Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Weirdguy on January 29, 2013, 05:20:16 AM
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I like flying the Bf-109's as I have a thing for the German planes, and got really used to the 109's and their party trick, their insanely high climb rate.
Looking at the speed charts for the 109's the G2 and the K4 are the two fastest planes in the group, both able to get to 400mph.
I tend to fly the K4 the most because it is a bit faster, but I also hate that limited ammo of the 30mm cannon.
Which one of these two do you think is better?
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I dunno sir, but if I had to take a wild guess...off the top of my head..maybe.........uhm..err. th-
K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 K4 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And this is why I don't often post in the main forum. You don't get useful discussions, you get things like that.
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Looking at the speed charts for the 109's the G2 and the K4 are the two fastest planes in the group, both able to get to 400mph.
I tend to fly the K4 the most because it is a bit faster, but I also hate that limited ammo of the 30mm cannon.
Actually the G-14 is significantly faster than then the G-2 at the most common combat altitudes of Aces High, only above 20K the G-2 has some slight edge. Below 16k, the G-14 at almost 20mph faster @WEP.
If you would prefer the K-4 over the G-2 for it's increased performance, but don't like the 30mm cannon, the G-14 is your ride as it's featuring a 20mm option. With the ability to carry additional gunpods or a bomb it's also a more versatile fighter.
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Well, what do you want?
Turn with spits? G2 is your plane. Catch the runstangs? K4 is your friend.
If i had to choose, my vote would be on the K4 because maneuverability can be replaced with skills (for a definiate level) but no trining will ever get you any faster.
Oh and tater > peashooter ;)
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It was a joke, but serious. The K4 (In My Opinion) is the best 109 of the series, when you get to learn the plane it'll do things you would never think it could. Turn with spitfires, climb with 38's, diving..well...not so much - learn the tater and it can truly be one of, if not the best plane in the game. Of course you will not succeed with either the G2 or K4 if you don't stick to one and learn how its limitations, how to fly it, and how to aim it. The K4's guns are obviously far superior, yes it has a limited ammo load but consider this, it can take 20 or more 20mm's from a g2 (depending on your aim of course) to down a plane. It takes only 1 30mm from the K4's Mk108 to disable and/or down a plane.
Yes, the G2 turns tighter but you will still beat g2's and even spitfires in a turn fight once you get into mid/advanced level ACM. IMO the K4 feels like it will easily climb with and/or hang with planes in the verticle due to its massive engine, most people new to the K4 will simply flop over due to the massive engine's torque, this can be countered obviously by some rudder and throttle inputs.
If you want lessons in the K4 PM me on here or in game, I'll show you a thing or two in it.
PS: God people need to lighten up around here sometimes, I swear!
:salute
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It was a joke, but serious. The K4 (In My Opinion) is the best 109 of the series, when you get to learn the plane it'll do things you would never think it could. Turn with spitfires, climb with 38's, diving..well...not so much - learn the tater and it can truly be one of, if not the best plane in the game. Of course you will not succeed with either the G2 or K4 if you don't stick to one and learn how its limitations, how to fly it, and how to aim it. The K4's guns are obviously far superior, yes it has a limited ammo load but consider this, it can take 20 or more 20mm's from a g2 (depending on your aim of course) to down a plane. It takes only 1 30mm from the K4's Mk108 to disable and/or down a plane.
Yes, the G2 turns tighter but you will still beat g2's and even spitfires in a turn fight once you get into mid/advanced level ACM. IMO the K4 feels like it will easily climb with and/or hang with planes in the verticle due to its massive engine, most people new to the K4 will simply flop over due to the massive engine's torque, this can be countered obviously by some rudder and throttle inputs.
If you want lessons in the K4 PM me on here or in game, I'll show you a thing or two in it.
PS: God people need to lighten up around here sometimes, I swear!
:salute
you need to straighten up. this is serious bizness (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Bottom.gif)
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dont listen to the k4/G2 dweebs, E4 is where the fun is
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If the only thing you don't like about the K4 is the 30mm, you might want to take the time to learn how to use the 30mm. There are far, far better people to teach you how to use it, but here's the basic gist of how I use it:
- Don't fire outside of 200 yards in the beginning. The dispersion on it starts to look like silly string outside of 500 yards, and bullet drop is significant. If you connect, they die, but it's tough to reliably hit them from far.
- Try for 2 or 3 round bursts. As you get better with it, single rounds are the goal.
- Try to set up shots where they are crossing your nose showing more of the plane as opposed to trying to put a bullet stream into them from dead six. It only takes 1, maybe 2 taters to wreck a fighter unless you put it into one of the horizontal stabilizers. Engine hits may or may not be critical. Otherwise, you put one on a fighter, it goes down. It's a bit counterintuitive, but it really does work.
For myself personally, I fly it what I call 'execution style'. I get in as close as I can, put the barrel against the back of his head, and pull the trigger. Ideally, I'm 100 yards or closer when I pull the trigger and the guy is in planform filling my windscreen.
In the beginning, the K4 is an easy plane to survive in, tough plane to kill in. As you get the 30mm figured out, it becomes one of the most potent planes in the game.
Wiley.
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(http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/uh43048,1250526679,Zvezda_La-5FN_48_cover.jpg)
/thread
:aok
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(http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/uh43048,1250526679,Zvezda_La-5FN_48_cover.jpg)
/thread
:aok
what he said. :aok :ahand
<edit: notice the smirk on the vvs dude's face? he knows.>
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And this is why I don't often post in the main forum. You don't get useful discussions, you get things like that.
lighten up Francis.
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Better is a a very broad term and like most aircraft comparisons it depends on the role in which the plane is used.
The K4 is best used as in interceptor. That is what it was designed to do and that is what it does best. For all practical purposes the 109G is a better dogfighter. Sure, some will be quick with the knee jerk in disagreeing with me and that is fine, but the 30mm is limited in many ways. While it only takes 1-2 hits with the 30mm to bring down another it is a lot harder to use that 30mm vs the 20mm thanks to velocity and trajectory. The K-4 is limited in what tricks it can rely on and the same can't be said for the G models. The G-14 is more like the K-4 than the G-6/G-2, and the G-2 is more like the F-4 than the G-6/G-14. Like most planes the later the war goes the more speed becomes a factor and the less common the tight turning planes.
I for one will hardly ever take the 109K-4 for anything. I'd rather take the 109G-14 with the triple 20mm bomber hunting that the K-4 and the single 30mm. While the K-4 is the fastest and climbs the best of the 109's, it is also the most quirky. It is the worst turning 109 and it is also quick to drop that left wing when trying to "ride the edge", heavy rudder is a lifesaver.
If a player wants to tinker with the 109's there really is no "better". They all are good planes that should not get in to a blatant turn fight, or chase a P51 or P47 in a dive when they lose their advantage. However, the 109F-4 and G-2 will surprise a lot of fighters in the turn. The 109G-6 is the most stable and forgiving 109, learn that and the others are easier to grasp. :)
Someone mentioned the E-4... yeah, fun to tinker with in the EW and MW arenas but suicide even more so than the P40's in the LW arena. :)
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The Krutch4 stops, with their practiced move, and resumes full speed better. :O I wonder if it could really do that ... :rolleyes:
I wish Nath would elaborate a little more... :headscratch:
I fly my G2 w/gondies.. so I start out with the more difficult plane and the disadvantage in most cases.
I can get most <without the special move> fairly easy :) I can even surprise some of the <special move > folks on occasion. :banana:
G2 all the way but the F is best... well it was... :cry
In the beginning, the K4 is an easy plane to survive in, tough plane to kill in. As you get the 30mm figured out, it becomes one of the most potent planes in the game.
Wiley.
Perk the K4 :aok
:cheers:
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The g-14 :aok
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lighten up Francis.
Damn, Francis is EVERYWHERE! Get yourself together Francis! :bhead
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The g-14 :aok
with gondies. :aok
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the F is best... well it was... :cry
that too. :furious :cry
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The Krutch4 stops, with their practiced move, and resumes full speed better. :O I wonder if it could really do that ... :rolleyes:
I wish Nath would elaborate a little more... :headscratch:
I fly my G2 w/gondies.. so I start out with the more difficult plane and the disadvantage in most cases.
I can get most <without the special move> fairly easy :) I can even surprise some of the <special move > folks on occasion. :banana:
G2 all the way but the F is best... well it was... :cry
Perk the K4 :aok
:cheers:
I'm curious what you're calling the 'special move'?
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I'm curious what you're calling the 'special move'?
Probably doing 360 snap rolls or near instantaneous back flips without losing control. I saved a film of myself doing (what I think) is a back flip in a K4. Will post it tomorrow. I honestly think that this was no way possible in RL, but I also think that this is a war game with planes, not a hardcore flight sim, so I don't mind it much. ;) Besides, not a whole lot of people know how to do these tricks anyways.
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It's not the K4, it's called a K$ - pronounced kay-money.
That should answer your question.
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I prefer the G2, it's lighter and you feel it when flying it when compared to the K4. Without WEP, the G2 is the 2nd fastest 109 though the G14 beats it with WEP on. Like already stated though, the K4 can give any fighter a tough time if you learn how to fly it well enough. The trouble is the 30mm. It's taken me 4 years to get a slight understanding of how to shoot it! :furious I like the 13mm's at 200 and the 30mm at 150, I get the best results with this set up.
If you really want to make every Spit, Brew, and Zeke feel silly though, fly the F4! :aok
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Depends. I've flown Luftwaffe aircraft for 4+ years, and I'm not going to say one is inherently better than the other.
For knife fighting, the G2 is probably the best in the set. There isn't anything it can't do at least acceptably, and it can really mix it up if you have to.
Personally, I prefer the K4, but its not necessarily "better". It takes a higher skill level pilot to fly it to its potential, is harder to aim with, and is vulnerable to more maneuverable aircraft. But if you master it, you'll be able to out fight most others in the game, perhaps even those G2 sticks....
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F is best... well it was... :cry
What do you mean "it was" ? Has something happened to it?
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For myself personally, I fly it what I call 'execution style'. I get in as close as I can, put the barrel against the back of his head, and pull the trigger. Ideally, I'm 100 yards or closer when I pull the trigger and the guy is in planform filling my windscreen.
Wiley.
The problem with this type of aerial gunnery is the guy in front of you wont necessarily keep still while you saddle him up.
Go offline and perform 45 and 90 degree AoA passes at the drones. Don't quit! You wont hit shiz when you start and it might take an hour (like it took me because I'm just learning it now too) to get some hits in but you'll feel better about the ballistics when you're done.
As Grizz used to say, "The K4 can outfly anything in capable hands but what makes it a platform of destruction is being able to kill quickly in it....very quickly"
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What do you mean "it was" ? Has something happened to it?
they clipped it's gondies. :furious :cry
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Since I'm on, and love the 109, I'll throw in my 2-Cents:
G-2 is awesome, G-6 is basically the same plane with a bit more punch... you'll get your nose up quicker in the G2. For my money though I'll go for the K4 for straight fighter CAP, I'll use the G-14 if there may be a bit of jabboing to do, however rather than the G-2, the 109F is the unsung hero of the 109 model. Once to speed it'll handle much like the K4 for diving and a quick zoom, and it has the 20mm package of the G-2. Only downside is it is a straight fighter model, so unless you've already got CAP or are running with numbers, it's a diffiuclt plane to fly home in.
K4/F4 FTW!!!
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nothing wrong with the G2, but the K4 will win every time with equal pilots. . . sorry, that K4 engine is really a thing all its own. The G2 is good even if I prefer the F4 if we are talking earlier 109s, but really. . .
to the OP: look at the year the planes were put into production - generally speaking later > earlier.
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The problem with this type of aerial gunnery is the guy in front of you wont necessarily keep still while you saddle him up.
Go offline and perform 45 and 90 degree AoA passes at the drones. Don't quit! You wont hit shiz when you start and it might take an hour (like it took me because I'm just learning it now too) to get some hits in but you'll feel better about the ballistics when you're done.
As Grizz used to say, "The K4 can outfly anything in capable hands but what makes it a platform of destruction is being able to kill quickly in it....very quickly"
Sorry, I guess I didn't describe it well. The 45 and 90 degree passes is what I meant by the 'crossing shots'. The tater chucker works so much better like that, which is the exact opposite of most other guns.
I find it funny that the safest thing to do against my K4 is point straight away from me and not change course, unless your aircraft is a mossie or bigger. :)
Wiley.
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I like the G2 in this comparison but prefer the F4.
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Fly a 109F and you'll fall in love with her. If you don't, your gay :banana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rawMdPlHsIw
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Different 109s for different purposes.... If you want to do tight, tiny, turns take the F4 or G2 (but, really, the F4), and if you want to stay fast enough and climb fast enough to compete with all those late war runners, take the G14 or K4.
G14 and K4 turn worse, but have the E regeneration you need for a fully flexible sortie, to adapt to any kind of target you may find. The 30mm lends to a different fighting style as well, but allows you to hit any random bombers you see.
F4 turns better, still capable enough to dogfight against larger numbers and come out on top, but the firepower is really more of a "kill one target at a time" type of engagement, and not as suitable for random bombers. You have to fight the turn fight in this plane, because it really isn't fast enough to keep up with the late war LWA monsters.
Both are great in their own right. Take either. Take both. Mix and match to meet your mood.
Let me tell you the real secret here, folks: You don't have to pick just one!
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Fly a 109F and you'll fall in love with her. If you don't, you're gay :banana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rawMdPlHsIw
Queen's English indeed, sir. :frown:
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(http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/uh43048,1250526679,Zvezda_La-5FN_48_cover.jpg)
I prefer the G-2.
(http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gdes/images/MT-201.jpg)
Camo
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Queen's English indeed, sir. :frown:
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTa1-sT9FbjcbO8W4coQnnhlDEqEBHTB4jVDrhTas6dQh1n0czG)
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German planes don't turn right. Baaaa...
Carry on
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Probably doing 360 snap rolls or near instantaneous back flips without losing control. I saved a film of myself doing (what I think) is a back flip in a K4. Will post it tomorrow. I honestly think that this was no way possible in RL, but I also think that this is a war game with planes, not a hardcore flight sim, so I don't mind it much. ;) Besides, not a whole lot of people know how to do these tricks anyways.
Here it is. Just 1:02 minutes long. Turns on trails for better visuals.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qvwdw12549h74n5
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In the MA the k4's speed and fire power along with it's potential maneuverability is king. You can get down and dirty and still build up speed quik enough to egress. not to mention above 5k it's faster then la7's in level flight and i believe faster then doras after 6 and faster then a tempy aft 7 or 8. But i say the G2 is better balanced. it's faster the the 38's. can climb great. Can turn great. but it's only a mid speed plane. and easaly caught by lala's pony' doras ext. as redbull said earlier. Practice them. learn them. and then choose
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(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTa1-sT9FbjcbO8W4coQnnhlDEqEBHTB4jVDrhTas6dQh1n0czG)
:rofl
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I prefer the G-2.
(http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gdes/images/MT-201.jpg)
Camo
I'm 10:2 so far this tour in my La-5FN vs 109's, all kinds. Bring your G2! :devil
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all/la5f_5gp.jpg)
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I'm 23:2 so far this tour in my La-5FN vs 109's, all kinds. Bring your G2! :devil
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all/la5f_5gp.jpg)
How in the world did you get 25 noobs in 109's to fight you? :D
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Um....neither. :D
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The k4 and G14 are bother superior in prop hanging and vertical performance. The G2 doesn't excel in any one category but it does nearly everything really well. I flew G2 for nearly 4 yrs as a Jabostaffle and it can put up a good fight if flown on the edge. I tear G14's up regularly, the K4 has so much vertical performance that it's a more difficult fight,but more times than not,will get them in a tight scissor and get the shot. K4 is a plane in it's own league . Seems everyone tends to think that sea level top speed is what will win,but that's only if your running. G2 is by far the most balanced of the 109's IMHO.
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Here it is. Just 1:02 minutes long. Turns on trails for better visuals.
http://www.mediafire.com/?qvwdw12549h74n5
This isn't unique to a 109 and is not so common as to be the key to getting any kill in a k4 as the poster and some others often suggest. I asked for him to answer because more than likely it's his perception of quick, but standard, over the top reversals. Which also aren't unique to k4's.
Nice acrobatics though. :aok :airplane:
Here's my 152 helicopter kill. hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs
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G2 is an excellent bird, but the k4 is the best one...
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This isn't unique to a 109 and is not so common as to be the key to getting any kill in a k4 as the poster and some others often suggest. I asked for him to answer because more than likely it's his perception of quick, but standard, over the top reversals. Which also aren't unique to k4's.
Nice acrobatics though. :aok :airplane:
Here's my 152 helicopter kill. hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs
More important is whether or not that was even possible in RL. I don't care much for it, since I don't think AH as a flight sim. But I do find it interesting though. I don't see even modern aerobatics planes doing moves like that.
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How in the world did you get 25 noobs in 109's to fight you? :D
You keep that up and I'll pull out my I16 again...... :furious
silly Spitfire pilots, tsk tsk :huh
;)
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More important is whether or not that was even possible in RL. I don't care much for it, since I don't think AH as a flight sim. But I do find it interesting though. I don't see even modern aerobatics planes doing moves like that.
I agree completely. :aok
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This isn't unique to a 109 and is not so common as to be the key to getting any kill in a k4 as the poster and some others often suggest. I asked for him to answer because more than likely it's his perception of quick, but standard, over the top reversals. Which also aren't unique to k4's.
Nice acrobatics though. :aok :airplane:
Here's my 152 helicopter kill. hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs
Was that an La-7 you kilt there? Awesome shot!
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Anyone remember when we had the 20mm Option in the G10, and the 30mm option in the G6? It was great, if you sucked with the 30mm, you could still fly the "fast" 109 with a 20mm, and if you like the 30mm, but wanted stability and simpler characteristics, you could fly the G6 with a 30mm. I really miss the 20mm option on the top tier 109, as I'm most un Grizz like with the 30mm.
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Was that an La-7 you kilt there? Awesome shot!
Yak9u :lol
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How in the world did you get 25 noobs in 109's to fight you? :D
LOL, sorry bout that faux pas on my part... just amended that post after looking at my scores again! :(
I can't remember what I was counting to get 23, it was really late when I looked at it the first time..... :uhoh
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Anyone remember when we had the 20mm Option in the G10, and the 30mm option in the G6? It was great, if you sucked with the 30mm, you could still fly the "fast" 109 with a 20mm, and if you like the 30mm, but wanted stability and simpler characteristics, you could fly the G6 with a 30mm. I really miss the 20mm option on the top tier 109, as I'm most un Grizz like with the 30mm.
A 109G10 wouldn't be a bad addition. The 109K's engine, but with a hybrid G-14/K4 body.
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You keep that up and I'll pull out my I16 again...... :furious
silly Spitfire pilots, tsk tsk :huh
;)
Do it...cuz now the I-16 has made it on the HO list. That list is: Brewster Mark XXI with full afterburner, A6M5b Zeke with thinning airfoils for high speed diving, and the ME-262 1A CUZICAN
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they clipped it's gondies. :furious :cry
Oh... Never used those things anyway.
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the k4 is way better as too many pilots who use it think of it as a 190 so they just try to hit and run :bolt:.
midway
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In an effort to help settle this dispute, I decided to fly back to Dallas from Pitt early and drive by the Cavanaugh Flight museum at Addison Airport. They have a Spanish 109F-4 because its better than both and I will speak to the curator, con him into letting me crack the cockpit open, sit in it, take photos, and post them here so that you all will be jealous. I will include his opinion in my summary.
(This is the museum that helped HTC with the cockpit renderings and, if I'm not mistaken, some of the flight modeling or verification of it)
Be jealous. Then, tonight I'm going to jump into the MA and kick your azzes. :aok
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Then, tonight I'm going to jump into the MA and kick your azzes. :aok
:aok :aok this is for sure.... you have been warned!
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I'm here now beeeyatches....up first....the 109
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-36.jpg)
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-31.jpg)
The P40N
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-33.jpg)
The Yak 3M
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-35.jpg)
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In an effort to help settle this dispute, I decided to fly back to Dallas from Pitt early and drive by the Cavanaugh Flight museum at Addison Airport. They have a Spanish 109F-4 because its better than both and I will speak to the curator, con him into letting me crack the cockpit open, sit in it, take photos, and post them here so that you all will be jealous. I will include his opinion in my summary.
The last Bf109F-4 was produced in May 1942. As the Cavanagh a/c was built in 1943, their a/c would be based on the Bf109G.
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The A-26
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-34.jpg)
The 109 cockpit
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-37.jpg)
(http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac300/Changeup1/photo-39.jpg)
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I spoke with the curator and showed him two AH films, one of Redbull in a 109 K4 and one of Krupnski in the same bird. The Redbull video was of him beating a Zeke on the deck and immediately a Spit and the Krup video was his YouTube video of "The perfect tail slide".
The curator said, " without a doubt the K4 could have performed those maneuvers in RL. The Germans just never needed to use the plane in that manner." "K4 had more power and was more torque-assisted than any other plane in WWII for its weight....and as long as the pilot could ride the rudder out of the stall, have enough room to pull out of his situation, absolutely."
Thank you and see you tonight.
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The last Bf109F-4 was produced in May 1942. As the Cavanagh a/c was built in 1943, their a/c would be based on the Bf109G.
Later than that, probably. Most (all?) bouchons were post-war, based on later 109G-6 airframes (this includes up to G-14s, though). This one is probably retrofitted with an earlier canopy for museum use, but you can see the big bumps on top of the wings because G-6s and later models had larger wheels.
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Later than that, probably. Most (all?) bouchons were post-war, based on later 109G-6 airframes (this includes up to G-14s, though). This one is probably retrofitted with an earlier canopy for museum use, but you can see the big bumps on top of the wings because G-6s and later models had larger wheels.
Yes, the curator said this one was crated for Spain and never put together until after the war for whatever reason. It never saw action but the Spit VIII above has 2.5 kills on the serial number. Not enough room to type it's story but it was England, France, N Africa, and finally Burma where it was eventually discovered.
BTW, I met Bearkat today....he works at the museum...nice young man and he gets to be around these machines all day long.
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Love the paint job on the "109", even if it is probably not historically correct. Hate the looks of that Spanish mongrel though... If the museum has any spare cash they should chop the nose of that HA and get a proper one from Eastern Europe, since the rest of the plane is a proper Gustaf.
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I'm 10:2 so far this tour in my La-5FN vs 109's, all kinds. Bring your G2! :devil
(http://airaces.narod.ru/all/la5f_5gp.jpg)
dont annoy me to go rook! :mad:
(no even talking about the bishs..) haha
:cheers:
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The last Bf109F-4 was produced in May 1942. As the Cavanagh a/c was built in 1943, their a/c would be based on the Bf109G.
Correct.
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dont annoy me to go rook! :mad:
(no even talking about the bishs..) haha
:cheers:
:cheers: Debrody, there are very very few 109's I fear when I am channeling the spirit of Ivan Kozhedub, but I bet you'd tower me quite frequently .... but I always am up for a fight!
I'd love to go to the DA with you sometime for some 109G vs La-5FN grudgefights, let me know! would be fun!
:salute
ps. added a few more 109's to that count last night :neener: even though I was flying horribly (I blame the tequila!)
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Love the paint job on the "109", even if it is probably not historically correct. Hate the looks of that Spanish mongrel though... If the museum has any spare cash they should chop the nose of that HA and get a proper one from Eastern Europe, since the rest of the plane is a proper Gustaf.
w3rd.
My calender hanging on the wall in my office features one of these Spanish Buchons, and I have to say a 109 with a Merlin makes for one HORRID looking bastard of an airplane.
I almost hate to look at the thing.
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109 F-4. Preferably in a white skin so you stand out more and cause fear in the wobbly legs of the meek.
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w3rd.
My calender hanging on the wall in my office features one of these Spanish Buchons, and I have to say a 109 with a Merlin makes for one HORRID looking bastard of an airplane.
I almost hate to look at the thing.
There's only one plane worse, and that's the Merlin-powered He-111s... twice the Merlins, twice the ugly!!
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All 109s are ugly. :neener:
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I spoke with the curator and showed him two AH films, one of Redbull in a 109 K4 and one of Krupnski in the same bird. The Redbull video was of him beating a Zeke on the deck and immediately a Spit and the Krup video was his YouTube video of "The perfect tail slide".
The curator said, " without a doubt the K4 could have performed those maneuvers in RL. The Germans just never needed to use the plane in that manner." "K4 had more power and was more torque-assisted than any other plane in WWII for its weight....and as long as the pilot could ride the rudder out of the stall, have enough room to pull out of his situation, absolutely."
Did you show him my Kung Fu Fighting video? It can be done in almost every plane in Aces High. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06f0GF0VAwA Only reason its done more often in the 109 is that the 109 is incredibly forgiving. Try this in a Spit16 or Ki84 and you can very easily throw it into a spin -- The K4 just auto corrects, and therefore the move is very accessible.
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Can be done with almost any aircraft in real-life too, just takes a complete moron to actually do it in anything but a purpose built stunt/display plane.
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Can be done with almost any aircraft in real-life too, just takes a complete moron to actually do it in anything but a purpose built stunt/display plane.
Why? Just do it in a 109, F4U, F6F, P47 or other plane in real life. If the flight model in AH is at all accurate it should be a very safe maneuver that's easy to recover from.
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Why? Just do it in a 109, F4U, F6F, P47 or other plane in real life. If the flight model in AH is at all accurate it should be a very safe maneuver that's easy to recover from.
Here, you go do it in a real plane, but before you do, let me take a life insurance policy out in your name, ok?
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What do you mean "why"? All the aircraft you've mentioned are fully aerobatic. You'd still be a moron for doing it in a vintage war-bird today though. However, back then I'm sure a lot of test pilots explored the departure characteristics of fighter aircraft. The 109, at least the early models, did have very forgiving departure characteristics to the point where you could "ride the stall" by holding it with the rudder, and hang on the prop and tail-slide.
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haha, no way. I really don't believe that maneuver is as forgiving in real life as it is in Aces High -- hence my interest in getting HTC's opinion on it or at least taking a look at it. So far they have been mute on the matter. They are busy. But the game should be about ACM, and this stuff is just "gamey" to the extreme.
Just an example but...
It took HTC 2 years to fix the flap model. At the start of AH2, if you dropped flaps, it made the nose DROP rather than go up.
Which is of course wrong. Flaps add lift and should push the nose up, even if a little bit.
HTC never tested it with combat trim enabled, so they didn't believe it was happening.
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What do you mean "why"? All the aircraft you've mentioned are fully aerobatic. You'd still be a moron for doing it in a vintage war-bird today though. However, back then I'm sure a lot of test pilots explored the departure characteristics of fighter aircraft. The 109, at least the early models, did have very forgiving departure characteristics to the point where you could "ride the stall" by holding it with the rudder, and hang on the prop and tail-slide.
You said I would be a fool to attempt this in real life. By this I'm assuming you mean it would result in me entering some crazy spin and end in a fiery wreck. This just does not occur in some planes in Aces High when doing this move. Some planes, such as the ones I mentioned and specifically the 109, reach a maximum nose-swinging degree and then just "snap back" to the normal angle. Hence me suggesting ("Why?"), if the Aces High flight model is at all realistic, this would be no danger at all to attempt in real life.
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Read the whole sentence... and stop assuming.
You seem to have a simplistic view of how flaps work. How flaps affect pitch is dependent of several factors: The increase in lift created by the increased wing area and chamber will lead to a pitch-up moment if the centre of pressure remains in front of the centre of gravity. If the associated rearward movement of the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity, then this will produce a nose-down pitch. The flaps will cause an increase in the downwash, and this will reduce the angle of attack of the tailplane, giving a nose-up moment. The increase in drag caused by the flaps will cause a nose-up or nose-down moment depending on whether the flaps are above or below the lateral axis.
In the 109 there was a noticeable nose-down movement when extending flaps.
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You seem to have a simplistic view of how flaps work. How flaps affect pitch is dependent of several factors: The increase in lift created by the increased wing area and chamber will lead to a pitch-up moment if the centre of pressure remains in front of the centre of gravity. If the associated rearward movement of the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity, then this will produce a nose-down pitch. The flaps will cause an increase in the downwash, and this will reduce the angle of attack of the tailplane, giving a nose-up moment. The increase in drag caused by the flaps will cause a nose-up or nose-down moment depending on whether the flaps are above or below the lateral axis.
In the 109 there was a noticeable nose-down movement when extending flaps.
Thanks for the detail, but I was just pointing out that at one time combat trim did not account for flap usage -- and HTC fixed it. Note, combat trim. Just pointing out an occasion where HTC really went out of there way to enhance the flight model.
Read the whole sentence... and stop assuming.
Can be done with almost any aircraft in real-life too, just takes a complete moron to actually do it in anything but a purpose built stunt/display plane.
So what's the reason I shouldn't attempt this maneuver in anything but a stunt plane? I seem to be missing the point, I guess. A totally recoverable maneuver shouldn't be at all moronic to attempt, right?
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I also noticed something curious about this move. It does not work with the engine off (yeah obviously we've known its a product of engine torque) but works with the throttle at zero, and in fact seems equally easy to engage at zero as 100% power.
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'
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Here's a Yak 55 doing the things you assume would end in a "fiery wreck". WWII fighters have better power to weight ratios than this Yak, and the turners like the Zeke and Brewster have similar wing loading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_GkJDUeYpk&feature=player_detailpage#t=40s
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Here's a Yak 55 doing the things you assume would end in a "fiery wreck". WWII fighters have better power to weight ratios than this Yak, and the turners like the Zeke and Brewster have similar wing loading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_GkJDUeYpk&feature=player_detailpage#t=40s
At which point in the video? I want to be sure we're looking at the same thing.
At around 00:40 I see a series of snap rolls, and throughout the video a number of hammerheads. Not exactly the same thing. Nor does the nose return to the original orientation when he's doing these hammerheads as it does when executing the "cobra" in Aces High (see the Krupnski video http://youtu.be/dBgHv_GgAW0) Cobrainski starts out the move slightly nose up and comes out of it slightly nose down, completing in almost 360.
In Aces High, the nose is swinging around laterally (sideways) almost 180 degrees.
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At 45 secs... It's just a simple accelerated stall, and the prop wash over the tail surface helps push it beyond its dynamic stability threshold making it pancake into the direction of travel. The more powerful the engine, and the larger control surfaces compared to stabilizers, the easier it is to do. Nowadays it is generally known as the "cobra maneuver" after Russian jet pilots started doing the same thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgHoBDW56CI
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Here's Peter Besenyei doing it in his typical extreme fashion... He departs sideways!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2M614k90r9c#t=151s
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At 45 secs... It's just a simple accelerated stall, and the prop wash over the tail surface helps push it beyond its dynamic stability threshold making it pancake into the direction of travel. The more powerful the engine, and the larger control surfaces compared to stabilizers, the easier it is to do. Nowadays it is generally known as the "cobra maneuver" after Russian jet pilots started doing the same thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgHoBDW56CI
Close, and I named my video after that since its a catchy title, but it is indeed very different in AH. The Russian jets are doing this move in the pitch axis, in Aces High it is almost entirely done in the yaw axis (although elevator input is required to execute it at first), as the nose is swinging violently lateral.
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See my Peter Besenyei post...
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109s have very large rudder surface compared to the stabilizer so it is very easy to make them depart sideways. Combined with a very powerful engine in a small airframe and you have something that can really do some impressive post-stall maneuvering.
Modern aerobatics planes ave all their control surfaces in the propwash so they remain in control after stalling. WWII fighters don't, so they lose most of their aileron control after departing. However they still have the rudder and elevators.
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Wow... look at Svetlana at 2:08 in the same vid... Very nice!
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See my Peter Besenyei post...
At 2:30 in? An impressive maneuver and indeed his nose swings a bit to the left when starting out, but again the nose of his aircraft does not swing and face in the opposite direction he's flying and bounce back to normal flight as it does in AH.
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Actually it does... and then he starts tumbling, seemingly uncontrollably, until he suddenly is nose down on a perfect line with the runway/raceway-straight. A reversal in flight direction is not unusual at all if you actually try to make it so. If you manage to push the plane beyond it dynamic stability threshold, and beyond 90 degrees, the propeller suddenly becomes a "drag-chute". If you then right the control surfaces, they will weathervane the aircraft back into controlled flight.
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Here's an Sukhoi performing a complete 360 degree flip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ALt3m3Kkhw
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Now teach me those moves in AH and ill find the way to use them as an ACM...
crazy stuff
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fyvjO1oFK4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk9lxciS4M0
Reading about the real "tailslide" and not what we in AH have called the tailslide has helped me understand a better way to get out of the crazy 152 spin. It still takes some effort and some alt right now though.
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Very useful for making people overshoot.
Is AH "easy mode"? ... Undoubtedly. However it must be since we don't get any of the feedback from the plane that we need to instinctively make the necessary control adjustments. After all, this game should be available to both squeekers and real-life veteran pilots alike.
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Reading about the real "tailslide" and not what we in AH have called the tailslide has helped me understand a better way to get out of the crazy 152 spin. It still takes some effort and some alt right now though.
Never had that problem in the 152. It has a big prop up front, and tiny stabilizers at the back; just need to stop the prop from acting like a drag-chute by shutting down the engine, then standard spin recovery procedure.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfOT6xjlTGs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fyvjO1oFK4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk9lxciS4M0
Reading about the real "tailslide" and not what we in AH have called the tailslide has helped me understand a better way to get out of the crazy 152 spin. It still takes some effort and some alt right now though.
That first film is very illustrative of the move, note how the nose swings around quite cleanly to face almost the opposite direction with very little splaying about of the nose. I don't see any of these acrobatic films doing that. And the jet thing is totally different since it seems to be pitch and not yaw.
In Ta 152 it can throw you into a serious spin.
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I'm not seeing that; to me it seems only to pancake into the direction of travel, firing straight up at the overshooting con, then starting to fall down.
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26232318/152flip.PNG)
That's the most extreme angle I could spot. Very much in line with what we see these aerobatic planes do.
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I suppose you've all seen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8
The CGI is overdone/fake, but listen to what the pilot says about how he does it...
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(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26232318/152flip.PNG)
That's the most extreme angle I could spot. Very much in line with what we see these aerobatic planes do.
That's near the angle when he got shot, but the angle was more acute before that. I didn't say complete 180, but nearly.
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I don't have combat film of it, but a 152 can essentially flip 180 and fly backwards. I will post film of it later.
I've been curious what the RV-8 can do in AH, but I can't remember how to enable it offline.
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I suppose you've all seen this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8
The CGI is overdone/fake, but listen to what the pilot says about how he does it...
FWIW In that video it shows the P51 doing it to the left, in AH it only works in the direction opposite of the engine torque which is typically right for most planes.
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I don't have combat film of it, but a 152 can essentially flip 180 and fly backwards. I will post film of it later.
I've been curious what the RV-8 can do in AH, but I can't remember how to enable it offline.
I've tried it in the RV8 and the most I can do is something like what that guy with the stache was doing in the red plane. Not a complete nose flipping situation more of a flat spin nose pivot.
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FWIW In that video it shows the P51 doing it to the left, in AH it only works in the direction opposite of the engine torque which is typically right for most planes.
Don't look at the video. Don't listen to the narrator. Just listen to what the pilot says about how he did it.