Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Randy1 on November 30, 2012, 07:31:48 AM
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High 109s and 190s are eating my lunch. Here is a common situation that I get beat. I am in a P47M say at 5000 feet above the ground say at 250 MPH climbing up or just picking up speed heading for a distant enemy base or a dogfight. I see a 109, 190 or well, really, any fighter say 3000 feet over my plane. They dive in and it seems my first move gets me shoot every time.
What maneuver should I make first to avoid being shot and a second move to give me a chance to have a good shooting position?
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For a 109, take advantage of it's bad performance at the high speeds it will be at in a dive. A 109 becomes sluggish at high speeds. A 190 will almost always be piloted by an inexperienced pilot with poor gunnery skills. They will just dive straight to you with too much speed and blow right on by.
I find making a hard break turn will defeat most diving attacks since they won't be able to make the turn at high speeds. Keep an eye on your opponent though. If he's smart then he'll see that he won't make the shot and pull back up (usually performing a high yo-yo) and re-engage from a better position. If you see this, level off and start a slow climb away from them. You want to take their altitude advantage away first either by getting co-alt or by getting them to make a mistake and come down to your alt. You will be flying defensive until you accomplish this. You may get a small chance to go offensive with a snapshot on the overshoot though, but do not follow them into a climb if you miss your shot.
-Do not try to climb with them when they overshoot, you will stall out before them and be an easy target.
-Try not to get stuck turning directly below them.
-Make tight turns INTO the attack to thwart the attack or give them the least amount of time to fire.
-Climb away from your opponent to either get co-alt or get them to make a mistake and come down to your alt.
-Let them make the first move. When they dive, make your move. If they stop their dive, stop you maneuver and continue to climb co-alt with them.
This is what has worked for me. I'm not good at explaining things, sorry if it's hard to understand or if I got something wrong. I'm sure someone has a better way of dealing with higher cons. A real trainer will be by shortly to give a better answer :) .
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Practice SA. The trick is spotting them before it's too late. If you had saw them at 6K, you wouldve already started to take defensive measures.
If you do get jumped like in the scenario you described, stop climbing, dive or level out and get to at least 300mph (in every plane). Once the enemy begins his attack, split S into the direction of the attacker. The lower you are beneath their nose, the steeper they have to dive and the more difficult their shot is.
Rinse and repeat this step until you have equalized the E or he screws up and offers you a guns solution.
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Latrobe's advice is good. Bear in mind, there are many ways to go about BnZ defense. I don't use Titanic's approach because it loses alt aggressively. If you've got alt to play with, and you're against a higher 109, it has its advantages because it keeps the fight fast, where a P47 is better off against a 109. It does work and is a very effective way of definitely avoiding the shot, I just personally don't like the alt loss.
To add to what's been said, based on the scenario you described the first thing you should do when you see a bandit is go level. If you're really slow, like on autoclimb, maybe even go into a shallow dive to get some speed up. Getting up to decent speed (around 300) initially is more important than alt.
When defending against a guy with alt, I feel it's important to avoid the natural tendency to want to climb hard. If you do that, you're making yourself an easier target. My normal schtick is to turn toward the guy nose slightly low to ruin his shot. I'm typically wanting him coming in from about 2 o'clock high or so when he's in range for the shot. As he gets to around 800 yards, I also either pull up, or push down. You never want to be moving in a straight line when he takes his shot.
Another thing you want to do, is if he is in gunnery range you want to roll your plane so it's skinny to him. Roll so your wings are in line with him or close to in line so he has a smaller target to shoot at. This is easiest to illustrate in the P38. From the top, it's a freaking HUGE target. Roll so you're sideways to him, it's much much smaller. Jugs make a pretty big target from the top too.
Your goal when someone's BnZing you is to equalize your E with his. You have to balance that with moving enough for him to miss you. That's the tricky part. The attacker is trying to anticipate where you will be to put his bullets in front of you. Your job is to move in such a way that he guesses wrong.
To be safest, you can haul hard on the stick, so your plane is turning hard when he gets within gunnery range. The downside with that is you bleed a lot of E doing it. I recommend in the beginning, turn more aggressively to be sure to get out of his way. It costs you more E, but you'll survive.
As you become better at reading planes on the way in, you will get a feel for the timing you need to have to move in such a way he can't get guns on. I actually start my setup for him to miss me when he's about 2000 yards out. I rarely pull more than 2 g's to slip a BnZer. If I'm otherwise occupied and he surprises me, then I have to pull harder.
That comes with practice though. I spent about 6-8 months when I started this game almost constantly intentionally looking for high bandits to practice my defense. I consider mine passable, but I still get tagged every once in a while by guys with good gunnery.
The reason I try for the smoother, E retaining turns is because my goal is to get him to miss, and while he's resetting, shallow climb away from him. I shallow climb at about 1-1.5k/minute, and only if I'm above 250mph. Once my indicated hits 250 I reduce my climb rate to maintain it if he's not pressing, or start turning back into him if he's coming back.
The shallower of an angle he has to get to you, the easier of a time you have avoiding his attack. I just want to reiterate one point Latrobe mentioned, the absolute WORST place to be is directly down from a higher bandit. From directly above you, it is the easiest possible position for him to get guns on you.
tl;dr: Make smooth, E retaining turns to avoid his gunnery, and shallow climb away from him when you're able. Keep your speed up when you're able.
Wiley.
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That was a great read on all of the replies. They were clear replies and easy to understand.
One strong point I see in the replies is don't show your hand too soon or the attacker will have time to adjust. I had not really thought about that point before. In my mind was, move quickly and that was usually without pinning down the attacker's intent.
I also picked up in y'all's replies to not only be vigilant outside the plane but be equally important to watch those gauges. I know I have at times looked down and had to search the panel for the airspeed and or altimeter at a crucial moment.
Give me a few days to work all of this into my flight skills and I will post back on how it is going.
Thanks for the help.
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here is a good film of dealing with a high con....then dealing with more that get ALT on ya....
its in the Ki84 so a bit different then the 47....
my first bit of advice is get into a plane that can really fight :D
http://www.mediafire.com/?5d757pf7xd3et23
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Oh! Forgot one of the other most important things. If you're in a position where you survived the first pass, and he's making multiple ones after that, don't do exactly the same thing to avoid every time. Adjust the angles slightly, and sometimes greatly. You can sometimes get away with 2 times doing it similar, most people will expect it the third though, and anticipate better.
Myself, if I'm BnZing someone, I get into the doublethink and assume if his second avoidance is starting off looking the same, he's probably going to do the same thing again. Sometimes I'll do it identically twice if I think I can get away with it, then use the third one to try to use his anticipation against him.
One of the other things that stuck with me from the guy that trained me is, always anticipate what the guy is going to do next, and act on it if you can. Sometimes you'll be wrong, but when you're right, it puts you in a much better position than if you just react to him.
Wiley.
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After watching the video and reading Wiley's additional information then going back and reading all the replies. I need to go searching for those 109's and take a beating till I can get past the fear of being jumped which leads to slow reactions.
Now I have a good plan so I don't have to stumble for what to do.
Ink, I was worried I was one of your victims in that film. Film shots of me being shot down of late are easy to come by I am afraid. :o
Great stuff in the all the replies.
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After watching the video and reading Wiley's additional information then going back and reading all the replies. I need to go searching for those 109's and take a beating till I can get past the fear of being jumped which leads to slow reactions.
Now I have a good plan so I don't have to stumble for what to do.
Ink, I was worried I was one of your victims in that film. Film shots of me being shot down of late are easy to come by I am afraid. :o
Great stuff in the all the replies.
:lol
hey man we all started as noobs and took many deaths, its just a matter of not getting frustrated, the learning curve is steep and will take time, but the rewards and fun to be had is well worth it....the best thing you could do is take a trainer or a vet who fights(not all vets actually fight) and ask to go to the TA and have them jump you from a hi position....and keep doing it, whats great about the TA is you dont have to waist time rerolling so you can get much more actual fighting time....I am not a "trainer" but I have done nothing but fight in AH since tour 52.....I am not the best stick in the game....but I am sure I could help ya out, so if you see me on and want to go to TA or DA just ask. :salute
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What maneuver should I make first to avoid being shot and a second move to give me a chance to have a good shooting position?
Not being cheeky, but consider upping 1 base back and meet those same guys with a 3k advantage on your end tootling about at 380 tas.
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High 109s and 190s are eating my lunch. Here is a common situation that I get beat. I am in a P47M say at 5000 feet above the ground say at 250 MPH climbing up or just picking up speed heading for a distant enemy base or a dogfight. I see a 109, 190 or well, really, any fighter say 3000 feet over my plane. They dive in and it seems my first move gets me shoot every time.
What maneuver should I make first to avoid being shot and a second move to give me a chance to have a good shooting position?
You should position yourself so that the bandit has to turn towards you, then you fly inside his turn so that he can't pull enough lead to shoot you. It's best if you don't think about maneuvers and instead just focus on the bandit and visualizing his turn circle so that you know where to fly to. Point yourself behind the bandit, don't chase him with your gunsight.
Be careful not to get too slow, it's hard to maneuver when you're slow.
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Not being cheeky, but consider upping 1 base back and meet those same guys with a 3k advantage on your end tootling about at 380 tas.
Won't ever learn to deal with high bandits if he's always one of them!
- oldman
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I am not an expert at this game but sometimes I do manage to hold my own and put up a good fight, but no matter how many times I get shot down I just keep re-upping, I enjoy talking to everyone in game and just here to have a good time :cheers: :salute
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This might help!
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/
Once there look for Trainers files,then download Murdr's evasive reversal lesson package. You will need to unzip the file and run AH film viewer but watch Murdr's barrel roll defence film,this is 1 of the best evasives to use when being bounced from above.
Try to keep your speed close to corner speed and do the break turn at near blackout,your enemy will never be able to follow you and if he tries will blackout and be easy meat!
:salute
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All y'all's advice paid off big time on the last day of this tour.
Not only did I not get shot down by a higher enemy in a one on one situation but I took away a couple of opportunities to be jumped by keeping a cool head. I will get jumped and loose again no doubt but now I have a good fighting chance.
I do need, as has been suggested, to visualize what move the other guy is making so that I can better take advantage of his miss shot opportunity.
Thanks again for all the advice. Still got a long way to go but this was a big step forward.
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I would approach this situation by starting a gradual turn and pulling the turn tighter and tighter the closer they get. Make sure there is a vertical component in your turn. I like to be slightly nose down so I have a lot of speed on board for follow on maneuvers. The reason for this is to scrub off some of their alt and E and try to get on an equal footing with them. The moment that they break out of trying to get lead on you, you barrel roll back into their vector and follow them up or straight. Just do not follow to long as you can roped easily if you have not got them slowed down enough. Watch your airspeed gauge! Know when to break away from a pursuit climb to keep maneuvering speed. Bleed their E, conserve yours as much as possible. It might take several passes from them before you get a chance at them, but your time will come. Be patient, you have all the time in the world to make a good shot when the opportunity presents itself. The goal is to get a shot on them, not to avoid being shot at by them.
Secondly, think thin. At that moment when you know they are going to fire (knowing this comes with experience), turn/roll your plane so as to present them with the thinnest profile shot, your side view. Not that big fat full plane (easy target) view that you see in a flat turn.
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found a film of me and a squaddie getting bounced by a +E K4 who quite rightly played the vert card against our jugs, I think it illustrates this kind of fight well.
Latrobe and Wiley pretty much nailed it in the first few posts, I'll add that in a jug its essential to be aggressive in defence. keep the guy worried about those 8 .50s, but only burn E when you have too. otherwise keep it corner speed as much as you can, reduce your E-deficit and only use a notch or 2 of flaps as required. fly lag pursuit until you get a kill shot, but throw in the odd low-% burst just to psych him if it feels right.
http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/jugs_vs_k4.ahf (http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/jugs_vs_k4.ahf)
:)
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I read through the posts kinda quickly so if someone already covered this previously sorry but there is one more thing to consider when dealing with nme's at higher E states. Don't assume that just because they have big alt or speed going into the fight that they are going to keep it. So either on the first pass they dump a load of energy and attempt to saddle up for a short tracking shot or manage that advantage in such a way that they have just a little more than you and dance around on your head just out of reach. It's actually difficult to deal with a really large differential in energy because you as the defender can usually maneuver just a little and foil a shot, especially if the attacker is coming into the attack locked up due to excessive speed. This E dump can happen on the first pass or later if a few high speed passes don't work out all that well.
I really base my defensive actions on what the guy with the E advantage is doing. My goal isn't just to avoid the shot but to get the kill. So it's all about what gets that guy in reach of my guns. There are a number of ways of doing that and it depends on what seems like will work best for that particular situation. A slow then tightening turn just as they are getting into range followed by a reverse sort of barrel roll usually will put the guy in sites for a snapshot, a straight barrel roll defense is also nice but I have a hard time getting guns on in that situation. If you are in reach and can follow him up and put a couple hits on him before you have to break off that works too. If you can get hit on them many times you'll upset them a bit and they will start a turn to avoid more hits. Wether the turn is in the vertical or horizontal your situation just got much better.
Don't forget that alot of these folks in here are familiar with a barrel roll defense or the slowly tightening turn or whatever and can plan in advance to counter it. Don't get discouraged if you die trying them, it's likely a timing issue on your part. Practice makes perfect and also results in alot of broken planes.
To be honest an nme with a boatload of altitude or speed is nothing to really be worried about. Keep your eye on em, look at what they are doing and make some decisions based on what your seeing and figure out a way to get a kill or....get dead and learn something from it.
The worst situation is the one where the guy uses his E advantage to deny the fight altogether....everything else....live or die....is what makes this game so addictive.
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just remember having too much energy is just as bad as having too little.
Use that against them when they dive and try and reverse the situation or at least get co-E through gentle evades. Don't follow any obvious ropes and focus on your relative speeds.
Flying the plane is difficult enough but knowing and judging these differences is the key to winning and losing.
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One more thing I'll just add here is that, while the highest E advantage con is usually the greatest threat, don't get too fixated on him.
Often I've been killed not by the high and fast con that I am evading, but by the lower, more Co-E con that showed up later and saddled up while I was busy evading the higher guy.
Oh and OP, I'm told the German iron (and most others) doesn't go right as good as it does to the left (although I assume that's primarily at low speeds). Just my $0.02.
:salute
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One more thing I'll just add here is that, while the highest E advantage con is usually the greatest threat, don't get too fixated on him.
Often I've been killed not by the high and fast con that I am evading, but by the lower, more Co-E con that showed up later and saddled up while I was busy evading the higher guy.
Oh and OP, I'm told the German iron (and most others) doesn't go right as good as it does to the left (although I assume that's primarily at low speeds). Just my $0.02.
:salute
You won't notice it unless at very very low speeds, about 100mph or less. So in most situations, it makes little to no difference.
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The defence against a high con with a 47 is much the same as the Hog as they both climb and accelerate poorly, so getting Co-E often takes a few missed passes on the bad guys part. Most of the advice you've gotten so far is very good. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is closely watching the guy as he comes down. You only want to evaid as much as you have to, any extra is burning E that you are desperately trying to build. For example, as you break into your oppenent, watch as he makes his run. There will be a point at which the gun run is given up, and they'll start zooming back up. This is the point at which you relax your controls and start building E again. Timing is critical, in that let off too early and he may get a gun solution, too late and you're burning E that you need to even out this fight. One part of this game that I find hard to break many of the habit on is thinking offensive defence. Most in the game have two modes of thinking, Kill, and survival. I like to teach 3 modes: Kill, offensive defence, and survival. Kill, is when you are purely the attacker or have a definite advantage. Offensive defence, is when you are fighting at a disadvantage with the possibility of reversing the situation or forcing an equal fight. Survival: the option of turning the fight around is now gone, and you are now looking for a window of escape. So keep in mind the Offensive defensive mind set when dealing with a high con, watch and wait for a mistake. Be patient, often the one who can't be the most patient will be the one least likely to make a mistake. Always watch for your evasion follow, if he tries to break with you, this is your chance to reverse. Barrel Roll defence on a follow is golden, as he has more smash and can't follow it, and will be forced an overshoot. One of the first habits I break from most of my students is ever following me on a low break turn when they have an E advantage, as they are very quickly reversed and shot.
:salute
BigRat
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Be patient, often the one who can't be the most patient will be the one least likely to make a mistake.
I'm sure you didn't mean to say that being impatient leads to fewer mistakes.
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If you want to make the other guy burn more E, make him lower his nose as much as possible. This means that when you make your evasive move, try to do it with the nose below the horizon. Not too low because you do not want to build too much speed yourself, but this, combined with turning into and under your opponent will force him to steepen his dive if he wants to force a shot.
It gives you several benefits: Your opponent will get too fast, giving him a shorter time to aim and burn more E due to drag. He will burn more E on the pullout because he will require more G in order not to drop well below. It will take him longer to recover and set up a new attack, time that you can use to level, build a bit of speed for the next evasive and go into a shallow climb to build your E if you got the time.
If you see the 190/109 diving behind and slightly below you and then closing fast to make the attack in a shallow climbing attitude, know you are dead. You got a business with a veteran.
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Another really good film and more thoughts to put into practice.
I have used flaps but not judicially enough to get that short lift in a turn. That film gave me some good idea of how to use them. I noticed INK used them as well.
Interesting on the ever decreasing turn circle followed by a roll out.
Seems like from the read making the high attacker get greedy and sell his E for the kill is the best plan no matter what you do.
This has been a really helpful thread to me.
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I'm sure you didn't mean to say that being impatient leads to fewer mistakes.
oops :lol. Yes being patient leads to fewer mistakes :aok
:salute
BigRat
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I am in a P47M say at 5000 feet above the ground say at 250 MPH climbing up or just picking up speed heading for a distant enemy base or a dogfight. I see a 109, 190 or well, really, any fighter say 3000 feet over my plane. They dive in and it seems my first move gets me shoot every time.
Found the problem. P-47's, while they certianly CAN play at low alt, aren't the best there. Try and climb out over your base if nessecary, or climbing higher before ingressing.
As to the 109, it really depends on what possition hes attacking from, so I can't give any particular maneuvers without more information. But if you don't mind blowing alt, just dive hard and fast, and he'll probably break off. Unless it was a lone con, I never dove to chase an enemy in the 109. If he does dive, you'll have two things going for you: 1) he will have had to limit his dive speed, or else lawn-dart. That means your E-levels should be close to equal when you hit the deck, or just stop diving. 2) He'll be suffering from heavy control surfaces, and so you can gain an early advantage before he slows down and starts to maneuver more effectively.
However, this also carries its own set of risks. If you don't gain the advantage in the initial manevuers when he's still heavy at the controlls, or gain enough seperation to escape, then all you've done is blow altitude, so you can't try to dive again. The 109 soundly out-climbs and out-accelerates the P-47 at most altitudes, so the E states won't stay equal without you putting some preasure on him.
As for the 190, I didn't fly it as much as I flew the 109, but I think you're kind of out of luck; they handle speed fine, and they can reorient their lift vector faster than anything else in the game, so he'll be able to follow most maneuvers just fine.
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Found the problem. P-47's, while they certianly CAN play at low alt, aren't the best there. Try and climb out over your base if nessecary, or climbing higher before ingressing.
...<snip>
As to the 109, it really depends on what possition hes attacking from, so I can't give any particular maneuvers without more information. But if you don't mind blowing alt, just dive hard and fast, and he'll probably break off.
...<snip>
As for the 190, I didn't fly it as much as I flew the 109, but I think you're kind of out of luck; they handle speed fine, and they can reorient their lift vector faster than anything else in the game, so he'll be able to follow most maneuvers just fine.
It is true that the P47 is a high alt bird, but the M has excellent low alt performance as well, as long as it still has the WEP - never waste all of it on the climb, save it for combat! The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k.
An all out dive is an escape maneuver. It means giving up the fight. 5k is not a lot and if the 109 (assume K or G14) pilot has any clue, he will easily catch up to you on the deck and then force you to fight at even worse condition where you have no room for vertical maneuvers.
The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter, unless all you are trying to do is to beat the network update rate and appear to be micro-warping around on the other machine. Against 190s it is vital that you do not allow them to fix their aim and time the shot. You have to keep your orientation towards them changing, so they have to keep correcting. This means movement in all 3 axes. Example: roll left and go into a break turn, then follow with a loaded roll to the left till you are in a right hand turn (think half a barrel roll). From his point of view, you are moving is a curved line that is difficult to lead with the guns and that will force him to steepen his dive if he tries to. By this point the 190 will either take a wild shot and break off or be sucked into a rolling scissors, where you have a good chance to reverse him if he is not careful with his speed.
Nothing is guaranteed. A good pilot will get you no matter what he or you fly.
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It is true that the P47 is a high alt bird, but the M has excellent low alt performance as well, as long as it still has the WEP - never waste all of it on the climb, save it for combat! The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k.
An all out dive is an escape maneuver. It means giving up the fight. 5k is not a lot and if the 109 (assume K or G14) pilot has any clue, he will easily catch up to you on the deck and then force you to fight at even worse condition where you have no room for vertical maneuvers.
The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter, unless all you are trying to do is to beat the network update rate and appear to be micro-warping around on the other machine. Against 190s it is vital that you do not allow them to fix their aim and time the shot. You have to keep your orientation towards them changing, so they have to keep correcting. This means movement in all 3 axes. Example: roll left and go into a break turn, then follow with a loaded roll to the left till you are in a right hand turn (think half a barrel roll). From his point of view, you are moving is a curved line that is difficult to lead with the guns and that will force him to steepen his dive if he tries to. By this point the 190 will either take a wild shot and break off or be sucked into a rolling scissors, where you have a good chance to reverse him if he is not careful with his speed.
Nothing is guaranteed. A good pilot will get you no matter what he or you fly.
Yup. Well..maybe not a D3A1... :noid
Another note on roll rate. Sometimes, planes with a good rudder can "out roll" a plane without a good rudder even though on paper, it shouldn't. Use your rudder! In a rolling scissors, it can force an overshoot, helps you roll faster, and place you at awkward angles making the other guy's aim a hard job.
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I continue to have success with high enemies as long as it is a single attacker. Two or more spits or 51s as an example are hard to escape if you are by yourself and they have an E advantage. I did get tagged by a 262 but that was lack of SA. I just plain wasn't looking.
I have noticed other pilots when picking a target will pick a P47 or P38 first if they have a choice so it makes choosing a P47 like putting a big bullseye on the tail. I guess because they are bigger and easier to hit. I noticed too in the radio chatter, a P47 of P38 gets more attention on average in a furbal or airfield attack.
I have had a couple of overshoots with one I took advantage of so all the replies have really paid off.
Yes the P47M using a touch of flaps, and wep makes the 47M a bit like a giant La7 with 8-50s in a furbal as long as I can pull up to 2000 feet above the deck after a pass. The flap play I got from the films used as examples in the replies so I got a two'fer out of this learning experience. The only thing missing on the M is that ability to extend like a mustang for an escape when WEP runs out.
Thanks again to all.
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...... The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k........
:rofl :rofl
no it cant
care to test out that theory?
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Another note on roll rate. Sometimes, planes with a good rudder can "out roll" a plane without a good rudder even though on paper, it shouldn't. Use your rudder! In a rolling scissors, it can force an overshoot, helps you roll faster, and place you at awkward angles making the other guy's aim a hard job.
Also, slows you down, what is an other vital part of the rolling scissors.
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It is true that the P47 is a high alt bird, but the M has excellent low alt performance as well, as long as it still has the WEP - never waste all of it on the climb, save it for combat! The M with the WEP can tackle any MA bird with reasonable odds, even at 5k.
Like I said. It can do it, its just a bit out of its element. Its like a high-alt 190, it can do the job, its just not the best up there.
An all out dive is an escape maneuver. It means giving up the fight. 5k is not a lot and if the 109 (assume K or G14) pilot has any clue, he will easily catch up to you on the deck and then force you to fight at even worse condition where you have no room for vertical maneuvers.
HIGHLY situational. If you're near your own base, the 109 probably won't want to drop to low alt an engage with a reduced E-advantage. Last thing he'll want to do is fight 2 or 3v1.
If you're near the enemy's base, its a bit irrelevent, since you shouldn't be ingressing at 5k in a jug, and if you're egressing you're doing so for a reason, and are probably out of options.
The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter, unless all you are trying to do is to beat the network update rate and appear to be micro-warping around on the other machine. Against 190s it is vital that you do not allow them to fix their aim and time the shot. You have to keep your orientation towards them changing, so they have to keep correcting. This means movement in all 3 axes. Example: roll left and go into a break turn, then follow with a loaded roll to the left till you are in a right hand turn (think half a barrel roll). From his point of view, you are moving is a curved line that is difficult to lead with the guns and that will force him to steepen his dive if he tries to. By this point the 190 will either take a wild shot and break off or be sucked into a rolling scissors, where you have a good chance to reverse him if he is not careful with his speed.
You miss what I'm saying. The 190's roll compared to the P-47's doesn't put the P-47 at any real disadvantage in direct combat. But the 190's high rate of roll, combined with its love of speed, makes their attacks harder to avoid, since they can follow most maneuvers.
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I have noticed other pilots when picking a target will pick a P47 or P38 first if they have a choice so it makes choosing a P47 like putting a big bullseye on the tail. I guess because they are bigger and easier to hit. I noticed too in the radio chatter, a P47 of P38 gets more attention on average in a furbal or airfield attack.
Roflmao, welcome to the 'flying bullseyes' club. :lol
I know just how you feel. My 38 is always a con and bullet magnet :furious
I personally believe its more than just the fact that they are big targets.
P38s and P47s have over the years been given the reputation of a JABO truck. So everyone expects a 38 or jug to almost always be heavy and focused on porking fields rather than actually fighting.
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:rofl :rofl
no it cant
care to test out that theory?
It has already been tested.
For you a D11 with the default skin should be enough.
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I have tried to pay special attention to the situations which I get beat so I can ask or figure out a way to win more often in the P47M. At least from my limited experience in a furbal the 47M does really well for me.
One on one with a spit or the like with equal E, well, that is a different story. I loose those much more than I would like making me want to join the long list of spit and 51 drivers. I have to get lucky on those encounters or last long enough for the spit or like plane to make a mistake.
Any situation where the spit like plane can't pay full attention to the 47M is my best situation.
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It has already been tested.
For you a D11 with the default skin should be enough.
I wouldnt say "all" MA birds but a good 3/4 of them. 109s, 190A5/D9, La-Las, Spits, Yak, Brews, Zeroes, N1K. Probably a few more I might have forgotten.
P38 vs P47, now that's a fun fight. I suppose if the Jug can't quickly dispatch the 38, the 38 will eventually get the upper hand.
This is in an equal E situation that is.
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I wouldnt say "all" MA birds but a good 3/4 of them. 109s, 190A5/D9, La-Las, Spits, Yak, Brews, Zeroes, N1K. Probably a few more I might have forgotten.
P38 vs P47, now that's a fun fight. I suppose if the Jug can't quickly dispatch the 38, the 38 will eventually get the upper hand.
This is in an equal E situation that is.
It really depends on lots of things. The problem with duels is that unlike in the MA, there is no pressure on the attacker (the one who obtained the initiative). For example, vs. a Spit16 or 109K, if they survive the first two moves, they will tend to go up up up until they build enough E advantage to play safe BnZ. Alternatively, the attacker, if positioned well will not be afraid to blow away all its speed to try and saddle up the on Jug. In a duel the Jug will not try to run away even if it is clear that it was bested.
In the MA on the other hand, if they do not finish the Jug quickly, such moves will get them killed, because someone is sure to pass by and blast them away as they play helicopter at 50 mph. A spit16 that blew away all its speed to try and saddle up risks the M-Jug hitting its mega WEP and leaving it behind. Short intensive fights where the opponent is under pressure to finish the fight quickly play to the benefit of the Jug. The M Jug is not the best furball plane, but it is good enough to let pilot skill be a decisive factor.
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It really depends on lots of things. The problem with duels is that unlike in the MA, there is no pressure on the attacker (the one who obtained the initiative). For example, vs. a Spit16 or 109K, if they survive the first two moves, they will tend to go up up up until they build enough E advantage to play safe BnZ. Alternatively, the attacker, if positioned well will not be afraid to blow away all its speed to try and saddle up the on Jug. In a duel the Jug will not try to run away even if it is clear that it was bested.
In the MA on the other hand, if they do not finish the Jug quickly, such moves will get them killed, because someone is sure to pass by and blast them away as they play helicopter at 50 mph. A spit16 that blew away all its speed to try and saddle up risks the M-Jug hitting its mega WEP and leaving it behind. Short intensive fights where the opponent is under pressure to finish the fight quickly play to the benefit of the Jug. The M Jug is not the best furball plane, but it is good enough to let pilot skill be a decisive factor.
Eh, not my style of play but whatever floats your boat. I fight to the death as long as there's still a chance, regardless of how small it may be. Pilot skill IMO involves some sort of ACM, people who make passes at 450mph and pull up aren't "skillful" in my opinion. Yea, they're good at what they do, E management, gunnery, SA, whatever. But I'll never consider you "skillful" until you can do something else other than shoot and run.
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All great advice. One more...
If you are in a PonyD set your auto climb to 260knts. At this speed you have a climb rate of 2k/min through about 15k. This gives you plenty of climb and you always have enough speed for defensive maneuvers. By the time you reach 15k your indicated speed remains 260 but actual is over 300.
Dogfighting is all about positioning first, getting them to overshoot second, accurate shots thirds. Speed is life!
Boo
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It has already been tested.
For you a D11 with the default skin should be enough.
getting a kill on me one time in the MA....means nothing....I am guessing that is what you are talking about although I don't remember any fights with you 1vs1 in the MA.....lets go to the DA you take any jug ill take my plane the KI and see if you can even put rounds near me.....talk smack..... back it up.....you seem quite positive you can kill me in my KI while you are in a JUG....
there is an old saying..."Put up or shut up" :aok
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Chill, both of you.
An MA "opportunity kill" means nothing just the same way as a DA ki84 vs jug one.
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Chill, both of you.
An MA "opportunity kill" means nothing just the same way as a DA ki84 vs jug one.
Debrody telling someone to "chill" oh my word I love ya bro...but that made me laugh.
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Ironic or not, Debrody is right. Take the egos out of the HnT forum you tarts. (there's better waters to use your chum in :devil )
I have tried to pay special attention to the situations which I get beat so I can ask or figure out a way to win more often in the P47M. At least from my limited experience in a furbal the 47M does really well for me.
One on one with a spit or the like with equal E, well, that is a different story. I loose those much more than I would like making me want to join the long list of spit and 51 drivers. I have to get lucky on those encounters or last long enough for the spit or like plane to make a mistake.
Any situation where the spit like plane can't pay full attention to the 47M is my best situation.
There's a lot to go into, but to be brief in your co-E spit situation, you're greatest strength in that situation is to run via diving away. You can out dive a spit but most spits can out acelerate, climb and out turn you. He wins as soon as you decide to start turning to fight.
Many consider it a coward's play (especialy some individuals participating in "your discussion" here), but it's just the honest answer to your honest question - if you want to win in that situation; run away and disengage, climb higher and gain the E/alt advantage over the spit, come back in with it and utilise it against him. If at any point you equalise with him, nose down and run away and repeat.
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:lol
.....I am not the best stick in the game....but I am sure I could help ya out, so if you see me on and want to go to TA or DA just ask. :salute
Ink, you and I had a run in the other night in a 109 P47M one on one. I got whooped by a stickman that was doggone good. I think I made you earn it at least for a little bit. Twice I tried to get you overshoot and I only got one peak. I will save the film to watch for training myself. I had one chance to pull underneath you but didn't so maybe next time I will no better. Thanks for a great lesson. :)
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Even if you didn't film the fight in the MAs, you can send a player a PM (.p ink good fight) and sometimes it'll strike up a conversation, and sometimes that'll lead to some good advice for you from their perspective (or they have film from their perspective they could share).
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heck ya :aok
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I wouldnt say "all" MA birds but a good 3/4 of them. 109s, 190A5/D9, La-Las, Spits, Yak, Brews, Zeroes, N1K. Probably a few more I might have forgotten.
P38 vs P47, now that's a fun fight. I suppose if the Jug can't quickly dispatch the 38, the 38 will eventually get the upper hand.
This is in an equal E situation that is.
I'm a bit skeptical of that statment. A well-flown A5 will give a well-flown jug a fight. So will an La-7, or even a Spitfire. The slower birds I grant you, because theres almost nothing they can do about a P-47 with even a small-moderate E advantage.
But assuming equal skill level, in my opinion, any jug vs a K4, just because the K4 is such a damn monster when it comes to pure performance.
A jug vs a Lala runs into much the same problems.
P-51 has the advantage IMO, because it can keep up with the Jug in dives, handles better at low speed and alt, has roughly the same performance down low, and is more maneuverable.
A Yak-9 can also be a challenge.
Ki-84.
Just saying, skill-level being equal, the Jugs are at a disadvantage to many planes at low and low-medium alt.
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A spit16 that blew away all its speed to try and saddle up risks the M-Jug hitting its mega WEP and leaving it behind.
Um, no. The Spit risks being saddled up on in turn or being picked, but unless he did an exceptionally bad job of blowing his E while saddling up there is no escape for the P-47M. A P-47N tried to use that tactic to escape my D3A and I easily shot him down before he could escape. The D3A's acceleration is pathetic compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI's. Heck, the P-47M's acceleration is pathetic compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI's until well past 300mph.
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The 190 has almost no roll rate advantage over the P47 - numbers lie. When the roll rate is fast enough to challenge the reaction of the pilot, it does not matter any more. If you can do a 90 deg bank in 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001 seconds, it really does not matter,
This is not one bit true. In scenarios flying a 190 I can keep any P-47 out of plane so badly I can force every one of them to overshoot or break off, even outnumbered. In fact there's no plane in the set that even remotly matches the 190's roll rate.
Also to another of your comments, no Jug will out accelerate a Spit even with WEP.
A few other notes:
Most new players make the mistake of setting up their break turn far too early. While you're turning hard to one side or the other your pursuer can take a much more gradual turn, burning less E and allowing plenty of time to set up a shot. If the opponent is coming in from behind you have to wait until he's already in guns range to make your break turn.
As already mentioned, make him dive steeper if possible (turn under him).
Common wisdom says to turn into your opponent but if you can judge the skill of the other pilot you can show him your tail and drag him imto a high speed pursuit. As long as he has closure on you you have the advantage because when you do finally make your break turn riding the tunnel he'll black out trying to follow. In this case I like to begin my break turn in one direction then reverse half way through (much like a barrel roll defense) to end up on his six as he tries to escape. The give him your tail approach immediately equalizes E states so you don't have to keep grinding away to make that heppen as you would with the turn into him or turn under him approachs. The trick is learing when to use which tactic which is only done through trial and error.
People will tell you to dive away in a P-47. A good Spit or 109 pilot will be in total control in a 500 mph dive and if you haven't gained sufficient seperation to run away when you've run out of alt you'll die. The Spit will have to reduce throttle to follow your break turn while the 109 will have to trim elevators so they'll have to work a little harder but it's not that big a deal. If you've got seperation to start this might work against some slower planes (A6M's and the like). The 190 will eat a Jug alive in a high speed dive (600 mph+ with instant roll and turn authority).
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People will tell you to dive away in a P-47. A good Spit or 109 pilot will be in total control in a 500 mph dive and if you haven't gained sufficient seperation to run away when you've run out of alt you'll die.
I'd like to say that this is highly situational. While the Spit or 109 may be able to remain in control, they won't be able to maneuver as well. Also, while both aircraft have their aces, by and large they aren't outstanding, though I would say that is slightly more true of the spitfire than the 109.
Odds are that the 'typical' spit or 109 you encounter will be incapable of maintaining secure control over their aircraft at such speeds, and will be able to fight nearly so effectively from a slight disadvantage, or even an even footing.
The Spit will have to reduce throttle to follow your break turn while the 109 will have to trim elevators so they'll have to work a little harder but it's not that big a deal.
Like I said, the dive should be made more to equalize the E-state, and grab an advantage in possition while your opponent is at a slight disadvantage in maneuvering. Really, you're just trying to get to a possition where you can make an actual fight of things, rather than hanging around at 5k and 250mph, trying to evade BnZ attacks.
I mean if its a later model 109, or a 190D, you can't escape him anyway without some considerable seperation.
If you've got seperation to start this might work against some slower planes (A6M's and the like). The 190 will eat a Jug alive in a high speed dive (600 mph+ with instant roll and turn authority).
No arguments here.
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Also to another of your comments, no Jug will out accelerate a Spit even with WEP.
A few other notes:
Most new players make the mistake of setting up their break turn far too early. While you're turning hard to one side or the other your pursuer can take a much more gradual turn, burning less E and allowing plenty of time to set up a shot. If the opponent is coming in from behind you have to wait until he's already in guns range to make your break turn.
As already mentioned, make him dive steeper if possible (turn under him).
People will tell you to dive away in a P-47. A good Spit or 109 pilot will be in total control in a 500 mph dive and if you haven't gained sufficient seperation to run away when you've run out of alt you'll die. . . . .The 190 will eat a Jug alive in a high speed dive (600 mph+ with instant roll and turn authority).
I agree with this from the P47 side. I have tried to out dive a 109 and it hasn't worked using just a straight dive. 109s are very difficult for me to deal with on a one on one P47M vs 109. I guess that is why there are so many i109s are in the MA. I can do better with them in a furbal where I can make climbing turns.
I have a long way to go to get the most out of a 47M but I am getting there.
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I agree with this from the P47 side. I have tried to out dive a 109 and it hasn't worked using just a straight dive. 109s are very difficult for me to deal with on a one on one P47M vs 109. I guess that is why there are so many i109s are in the MA. I can do better with them in a furbal where I can make climbing turns.
I have a long way to go to get the most out of a 47M but I am getting there.
IDK, situation may have changed since I left, but there seemed to be relatively few 109's in the MA's only a bit more than a year ago.
I never would have called them rare, or anything; its not like could go to a decent sized fight and not see at LEAST one. But I never would have called them 'common' either, at least not overall.
It seems to me you're either just noticing them more because you're having problems with them, or you're flying at an altitude band thats a hot-spot for 109's.
Try flying higher. All aircraft tend to thin out with altidue, and anything 10K and higher significantly increases the odds that any 109 you'll bump into will be either a G-model packing gondies for buff hunting, or a K-4, in which case you're either screwed or are in for a fight.
Also, 190's become rather rare at high altidue since they cap out for speed at only 21K or so, and only crack 400mph which isn't stellar (the K4 can almost make 400mph at 5k for comparison). Go very high, and you'll start bumping into Ta-152's every now and then.
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Most new players make the mistake of setting up their break turn far too early.
Agreed.
- oldman
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Um, no. The Spit risks being saddled up on in turn or being picked, but unless he did an exceptionally bad job of blowing his E while saddling up there is no escape for the P-47M.
<snip>
Heck, the P-47M's acceleration is pathetic compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI's until well past 300mph.
Also to another of your comments, no Jug will out accelerate a Spit even with WEP.
At what speed? A jug should never ever be caught on the defense at less than 200-250 mph. I assume that the OP was discussing an encounter with a 109/190, not being picked after coming out of another stall fight at 150 mph. As Karnak mentioned, the Jug will start pulling ahead around 300 mph, which is reached very fast when starting at 250. The rest is when running level or in a shallow dive. Seriously, a P51 never flew away from your spit? It has no better acceleration than the M and top speed at typical altitudes is not much higher either.
I agree with this from the P47 side. I have tried to out dive a 109 and it hasn't worked using just a straight dive.
You will not dive away if the bandit is faster than you to begin with. I am not talking about a terminal speed competition. In addition, the 109 is not there to race you, it is here to shoot you down. Roll while you dive, never let him match his roll aspect with yours. Keep it 90--120 degrees off an add an occasional small jink, so from his aspect you move to the side or under his nose. If he tries to aim with his rudder he will slow down. With 190s you fake an escape and then hit the brakes and suck them into rolling scissors.
This is not one bit true. In scenarios flying a 190 I can keep any P-47 out of plane so badly I can force every one of them to overshoot or break off, even outnumbered. In fact there's no plane in the set that even remotly matches the 190's roll rate.
This is when the 190 is on the defense and this is not because of the roll rates advantage, but because of reaction advantage. A defending jug can keep the 190 out of plane just the same - it is the pilot that is trying to follow that does not react fast enough, no matter if he is the 190 or the Jug. The 190 has better roll acceleration so a change in roll direction often creates a micro-warp that is more confusing to the attacker, that much is true.
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IDK, situation may have changed since I left, but there seemed to be relatively few 109's in the MA's only a bit more than a year ago.
I never would have called them rare, or anything; its not like could go to a decent sized fight and not see at LEAST one. But I never would have called them 'common' either, at least not overall.
It seems to me you're either just noticing them more because you're having problems with them, or you're flying at an altitude band thats a hot-spot for 109's.
Try flying higher. All aircraft tend to thin out with altidue, and anything 10K and higher significantly increases the odds that any 109 you'll bump into will be either a G-model packing gondies for buff hunting, or a K-4, in which case you're either screwed or are in for a fight.
Also, 190's become rather rare at high altidue since they cap out for speed at only 21K or so, and only crack 400mph which isn't stellar (the K4 can almost make 400mph at 5k for comparison). Go very high, and you'll start bumping into Ta-152's every now and then.
Well there's the problem with basing your answer on old information. Last month the 109's were responsible for better than 20% of all the kills. Also the game isn't played over 10-12k, except for buff hunting....what little there is. Today's player for the most part is looking for quick action. They don't climb very high and they come in HOin almost anything they can find. Todays game is a bit different "than you remember".
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Bozon,
If the P-47 still has 250mph on the dial after the Spit XVI blew its E to saddle up on it the Spit XVI did a very bad job of doing so. It ought to have forced hard break out of the P-47M in the process. That said, if the Spit XVI is 200 yards behind the P-47M and both are going 250mph the P-47M is highly unlikely to survive long enough to pull away unless it is dodging quite a bit and if it is dodging it is blowing E it needs to use in the pull away. The Spit XVI's firepower is more than adequate to destroy a P-47 in that time.
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Well there's the problem with basing your answer on old information. Last month the 109's were responsible for better than 20% of all the kills. Also the game isn't played over 10-12k, except for buff hunting....what little there is. Today's player for the most part is looking for quick action. They don't climb very high and they come in HOin almost anything they can find. Todays game is a bit different "than you remember".
:rofl
You never give up the same old line. :old:
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Bozon,
If the P-47 still has 250mph on the dial after the Spit XVI blew its E to saddle up on it the Spit XVI did a very bad job of doing so. It ought to have forced hard break out of the P-47M in the process. That said, if the Spit XVI is 200 yards behind the P-47M and both are going 250mph the P-47M is highly unlikely to survive long enough to pull away unless it is dodging quite a bit and if it is dodging it is blowing E it needs to use in the pull away. The Spit XVI's firepower is more than adequate to destroy a P-47 in that time.
The firepower it has, but can he hit? Speaking for myself, I often can't, but I am a terrible gunner especially for someone slightly above average in his K/D. Being on the receiving end, the guy behind me is often not a better gunner. The Spit or any other plane will OFTEN blow too much or too little E and give you that window of opportunity. Winning a dogfight is much more about exploiting the mistakes of the other guy than pulling some wonder sure-fire move that he can't counter. All you need is a plane good enough to exploit that mistake and I am saying that the M jug is more than adequate to do so. Adequate to the point where pilot skill and the specific situation are much more important than the on-paper specs of the planes involved.
I fly the Mossie as a pure fighter quite a lot. I'll be the last to say that it is some uber dogfighter, but players do not know how to approach it and make a lot of mistakes. The Moss VI is good enough to allow me to punish them for their mistakes and boy it is fun to do so, but I am sure you know that.
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Dunno.
Using the Mossie as an example, I have killed many a Runstang that couldn't get away despite being technically 11mph faster and much better accelerating past 340mph simply because he had to waste E dodging my fire (.303s do have a use) and I didn't have to waste that E.
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Well there's the problem with basing your answer on old information. Last month the 109's were responsible for better than 20% of all the kills.
Hmmm.... sounds like I'm missing out.
<S> 109 pilots, keep up the good work.
Also the game isn't played over 10-12k, except for buff hunting....what little there is. Today's player for the most part is looking for quick action. They don't climb very high and they come in HOin almost anything they can find. Todays game is a bit different "than you remember".
Well thats kind of the point of ingressing at 10K + though. You come in above most enemies (and therefore have more E than most of them), you can work your way down through the pile, and don't have to worry about being BnZ'ed as much. And you don't have to wade through all the HO's, turny-twits, and other undesierables.
From what it sounds like in the OP, hes either getting jumped while ingressing, or egressing. For me personally, 5K is just the wrong altitude to be at in a Jug when going into the fight. And if he's egressing...... well, he'd do better to stick to the deck in that case.
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Very good advise here on how to fight in Low E situations vs 109 and 190s. The thing to keep in mind here is they are two very different planes vs the jug and evasives are different as well.
Speed is key when fighting either so the first thing you do when you see that enemy coming in on top of you is level and hit the WEP till you get at least 250 on the dial (ideally 300+). You're not going to outrun a 109 or 190 on a perch so, once you get your speed up, turn the WEP off and save it for when you can work the enemies speed down to that closer to yours. In either case (109 or 190) show them your 6 and let them come in on ya.
For 109s (especially K4s) let them get close before you start your turns. Most of the good sticks won't start letting taters go until they get D600 or closer. When you're At speeds of three hundred or greater 109s can't roll or pull up as fast as you can because they're fighting stick forces you don't have to contend with in a Jug. Your goal now is to make them burn energy while you try to conserve it. I'll usually start with a roll in either direction and a light pull on the elevator to see if they're committed to an attack. If they roll to follow I'll slightly increase my G load so they can't pull lead without blacking out. This is usually the point where most 109s will give up the chase and start to go back into the vert to reset another attack. If they do, DON'T turn back into them and try to chase. Level or set up a shallow dive and hit the WEP again. Get some separation and let him slow down while he loops over the top. Then you can star shallow turns into the attacker to keep him out of phase. If you can work him into a slower scissor type fight you may have opportunities to force overshoots and get some shots on him before he can pull away. The thing about the M is it will hang on the prop longer than the other Jugs and surprise the unwary 109 pilot. Once it runs out of WEP though its just a D-40. The problem with 109s (especially the K-4) is a good stick will always maintain an advantage over a jug. If you run into an uber K-4 pilot, you'll rarely beat him unless he makes a mistake. The k-4 just has too much raw power for even the best jug pilot to overcome.
The 190 is a much easier nut to crack than the 109. The only decisive advantage it holds over the the jug at low altitudes is a better thrust to weight and therefore climbs and accelerates better. As mentioned previously, it rolls better but it's not significant enough to be a factor. While it's true the 190 has good high speed handling, it can't flat turn as well as a Jug especially when you incorporate the flaps on the P-47. An engagement with a 190 goes much he same as the 109 but you'll want to start you initial turn sooner than with the 109 since they Cary greater armorment and turn better at high speeds. Since the 190 doesn't have the raw power or turning ability of the 109, it's much easier to make them burn their E and take them out. When you perfect your jug skills, lone 190s will be easy meat no matter what altitude or direction they come from. The only 190 I fear in any Jug is the A5 because it usually an uber stick an it turns better than the other 190s.
Keys to being good in a Jug.
Speed is your freind.
Try to keep fights going down hill to avoid burning you E and playing into the enemies hands.
Never underestimate the power of the properly timed zoom climb. (Especially in an M)
Altitude is your friend but not when you're learning. Seek out fights and get yourself into situations that are not ideal.
Record your fights an watch them from the enemies perspective.
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Even more good advice. This thread is a wealth of information and different opinions. I have learned a lot.
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When you're At speeds of three hundred or greater 109s can't roll or pull up as fast as you can because they're fighting stick forces you don't have to contend with in a Jug. Your goal now is to make them burn energy while you try to conserve it.
Great general advice, but I feel it needs some clarification. 109's are all more than capable of fighting above 300mph, save for the 109E which is just kind of capable.... they're just not as good at it. Point being don't deal in absolutes with the 109, or any aircraft for that matter; think "he probably won't be able to follow this maneuver, but if he does, I'll do ____"
And as to the energy point, watch out for the K4. You'll need about 1 1/2 times the E advantage compared to the other 109's, and even then you should be a bit leery of him.
If you can work him into a slower scissor type fight you may have opportunities to force overshoots and get some shots on him before he can pull away. The thing about the M is it will hang on the prop longer than the other Jugs and surprise the unwary 109 pilot. Once it runs out of WEP though its just a D-40. The problem with 109s (especially the K-4) is a good stick will always maintain an advantage over a jug. If you run into an uber K-4 pilot, you'll rarely beat him unless he makes a mistake. The k-4 just has too much raw power for even the best jug pilot to overcome.
Can't over epmphasize the K-4 point. Theres a decent chance that, if he sees himself starting to overshoot, he could get away with shenanigans like just lifting the nose and climbing to safety with pure horsepower. Keep in mind he's putting out over 1700hp, he weighs only a little over 7500lbs, and has over 9 minutes of continuous WEP, which will strech to more like 15 or 20 minutes of intermittent use if he's smart.
While it's true the 190 has good high speed handling, it can't flat turn as well as a Jug especially when you incorporate the flaps on the P-47. *snip* The only 190 I fear in any Jug is the A5 because it usually an uber stick an it turns better than the other 190s.
Again, don't take that "as well" to mean that the 190 is incapable of flat-turning. Only one that is really incapable of turning at all is the 190F, but thats just because he weighs a hell of a lot more than the others. Though the odds of getting bounced by one is probably lower than the odds of getting bounced by a Hurricane Mk I. As Mak said, watch the A-5's; they're possibly the most dangerous purely in terms of the aircraft, and have a higher chance of being flown by an ace.
Oh, and again, don't let them get a crossing shot. They carry buckets of ammo for the 20mm, will be very liberal with the trigger if they get a good shot, and the A-8 carries two 30mm's. Even just flying through that will ruin your day.
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Altitude is your friend but not when you're learning. Seek out fights and get yourself into situations that are not ideal.
This is most excellent advice for anyone, in any plane.
- oldman
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Necro bump. :banana:
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how to deal with a high 109: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZCia9kWMdQ
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How to deal with a 109; Fly a spitfire
fixed :P
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ya spitfire plane best plane gg :aok
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I am not an expert at this game but sometimes I do manage to hold my own and put up a good fight, but no matter how many times I get shot down I just keep re-upping, I enjoy talking to everyone in game and just here to have a good time :cheers: :salute
Well said and Ditto :aok
:cheers: Oz