Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: WW1965 on May 08, 2013, 09:32:51 AM
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ok, I've been playin since mid Feb, & I'm gettin the hang of a few things..
But the one that just baffles me is Combat Trim..
What does it do ??
When to turn it on or off ??
Does it depend on speed ??
Can it be set to a speed ??
Or is it better to leave it off & learn to live without it all together ??
Thx!!
W-W
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You'll get many opinions as to its use.
Basically it adjusts your trim settings based on speed. It is not perfect, but does a good job to get your plane trimmed up if you're all jacked up. It doesn't work very well on either side of the speed envelope for the plane - too fast or too slow makes for strange things sometimes. Using flaps really messes it up.
I usually use CT most of the time. I'll turn it off when in a stall-fight when I'm using flaps a lot, and it's off when I'm landing.
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Combat trim basically assumes a clean airframe and sets your trims based on your airspeed. I believe it adjusts in 5mph increments, something like that anyways. Missing parts will put you out of trim when using combat trim. Heavy with ords doesn't seem to make too much difference from what I have seen.
I use it most of the time. If I'm BnZing, I leave it on because my speed is varying a lot through an attack run. It's also good for the phase after I've autoclimbed to alt and am looking for a target. Set it and forget about it.
Where I find it to be a hindrance is during stallfights. You can be much smoother with your turns at low speeds without it constantly affecting the inputs you're giving your plane. The differences are small, but that's generally where stallfights are won, is the little things. My usual rule of thumb is to turn it off when my speed hits 150 if I figure it's going to turn into a stallfight.
Landing, I usually leave it off particularly if I'm missing parts. I get my flaps out and hit autotrim on angle at the speed I want until the pipper stops moving, then move the stick to turn it off and proceed to land.
Wiley.
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On some planes like the P-38, it's best to use manual trim instead of combat trim.
ack-ack
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On some planes like the P-38, it's best to use manual trim instead of combat trim.
ack-ack
Other than using it to get out of high speed dives, does it really make much difference on the 38? I barely notice when that thing's out of trim ever. In game, I only ever trim it up and down until the inevitable part shedding occurs.
Wiley.
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Other than using it to get out of high speed dives, does it really make much difference on the 38? I barely notice when that thing's out of trim ever. In game, I only ever trim it up and down until the inevitable part shedding occurs.
Wiley.
The 38 is very easy to trim. Elevator is all that's really needed unless you've got parts missing.
Per AkAk's suggestion (I think :headscratch:) in another thread, I started setting elevator trim to slightly nose down to help compensate for nose jump. Pretty big difference in nose stability when in a fight, especially when going vertical to get that shot at the top of a loop.
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Or is it better to leave it off & learn to live without it all together ??
for now, leave it on.
When you have time, go offline. Scream straight down till you're shaking like a rag doll. Mash on the K key. Have your E6B open. K trims up. I trims down. Play with that for a little with a few planes offline.
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dam, thanks Hap, you just reminded me of the 2 button settings i forgot on my joystick...
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On some planes like the P-38, it's best to use manual trim instead of combat trim.
ack-ack
I had switched to manual but got lazy and stayed with CT on. I will go back to manual again as you suggested.
Just a note on the 38 to those having yet to try manual trim. If you do use manual up trim to pull out of a high speed dial it does act like the 38 has flaps down till you get it trim again
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Combat trim is a sort of auto trim,it's based on a set of scales based on airspeed.
One thing CT doesn't do is compensate for flaps,if you deploy flaps you'll notice that CT dials in full up trim on the elevator. This is what some players have difficulties with,at lower speeds and with flaps deployed you have to counter the nose up pitch.
This can cause problems when trying to aim as you're giving forward stick to counter the pitch and you can have issues with nose bounce.
Even the 38 with the counter rotating props has issues with the nose up pitch when using CT, this is why most dedicated 38 drivers use manual trim as you only really need to adjust the elevator trim.
I still use CT about 90% of the time,I have a button to toggle CT on/off and use a hatswitch to adjust my trim as needed. I use CT because it reduces pilot load and I find the only time I need to use manual trim is when I'm approaching flaps speed.
YMMV.
:salute
PS: If you fly 109's a lot having a button to trim up the elevator is a must,ideally you should have both up and down trim mapped.
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I have been experimenting with going from CT on to CT off at XXXspeed depending on the aircraft and prior to getting into the fight. ie: F4U-1A XXX = 325 indicated then I turn off CT and now ready to fight. For HurriII, Zero's, Ki-43 the XXX speed I use is 280-300. Once I turn CT off it stays off for the duration of the sortie.
Does this process help handling the aircraft control and gunnery?
If so, what is the optimal XXXspeed for each fighter? (or how do I calculate the XXXspeed by aircraft?).
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I'm not sure if I can answer your question but you might want to use "trim set" that will lock the trim setting at the speed your at when you press the command. By default it's the period key,it basically sets the trim that combat trim has slected for the speed you are going. {hope this makes sense}
As far as helping with handling,control and shooting,personally I think if it works for you go with it. There are so many variables that it's difficult to say exactly. Some will say set the trim to neutral around corner speed,myself I leave CT on until in need to deploy flaps then I go to manual trim,some just let CT do it's thing and others trim their plane manually through the whole flight.
So while experimenting is good if it aint broke don't fix it. I think working on your SA is more important than working on trim as the game has a auto type trim built in but it does little to help with SA.
YMMV.
:salute
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What I find is when you get slow and are dropping flaps the CT will over compensate. What happens in a 38 is you zoom to 30-40 mhp (piece of cake to flop over even that slow) if you have CT on it will get "stuck" in the air. Recovery is slow and you will always miss your shot you worked for. With CT off it is easy to rudder and roll right over and pop how ever many were foolish enough to follow you up.
This effect gets worst in single engine planes and really hurts any turning ability you try to get out of them at slow speeds. I most cases I get to alt, level off building speed to 300-375 depending on which plane Im in. Nose down just a bit, let off the stick then kick off the CT. In most cases this "nose low" setting lets e fly at most fighting speeds with out having to mess with trim. YMMV, but it works well for me.
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It's a thick/multifaceted subject to digest with just one question. Many great contributions to it already.
First, I'd like you to notice where the trim tabs/gauge/display is in your particular aircraft, it shows the current position of your three trim settings (elevator, rudder and ailerons).
Second, go fly some sorties, pay regular attention to what is going on with your trim in auto-combat-trim mode. Particularly how it is constantly tweaking/adjusting for every change in speed.
Lastly, experiment with it off and your own trimming, noting already where about it should be normally for your flight condition and for what you want to do/accomplish.
I mostly fly with combat trim on, but will disengage it by entering in some manual trim at the very bleeding edge of stalls or to compensate for damage.
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As Ack Ack said, some planes are very easy to fly with CT off. The 109 for a beginner pilot CT will help quite a bit, but in stall fights, and near top diving speed, it's handy to have a toggle to flip it on and off, and there is a setting for this in AH2's control setup for your stick/throttle buttons. The 109 I've always found myself using manual trim most of the time, and using Ack Ack's tip for trimming nose low works very well with the 109 as well to cut down on floppy nose, as its armament is all in the nose (most of the time) as well.
The best thing you can do is follow everybody's advice here, and leave it on for now, but map a button on your HOTAS if you have one to toggle it on and off, and map a hat for elevator and aileron trim. Elevator is the one you'll be using most of the time, so if you have limited stick buttons, make sure that's the one you pick.
As a new pilot's skills progress, and flaps start being used more and more in fights, you'll find that switching combat trim off as soon as combat is expected will become automatic. As stated here, flaps and combat trim mix very badly, and make your nose point very strangely, to the point where you'll be fighting it in no time trying to keep your nicely aimed shot lead in the place it should be.
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It will cripple the Ki-84 as well.
I think it works well for the Spitfire.
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It will cripple the Ki-84 as well.
I think it works well for the Spitfire.
really :headscratch:
you mean having it on?
I leave it on and pay zero attention to it.....my KI does quite well.
stall limiter ya leave that off, but combat trim isn't enough of a difference IMO
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I was gonna start a thread about trims, but maybe jumping in here is OK.
I primarily use CT, but I find myself losing control when I pop flaps or go as slow as others seem to be able to. Always rolling right into the turf.
I have 2 pots set up for aileron and elevator trims, but I just cannot find the balance that works, hence I default to CT. Without it I could not take my hands off the stick. Continued rolling and pitch happens. With manual trims I can eliminate some but not all instability. Do I have to be constantly tweaking these or should I be able to find a sweet spot?
What is the proper use of trims please?
My stick is homebuilt, full scale spitfire set up, so I have a lot more range of motion than a standard desktop stick. I luv the stick but certain nuances are escaping me when it comes to the minor adjustments.
Only a desktop pilot so go ez on me.
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Wow!! great replies & thanx to you all for replying.. :cheers:
FYI - I've got all but the rudder trim set to dials on my x52.. rudder trim is on a hat switch,.. also CT on/off is mapped.. 'set trim xxx' is a great idea.. thx for that..
I also didn't know that CT was incremental.. makes sense now that I think about it.. also explains the nose bouncing..
MADe said -> I primarily use CT, but I find myself losing control when I pop flaps or go as slow as others seem to be able to. Always rolling right into the turf.
yup that's me sir, & any kind of bad behavior the plane might have comes out very quickly, & is fatal down on the deck..
Karnak said-> It will cripple the Ki-84 as well. I think it works well for the Spitfire.
And then Ink said-> really? you mean having it on? I leave it on and pay zero attention to it.....my KI does quite well. stall limiter ya leave that off, but combat trim isn't enough of a difference IMO
just goes to show its the man & not the plane.. :rock one reason I love this game.. :D
Hap said-> for now, leave it on. When you have time, go offline. Scream straight down till you're shaking like a rag doll. Mash on the K key. Have your E6B open. K trims up. I trims down. Play with that for a little with a few planes offline.
I will do this.. thanx
I'm hearing a lot from the 38 drivers (<S!>) which is just my luck cuz I suck in it.. but what you guys are saying makes sense.. Ki84 & 109 drivers seem to agree..
Use the CT for the mundane, but when the tension/speeds starts up/down outside of the mundane, turn CT off & tweek the manual trim..
off to practice..
Thanx again all for the replies..
W-W
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I was gonna start a thread about trims, but maybe jumping in here is OK.
I primarily use CT, but I find myself losing control when I pop flaps or go as slow as others seem to be able to. Always rolling right into the turf.
I have 2 pots set up for aileron and elevator trims, but I just cannot find the balance that works, hence I default to CT. Without it I could not take my hands off the stick. Continued rolling and pitch happens. With manual trims I can eliminate some but not all instability. Do I have to be constantly tweaking these or should I be able to find a sweet spot?
What is the proper use of trims please?
My stick is homebuilt, full scale spitfire set up, so I have a lot more range of motion than a standard desktop stick. I luv the stick but certain nuances are escaping me when it comes to the minor adjustments.
Only a desktop pilot so go ez on me.
The primary use of trim is to allow straight and level flight without holding the stick. When you set trim you are setting it for your current speed. When your speed changes you need to change the trim. Combat trim changes the trim according to your speed. It's not as precise as manual trim but it's close enough. You can also use auto pilot to set trim at cruising speed and that will be a generally useful setting but since you have 2 controllers set to manually trim your ailerons and elevator you will default to the manual settings whenever you turn combat trim or auto pilot off.
If you note the position of the trim tab indicators in the cockpit you will see the correct position for cruising speed and you can match those settings with your manual trim settings when you turn auto pilot off.
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I'm a P-38 driver and agree with the others it's best left off in that bird. I'll use it as a sort of "quick trim", toggling it on then off in order to center up at a given speed, then usually tapping elevator down trim a few notches as I prefer it that way. If left on what happens is it wants to give you elevator up trim at slow speeds causing you to fight the nose down. At higher speeds, such as in a dive, I'm actively on the elevator trim the whole time anyway. On that note if you're using the dive recovery flap on the 38-L, combat trim will tend to negate its pitch up action as it's trimming nose down more and more as speed increases.
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OK,
Thing is about manual trim, my speed is constantly changing. Only time my speed is consistant is on way to target or climbing to alt.
When in attack mode how do you approach trim?
I mean that when fighting your constantly popping flaps on/off, looping, scissoring. Speed is changing constantly. I find I can really only be a B&Z pilot because of my in ability to turn with others at slow speeds, they always turn tighter.
Also how much does trimming change when carrying ordnance or with a full tank?
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OK,
Thing is about manual trim, my speed is constantly changing. Only time my speed is consistant is on way to target or climbing to alt.
When in attack mode how do you approach trim?
I mean that when fighting your constantly popping flaps on/off, looping, scissoring. Speed is changing constantly. I find I can really only be a B&Z pilot because of my in ability to turn with others at slow speeds, they always turn tighter.
Also how much does trimming change when carrying ordnance or with a full tank?
It depends on what you fly. If Im flying a TnB type plane I'll set my nose low a bit at 250-300 and trim there. For a zoomer type I trim the same way but for 300-350. At those speeds I don't get the effects of getting stuck in the air, but still maintain some sability of my plane.
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really :headscratch:
you mean having it on?
I leave it on and pay zero attention to it.....my KI does quite well.
stall limiter ya leave that off, but combat trim isn't enough of a difference IMO
Ki-84 cannot pull enough Gs to blackout at 400mph if CT is on. If you can only pull 3Gs and your enemy can pull 6Gs he can turn inside of you before you get your speed down enough to match him. Turning it off fixes that, or at least significantly raises the speed at which it becomes an issue.
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Not to quibble too much here, but I just upped a KI-84:
Initial conditions were... 1/2 bag of gas, 400IAS, 15K and 10K runs:
RESULTS:
Combat Trim turned ON
= 5.2 Gs at 400IAS
= 6.0 Gs at 375(ish)
= 6.8 Gs at 330 or so ... things were kinda hard to see at that point
Combat Trim turned OFF
= 6.0 Gs at 400IAS
= 6.8 Gs at 350(ish)... things were kinda hard to see at that point
....
My conclusions (off only 4 data runs in KI-84):
1) COMBAT TRIM=OFF gives you a very slight initial G advantage (It doesn't last long)
2) COMBAT TRIM=ON denies you a very slight aerodynamic advantage in terms of pure trim, BUT generally speaking relieves you of the burden of having to constantly trim for optimum flight.
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Like INK, I personally have it on {almost always} and find very little negative effect. For most fighting conditions, the pluses outweigh the minuses.
If you need the extra knot or two on a Dash :airplane:(polite way to say run away or run down), consider learning how to trim manually.
- Rodent57
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Try it at 450.
The faster you go the bigger the initial advantage.
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Karnak Sir,
You are correct ... you can max perform the plane more readily with COMBAT TRIM = OFF.
At 450IAS there is absolutely no problem slapping 6 Gs+ onto yourself in a KI-84 with COMBAT TRIM=OFF. As a matter of truth I, KO'd myself 3 out of 4 times by not releasing backstick pressure quickly enough while testing COMBAT TRIM=OFF.
Whereas it ain't gonna happen nearly so often with COMBAT TRIM=ON
....
My flight test showed (Level Turn):
COMBAT TRIM = OFF
Starting at 450IAS (15K') you can pull roughly 7.6 instantaneous Gs, which rapidly settle down to about 5.8-6 Gs [Rate = 16.2 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 2328']
- at the 18 sec point you are at 375IAS and 6.3 Gs [Rate = 20.9 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1511']
- at the 22 sec point you are at 345IAS and 6.8 Gs [Rate = 24.5 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1183']
- at the 26 sec point you are at 335IAS and 2.5 Gs (and blacked out) [Rate = 8.6 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 3274']
- at the 35 sec point you are at 380IAS and 6.0 Gs (80 degrees nose low attitude, recovering, having now regained consciousness ... it seemed a lot longer than 10 secs BTW) [Rate = 16.2 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1970'] * NOTE This is an effective 5G turn at the bottom of the energy egg
************************************
COMBAT TRIM = ON
Starting at 450IAS (15K') you can pull roughly 5.8 instantaneous Gs which rapidly settle down to about 5 Gs [Rate = 13.7 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 2763']
- at the 18 sec point you are at 390IAS and 5.2 Gs [Rate = 16.5 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1992']
- at the 22 sec point you are at 380IAS and 5.6 Gs [Rate = 18.2 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1752']
- at the 26 sec point you are at 355IAS and 6.0 Gs [Rate = 21.0 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1424']
- at the 35 sec point you are at 340IAS and 6.2 Gs [Rate = 22.6 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1263']
- at the 40 sec point you are at 310IAS and 6.5 Gs [Rate = 26.0 degrees/Sec, Radius of turn = 1000']...(and at the black out point)
...
Now obviously, a more skilled COMBAT TRIM=OFF player probably wouldn't put knock himself out as easily (or as often) as I did ...
then again, I found maintaining control easier with COMBAT TRIM = ON.
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If I had been fighting me, 'COMBAT TRIM=OFF me' would have been winning the rate/radius fight for the first 22 secs (having gained somewhere around 105 degrees on 'COMBAT TRIM=ON me' and with an inside position-- assuming we met 180 out to start the fight, and fought a level turn fight--which would be silly to do) .... then depression set in as I went to sleep and 'COMBAT TRIM=ON me' rapidly regained angles (200 or so), while 'COMBAT TRIM=OFF me' napped.
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In conclusion: The purist in me agrees that COMBAT TRIM = OFF is the better technical solution if you are skilled enough to take advantage of it.
For the rest of us, I still endorse COMBAT TRIM=ON for most scenarios.
<S>
-Rodent57
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Hmp... So the net effect is a slight bit of damping. I may have to put in the time to learn to turn it off somewhat sooner.
Great info, Rodent. Thanks for putting in the time.
Wiley.
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Rodent pointed out some great stuff. It takes regular practice before getting used to like most things, when best to bother inputting manual trim in combat and when its best ot leave it be. Start with flat or vertical turns and adding more up elevator... it does "help" but to a point, in the end it all boils down to exercising some caution as you will have to contend with blacking out and in some instances ripping parts of your own plane off.
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Thanks for posting the hard numbers, Rodent.
<S>
I'll admit I thought it was a bigger difference than it is. It sure felt like a bigger difference when I switched it. :p
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Thanks for posting the hard numbers, Rodent.
<S>
I'll admit I thought it was a bigger difference than it is. It sure felt like a bigger difference when I switched it. :p
I have the same impression Karnak so youre not alone. Its similar in the 109s at high speed,if you look at trim indicators you will see CT has dialed in almost full down elevator trim and I think that's what makes it seem like theres a bigger difference than there is.
I;m with Rodent as far as combat trim goes on a whole,I use it 90% of the time and the only 2 plane I use manual trim on are the P38 and the KI84.I tend to toggle CT on or off in the 109 and other planes but usually have it off on the 2 mentioned above.
:salute
PS: some great info there Rodent!
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all the 16's and brews that die to my Ki, didn't notice a difference.
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You guys manually trimming in single engine planes... are you just trimming elevator or are you also trimming aileron and rudder?
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A couple of things I've noticed since I've been thinking about this while flying..
#1- I'm thinking about this rather than flying/fighting.. & it sux, but I am learning a few things.. so hopefully, in the future, it'll become 2nd nature & reaction rather than a conscious effort..
#2- CT off @ low speeds seems to help if only because I'm controlling the input & it's not being 'Moderated'.. since I posted this original, I've noticed I look down during a fight & the CT is off, & I thought it was on, & well, if it ain't broke don't fix it..
Question: If AutoP is off, CT is on, what will turn the CT off automatically?? Is it adjusting the trim manually??
#3- if I turn on 'autoclimb' & use the '.speed XXX' & throttle back to 0%, it'll drop pretty quick with minimal input..
Question: is the '.speed xxx' command basically the same as the '.set trim xxx' command?? Or does the '.set trim XXX' just set the trim @ that speed until you change it??
I've got a few more ???'s but I gotta pee... :D
W-W
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ok, I've been playin since mid Feb, & I'm gettin the hang of a few things..
But the one that just baffles me is Combat Trim..
What does it do ??
When to turn it on or off ??
Does it depend on speed ??
Can it be set to a speed ??
Or is it better to leave it off & learn to live without it all together ??
Thx!!
W-W
There is a more complete answer to your question about trim then what I've read here in the forum.
The only time you want to fly an aircraft out of trim is when trying to slow it down or in a Crab for cross wind landings, that's real life, not here in cartoon land. The reason we need aircraft trim is because Air Speed, Angle of Attack and Weight and Balance are always changing in an aircraft. The controls surfaces when used produce a certain amount of moment. The moment is a force used to change the attitude of the aircraft, pitch or roll. The pilot feels these forces through the controls and can be very fatiguing. In WWII. Not all aircraft had hydraulic boosted or hydraulic controls. Trim tabs were designed to produce a counter force to offset the original moment produced by the controls. In most complex aircraft, trim tabs can be adjusted from the cockpit.
Even modern aircraft, in my airline days, when women first ventured into the front office, there was worry that should the hydraulic boosted controls on the 727 fail, would a women be strong enough to fly the bird for an hour, and fly a low approach do to weather, execute a missed approach with two engines out and bring it around for a second approach. (This never actually happened, except in simulation) This did happen , DC8 hydraulic boosted controls with runaway trim , two male pilots could not over ride the nose up trim command and they quickly exceeded the AOA and crashed at JFK on takeoff.
I don't know how trim is modeled within AH, whether it takes into account Air Speed, Angle of Attack and Weight and Balance or if it only takes into account Air Speed as all of the answers I've seen posted on the forum here have stated. There are many links that you can go to and get a more complete and accurate description of Aircraft Trim. Hope this helped.