Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on November 14, 2012, 12:52:12 PM
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Hello,
On the topic of convergence I'd like your feedback please. I have used and continue to use multiple settings for various planes and environments.
* With the .50 cal birds sometimes I'll set them all to 400. Other times I'll overlap them: 400,375,350 OR even as crazy as 400,500,600 etc.
* With cannons (20mm) I usually set them to 325. Sometimes though, with multi-cannon birds and going against a horde I may use 500 and 600 OR even 550 and 650 (no time to dogfight or lose any E kinda flying).
* With .303 birds I put them all on 250 OR start them at 250 and overlap outward.
Here is the kicker...I have been successful with ALL these settings (in the right scenario of course). :eek:
What are your findings and practices with convergence?
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
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Everything to 300. :aok
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Everything to 300.
titanic3 300 is not displayed as a range for an enemy target during flight (800,600,400...). So at what range do you start to shoot?
Thanks.
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I stagger the 50's 25 yds apart. 375, 350, 325. W/Jug when i use 4 guns, I add 400.
Works great. You don't have to put em down to get the kill. A good first bite frequently gets me the message that I killed so and so after I'm off to find someone else to take a chunk out of.
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I've left my convergence at default for the P-38s and fire at 400 yards or less to greatly increase my chances of a kill on the first burst.
ack-ack
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I set the convergence settings for the vertical and don't really care about horizontal convergence.
Mine are set so all shells converge in the vertical very far out for buff hunting planes and it seems to work just as well close up......but then most of the guns on the planes I fly are in the fuselage.
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Everything for air to air stuff is set to 300 and I do not fire once the target shows 600. The only exception is when I am in a 8 gun P47 performing escort duty. Then I set convergent to 400.
If I am bomber hunting then everything is at 400 yards, save for the Me410's 50mm which is set to 600.
If I am pounding grounds targets then I have everything set to 400.
K.I.S.S.
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titanic3 300 is not displayed as a range for an enemy target during flight (800,600,400...). So at what range do you start to shoot?
Thanks.
The moment 400 switches to 200, that's the 300 mark. Likewise, when 600 switches to 400, it is 500. 800 to 600, it is 700. When I shoot depends on what plane I'm in.
MK108s, 400 or less.
MG151s, 400 or less.
.50 Cals, 600 or less.
Hispanos, 300 or less. (the wing mounted ones anyways)
Ho-5, 400 or less.
MK103s, 800 or less.
.303s, 200 or less.
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50. cals really don't matter to me, but generally I have 50 cals between 350-450
Hispanos probably 350
German/Jap 20's either 350 or 650
MK108 300 even
.303's 300
Generally for most BB's that go along with cannon rides Ex. Ki84, 109k4, 190's, etc. I will set the BB's to the same convergence as my cannons.
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50. cals really don't matter to me, but generally I have 50 cals between 350-450
Hispanos probably 350
German/Jap 20's either 350 or 650
MK108 300 even
.303's 300
Generally for most BB's that go along with cannon rides Ex. Ki84, 109k4, 190's, etc. I will set the BB's to the same convergence as my cannons.
I'm just curious... but why are you all over the map for the same type of plane (fighters). Do you aim differently based on which aircraft you're in? I would think that you'd aim the same way if you were dog fighting in a Spitfire, Ki-84, zeke, 109, P51, F4U, etc, because your shots are usually all within a specified target zone (200-400, etc). If your shots are going to be different because of the type of ACM's you'll be using (turn and saddle up vs boom n zoom snap shot) then I can see the difference. I'm just curious.
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The moment 400 switches to 200, that's the 300 mark.
I thought it was 399?
0-199
200-399
400-599
600-799
800-999
#S#
Josh
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I thought it was 399?
0-199
200-399
400-599
600-799
800-999
#S#
Josh
Hmm, could be, last I saw a similar topic, someone said 300. Either way, I don't pay much attention to distance. Generally, I'll shoot at the ranges I mentioned, but if I think I can hit them from 800 with a tater, I'll try it anyway. It's more about "feeling" the bullet rather "aiming" the bullet. Not sure how to describe it exactly, but I when I fire, I walk the tracers in, I don't aim for a specific point.
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I'm just curious... but why are you all over the map for the same type of plane (fighters). Do you aim differently based on which aircraft you're in? I would think that you'd aim the same way if you were dog fighting in a Spitfire, Ki-84, zeke, 109, P51, F4U, etc, because your shots are usually all within a specified target zone (200-400, etc). If your shots are going to be different because of the type of ACM's you'll be using (turn and saddle up vs boom n zoom snap shot) then I can see the difference. I'm just curious.
Well yes, I aim differently depending on what aircraft I am flying because, most planes have different guns, therefore different gun trajectories, therefore different leads, convergences, etc.
ACM plays a big part as how hard both you and the enemy obviously play a role in how much you will lead that specific plane in that specific maneuver.
My shots will range all the way up to 600-1000 yards, this of course depending on what plane I am in, and what the situation is, but it is rare I shoot outside of ~700 yards, my average is 200-600 yard shots.
You wouldn't aim the same was in a spitfire as you would a 109, zeke, ki84, etc. as the guns are totally different.
If that makes sense? Anyway hope I answered your question :cheers:
:salute
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I thought it was 399?
0-199
200-399
400-599
600-799
800-999
#S#
Josh
No, Titanic has it correct.
The icon counter switches from D400 to D200 at 300 yards (or 299, I forget).
Thedistance midway between the icon counters is the distance they all switch.
This can be verified with the film viewer.
Setting your convergence for either 300 or 500 yards allows you to capitalize on "knowing" you're firing at convergence distance if you fire right around the time the icon changes from D400 to D200, etc... Essentially 300 and 500 yards are convergence "sweet spots" with the 300 yards setting substantially superior IMO.
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ME262 450/500
American .50s 400
FW190's and 109's all guns 400
All Japanese except for the niki, 250 cannon, 350 mgs
Niki 250/300
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The icon counter switches from D400 to D200 at 300 yards (or 299, I forget). Thedistance midway between the icon counters is the distance they all switch.
This forum rocks! I did not know that. I learn so much in here.
Thanks for all the posts. :salute
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Well yes, I aim differently depending on what aircraft I am flying because, most planes have different guns, therefore different gun trajectories, therefore different leads, convergences, etc.
ACM plays a big part as how hard both you and the enemy obviously play a role in how much you will lead that specific plane in that specific maneuver.
My shots will range all the way up to 600-1000 yards, this of course depending on what plane I am in, and what the situation is, but it is rare I shoot outside of ~700 yards, my average is 200-600 yard shots.
You wouldn't aim the same was in a spitfire as you would a 109, zeke, ki84, etc. as the guns are totally different.
If that makes sense? Anyway hope I answered your question :cheers:
:salute
Average shots are 200-600. :aok
Ok, I was just curious. I find it fascinating that people really think that they can judge the difference in velocity and trajectory (outside convergence) to the point that that they drastically change their convergence. Have you ever done the .target and seen the different between Hispanos and say Japanese or German 20mm? Try it and you'll see how similar they are. The German 30mm and the 37mm's are really the only black sheep in the family in terms of trajectory (using typical ranges under 600 yards). Otherwise the .30 cals, .50 cals, and 20mm's are all very close, too close in my opinion to make the minute calculation changes in a knife fight (200-400 yards). To each his own.
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Average shots are 200-600. :aok
Ok, I was just curious. I find it fascinating that people really think that they can judge the difference in velocity and trajectory (outside convergence) to the point that that they drastically change their convergence. Have you ever done the .target and seen the different between Hispanos and say Japanese or German 20mm? Try it and you'll see how similar they are. The German 30mm and the 37mm's are really the only black sheep in the family in terms of trajectory (using typical ranges under 600 yards). Otherwise the .30 cals, .50 cals, and 20mm's are all very close, too close in my opinion to make the minute calculation changes in a knife fight (200-400 yards). To each his own.
If I spend a long time in one particular plane (I always switch back and forth between 109s and P38s), I found that after 2 or 3 days, I start to lose my "aim" in the other plane. Especially with the MK108s. Half of aiming an landing your shots (IMO), is memory. After a while, you start to remember the bullet's path and if you don't believe me, turn off tracers. I experimented with that once, I turn off tracers after flying the K4 exclusively for a week or two, I found that I was still landing shots within 400 yards in 5-6 rounds burst. After I switched to a P38 for a week and came back to the K4, I could not hit anything past 200 yards, I had lost my "memory" of the K4. At least that's how I see it anyway.
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What about the damage value on purely kinetic rounds? Although I have my .50's set at 400... and almost everything else that way as well... I almost always end up firing in closer. The only reason I don't bring them back in a touch is it seems like the value of being able to make a more accurate long shot (say to get someone to break off their pursuit of a friendly, etc) is greater than the extra punch afforded by hitting with a more harmonized convergence at closer range. I would say most of my shots are between 100 and 300, and I am really only using the P-51B until I get it down right... would bringing them in to 300 help?
I bring the .303s in purely because of the harder punch at close range, does anyone have any realistic damage values for purely kinetic rounds at various ranges?
Are all 20mm rounds in AH modeled as explosive? I have been led to believe that they are.
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G6: cannon was at 275, MGs at 400
D9: all at 350
262: all at 250
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all my guns..... all planes I set to 300
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G6: cannon was at 275, MGs at 400
Do those settings match ballistics better, or do you fire MGs at long range and cannon in close?
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The .30 cals and .50 cal MG's loose their ability to do damage over range simply due to the loss of kinetic energy. The .30 cals are great when in close (250 and in), remember they typically fire 3X's faster than the .50 cals, but are 1/3rd the damage value.
I do believe all of the 20mm in AH are of the "HE" variety. Some have a small TNT charge in the projectile and some simply have a thin jacket that one it contacts a medium it shreds apart acting like an HE warhead. I very little information as to which country used which for what projectile. Just know the a single .30 cal bullet is about 1/3rd the power of a single .50 cal bullet which in turn is about 1/4th as effective as a 20mm round. Also keep in mind when using the MG's that a direct hit is needed to cause damage where as a 20mm can miss and still do damage thanks to the "splash" damage being modeled. This can be seen when de-acking a field or town, a single 20mm round somewhere inside the gun pit will destroy the ack, while the MG's needs to directly hit the ack gun to destroy it.
I's be happy to forward my latest "Weapons Damage" chart to anyone who PM's me, it will show the damage value for every weapon in AH (not the Me410's 50mm though, I have yet to test it). I tested them all from scratch. I think Butcher has a copy on his website (or did)
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The only reason I don't bring them back in a touch is it seems like the value of being able to make a more accurate long shot (say to get someone to break off their pursuit of a friendly, etc) is greater than the extra punch afforded by hitting with a more harmonized convergence at closer range. I would say most of my shots are between 100 and 300, and I am really only using the P-51B until I get it down right... would bringing them in to 300 help?
Seems like the value... Is the key point of your statement.
To each his own, but...
In addition to convergence HTC has modeled dispersion. This means that the "cluster" or "group size" of any individual gun gets larger or more spread out the further away you shoot. If the gun was perfectly stationary when it was fired at say 200yds, not every bullet would go into the same hole. They'd all hit within a fairly small circle, though. As an example, let's say they all hit within a 6" diameter circle...
If you double the range (and fire at 400 yards) with that same, stationary gun the group size will get larger. The bullets will no longer all impact within that 6" circle, but will now spread out to hit roughly within a 12" circle.
What that means is that if you compare the group size of a 400yd convergence fired at 400yds with a 300yd convergence fired at 300yds, the latter will be a "tighter" (more effective) group. That's "first". Second, the bullets lose energy with range, which once again gives the title of "more effective" to the 300yd setting.
Next, the 400yd setting is at its most-effective at 400 yards, with some loss of effectiveness at every other range (even for closer shots). The same argument can and should be made for the 300yd convergence setting, obviously, but... You state that you generally fire between 100 and 300yds... That means you'll essentially NEVER get full effect with the 400yd setting, and as pointed out, even if you do it'll be more spread out and have lost more energy... With the 300yd setting, you're going to have more effect, simply because you have a tighter, higher energy group.
Next, back to dispersal and convergence... With the 300yd setting, as you fire further than 300yds, your rounds will begin to spread out again... However, due to dispersal the effect at 400yds isn't a whole lot worse than than the effect with the 400yd setting. The primary difference is that instead of one big spread-out group you'll have two groups.
Taken to extremes, it's easy to see this if you fire on bombers in a top-down attack with a 300yd setting at say 600 yards. At this range, your two groups will have spread out to be 15' apart (double the distance of convergence means your groups will have spread back out to match the distance between your right and left wing guns). That 15' spread will still land on the bomber assuming you can hit it where the wings meet the fuselage... You'll see the group tighten as you close to 300, and by then you'll have full impact on the bomber. One quick pass with 6 .50's is about all it takes to kill any bomber in the game this way...
6 x .50's fired at 300yds with a 300yd setting is chainsaw effective against fighters.
In short though, you're already somewhat hindered by only having 4 x .50's (not that it matters; fly what you like and learn to be effective in it). Why hinder yourself further with a 400yd setting?
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I fly the Hurricane MkIa almost exclusively . In knife fights i find the 8 X .303 browning's below 250yrds ( I set convergence to 200yrds) to be very effective. Yesterday a quick 1/2 second burst stripped the wings off a spit IX and that was at 100yrds so I saw strikes on both wing roots as they had not converged yet . I don't go by the distance tag but by how wide the enemy is in the sights . I follow the example of 303 polish squadron RAF : " Get the B@stard to fill up your cockpit then fire on the piece of filth. "
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Do those settings match ballistics better, or do you fire MGs at long range and cannon in close?
It was purely practical. MGs had a load of ammo (300/gun) so with the longer convergence, i could spray a bit more accurately on the spixteens trying to run away. Also, on the close range shots, when i used my cannons too, they were still hitting the same spot.
Not saying its the way to follow though.
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It was purely practical. MGs had a load of ammo (300/gun) so with the longer convergence, i could spray a bit more accurately on the spixteens trying to run away. Also, on the close range shots, when i used my cannons too, they were still hitting the same spot.
Not saying its the way to follow though.
I almost never use MGs with the cannons in 109s. Even with a 20mm set up. I find 1x 20mm is still plenty firepower to kill most fighters. Firing the MGs makes me confused on which tracer to pay attention to. Now if we had colored tracers, that'd be different.
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I wish we had a "900" setting.
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What about the damage value on purely kinetic rounds? Although I have my .50's set at 400... and almost everything else that way as well... I almost always end up firing in closer. The only reason I don't bring them back in a touch is it seems like the value of being able to make a more accurate long shot (say to get someone to break off their pursuit of a friendly, etc) is greater than the extra punch afforded by hitting with a more harmonized convergence at closer range. I would say most of my shots are between 100 and 300, and I am really only using the P-51B until I get it down right... would bringing them in to 300 help?
Mtnman's got it pretty much dead on IMO when it comes to gunnery.
I just figured I'd comment because I used to have the same train of thought as you do in this aspect, and I used to set my .50s at 450 as well for the same reasons.
What I found when I shortened up my convergence was snapshots on maneuvering planes started to work a lot better for me because the rounds from both sides were closer together in a tighter group rather than the two streams being relatively spread out inside of about 350 or so.
I find I can spark a guy to get him to turn pretty much as well out to 600-800 with my convergence set at 300 as I could with it set at 450. With the rounds dispersed like they are, it's pretty rare for me to knock off anything meaningful over 600 with wing mounted guns anyways. YMMV of course, but I found shortening it up felt like it improved my damage in close where my 'serious' attempts at actually killing them occur. It also seemed to have little to no impact on my effectiveness when I'd shoot at buffs from further out.
My feeling is you're not going to damage much with .50s if the enemy is 600 or further due to dispersion and damage on MGs going down with distance unless it's a buff and you're on the way in.
I set .50s and 20mms to 300, .303s to 250 and don't fire outside of 300, and taters at 350.
Wiley.
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Thanks mtnmn and Wiley!
I've been trying to get better at firing ~400yd, but I think I am going to up a few times offline with 300 and check it out.
Also, thanks for that info Debrody, going to be awhile before I migrate over to something else to fly but that is good to know!
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Average shots are 200-600. :aok
Ok, I was just curious. I find it fascinating that people really think that they can judge the difference in velocity and trajectory (outside convergence) to the point that that they drastically change their convergence. Have you ever done the .target and seen the different between Hispanos and say Japanese or German 20mm? Try it and you'll see how similar they are. The German 30mm and the 37mm's are really the only black sheep in the family in terms of trajectory (using typical ranges under 600 yards). Otherwise the .30 cals, .50 cals, and 20mm's are all very close, too close in my opinion to make the minute calculation changes in a knife fight (200-400 yards). To each his own.
When I am leading a shot I notice a massive difference between Ki84/German 20's and hispanos
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thats what I was thinking, unloaded and level they may all seem similar but when you're pulling lead at 5G theres a much bigger difference between them - the higher KE rounds dont drop away anywhere near as quick.
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Be sure and remember that a 20mm warhead's velocity and weight (kinetic energy ), is different from it's ability to do damage. The projectile is not effected by velocity unlike FMJ's of the .30 and .50 cal MG's.
Here is a link to a website that does a great job at explaining the different 20mm rounds of WWII.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/an_introduction_to_collecting_20.htm
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400 across the board.
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Aces High General Types of Guns
MG
Type97.7.7mm..750m/s...Bullet=13.2g
Brit.303............762m/s...Bullet=11.3g
MG17 7.92........865m/s...Bullet=11.5g
MG131.13mm....750m/s...Bullet=76g
AN/M2.50.........850m/s...Bullet=112g
UB-12.7...........850m/s...Bullet=64g
Type3 13.2.......789m/s...Bullet=52g
20mm
Type 99-1.....600m/s...Bullet=200g
MG151/20.....720m/s...Bullet=205g
Ho-1 20mm...750m/s...Bullet=164g
Ho-5 20mm...750m/s...Bullet=84g
ShVAK 20mm.770m/s...Bullet=96g
Type 99-2.....750m/s...Bullet=222g
Hs404 20mm.880m/s...Bullet=257g
30-37mm
Mk108 30mm.500m/s...Bullet=336g M-Gesch
M4-37mm......610m/s...Bullet=608g HE
Mk103 30mm.860m/s...Bullet=336g M-Gesch
NS-37 37mm.880m/s...Bullet=760g AP
NS-37 37mm.900m/s...Bullet=735g HE
Time to Target in seconds.
---Target---100---200---300---400---500---600--yards
Bullet Speed
---500m/s---.20---.40---.60---.80---1.0---1.2--seconds
---600m/s---.16---.36---.54---.72---.91---1.0
---720m/s---.15---.31---.45---.61---.76---.91
---750m/s---.14---.29---.44---.59---.72---.87
---762m/s---
---850m/s---.13---.26---.39---.52---.65---.77
---865m/s---
---880m/s---.12---.25---.38---.51---.64---.76
Combat Speeds 90 degree left<--->right Travel in Yards.
--Time----.10--.20--.30--.40--.50--.60---.70--.80--.90---1.0--1.5--seconds
Speed
250mph---11---22---33---45---56---67---78---89--100--112--168--yards
300mph---14---29---43---58---73---87--102--116--131--146--219
350mph---17---34---51---68---85--102--119--136--153--171--256
400mph---19---39---58---78---97--117--136--156--175--195--292
Speed mph to yd/sec
250mph = 112 yd/sec
300mph = 146 yd/sec
350mph = 171 yd/sec
400mph = 195 yd/sec
450mph = 220 yd/sec
Fighter Wingspans
P51D ---12.3 yards
109 -----11.0 yards
Spit ---- 12.0 yards
P47 ---- 13.6 yards
Fw190 - 11.5 yards
P38 ---- 17.3 yards
A6m5-- 13.0 yards
P40E --- 12.3 yards
Gunsight Rings at Range
50mil at 100yds = 4.0yds
50mil at 200yds = 9.7 yds
50mil at 400yds = 20 yds
50mil at 600yds = 30 yds
60mil at 100yds = 6.5yds
60mil at 200yds = 13 yds
60mil at 400yds = 26 yds
60mil at 600yds = 36 yds
100mil at 100yds = 8.3yds
100mil at 200yds = 19 yds
100mil at 400yds = 40 yds
100mil at 600yds = 60 yds
120mil at 100yds = 13yds
120mil at 200yds = 26yds
120mil at 400yds = 52yds
120mil at 600yds = 66yds
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If you fly auto level at Max Cruise from the E6B and pull up the offline target, your fighter's centerline will be alined level with the center of the target. Test your convergence patterns at 200, 300 and 400 if you are looking for pattern densities for air to air against fighters. Pull convergence out past 400 for bombers and ground straffing.
.target range(1-36,000) heading(0-359) azmuth (0-359)
Flying east at Max Cruise to test 300 yards (.target 300 90)
North=0, East=90, South=180, West=180
Each ring on the Offline Target is 10ft wide.
Because of different (initV) between dissimilare rounds like the german MG versus Cannons, you see armerors diagrams showing MG set to 400m and cannon to 550m. This gave a combined trajectory sweet spot 40cm above the gunsight centerline at about 250-300m for close fighter combat with a known 550m convergence spot with the gunsight level line for shooting bombers when the cannon rounds dropped back down through the sight line. Testing combinations of convergence harmonizations at 200, 300, 400 to see how they density pattern on full zoom will give you an idea of what to expect within reason in the game.
The closer into the wingroot your wing guns are like the FW's, your shooting style technique will be more like shooting with a 109 or yak. Choosing your convergence combinations at that point is an attempt to verticaly tighten your pattern between 300-450 since horizontaly your wingroot cannon are only a bit wider spread than your hood MG.
A unique hybrid of this is the C.205. Test it offline against the target with the MG at 325 and Cannon at 400. 200, 300, 400 autolevel and first shoot MG then shoot cannon and watch the patterns.
In this game wing only guns need to have a tight patterning whatever convergence range you choose. I've experimented setting multiple guns 50, 75, 100 yards apart in convergence. 25 yard differences seem to not allow cons to fly between the rounds in the game. Wing gun convergence suffers most from not setting your tightest density to the range at which you fight. Most of us shoot at each other between 250-350.
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titanic3 300 is not displayed as a range for an enemy target during flight (800,600,400...). So at what range do you start to shoot?
Thanks.
You trust/depend on the displayed icon range? :confused: I use the gunsight, bustr has written up about it a few times on these forums in detail the methodoligy of it, but you train yourself and then through practice and use become a lot more proficient (and accurate) at guaging your targets distance via its displayed ratio through your gunsight recticle.
Oops, nm.
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400 or less for me, up close and personal :lol