeed, but in my opinion the 1000 lb bombs should be perked on any single seat aircraft. Get those base takers in dedicated strike aircraft.
That include the jugs?
-
Being that the 51D gets used as much as the 2nd and third most used planes combined - and has every month for years; it's clear that any reduction in availability would cause oceans of tears and possibly many deleted accounts. I hate P-51s as much as anyone but don't think anything will be done about the infestation.
If only ENY kicked in sooner...
-
ok so you perk the 51d. now everyone flies the unperked spit 16 instead.. 6 months down the road you are screaming to perk the spit 16.. and the cycle continues. Lunatic hit the nail on the head but you refuse to listen. STOP worrying what others fly. Fly what you want and let others do the same. its their $15, let them play their way
I would not support perking the P-51D. It has way to much star power draw to perk and I think it, along with the Spitfire, makes an excellent baseline for top free plane.
A perked ordnance system to limit the 1000lb bombs on it or tweaking its ENY are as far as I'd go.
-
I would not support perking the P-51D. It has way to much star power draw to perk and I think it, along with the Spitfire, makes an excellent baseline for top free plane.
A perked ordnance system to limit the 1000lb bombs on it or tweaking its ENY are as far as I'd go.
how is perking the ords going to effect the plane vs plane kills chart you posted? What would lowering the eny on it do? It is already at the lowest rating of 5. no body is going to care if it is a 3. our eny system has rarely kicked in since they did away with two late war arenas.
-
If you take away the 1000 Lb. bomb option and the ability to mount both bombs and rockets at the same, that should reduce the total pony usage.
Why?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/p51dbombsandrockets2nov44-1.jpg)
-
ok so you perk the 51d. now everyone flies the unperked spit 16 instead.. 6 months down the road you are screaming to perk the spit 16.. and the cycle continues. Lunatic hit the nail on the head but you refuse to listen. STOP worrying what others fly. Fly what you want and let others do the same. its their $15, let them play their way
Except the spit 16 would not replace the pony.
Atm in AH, the pony is mostly seen in 1 roll, bomb-truck. Spits and LA7s won't take over the bomb-truck roll as they carry much smaller bombs/no rockets aswell as lower ammo loads. The only unperked planes that can match the Pony in ords loadout would be the Jug/P-38/Mossie/190-F8 and the F4U-D.
These 5 are slower then the pony even with WEP on the deck. The Jug can BnZ well but once things get slow or a con shows-up with a little alt the Jug is unable to run same with the 38 & mossie. Now there are players that can stall/turn fight these planes and pull some great moves in them, but most average hordes dont have that skill level. The F4U is the real threat of this group as it is able to match the ord load and range of the pony but is also able to use that huge rudder and flaps when things get low and slow.
-
Except the spit 16 would not replace the pony.
Atm in AH, the pony is mostly seen in 1 roll, bomb-truck.
I think you may have your facts wrong... check the chart posted in the first post.
-
how is perking the ords going to effect the plane vs plane kills chart you posted? What would lowering the eny on it do? It is already at the lowest rating of 5. no body is going to care if it is a 3. our eny system has rarely kicked in since they did away with two late war arenas.
Do you not think P-51Ds are used as fighters after dropping their bombs and firing their rockets? Do you not think that some of those P-51Ds shot down by other P-51Ds or by La-7s were being used as bomb trucks?
Limit the 1000lbers and it becomes a less attractive bomb truck causing people to look to things like the P-47s, P-38s and F4Us which can act as a bomb truck, but aren't as good at running.
As to ENY changes, well, lowering the ENY from 5 to 2 or 3 would make the P-51D suffer impacts from ENY limitations earlier. Currently only the B-29 has an ENY of 2 though.
-
Can anything be done to encourage more diversity? Should anything be done?
From my perch in the cheap seats: Yes & no.
I'm happy with things as they are.
-
I think you may have your facts wrong... check the chart posted in the first post.
The stats only tell you that ponys where shooting things down. Its not the ponys capping their fields or flying escort who are the problems, its the sheer singleminded hordes that up almost nothing but heavy ponys. Perking the 1000s would slow them down alot.
-
A review of the perk scale would be good, me thinks. The P51D and the Spitfire 16 could both use a jump, imo.
I think the scale needs to be more dynamic, currently most of the scale is tiered out in levels of 5, I say use a 2 through 60 scale. Things like the B29, P51D, Spitfire 16, Me262, Tempest, and a few obvious others should be at 5 or higher, and things like the C47 and Storch should be at 60. The SBD, D3A, and B5N should be in the 50-55 range.
In terms of GV's, I really think HTC needs to re-evaluate their current ENY values. The Panzer IV F has a score of 40 and the Panzer IV H has a 25??? If HTC was using only the short barreled version to score that then maybe, but as it is the F is just slightly behind the H in terms of AP ability. The lack of a top mounted MG may give another 2-3 points, but not 15.
-
I just don't think the much more limited, slower and less used Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7 should share the P-51D's ENY 5 if no other controls are added. The usage gulf between them is just too great now.
-
The P-51D's usage seems to be hold at about the Spitfire Mk XVI's and La-7's combined usage, yet all are equally ranked at ENY 5. In Lusche's post of the time five types killed by a particular plane, the P-51D was listed six times:
Can anything be done to encourage more diversity? Should anything be done?
I would suggest dropping the P-51D to 2 ENY or raising the ENY of every other unperked fighter by 5 and leaving the P-51D at 5 ENY by itself, but both of those have other significant, and undesirable, impacts. The first would greatly increase the number of perk points people were earning, the perk points awarded for shooting down a P-51D in a Hurricane Mk I would jump from 8 to 20, which would likely require perk costs for perked units to be raised. The second would alter the balance that ENY restrictions apply and somewhat increase the number of Fighter Perks being by low ENY fighters like La-7s and Spitfire Mk XVI's while reducing overall perks earned by high ENY fighters like the Bf109E-4 and A6M2. ENY wouldn't restrict access to things like the La-7 and Spitfire Mk XVI nearly as often.
give it a eny of 0, make it so whatever points you get dont count towards score and i will still fly it. It is funny how some people want to control what others play.
when I started playing I would only fly the zeke and I got pretty good at it then it was the beatching and moning about only flying that. then I switched to the spit9 then the spit8 I got some pretty cool kills in it. I also flew the Il2 and oh the moaning and beatching from the gv's and the couple of 262's that I nailed. then I flew the c205 it was too easy of a plane to fly. so now I fly the ponyd give it a lower eny or no points I dont play for score so it doesnt matter.
but one thing to ponder around here what about the p47's and their unlimited ammo? dont forget the ponyb it turns almost like a spitfire but without cannons. and dont tell me it's that hard to fly the ki84 forget the c205 that thing is easy as hell and it is a perk farmer. most of the people that fly bg109 only know one trick and that is trying to rope. then the whining begins because they run out of e and get killed.
I have flown almost all airplanes and most are pretty decent to fly and get kills in. but I will refuse to fly the 190s. but if you want people to really show skill then fly the p38 now that is a man's plane. some day I'll learn to fly it, rest of the plane set is just so some people can beatch about how the other is a dweeb.
semp
-
When the P51B entered the ETO it flew on 130 octane like it is modeled in the MA. The P51D entered service in the ETO using 150 octane. Why not have the P51D changed to 72" manfold and 150 octane with a perk of 20 - 30? The P51D in the ETO was not a 130 octane bird when it met the Dora or K4 like our P51D is in the MA. One could argue any allied fighter introduced June 44 on should be running 150 and perked.
A similare argument to change the spit14 to 21lbs boost and increase it's perk to match the Tempest along with the Tempest changed to 11lbs boost. British fighters in the 2nd Tactical over the continent at the same time as the P51D were running on 150.
And we know WEP is used as the standard "Combat Warp 12 Speed" in this game along with relyance on it to enable many exotic aerobatic combat manuvers that just wouldn't work very well without that little bit of torquy boost at the right choreographed moment. Not "War Emergency Power", especially since it repowers itself like a Mario Brothers power up token.
Make it the P51D the real humdinger it was and perk it appropriatly. If players still want to be runstangs let them do it in the P51B. It's just as competitive in the MA with all the non-perk rides minus 2-.50cal but, you have to tote around those bazooka tubes after you de-ack. So remember to bring escorts to fight and vulch for you to save you from the defending Brewsters.
-----------------------------------------------------
Deliveries of Grade 100/150 aviation fuel to Eighth Air Force fighter airfields commenced in June 1944. This coincidentally occured about the same time as the introduction of the P-51D into service. Even though the USAAF had cleared the P-51 for 75" Hg., the Eighth Air Force chose 72" Hg as the P-51's War Emergency Rating.
-
i'm guessing its just the new fad.. for awhile it was all noe 110's. now its heavy ponies.
i just checked my stats from field gun last tour.. as far as kills of fighters #1 was p51d and #2 was f4ud (cv version of hordelet bomb truck)
if you dont think tweaking ord availability would change its usage you're nuts.
-
If you take away the 1000 Lb. bomb option and the ability to mount both bombs and rockets at the same, that should reduce the total pony usage.
p51-d's crried 1000 pound bombs and rockets at same time in wwii.
-
Kill em. Kill em all, then shoot some more. Then let HTC sort it out. :aok
Nuff said, case closed. :aok
-
That include the jugs?
if you perk the p51d--u might as well perk the p47d-40-it carries more bombs and rockets---where will it end????????????????????
-
if you perk the p51d--u might as well perk the p47d-40-it carries more bombs and rockets---where will it end????????????????????
Nobody, other than you, has suggested perking the P-51D as it exists in the game. Stop building strawmen.
-
:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: No :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:
-
What to do about the P-51D scourge?
Take one up and go Pony hunting.
-
What to do about the P-51D scourge?
Take one up and go Pony hunting.
I prefer doing it in the Mossie, which I have found is fine for it at lower altitudes. Still, too many of the things running away.
-
I prefer doing it in the Mossie, which I have found is fine for it at lower altitudes. Still, too many of the things running away.
So take a 190D9 then, let them try and run all they want. :t
Or a 109k4, or an La7...
-
easy to avoid the BnZ Ho one pass haul arse type 51 driver....yup they are aggregating when they don't at least commit to a fight...obviously if they have a mission to bomb something I can see why they wont stop and fight.....
it takes all kinds, I enjoy the fights I get and if the 51 doesn't want to fight and just runs......well see ya have fun and all that jazz.
-
What really erks me is the few notable individuals in our community that fly the pony like a total pansy love muffin. Good job teaching everyone else how to fly like runtards.
-
What really erks me is the few notable individuals in our community that fly the pony like a total pansy love muffin. Good job teaching everyone else how to fly like runtards.
That is because they are more concerned with score and fake squad medals than actually having a fun fight. I have more fun dying in my b38 to ink in his ki than I do just bnz people with a pony. But that's just me. Everyone gets to play the way they want and there isn't shiz you can do about it.
-
and there isn't shiz you can do about it.
Sure there is. Ho, gang, and fly 262's all day. :t
-
You can have my p-51 when you pry it off of my cold dead behind :salute
-
Up an La-7 or 190D and do some pony hunting! Problem soved :rock
-
Leave the pony-d alone there is nothing wrong or particularly special about it.
It dies just as easily as anything else.
-
Up an La-7 or 190D and do some pony hunting! Problem soved :rock
-
It could just mean Aces High has a predominately American customer base :headscratch:
-
I dont think the 51 should be perked. I think ALL ord taken by fighters should be perked. If you want to bomb..take a bomber.
-
What really erks me is the few notable individuals in our community that fly the pony like a total pansy love muffin. Good job teaching everyone else how to fly like runtards.
Would you agree that applies to just about every high performance bird in the AH inventory? Many of those birds have pilots who fly them 'to live' or to 'land kills' and don't ever learn to push them to the limit and to fight without the advantage.
It's always going to be about how each person chooses to play the game.
I'm trying to think of who lately would be considered a notable AH pilot flying 51s in the MA having such a big influence on newbies?
-
I'm trying to think of who lately would be considered a notable AH pilot flying 51s in the MA having such a big influence on newbies?
-(---zZzzzZzzz---
-
I love flying the Pony-D and think it should have a significant presence in the game, especially as a fighter/escort aircraft.
That said, I totally agree that it is abused as a bomb truck.
+1 to the idea of PERKING 2x1000lb BOMB-LOAD on the P-51.
This would likely reduce its abuse as a high-speed, flying-bomb, kamikaze plane, which would be an improvement to game play (without taking away anyone's ability to fly the P-51).
Please add this idea to the WISHLIST.
:salute
-
There is no 51 Scourge. Its only a scourge in your mind because its faster than your plane choice. There are many planes out there that can run down a mustang depending on the alt. People try to run me down all the time, but usually the jokes on them because I rev and fight. I understand your frustration with certain pilots who dont engage 1v1, who fly in orbit, and only will engage when they have 8 buddies, but its really not the plane, its the player. Perk the ord on the mustang only? You think that will stop the vtards or whatever they call themselves these days? They will just show up in Jugs or F4Us. Catching them has never been a problem for me even when they fly 51s. The problem is the WAY they fly. Its near impossible to shoot down ALL of them before they do damage. This thread should be about the horde scourge, and the general mentality of players who will not fight without overwhelming odds...as if their actual lives depended on it. Like Filth said, if you perk bombs on the mustang, you better perk them for all fighters, or it will make no difference. Personally, I think the mustangs ENY is fine at 5. BTW...the LA7 is currently at 8ENY...thought i read someone saying it was at 5.
-
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l14/el_boxer/batmanretard.jpg)
Just another post to complane about what others are doing.
-
The P-38 and P-47D-40/N can already carry more ords then the pony, which means the pony is liked by the bomb-truckers for another reason. If you look at the speed charts there is only a small handful of planes that can catch them on the deck. Now look at the P-38 and Jugs, I think to the horders mind, this is a big bonus.
If the 1000 is perked then they still have the 500 and rocket options, they would still have the tools needed to shut a field.
-
I'm just thinking about all the whines that would come from perking the pony :noid
-
I'm just thinking about all the whines that would come from perking the pony :noid
Most dont want the pony perked.
I like it when I run across P-51s and the like escorting B-17/B-24s, or when they give cap to an attack of B-25s or Jugs or P-38s or anything but more superheavy ponys lugging 2x1000blers and 6x rockets.
As it stands the pony sees more action then the next to most flown planes combined. And quite a few people think it boils down to the hordes flying huge pony mission that have nothing else but 1-2 C47s.
-
I dont see that many P51s and most of those I see die easy enough. Yes, a fast plane is often an annoying plane, but at least this one does not climb so well and does not have cannons. If Doras were as abundant as 51s they would have been a much greater nuisance.
Reducing ENY too much is a bad idea. ENY does not affect the (willing) plane choice of almost all players and preventing an entire chess piece from flying a major 1944 plane for extended periods is bad. Fighter perk points are worthless. Getting 12 perks in a mission is cool, but what will I do with these perks? I'm not very interested in 262s, Temps or Spit14s, so 1 and 12 perks have the same value for me. If I could trade them for bomber perks at least I could blow them on Mossie16s.
I have long supported the perk ordnance & loadout idea, but it has nothing to do with the P51D. It has much more to do with the paragraph above and reducing the effectiveness of suicide attacks (Pay the perks or suicide with 500 lbs)
-
Yanno what the Pony needs more then anything else?
Flight instructors to teach the people who like the pony, how to.
Of all the people who fly the pony, there are but a very few that are very good in it. I don't look up and say "Oh no. a high pony" Usually its more like "A high pony...cool."
a
As far as payload. Its no bigger a deal then an f4u1d, a 110,(in fact a 110 is more effective) or a P-47.
There is nothing wrong with the pony that needs to be altered or fixed. If the problem lies anywhere It lies within yourselves.
Lets say they alter any,perks, whatever to appease these whines. 6 Months from now. The complaints will again be the same. Only the plane will be different. And that isn't a plane problem. Thats a player problem.
-
Yanno what the Pony needs more then anything else?
Flight instructors to teach the people who like the pony, how to.
Of all the people who fly the pony, there are but a very few that are very good in it.
Agreed for all the guys that shoot and scoot you'll run into a some that can really fight in the Pony.
These guys are a blast because they'll surprise you a lot of times when they reverse with blood in their eyes
and you figure out oops not your typical pony driver.
-
I agree with Bozon. I have so many fighter perk points its meaningless. I think the perk system has the potential to induce more variety in player aircraft choice, but that would require lightly perking more planes. I could see later models of the '38, '51, and '47, La, 109 and 190, and Spitfire all being lightly perked, and also resetting all player perk balances to zero or some nominal amount at the beginning of each tour. In fact I'd be interested to see an in-game economy being built around perk points - with expansion into fuel, ordnance loads, and even pilot equipment like G-suits and shaded goggles, etc. I think I might enjoy spending a bit more time in the hangar before each sortie, deciding how to allocate my points. And it might reduce unrealistic practices like taking 50% internal fuel + full drop tanks, or suicidal Lancaster missions, if pilots had to pay for the wasted items.
But I suspect the majority of players would rather have the ability to fly what they want when they want, rather than limiting choices of what everyone flies in the name of arena variety.
-
There is no 51 Scourge.
The stats say there is.
Checking the official AH stats pages for the last 12 completed tours produced these results:
P-51D was the most used plane 12/12 tours (and in fact has been consistently since Tour 108 iirc)
SpitXVI was the second most used plane 8/12 tours
La7 was the third most used plane 8/12 tours
The only difference was the LA7 and Spit trading places a few times.
Out of 66 fighters to choose from, the 51D always leads the pack by a huge margin.
As in, double the nearest competitor.
As in, more kills than the 2nd place and 3rd place fighters combined.
Tours 142-153 total kills:
SpitXVI + La7 - 298,384
P-51D - 299,820
Please explain how that is not a scourge.
edit:if you count kills+deaths (Lusche-style) to determine usage, the difference is even greater.
-
Explain how a plane thats most commonly used equates it to being a "scourge".
-
Last tour. Which is the last time Ive been able to fly because of Sandy. I killed 47 P51d's while only being killed 17 times by them.
Now The pony is the plane that has killed me the most just by the sheer virtue of its popularity. If P 39s were the most popular plane it would probably have the most kills on me as well.
But I'll take 47-17 in my favor any time. I suspect many others would too.
Is the pony popular? Sure. But calling it a "scourge" because of its popularity is at best a bit of a reach
-
my bad its 43-17 in my favor not 47.
But still. The point remains the same
-
Please explain how that is not a scourge.
From Merriam Webster:
Definition of SCOURGE
1: whip; especially : one used to inflict pain or punishment
2: an instrument of punishment or criticism
3: a cause of wide or great affliction
It does not fit any of these definitions, not even #3.
It is popular because it is an american icon and because it gives noobs some feeling of safety. It is just not that good to cause a real pain inspite of its numbers. If you want to know what scourge is, unperk the Temp or the Chog.
-
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l14/el_boxer/batmanretard.jpg)
Just another post to complane about what others are doing.
This!
-
People misunderstand me I think. I don't care that it is the P-51. It could be the Hurricane Mk I, or my own favored Mosquito Mk VI, and it it were overused to this extent I would have posted.
Personally, for me, Pony Ds are the best source of perk points there are. Only slightly faster than my plane, slower if weaving to evade fire, worse turning ability, no better on climb and gives me a base 6 perk points for killing it.
-
I'd love to see a wider variety of planes in the air too. I fly the pony a lot because I seem to last longer in avoiding getting shot up. I stick to US planes mostly because my aim stinks and the 50's are about the only gun I have even close to a good chance at hitting. But with that said I STILL try to fly other planes. But thats me. I'm not worried about score/points/perks.
Too many play the game with one thing in mind, WIN! If all your going to do in a air to air fight is HO your not going to fly the biggest plane with the weakest guns. If your looking to capture bases the slowest plane with the lightest load isn't going to be your choice. People are going to use the biggest and baddest every time. Everyone says that MW has the best balanced plane set of all the arenas. If HTC closed LW and everyone moved to MW there would be a whole new set of "biggest and baddest".
As long as the focus of the majority of players is "capture the flag", instead of the journey to capture the flag Your going to see the same planes at the top of the list.
-
I've come up with a simple solution to this problem, that will subtly change the players own behavior to something more desirable, instead of making some drastic change that could work, or could ruin things. At worst, it will do no harm:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,246499.0.html
-
My odds of survival against a couple-3 P51's is eminently higher than against the same # of Lgays...long live P51 whordes :salute (aside--what % of kills by 51's are gv's?)
-
My odds of survival against a couple-3 P51's is eminently higher than against the same # of Lgays...long live P51 whordes :salute (aside--what % of kills by 51's are gv's?)
In the current year: 8.8% Quite low compared to other fighters.
-
Especially considering what the situation was in WarBirds with the Spit9, I just don't see the problem.
AH was more variety today in its plane usage than WarBirds for example ever had.
-
If you take away the 1000 Lb. bomb option and the ability to mount both bombs and rockets at the same, that should reduce the total pony usage.
I rarely use rockets on the D Pony so I would not miss them. I can pork the ords on a large field with just two 500 lbs bombs and the 50cals and fly home.
-
People misunderstand me I think. I don't care that it is the P-51. It could be the Hurricane Mk I, or my own favored Mosquito Mk VI, and it it were overused to this extent I would have posted.
Personally, for me, Pony Ds are the best source of perk points there are. Only slightly faster than my plane, slower if weaving to evade fire, worse turning ability, no better on climb and gives me a base 6 perk points for killing it.
Then why make this post? why title it the P-51D Scourge? If your gonna be the op on something you feel strongly about dont back off and run for ack as soon as you meet a l;ittle resistance
-
Then why make this post? why title it the P-51D Scourge? If your gonna be the op on something you feel strongly about dont back off and run for ack as soon as you meet a l;ittle resistance
It is the percentage that bothers me. The top plane doing twice the kills of the #2 and #3 hasn't been true since the F4U-1C wasn't perked. For a long, long time we had four fighters that were roughly equal, and significantly ahead of the rest, the Spitfire Mk IX (later the Spitfire Mk XVI), P-51D, La-7 and N1K2-J. Now it seems that the P-51D has won the contest between those four. At least then it was four, now it is one.
If the Hurricane Mk I was in the #1 spot and the runners up were the P-51D and Spitfire Mk XVI I would still be asking what, if anything, should be done about the Hurricane Mk I scourge. (Well, honestly I'd also be asking some pretty pointed questions about the flight modeling and such on the Hurricane Mk I as well)
-
Ok and several people have already posted the est reply IMO in that if ya perk the pony you get the Spit16 if you perk the ords they will just bring 500lber's since thats enough to do the job aswell. Im actually kinda for perking ords but I dont know how they can pull it of. Mostly tho the culture and make up of the game at current is going to nix and perk change to the pony or the ord because youa re still gonna be horde on horde.
-
I've spent a bit of time in the 51 leading up to DGS. It's a wonderful bird, and it's easy to understand why it's flown so much. It does everything well, and only has two flaws (climb and acceleration). While my own personal wish would be for EVERY plane to have some sort of perk (Yes, even the I-16 :t), that is probably a bad idea if we actually want new players to come in and stay a while.
This game has a pretty steep learning curve. Even for those of us that come in with some flight/combat sim experience and historical knowledge, it can be frustrating. Planes like the 51 and Spit 16 probably need to stay unperked if for no other reason than to give noobs and the less dedicated a nice ride to compete in.
I like the thinking of a few that have posted already. When I'm not in a 51, I see other 51's as perk points just waiting for me. :D Embrace the 51 scourge. It's better than worrying about it for sure.
:salute
-
Ok and several people have already posted the est reply IMO in that if ya perk the pony you get the Spit16 if you perk the ords they will just bring 500lber's since thats enough to do the job aswell. Im actually kinda for perking ords but I dont know how they can pull it of. Mostly tho the culture and make up of the game at current is going to nix and perk change to the pony or the ord because youa re still gonna be horde on horde.
But I never suggested perking the P-51D as that would not solve the problem satisfactorily. I suggesting playing with ENYs and somebody else suggested perking the 1000lb bombs on it. Nobody has suggested perking the P-51D itself, at least not without boosting it to 150 octane or perking a whole bunch of other late war units such as the Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7.
If you want to debate it helps if you actually respond to the positions being taken by the other side rather than making up a position for them and arguing against that. Doing that is called a "strawman argument".
As for perking the 1000lbs resulting in people just taking 500lbers on it, well, sure, if they are going for radar or fuel or ammo. 500lbers are, however, at a significant disadvantage against 1000lbers when it comes to hangar smashing or GV smashing. That being the case base raids of just mass numbers of P-51Ds would drop in effectiveness if people weren't paying the perk cost for the 1000lb bombs and that means that P-51D usage would drop a bit in favor of more P-38s and P-47s, both comparatively rare fighters as compared to the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7. And that is the goal, to somewhat reduce the P-51D's usage, not to gut it and not to remove the P-51D from the game.
-
As a Spit16 dweeb I don't mind the P51s, they are never really a problem unless I have an SA fail ;) So from my selfish viewpoint I say nothing needs to be done
I would however like stick stirring scrubs to be banned from flying the Spixteen :old: :furious
-
This is the reason I suggested perking the P51D after it being adjusted to the avgas it really burned and 72Hg when it entered service around June 44. I'm including the spit14, Tempest and K4. The spit14 and Tempest were burning 150 over the continent with the P51D.
Speed at Sea Level
---------------------------------------130 Grade--150 Grade
Spitfire XIV --------------------------359 mph ---366 mph +21 lb
Tempest V ---------------------------372 mph ---386 mph +11 lb
P51D\Mustang III--------------------360 mph ---390 mph 72in\+25 lb <--- possible a similare perk to the Tempest.
Bf109 - K4 ----------------------------------------360mph 1.8 ata
The P51D on 130 has just about the same performance at MA alts as the P51B. The P51B was introduced in late 43 to the ETO on 130 octane with the performance modeled in the MA. The P51D introduced in June 44 flew on 150 octane having higher performance than the 130 octane P51B at MA alts.
Anyone noticed that the P47D-40 runs at 65Hg on WEP. That is the MAP cleared for 150 44-1 fuel for P47's from the D-22 on to the D-40 just after DDay. So our P47 stable is running correct fuel grades for their introduction dates but, not our P51 stable.
A 352FG P51D being fueled with 150. Note the rating on the fuel truck on the ramp between the fore and aft tires.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/352FG-150oct-bowser.jpg)
-
Well the LW MA's down so like everyone else I've been flying in the MW MA for the last hour or two. What a blast! Far fewer people doing the "one pass and run away" stuff. The P-51B is enabled there but fewer people were flying them compared to the numbers of Ds in the LW MA. So maybe it is just no one caring so much about their score. Whatever, had more good fights tonight than in the last week or two in the LW MA.
-
Last month, the 51D had a k/d of 1.14, same as spit16....which is worse than nearly ALL the commonly flown fighters....it just gets tons more sorties...(V guys, methinks;)
-
Last month, the 51D had a k/d of 1.14, same as spit16....which is worse than nearly ALL the commonly flown fighters....
Absolutely not worse than "nearly all the commonly flown fighters". In fact, when looking at the whole year so far the the P-51D is slightly above average in the K/D department (1.13 vs 1.11 for all fighters, 1.07 if we remove the perked rides)
Current AH fighter chart, jan to oct 2012. Missing are only the 5 top perk rides way off the K/D scale.
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/galaxyjan-oct.jpg)
-
Again, I only lo looked in October, but I found I missed the P38L....its radio is far lower than the 51D. Unless you count the G14,, 109E/F,, F6, etc, the 51 is lowest of the common fighters
-
Again, I only lo looked in October, but I found I missed the P38L....its radio is far lower than the 51D. Unless you count the G14,, 109E/F,, F6, etc, the 51 is lowest of the common fighters
The average I gave is based on "the common" fighters, as uncommon fighters have much less impact on the average, which is based on all fighter kilsl and deaths. And tour 153 is not much different from the rest of the tours.
-
I am with bustr - even perk the fuel load out version. This is about the science and art of WWII combat, lets get the pony out there where she belongs. Perk it. I'll still fly it and pretty much nothing else.
-
after fully reading you post--i started thinking--WHY DO YOU CARE which planes are flown the most..is it you r getting shot down or bombed by the p51d..there are people flying 190's and 109's alot--and even the brewster's alot..you don't see people complaing about them..my mustang gets shot down alot--you don't see me complaining about which planes r shooting me down do u-no.they all shoot me down..but i still up a plane..now if you are talking about people up a mustang just to pick and run thats another story..it's also their $14.95 or $15.95 or $16.95<---i pay) it you don't like it shoot e'm down...hoing, i do it,try not to-but it happens--vulch a runway--have done it,try not to but it happens--it is said that people that pick and run have no real kill--id rather get shot down in a dual wether it be 1v1 2v1 3v1 or a horde than to get picked while try to land or take off.i have vulched--but i try to wait till off the runway.quit complaining and just shoot us mustang guys down--even if u have to chase them all they way back to their base-nuff said :bolt:
nice fail logic here, and often repeated. By this extention, we should unperk everything and turn AH2 into 262 online - hay, its my 15 bucks right?
the key to the 51 is, as mentioned earlier, the 2x1k ord option. This should be limited to dedicated ground pounders AND only if they take attack mode.
-
The average I gave is based on "the common" fighters, as uncommon fighters have much less impact on the average, which is based on all fighter kilsl and deaths. And tour 153 is not much different from the rest of the tours.
not sure what I'm missing here---the most common furballer rides all have a better k/d than the 51
Late War Tour 153 Statistics for all planes/vehicles/boats
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Tiger 2 2970 297 9.97
Me 262 3070 435 7.04
Tempest 1482 236 6.25
Panther G 18658 4098 4.55
Me 163B 949 232 4.07
Tiger I 3033 1047 2.89
F4U-1C 3634 1384 2.62
F4U-4 1594 652 2.44
P-38J 5145 2904 1.77
M4A3(76)W 8421 5015 1.68
P-47-D25 1471 891 1.65
Fw 190D-9 9810 6008 1.63
Sherman VC Firefly 1314 819 1.60
Wirbelwind 17802 11203 1.59
Bf 109K-4 8416 5441 1.55
P-38G 803 532 1.51
Fw 190A-5 2307 1563 1.48
Ar 234 320 217 1.47
Ta 152H 1549 1055 1.47
Ki-84-Ia 5666 3926 1.44
F4U-1A 7017 4938 1.42
T-34/85 32727 23046 1.42
P-51B 2327 1641 1.42
P-47M 3438 2459 1.40
La-7 10693 7855 1.36
Yak-9U 1715 1299 1.32
Hurricane Mk IIC 2756 2102 1.31
P-47-D11 651 502 1.29
Ki-61-I-Tei 892 693 1.29
C.205 2149 1676 1.28
A-20G 4495 3563 1.26
F4F-4 791 632 1.25
Typhoon IB 3904 3165 1.23
Bf 109G-6 1945 1599 1.22
F4U-1 1225 1016 1.20
Mosquito Mk VI 2911 2421 1.20
Fw 190A-8 6273 5375 1.17
M-18 8009 6942 1.15
Spitfire Mk XIV 557 482 1.15
Spitfire Mk XVI 12203 10665 1.14
N1K2 7356 6432 1.14
P-51D 20588 18054 1.14
Bf 109G-14 3011 2671 1.13
Bf 109G-2 1495 1353 1.10
Ostwind 2117 2029 1.04
Bf 109F-4 947 908 1.04
B-29 230 220 1.04
FM2 2363 2428 0.97
Il-2 1438 1538 0.93
La-5FN 604 648 0.93
Spitfire Mk VIII 3380 3746 0.90
C.202 127 141 0.89
A6M5b 3679 4161 0.88
P-40E 104 118 0.87
Spitfire Mk IX 2642 3060 0.86
F6F-5 6315 7453 0.85
P-40F 122 155 0.78
Yak-9T 407 522 0.78
SeaFire 4246 5457 0.78
P-39D 186 239 0.78
Bf 110G-2 3004 3899 0.77
Bf 109E-4 230 304 0.75
Brewster B-239 2255 2991 0.75
Panzer IV F 12183 16363 0.74
Ju 87G-2 472 644 0.73
P-40C 140 196 0.71
P-47-D40 1945 2749 0.71
Fw 190F-8 892 1289 0.69
I-16 305 441 0.69
Panzer IV H 28470 42577 0.67
F4U-1D 5986 9039 0.66
P-40N 309 474 0.65
M-16 1031 1599 0.64
P-38L 4121 6490 0.63
P-47N 1293 2134 0.61
P-39Q 312 521 0.60
Me 410 1654 2838 0.58
Spitfire Mk V 513 918 0.56
A6M3 556 1022 0.54
Hurricane Mk IID 246 459 0.53
Spitfire Mk I 104 198 0.52
Hurricane Mk I 115 235 0.49
A6M2 285 588 0.48
B-25H 1350 3138 0.43
B-17G 5168 12531 0.41
Ju 87D-3 163 427 0.38
T-34/76 2224 5859 0.38
M4A3(75) 1798 4927 0.36
PT Boat 2298 6350 0.36
M-8 726 2093 0.35
B-24J 2764 8519 0.32
B-26B 1891 6246 0.30
Ki-67 250 855 0.29
B5N2 128 510 0.25
Bf 110C-4b 37 155 0.24
LVTA2 429 1821 0.24
Mosquito Mk XVI 48 203 0.24
Lancaster III 3549 15569 0.23
M-3 1449 6767 0.21
TBM-3 338 1592 0.21
SBD-5 96 465 0.21
LVTA4 311 1597 0.19
D3A1 54 288 0.19
Boston III 182 1010 0.18
B-25C 332 2386 0.14
Ju 88 299 2676 0.11
SdKfz 251 32 330 0.10
Jeep 198 2219 0.09
Fi 156 319 3830 0.08
G4M1 Betty 64 796 0.08
C-47A 138 3221 0.04
-
51's are for the most part very easy to kill, on rare occasions you will find someone that is very good in one....even then they are just living a bit longer is all.
here is a film of me fighting 5 51's and 1 spit I am not sure if this shows how easy the 51's are to kill/avoid their HO passes ....or how awesome the 16 is :headscratch:
http://www.mediafire.com/?evbm8mue3bobgja
-
51D sucks at stall fighting. Then again, that's my fault for trying to turn with it. I know SirNuke is one of the few 51D pilots that I try to stay away from. ;) He knows how to keep it fast. I just yank the stick hoping some one will turn with me. :cry
-
.
The P51 is the bread and butter of my kill list, followed by the "mighty" k 4 :ahand
why would i want to see it get perked or nuetered ?
.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/rrr1.jpg)
-
51D sucks at stall fighting. Then again, that's my fault for trying to turn with it. I know SirNuke is one of the few 51D pilots that I try to stay away from. ;) He knows how to keep it fast. I just yank the stick hoping some one will turn with me. :cry
The 51 does not suck at stall fighting. It is very maneuverable ( in the right hands ). Not to many people take the time to learn the plane. They just nose down and run. My advise would be FLY A FASTER PLANE. LA7 is faster below 10k as is the dora and k4 and the tempist. i believe at some alts the typhoon is as well.
-
nice fail logic here, and often repeated. By this extention, we should unperk everything and turn AH2 into 262 online - hay, its my 15 bucks right?
Comparing a jet aircraft to a prop plane is downright silly.
6 pages of this nonsense and I have yet to see one person articulate any reason why the popularity of the P-51D presents any sort of problem. it was a common plane in the war, it should be a common plane in the MA. If anything, the real problem is the absurd over-usage of exotic planes like the C-Hog, Ta-152 and Me-163 that were extremely rare in the war and had real-life kill totals in the single or low double digits.
-
Tonight in MidWar it was intersting without the late war monsters. Reminded me of years ago in this game or AW before the late war monsters around AW3. Yes the P51B could run away along with the Typhoon tonight. But, most everyone stayed and fought because the general matchups were similare enough and the fast bomb truck was the B26. The rooks had enough players to hoard the knights and bish but, becasue of the lack of massable single engined bomb trucks like in the LWMA, took forever, ultimatly using bomber numbers to take feilds.
The GV fights were fun and pretty even without the late war GV uber tanks. Until a spawn got firmly camped, quite a few uppers got mobile and gave as good as they were getting.
It was fun watching skill, rather than WEP and speed dictate fights. HOing was at a minimum except from what I could see by P51B pilots. That could have been due more to the higher demands on shooting skill due to 4 - .50cal than any lack of general ability to fly the P51B. Being over capped by numbers was not as hard to up into and fight back as in the LWMA. Reminded me of how we fought in the MA back around AH1. Without the G14 and K4 only a real 109 expertin lasted very long in furballs. You couldn't help but see the superior 109 ability as lone G6 pilots forced overshoots while out manuvering multiple opponents.
A lot less complaints about running away, hoarding, or players avoiding fighting.
It might help game play in the LWMA to either perk 1000lb ord for the P51D or change it to it's real June 44 ETO performance specification of 72Hg and 150 octane then perk it.
-
Speed still is the key to survival, like it has been since 1914.
-
Speed still is the key to survival, like it has been since 1914.
-
Speed still is the key to survival, like it has been since 1914.
Till you come across someone who knows how to use you speed against you.
E management is far more important
-
I'd like to see 1000 pounders perked for all fighter aircraft that can carry more than one. Right now 51s are used far too often as a replacement for bombers. You can't perk just the 51s load out. All or none.
No perk cost for the fighter itself is needed.
-
I'd like to see each plane's ENY be updated based off the loadout that is selected.
-
1K bombs make small and medium bombers useless.
I'll take the blame for the P51D issue :angel:
-
51's are for the most part very easy to kill, on rare occasions you will find someone that is very good in one....even then they are just living a bit longer is all.
here is a film of me fighting 5 51's and 1 spit I am not sure if this shows how easy the 51's are to kill/avoid their HO passes ....or how awesome the 16 is :headscratch:
http://www.mediafire.com/?evbm8mue3bobgja
The only thing this proves is how awesome you really are, INK.
-
You aren't going to get the most popular North American aircraft of the war perked, just isn't going to happen.
Their speed might make them hard to catch, but if you have even slight situational awareness you can avoid 80% of the people who fly them relatively easily.
-
The 51 does not suck at stall fighting. It is very maneuverable ( in the right hands ). Not to many people take the time to learn the plane. They just nose down and run. My advise would be FLY A FASTER PLANE. LA7 is faster below 10k as is the dora and k4 and the tempist. i believe at some alts the typhoon is as well.
I'm not going to call you a liar, as I am sure you have much more time in the 51D than i do, but in my experiences getting the 51 into a turning fight is only a good idea until you drop below 250mph, at which point your choices are to extend away to reposition and gain some lost speed or to succumb to whatever plane you are trying to turn with.
If you can prove me wrong I would love for you to show me some pointers :) :aok
-
You aren't going to get the most popular North American aircraft of the war perked, just isn't going to happen.
Once again, if you want to debate with somebody on a subject it is best to actually address the points they are making rather than making up new ones and pretending that you are debating the other person.
Nobody is suggesting we take the P-51D in AH and perk it. It is a strawman argument that you're arguing against.
-
Once again, if you want to debate with somebody on a subject it is best to actually address the points they are making rather than making up new ones and pretending that you are debating the other person.
Nobody is suggesting we take the P-51D in AH and perk it. It is a strawman argument that you're arguing against.
Apologies, I was addressing your OP and did so before I realized there were 7 pages to this 48hr-old thread.
After reading most of the rest of the posts here, Anything I could say has pretty much already been said so I'll just add my own .02 cents.
The 51D doesnt need to be perked, it doesnt need an ENY increase/decrease, its fine the way it is. I could understand perking or adding eny value to fighters carrying 1000lb ords, but that wouldn't be specific to the 51 and thus doesnt pertain to this thread really.
The 51 is meant to be a behemoth, it was arguably the U.S.'s best long range fighter/attack craft. The fact that it's popular in AH shouldn't be a surprise. The fact that many of these people pick and run with it shouldnt be a surprise either, it's the perfect plane for it and really is what the plane was built to do, in a nutshell. Yeah, it's annoying. To me, its disgusting because it gives this plane and the pilots who fly it skillfully (or at least try to) a bad name. I and a wingman was recently in an engagement with 3 cons over one of their bases. After we shot all three of them down at least once a piece in a low flying DOGFIGHT, I noticed my secondary cannons were out of ammo and I had virtually no fuel, so we both made a run for home. The three we shot down had all re-upped and wanted more, and what happened? We caught flak for 'runstanging home with our tails between our legs', in so many words.
Oh and while I'm on the subject of speed: Sorry but a plane being able to outrun you isn't enough of a reason to perk it in my eyes. We all know thats the only reason why 80% of the pony pilots actually fly it, and why more than half of the people in here actually complain about it.
And as far as ords go, perking 1000lb bombs on all fighters may be fun, would allow for more bomber formations to shoot at when I'm bored. Im in :aok
-
double post.
-
I'm not going to call you a liar, as I am sure you have much more time in the 51D than i do, but in my experiences getting the 51 into a turning fight is only a good idea until you drop below 250mph, at which point your choices are to extend away to reposition and gain some lost speed or to succumb to whatever plane you are trying to turn with.
If you can prove me wrong I would love for you to show me some pointers :) :aok
I fly the K4 90% of the time. For the very reason that i got tired of pony's running. I do fly the pony often but i can't aim the thing. But from my experiences fighting against them and flying them i can say this. Throttle control and flaps with a steady hand and 200 or 300 feet of alt to gain E. Avoid the vertical fight. A lot of practice stall fighting the thing is the key as with any other plane. ACM wins the fight. The plane and it's ability's are just the tool :salute
-
:huh :huh :huh SQUAT ! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
-
I fly the K4 90% of the time. For the very reason that i got tired of pony's running. I do fly the pony often but i can't aim the thing. But from my experiences fighting against them and flying them i can say this. Throttle control and flaps with a steady hand and 200 or 300 feet of alt to gain E. Avoid the vertical fight. A lot of practice stall fighting the thing is the key as with any other plane. ACM wins the fight. The plane and it's ability's are just the tool :salute
Sounds about right, just need to practice it a little more, thanks!
When you get back into the game I'll have to throw a pm your way so we can have some DA fights :salute
-
Sounds about right, just need to practice it a little more, thanks!
When you get back into the game I'll have to throw a pm your way so we can have some DA fights :salute
I would like that. I have been gone for a few months :salute
-
Apologies, I was addressing your OP and did so before I realized there were 7 pages to this 48hr-old thread.
Nowhere in my OP did I suggest perking the P-51D, so no, you weren't addressing my OP.
-
Nowhere in my OP did I suggest perking the P-51D, so no, you weren't addressing my OP.
Okay, so I misread. you said the word "perk" in some form or another a good half-dozen times in your post and my brain apparently misread one of your statements.
-
Okay, so I misread. you said the word "perk" in some form or another a good half-dozen times in your post and my brain apparently misread one of your statements.
Yeah, I think we can both heartily agree that perking the P-51D would be a very bad idea.
-
The Dora does really well against single ponies or a pair of them.
("im dropping your radar then running home, you cant catch me, neener... errr.... how can a dora outturn a pony, you freakin haxxor, whaaa!!")
Against the mass pony-missions the only thing what can be done is a well-placed 262.
Problem solved. Perks in pocket.
-
I'm not going to call you a liar, as I am sure you have much more time in the 51D than i do, but in my experiences getting the 51 into a turning fight is only a good idea until you drop below 250mph, at which point your choices are to extend away to reposition and gain some lost speed or to succumb to whatever plane you are trying to turn with.
If you can prove me wrong I would love for you to show me some pointers :) :aok
if the other guy is a decent player, you have 2 turns to kill him at stall speed. on the 3rd turn he's gonna get behind you and you are dead. that is my experience with the pony.
semp
-
I talked about perking the P51D.
Even if you make it's eny 0, it will still be over used in the manner you opined with. Even if you perk the ord I doubt the perk will be enough to impede it's over use as a hoarding super fast bomb truck. To impede the use of 1000lb bombs the ord perk would have to become a defacto perk on the P51D itself. At which point stop stacking angels on a pin head and make the P51D worthy of perking and perk it. It was introduced into the ETO at 72in MAP. We all fight with WEP on as "Combat Speed" for the most part.
Otherwise you will not change player behavior where the P51D is concerned. It's the jack of all trades, get out of jail free with your skin plane of choice in the LWMA. It's not about ENY, perks or kills landed. It's about how safe it makes an average player feel and his chances of getting away in one piece.
The usage charts for it validate the 80\20 rule. The majority of players are using it for safety and not "Fighting". Only a minority of players are concerned about the quality of the "Fighting". And that minority tends to be the majority in these forums pulling their collective hair out over the 80 percenter's fixation on wanting to be able to runaway really really fast when things go bad during the "Fighting".
Or complain about the P51D's over use.
-
The only thing this proves is how awesome you really are, INK.
:rofl
I don't know about that, all I see is my horrible aim....I think it shows that the 51 is far from a "scourge" yup it is over used....but imagine if all the ones in 51's were in 16's..... :O a far more dangerous plane then the 51.
now of course I am not talking about bombing anything, that is a different convo entirely.
I say fly what ever the hell you want and let others do the same.....
-
if the other guy is a decent player, you have 2 turns to kill him at stall speed. on the 3rd turn he's gonna get behind you and you are dead. that is my experience with the pony.
semp
I'd say that sounds about right :aok
-
But if you don't keep turnfighting past the second turn, and take your cartoon death with cartoon honor, then you are just a picker and a runner! :rofl :bolt:
-
We sound like players in some kind of Sword & Sorcery Fantasy game with orks and trolls and dragons. We even have scourges of the land to oppose or kvetch about.
So how many scourges in the past 6 or 8 years have we survived or Hitech tweeked into a whimper.......
Nikki UFO's
CHog HO invasions
Suicide porkers
Lancstuka Kamikaze
110 NOE HO raids
NOE steam rollers
262 griefers of NOE raiders
Hoards avoiding each other
Spawn Camping
JSO and ENY
Lanstucka spawn camper carpet rolling
Warp 12 La7 HO and runners
Kill and Capture Fields by number AH1 era towns
Art of the HO
Spit16 uber turners
K4 uber WEP torquers
IL2 F3 Super Furballers
vTard Hit and Runaway enMass Rabid Gerbil raids
Hide the CV
Invasion of the Brewster Impossible Dream Snatchers
Invicible Iron Railgun Spawn Camping
GV hunting by Brail
Hidden Wirbel OOpsies
M3 ACK resupply greifers
P51D Scourge of BombTrucking and HOaRunningAwaying
And we actualy find time to fight each other in our frantic search for the slightest exploit to avoid fighting each other.
-
Hmmm, only one I remember was the F4U-1C scourge.
Well, other than the one day Me262 scourges that happen occasionally when it is accidentally unperked.
-
I say fly what ever the hell you want and let others do the same.....
I agree with what you are saying, but this is not really about limiting what people fly. It's about how they choose to use their ords. Karnak clarifies this several posts into this thread with the idea of perking bomb loadouts (not the plane), because of how the P-51 is abused as a high-speed bomb delivery vehicle, and in many cases a suicide one.
Yes, everyone in the LWMA should be able to fly the plane of their choice. But lifting a fighter to go fight is one thing, whereas taking heavy ponies to go crash into a CV, v-Base or fighter hangers, has a much greater impact on how other people get to play the game. The ability to have that kind of impact on the game should come with a cost, especially for failure (not landing) and that is, perk points.
By making those load-outs which have a high impact on the game cost perk points (tied into the ENY of the plane) you may see fewer suicide jabo runs, especially using low ENY planes like the Pony-D.
A cost for premium ord load-outs could extend to any AC, and might also be an effective method for cutting down on the ridiculous Lanc-stuka and low-alt suicide carpet-bombing runs many players make over and over, regardless of their dying every time.
:salute
-
Instead of perking the 1,000 lb bombs on fighters, perhaps they could simply be eliminated as a choice in the hangar.
Sure they were "used in teh war" but this is a game and hordes of super fast p-51 bombers flattening everything is lame.
Make it so only bombers can carry bombs bigger than 250 lbs and let them do the heavy smashing.
By limiting fighters to 250 lb bombs, there would be a reason to fly the medium bombers.
-
Instead of perking the 1,000 lb bombs on fighters, perhaps they could simply be eliminated as a choice in the hangar.
Sure they were "used in teh war" but this is a game and hordes of super fast p-51 bombers flattening everything is lame.
Make it so only bombers can carry bombs bigger than 250 lbs and let them do the heavy smashing.
By limiting fighters to 250 lb bombs, there would be a reason to fly the medium bombers.
WOULD like to see some usage stats on the 51 as an attacker vs the Jug...WHY would you use a deep-penetration escort as a jabo when you have the now increasingly obsolete, NON-radiator Jug?
-
.WHY would you use a deep-penetration escort as a jabo when you have the now increasingly obsolete, NON-radiator Jug?
Performance after the drop.
-
80\20 Rules of Aces High Air Combat.
80% Rule 1 - Survival at all costs is it's own reason.
20% Rule 1 - Fighting is it's own reward.
80% Rule 2 - The means of survival justifies the choice and it's abuse.
20% Rule 2 - The means of the fight is the measure of the pilot.
80% Rule 3 - That I survived is it's own reward.
20% Rule 3 - How I died is as important as how I survived.
80% Rule 4 - Dieing is unacceptable.
20% Rule 4 - Unlimited revenge waits in the hanger.
80% Rule 5 - I'm not as good as you so anything I do to you is acceptable to me.
20% Rule 5 - Oh gawd, another HOing, hoarding runtard.
The P51D makes an excellent tool for the 80% to abuse because it compliments the 5 rules.
-
^ Those are actually pretty good.
-
But if you don't keep turnfighting past the second turn, and take your cartoon death with cartoon honor, then you are just a picker and a runner! :rofl :bolt:
there's nothing I love more than turn fighting in a pony. but If i dont kill you after the second turn they I just look back and smile and get me another plane.
let me tell you a little secret, there is no honor in this game. we play for fun and that is it. if you want honor then join the boy scouts.
semp
-
I agree with what you are saying, but this is not really about limiting what people fly. It's about how they choose to use their ords. Karnak clarifies this several posts into this thread with the idea of perking bomb loadouts (not the plane), because of how the P-51 is abused as a high-speed bomb delivery vehicle, and in many cases a suicide one.
Yes, everyone in the LWMA should be able to fly the plane of their choice. But lifting a fighter to go fight is one thing, whereas taking heavy ponies to go crash into a CV, v-Base or fighter hangers, has a much greater impact on how other people get to play the game. The ability to have that kind of impact on the game should come with a cost, especially for failure (not landing) and that is, perk points.
By making those load-outs which have a high impact on the game cost perk points (tied into the ENY of the plane) you may see fewer suicide jabo runs, especially using low ENY planes like the Pony-D.
A cost for premium ord load-outs could extend to any AC, and might also be an effective method for cutting down on the ridiculous Lanc-stuka and low-alt suicide carpet-bombing runs many players make over and over, regardless of their dying every time.
:salute
you do realize that if they get rid of the 1000 (is it lbs or kgs?) then people will just up in heavy p47's which can carry THREE 1000 lbs bombs. so what exactly is going to change?. I remember many a night when I would kill 4 or 5 vtards in their p47's as they were on their way to a base. they would just refuse to engage until they delivered their bombs.
so I dont see what the big deal is about the ponyd having 1000lb bombs when there's others that have more. the idea of perking the ponyd with 2 bombs or lowering the eny or getting rid of the bombs is a stupid idea as they will just move on to another plane that can carry the same ords.
semp
-
^ Those are actually pretty good.
I don't think this is about the "survive at all costs" players, but more those who make NO attempt at survival. Suicide jabos, bomb-and-bailers, and low-alt suicide carpet bombing, in my opinion, all have a dramatic effect on how others get to play the game while seriously detracting from any sense of realistic combat.
Perks on heavy ords would put a tangible in-game cost to these suicide methods. If it limits the use for those who would rather die augering into a CV or hanger, or come in at 1000 feet and die in the ack, regardless of the cost (a death), then I think a perk cost for 1000lbers would be most welcome in the game.
And I doubt the bombers who fly to survive, especially the good ones, will feel any impact on their perks, as they'll still land more perks than they'd spend. Other than the B29, isn't a use for bomber perks in pretty short demand anyway? I mean, seriously, how many bomber perks must somebody like triple nines have?
Semp, I don't think jugs carry 3x1000, and are easier to stop than heavy ponies. But the bottom line, again, is it creates a COST to impact the game with suicide dweebery.
+1 again for the idea of perking ALL heavy bomb loads
Perhaps using a formula of some kind like 100/planeENY = PerkCost for 1000lbers?
:salute
-
you do realize that if they get rid of the 1000 (is it lbs or kgs?) then people will just up in heavy p47's which can carry THREE 1000 lbs bombs.
i thought 2x1000 and 1x500. :headscratch:
-
WOULD like to see some usage stats on the 51 as an attacker vs the Jug...
There are no such stats available.
However, we can look at kills of Air-to-Ground kills and Ground-to-Air deaths combines as a (weak) substitution:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/gkd.jpg)
Of course it's only showing part of the picture, especially in terms of offensive vs defensive attack missions. Spit 16s are mostly used defensively, while P-51 are much more being used on strikes into enemy territory.
-
i thought 2x1000 and 1x500. :headscratch:
still more ords and rockets and ammo than a fully loaded pony. and if you are gonna hit and run like lots of people claim, it wont be any difference between either plane.
semp
-
still more ords and rockets and ammo than a fully loaded pony. and if you are gonna hit and run like lots of people claim, it wont be any difference between either plane.
semp
If the P47 was anywhere near the P51D in terms of low level flying then it would be the norm since it can carry another 500 lb bomb and another pair of rockets, AND another pair of .50 cals with plenty more ammo to spare. However, the P51D can bring down a hanger all by its lonesome with its current max ordnance and once the ordnance is gone then it shines as a vulcher. The P51D can do it all better than the P47 down low in terms of plane performance, obviously the jug can bring more ordnance weight to the party but it isnt needed.
-
still more ords and rockets and ammo than a fully loaded pony. and if you are gonna hit and run like lots of people claim, it wont be any difference between either plane.
semp
If all they wanted was max load they would fly the P-47N/D-40 or P-38, but how often do you see that? The only times I can remember it was when they had eny restrictions on the Pony D.
Also there is a big difference between the other bombtrucks and the pony D, once a pony drops it will be 20-40mph quicker then all the others. And some like the lighting would be even slower as their rocket rail trees, cause high drag. Then you take into account skill levels in the average horde. The dive/compress/drop bomb before death dance would become much more common if the P-38 was the plane of choice, and not many know how to make the jug work without 3-4000ft to BnZ with.
The only reason the pony is used so much, is once the ords are away it is a good fighter with a forgiving attitude.
-
I still say FLY A FASTER PLANE. Or you could watch for a large dar bar and intercept it before it hits the base.
-
Yet we still have the lowest possible manifold values for many of the axis prop fighter types.
For example 1,98 ATA where used for !09k.
Setting 150 octane fuel for allied plane types and keeping the lowest values for axis type only makes for less diversity
Maybe one day I can turn with a Lancaster in an A8.
When the P51B entered the ETO it flew on 130 octane like it is modeled in the MA. The P51D entered service in the ETO using 150 octane. Why not have the P51D changed to 72" manfold and 150 octane with a perk of 20 - 30? The P51D in the ETO was not a 130 octane bird when it met the Dora or K4 like our P51D is in the MA. One could argue any allied fighter introduced June 44 on should be running 150 and perked.
A similare argument to change the spit14 to 21lbs boost and increase it's perk to match the Tempest along with the Tempest changed to 11lbs boost. British fighters in the 2nd Tactical over the continent at the same time as the P51D were running on 150.
And we know WEP is used as the standard "Combat Warp 12 Speed" in this game along with relyance on it to enable many exotic aerobatic combat manuvers that just wouldn't work very well without that little bit of torquy boost at the right choreographed moment. Not "War Emergency Power", especially since it repowers itself like a Mario Brothers power up token.
Make it the P51D the real humdinger it was and perk it appropriatly. If players still want to be runstangs let them do it in the P51B. It's just as competitive in the MA with all the non-perk rides minus 2-.50cal but, you have to tote around those bazooka tubes after you de-ack. So remember to bring escorts to fight and vulch for you to save you from the defending Brewsters.
-----------------------------------------------------
Deliveries of Grade 100/150 aviation fuel to Eighth Air Force fighter airfields commenced in June 1944. This coincidentally occured about the same time as the introduction of the P-51D into service. Even though the USAAF had cleared the P-51 for 75" Hg., the Eighth Air Force chose 72" Hg as the P-51's War Emergency Rating.
-
Save, please... when i was flying the D9, i had no problems in turning against ponies, nor catching them. Also, the A8 is the worst 190, by far... :)
Anyway, just to settle down, i would bet the 150 octane fuel will not be added. If you keep up the lamentation about this, that surely isnt the best you can do.
I hate the runstangs (and run-nineties, and the holala-s) just the same as you, but listen, here is the solution: D9 against the single ones, 262 against the mass of them.
-
There are no such stats available.
However, we can look at kills of Air-to-Ground kills and Ground-to-Air deaths combines as a (weak) substitution:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/gkd.jpg)
Of course it's only showing part of the picture, especially in terms of offensive vs defensive attack missions. Spit 16s are mostly used defensively, while P-51 are much more being used on strikes into enemy territory.
I was thinking of RL....mostly, WHY would you send a radiator plane to do risky low level stuff when the jug is available?
-
I was thinking of RL....mostly, WHY would you send a radiator plane to do risky low level stuff when the jug is available?
My understanding is late in the war they were running out of planes to shoot down in the air. Gotta use those bullets for something, I suppose.
-
If the P47 was anywhere near the P51D in terms of low level flying then it would be the norm since it can carry another 500 lb bomb and another pair of rockets, AND another pair of .50 cals with plenty more ammo to spare. However, the P51D can bring down a hanger all by its lonesome with its current max ordnance and once the ordnance is gone then it shines as a vulcher. The P51D can do it all better than the P47 down low in terms of plane performance, obviously the jug can bring more ordnance weight to the party but it isnt needed.
P-47D-40 or P-47N actually carry four more rockets than the P-51D in addition to the extra 500lb bomb and two .50 cals with lots of ammo. As to the P-38L, the rocket trees cost it 1mph on the deck after the rockets are gone, 344mph instead of 345mph.
I still say FLY A FASTER PLANE. Or you could watch for a large dar bar and intercept it before it hits the base.
Not everyone who isn't a major fan of the P-51D wants to fly La-7s.
-
P-47D-40 or P-47N actually carry four more rockets than the P-51D in addition to the extra 500lb bomb and two .50 cals with lots of ammo. As to the P-38L, the rocket trees cost it 1mph on the deck after the rockets are gone, 344mph instead of 345mph.Not everyone who isn't a major fan of the P-51D wants to fly La-7s.
Sorry, I was thinking a "pair of rockets per wing". Yes, the extra ordnance on the P47 was pointed out. The jug is a better ground pounder thanks to all the extra ords, but when a horde can assign a single P51D to a single hanger and get the job done THEN be on vulcher duty why take a jug that is over-kill for the role and a quite a bit behind the P51 down low in terms of CAP performance (turn, accelerate, climb, etc).
-
If all they wanted was max load they would fly the P-47N/D-40 or P-38, but how often do you see that? The only times I can remember it was when they had eny restrictions on the Pony D.
Also there is a big difference between the other bombtrucks and the pony D, once a pony drops it will be 20-40mph quicker then all the others. And some like the lighting would be even slower as their rocket rail trees, cause high drag. Then you take into account skill levels in the average horde. The dive/compress/drop bomb before death dance would become much more common if the P-38 was the plane of choice, and not many know how to make the jug work without 3-4000ft to BnZ with.
The only reason the pony is used so much, is once the ords are away it is a good fighter with a forgiving attitude.
If the P47 was anywhere near the P51D in terms of low level flying then it would be the norm since it can carry another 500 lb bomb and another pair of rockets, AND another pair of .50 cals with plenty more ammo to spare. However, the P51D can bring down a hanger all by its lonesome with its current max ordnance and once the ordnance is gone then it shines as a vulcher. The P51D can do it all better than the P47 down low in terms of plane performance, obviously the jug can bring more ordnance weight to the party but it isnt needed.
I totally agree with both of you guys. but remember the only reason they use the pony is not to fight in it. but to drop and run away. most people who fly the pony have no idea how to fly it. heck I have been flying it for almost 2 years now and I still have a lot to learn. but the guys who bring the ponyd with 2 1k bombs and rockets more than likely will drop and run or do it with 20 friends around, and then it wont matter if you are in a ponyd or the p47.
perking the pony, giving it a lower eny for ods or even taking the perkies away wont stop those who only want to horde in it. and that is where the problem is. people forget that you can always switch to another plane that will have just as much ords and run away.
fish how many times did we up a20's when the fh where down and killed the bunch of wanna be vulchers and pickers because once they dropped their ords and rockets they didnt know what to do as they couldnt fly their airplane.
semp
semp
-
I like it when the P-51ds fight. I even get amusement out of running down and killing a radar/fuel/troops/ammo porking P-51D in my ostensibly slow Mossie.
I'd just like more variety and if the P-51D usage trend isn't halted it may just get worse.
-
cant remember the last time I flew a pony until a coupla nights ago in MW, just a ludicrously easy plane to fly, aim, get kills in and land. even with 4 guns I 3-passed a set of B-26s without losing more than ~1k of E. headed towards a high 38 and after some rolling scissors foolery ended up in a stall fight. whoever said the pony cant fly under 200mph earlier is having a laugh - its docile and predictably under 100mph with very usable flaps and good acceleration. slowly gained advantage but got bored so decided to disengage. I was 2k away and doing 350 before the 38 even got pointed my way ...
-
cant remember the last time I flew a pony until a coupla nights ago in MW, just a ludicrously easy plane to fly, aim, get kills in and land. even with 4 guns I 3-passed a set of B-26s without losing more than ~1k of E. headed towards a high 38 and after some rolling scissors foolery ended up in a stall fight. whoever said the pony cant fly under 200mph earlier is having a laugh - its docile and predictably under 100mph with very usable flaps and good acceleration. slowly gained advantage but got bored so decided to disengage. I was 2k away and doing 350 before the 38 even got pointed my way ...
That would be me, saying that under 250mph a 51D starts to dog it in the turn fight. Being in the mid war arena you would have been flying a B, and a B is a different plane, that (to my knowledge) is a little more maneuverable than the D pony at slow speeds. Try the same in a D at low altitude and you will find yourself in a heap of trouble real fast as soon as you lose your high speed rate of turn. too many planes out accelerate the D at ground level.
-
catch us if u can :joystick: :airplane:
FIFY
-
ponys are by no means uber. they are fast, so they have escapability. But they are average turners, average climbers, and average guns. Kill ratios for Ponies is only about 1, (recallection, didn't look it up) and my kill ratio against ponies last tour was about 4 to 1.
I just think a lot of folks fly them because or romantic notions and escapability. I dont think eny changes will effect their usage. I think that if score took into account eny, then it might. but eny enough wont change anything.
my two cents :salute
-
WOULD like to see some usage stats on the 51 as an attacker vs the Jug...WHY would you use a deep-penetration escort as a jabo when you have the now increasingly obsolete, NON-radiator Jug?
Earl Miller was an AW pilot who actually flew P-39s and P-47s in combat in the Med and over the Po valley in Italy. He said they
ALWAYS carried 500 lbers. In fact he would trim his aircraft to "unload" at 3000 when he dive bombed specifically because the weight
of the bombs would allow his to drop accurately at that speed and altitude.
-
Sorry, I was thinking a "pair of rockets per wing". Yes, the extra ordnance on the P47 was pointed out. The jug is a better ground pounder thanks to all the extra ords, but when a horde can assign a single P51D to a single hanger and get the job done THEN be on vulcher duty why take a jug that is over-kill for the role and a quite a bit behind the P51 down low in terms of CAP performance (turn, accelerate, climb, etc).
I very rarely see anyone on vulcher duty, It amazes me how much effort goes into taking out the FH's (which are down for 15 minutes) vs simply deacking the field, which is 30min (15 for manned) or more.
But it just doesnt happen.
-
I haven't read every post but my observation is that not all P-51D drivers are carrying ord. At the same time those that aren't are rarely flying alone. When I run into them there are 2, 3, 4, 5 or more and they are willing to fight my Spit. I say God bless them. They've at least gotten beyond fighting buildings. I've fought many multi Pony groups. It's often a chess match and it's fun.
The P-51 (along with the Spit) was probably the most iconic fighter aircraft of WWII. Sorry other fighter supporters; the Zekes, 109's and 190's are close seconds but lets face it; when you think of WWII these birds are most commonly mentioned. To try to limit it's use in the game is futile no matter how you attempt it.
I will say this... after reading the beginning of this thread I'm considering parking my Spits, 109's and 190's and spending some time in a D Pony. My brothers would be proud. One built a (very large) RC of Cripes A Mighty and the other chastises me regularly for not flying American planes in the game.
-
I very rarely see anyone on vulcher duty, It amazes me how much effort goes into taking out the FH's (which are down for 15 minutes) vs simply deacking the field, which is 30min (15 for manned) or more.
But it just doesnt happen.
I can speak to this.
most vulchers do not de-ack. if they dont get the hangars down, they just fly thru the ack, desperate for that one kill of that guy rolling down a runway at 20mph. I catch a fair amount of them. probably half of the 400 kills i got in field guns last month.
i've had the signature "kill the manned ack" for at least 2 years. it still amazes me how people do not do it.
last tour, 411 kills in 37mm field gun:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsin.php?playername=kvuo75&kcnt=411&selectTour=LWTour153&pindex=36
why am I getting almost as many p51d's as lancs?
-
Some guys in manned acks are vicious. The problem with de-acking is that a cannon bird is required, or alternatively - rockets. The .50s are just not effective in this job. If you came in a pony and fired the rockets at the dar and hangars, you do not have effective means for de-acking. With very little practice, deacking by rockets is very easy and effective - 1 rocket per gun. If several planes are diving on the acks at the same time, the risk is minimal and several guns can be hit in one pass. When I take an F6F I often load rockets just for this purpose.
-
Scourge unite, clear the skies of non believers!
-
(http://www.adlerhorst-hangar.com/images/BF109K4_yellow5.gif)
K4. Ponies hate Taters.
-
(http://www.adlerhorst-hangar.com/images/BF109K4_yellow5.gif)
K4. Ponies hate Taters.
A bit of a dilemma, considering K-4's are horrible at maneuvers along the speeds which the typical MA-environment P-51s are at... whereas Fw190Ds would be better suited at those speeds, but then quickly fall under trouble once the speed is down and overshoot maneuvering begins.
That being said, in a very average environment, the quickest way to dispatch of P-51s would be simply the La-7. Equally hated and fast enough to catch P-51s before they make their escape.
-
There are no such stats available.
However, we can look at kills of Air-to-Ground kills and Ground-to-Air deaths combines as a (weak) substitution:
Of course it's only showing part of the picture, especially in terms of offensive vs defensive attack missions. Spit 16s are mostly used defensively, while P-51 are much more being used on strikes into enemy territory.
What does air to ground kills only look like............ ? from my point of view I might suffer many deaths (in e.g an La7) fighting another AC low over enemy wirbles/ostwinds/gguns but have never carried ord against them.
-
A bit of a dilemma, considering K-4's are horrible at maneuvers along the speeds which the typical MA-environment P-51s are at... whereas Fw190Ds would be better suited at those speeds, but then quickly fall under trouble once the speed is down and overshoot maneuvering begins.
That being said, in a very average environment, the quickest way to dispatch of P-51s would be simply the La-7. Equally hated and fast enough to catch P-51s before they make their escape.
Come on, the K4 is perfectly maneuverable at 500+ :D (Not to mention, trimming is not even needed when they are just flying straight)
Also, it have been proved many many times, the 190D can turn with and outturn the pony at the stall speed, and do it in the most elegant way. Just use her control surfaces with a little bit of fantasy ;)
Because Dora CAN dance!
-
Because Dora CAN dance!
...like a constipating hippo.
-
Tell this to those lalas, ponies, jugs, 38s, 109s and even some spits who got killed in full flaps scissors situations, then called me a cheater.
-
Tell this to those lalas, ponies, jugs, 38s, 109s and even some spits who got killed in full flaps scissors situations, then called me a cheater.
Debrody, you are quite possibly the best Dora pilot to ever leave the game and still hang around on the forums. Good luck and good hunting! :salute
-
Debrody, you are quite possibly the best Dora pilot to ever leave the game and still hang around on the forums. Good luck and good hunting! :salute
I never seen him fly a Dora, only 109g6 probably got tired of pony's running from him heh
-
I never seen him fly a Dora, only 109g6 probably got tired of pony's running from him heh
Do you send these gems from the cockpit of your F-18, or do you wait until you're on the ground?
-
Do you send these gems from the cockpit of your F-18, or do you wait until you're on the ground?
Jebus that one is getting old and has nothing to do with the thread. Give the guy a break already. ;)
-
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2267/tumblrm3rv98okbz1rvh7ee.jpg)
:neener:
-
kvuo75, that is a P-47 erroneously identified as a Mustang.