Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Grayclif on May 10, 2013, 08:47:26 AM
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Dear HTC,
Please take a look at updating the handling characteristcs of the A-20.
Last night I was out-turned by an A-20 while flying a P-51D in a dogfight at 14k alt. We entered into a tight turn fight at this alt and within 2 complete circles, the A-20, piloted by "Cobia38", was able to turn inside my pony (even with my flaps deployed and WEP power) for the kill. Having known a pilot who flew real A-20's, being a pilot myself, and comparing the two real aircrafts qualities; this would not have been possible. Even under ideal conditions for the A-20 could not turn with such a nimble fighter. Especially in air that dense.
The A-20 pilot I know, said that the A-20 has a lot of climbing power, and turns fairly well if speeds were high, but that is about it. "It was dog in the air for the most part, handling much like an empty B-25. But if you we're going over 300 mph the Havoc would pull vertical with the best of 'em." "You put it thru the mill in dives and g-loading, it just couldn't turn worth a damn".
Either yet another hack has joined the ranks, or the A-20 needs a big big mod. Please fix.
Thank you.
Regards,
The Grayclif
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LOL! Carry on! :aok You don't turn WITH an A20!
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P-51D was not a nimble fighter.
Nimble fighters are things like the A6Ms, Brewster, F4Fs, I-16, Hurricanes and, perhaps, some Spitfires and Bf109s.
It sounds like you got into a pure turn radius fight and there are many bombers that will beat many fighters in a pure turn radius contest. Turn rate will almost always favor fighters, but you need to keep speed up and not be using flaps.
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I agree. However, certainly nimble compared to a big twin engine torque monster.
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I agree. However, certainly nimble compared to a big twin engine torque monster.
Torque monster? I don't think you know what that means. Your P-51D has more torque.
It is a big airplane with, what, 3000hp total? Compare that to little things like the Spit XIV and Bf109K-4 with 2000hp. Having two engines also mutes torque effects to a degree. Lastly, torque has little to do with turning.
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sounds like he ran into cobia in his a20 death machine... :rofl you shouldn't have been turning with him, especially in a pony. boom and zoom, use slashing attacks, don't try to take him down in 1 pass unless you have cannons.
you should ask cobia for a ride along and get some tips from him on how he flies that thing...there aren't many who can fly the a20 like he does.
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A properly trimmed c-47 can also out turn your p-51 for the same reasons the a-20 can. :ahand
You rammed me in my Storch last night with guns blazing in same pony without doing me any damage. If that is your aptitude than it's no surprise that Cobia beat your ass.
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I had only a few rounds left on my storch and you pulled up into me but I got the collide. I landed with half a wing none-the-less. Which adds to my arguement concerning realism.
Anyhow, fact remains that the A-20 can not out turn a pony. Not possible. As the creators of this game strive to be realistic, they should re-evaluate the A-20. My arguement is, that if they had the A-20 handling correct, last nights out come would have had me out turning him instead.
And you must not ever have flown real aircraft, because P factor has a HUGE impact on turning. And only when both engines are setup to turn in opposite directions on a twin, does it not play much of a factor. Fly something as small as a Cessna 140 and try some tight turns at full power to the right and the left. Then try the same in a Piper Seneca.
-poof-
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Fear the A-20 when cobia38 is flying it! :eek:
He picked a ride that suits him well and is Very good at it.
I wonder if he has dual throttles like some good P-38 pilots do. Don't underestimate them either.
Film your sorties and see where you went wrong. :old:
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With center mounted guns, good turning, rented mule durability, and excellent zoom potential, the A-20 is a beast for sure.
That Cobia guy is alright in it... I guess. :neener:
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The only place I went wrong was picking a fight with a plane that is not setup correctly. Wouldn't made much difference who was flying it if HTC has given it a turn advantage over P51's. (Which again, it should not have)
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The only place I went wrong was picking a fight with a plane that is not setup correctly. Wouldn't made much difference who was flying it if HTC has given it a turn advantage over P51's. (Which again, it should not have)
uh ok...if it was anyone else, you probably would have out turned it.
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The only place I went wrong was picking a fight with a plane that is not setup correctly. Wouldn't made much difference who was flying it if HTC has given it a turn advantage over P51's. (Which again, it should not have)
In the fight you chose to have with it, yes it should. In any other fight you could have chosen it doesn't have the advantage.
The failure was all yours.
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The only place I went wrong was picking a fight with a plane that is not setup correctly. Wouldn't made much difference who was flying it if HTC has given it a turn advantage over P51's. (Which again, it should not have)
So you have acess to HTCs flight model specs for the A-20? Do you have access to aeronautical specs on P-51s and A-20s to prove your claims? Oh you don't? My opinion is you got in a low/slow turn fight in an airframe that doesn't like to be slow. You should probably learn some things about the abilities and characteristics of the 51 series before spouting off on some crazy A-20 witch hunt.
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Dear Grayclif,
Please do not confuse turn radius and turn rate. A slow A20 will turn inside a P51 because its turn radius becomes smaller. You have not been outturned, you have been outflown. ;)
But many fighter-pile-its tend to be overconfident when it comes to big two engined things.. which is why the A20 is so much fun :aok
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-I was utterly owned by a much lesser plane.
-I dont suck the biggest one, rather make the much lesser plane even worse.
-Cobia38 cheats anyways. Ban him from the game.
:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
Thats it dood, keep coming :aok
btw, Cobia38 is a friggen circle jerk!!!!!!
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Dear HTC,
(http://www.goldismoney2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10341&d=1287528280&thumb=1)
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I Use the Boston in the same respect. Although I have to be close for the 303's :bhead
anyone know if they how much lighter the Boston is compared to the a20?
A20 feels like it carries more fuel, and the engines feel stronger. Opinions/facts?
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Gray,
I'm a pilot too. This is a cartoon plane combat game no matter what the "experts" of the game say. It is pretty arcadish. Play it as it is and have fun. Give you a hint, take drop tanks and 25% fuel. Drop the tanks before you engage and you will be surprised how well the p51 turns.
After this statement, watch all the flak I'm going to get. LMFAO!
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Actually, I do have many specs on file at home from the Smithsonian. And looking at the two over my lunch today, my arguement is confirmed.
Oh and pony's can fly very slow with flaps at full and full power. Turn radius much better then an A20 based on wing length and airfoil. While the A20 has a slightly shorter stall thresh-hold.
Bottom line, HTC needs to revamp the A-20 if they are striving for realism. End of discussion.
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sorry,couldent resist :devil
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/tie20.jpg.html)
but seriously Graycliff,you killed yourself when you decided to get sloppy. if you filmed it,watch it and you will see what I,m talking about :salute
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Not sloppy. Just picked a fight with a plane that is setup as being a better turner then a pony when it shouldn't be. I guess I will fly those A20s from now on if this is the case.
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Actually, I do have many specs on file at home from the Smithsonian. And looking at the two over my lunch today, my arguement is confirmed.
Oh and pony's can fly very slow with flaps at full and full power. Turn radius much better then an A20 based on wing length and airfoil. While the A20 has a slightly shorter stall thresh-hold.
Bottom line, HTC needs to revamp the A-20 if they are striving for realism. End of discussion.
I didn't realize that one fight is what decides whether the modeling of an aircraft is wrong or not. Everyone that has posted has given you reasons as to why the A-20 could have out turned your pony. On top of that, nothing you have said has disproved human error. Unless you have film of the A-20 doing something completely impossible, just jot it down as a mistake and try to figure out what went wrong. :salute
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sorry,couldent resist :devil
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/tie20.jpg.html)
but seriously Graycliff,you killed yourself when you decided to get sloppy. if you filmed it,watch it and you will see what I,m talking about :salute
:rofl :rofl :aok
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I don't film. Never have. You have to "unzip" files or some garbage and I don't know how to do that.
Whenevre I used to try and film fights, the files would never play or open.
POOF
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A20 with a gunner is a sleeper coming up off a field where FH have just been knocked down.
D3 with a gunner is same as above.
Fly them and see sir.
I fight them on a Ki84 and they turn inside of me if the turn is flat and not oblique.
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Wing length is completely irrelevant to turning without knowing a whole lot of other numbers as well.
Wing loading favors the A-20G (when not laden with bombs and fuel, which Cobia's never is) over the P-51D's. What makes you think the P-51D should turn a tighter radius? The airfoil difference would need to be huge to make up the wingloading difference. Powerloading at WWII levels of powerloading don't make much difference.
For what it is worth, in the Mossie VI, which has very close turn performance to the P-51D in AH, I never try turn with A-20Gs and they are helpless targets. Even Cobia I'd think, though I haven't fought him.
Just don't take liberties.
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I remember about 5 years back when a lancaster out turned my spit9 at a very slow stall speed. he also had a gunner so I died. for a while I tried to get gunners so I could turn fight in bombers, but the idea died.
it is still fun though every now and then to get a gunner and turn fight against a fighter that thinks he's got an easy kill :banana:.
semp
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Sounds like another case of an inferior pilot running into a superior pilot, gets shot down and comes to the BBS to whine about the flight model in an attempt to explain away his suckage.
ack-ack
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First and Last mistake was TURNING with an A20. That is not the Pony's rule of engagement. Lesson learned. :cheers:
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And you must not ever have flown real aircraft, because P factor has a HUGE impact on turning.
In my experience with real aircraft that statement isn't true, at least to the level that you can see/feel/detect when flying.
I've flown Cubs, Cessnas, Mustang, B-17 and B-24.
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Manuals with some data in them.
Douglas A-20 A Flight Op Inst (March 1941) - Complete.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/kkcz_yw2/Douglas_A-20_A_Flight_Op_Inst_.html)
Douglas A-20 G & J, P-70 A & B Flight Op Inst (Nov.1944) - C.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/ZmgSzj78/Douglas_A-20_G__J_P-70_A__B_Fl.html)
Douglas A-20 G Havoc Erection & Maintenance - INCOMPLETE.pdf (http://www.4shared.com/office/MZV26Ynv/Douglas_A-20_G_Havoc_Erection_.html)
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Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
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Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
Do it, mouthpiece. Film it too. Post it.
Go forward, admit your suckage more, mooooore....
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I Love how these pop up every so often.
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There is little in this game that makes you realize how crap your piloting is as much as Cobia in that stupid plane...
A quintessential 'I suck, please change the game.' thread if ever I saw one.
Wiley.
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Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
LOL!!!! and we have a new winner!!!! :banana:
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Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
I see the opposite continuing to happen.
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The prophet is always scorned in his own time.
Haters only hate the best. Flattery is the best form of compliment.
Thank you all.
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Admin, please do something appropiate.
#4, 7, 8
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I Use the Boston in the same respect. Although I have to be close for the 303's :bhead
anyone know if they how much lighter the Boston is compared to the a20?
A20 feels like it carries more fuel, and the engines feel stronger. Opinions/facts?
The boston flies very similar to the A20, I didn't notice much difference but the 303s are balls.
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Debrody,
Unless you have something meaningful to contribute, go back into hiding or dust off that hideously painted 109 of yours.
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1: You think i will do anything for your word? Wake up earlyer, kid. Maybe a godly parental slap might heal you out from the napoleon-complex.
2: 109 is not my plane.
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See Rule #4
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Debrody is still banned folks. I forgot.
If he was banned from the game, he would also be banned from the forums and not able to post. It's evident you're not very bright.
ack-ack
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If he was banned from the game, he would also be banned from the forums and not able to post. It's evident you're not very bright.
ack-ack
How come? the forum and game accounts are two different things.
To the point of the argument:
Is the A-20 modeling exaggerated? very possibly so, but in a slow turning contest there is no reason to think (just based on dry numbers) that the real P-51 will turn tighter than the real A-20. In the game, even an empty B-26 can frustrate a P51 in a slow circle fight. The stang is simply a high wingloaded speed monster and not meant for just a fight.
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How come? the forum and game accounts are two different things.
While they maybe two seperate accounts, HiTech has always done a complete 100% across the board ban (game and forums) when someone has been banned from the game. In fact, I don't know of any MMO games in which is has a policy of not banning a player from the community forums after the player has been banned from the game.
ack-ack
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How come? the forum and game accounts are two different things.
To the point of the argument:
Is the A-20 modeling exaggerated? very possibly so, but in a slow turning contest there is no reason to think (just based on dry numbers) that the real P-51 will turn tighter than the real A-20. In the game, even an empty B-26 can frustrate a P51 in a slow circle fight. The stang is simply a high wingloaded speed monster and not meant for just a fight.
Well done, give the horse under the delirious one.
Let Skuzzy decide if i am banned from the game or not. If someone, he might know.
:rolleyes:
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Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
I'm still waiting to see your fabulous flight data for the A-20 and P-51. Otherwise you have zero factual data to even make a claim, or to be a stand in for Tom Cruise.
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg)
Hi guys!
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I think I'd like to meet this Grayclif guy's P-51D. It sounds like free perkies to me.
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Popcorn anyone??? It's free!!!!!! I also have lazy boy recliners for the show
And graycliff oh graycliff :ahand
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Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Ive known Cobie for years,not only is he a heck of a good stick he;s a great guy and really never takes the game personally.
One time I picked him and blew the tail off his A20,I pm#d him and said that was a cheap shot,all he said back was,it#s all fun,it#s just a game. He could have been upset but nah,he just came back and shot me down... :rofl No way an A20 can catch and out turn a Mossie,no way!!! :furious :furious
Anyone who is silly enough to try and turn fight or rope Cobia in that blasted A20 is bound to fail,he;s just that good!
:salute
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Some differences between Cobia and grayclif:
-Cobia fights like a lion. grayclif cant fight his way out from a wet paper bag.
-grayclif tryed to turn with an a20 once, instead of his usual girly runaway method, now he is crying on the BBS that Cobia is a hacker.
-I have never seen Cobia bragging about how awesome he is, especially not after his pony got completely owned by an a20.
-I have never seen Cobia trying to annoy people.
-I have never seen Cobia trying to belittle people.
-I have never seen Cobia being narcisstic. Nor being a complete retard. Nor lieing, trying to throw dirt on other players name.
-Cobia isnt jumping into other people's private fight in the DA, especially not after repeatedly being asked to stay away, then bragging on the BBS that he won.
Still have something to say? Come along, show it once more what youre made of.
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This thread made me smile.
All hail the Cobia!!!
:rofl
edit: theres too much good material to quote here but this must win the prize:
Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
um ... no. no you wont :)
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Dear HTC,
Please take a look at updating the handling characteristcs of the A-20.
Last night I was out-turned by an A-20 while flying a P-51D in a dogfight at 14k alt. We entered into a tight turn fight at this alt and within 2 complete circles, the A-20, piloted by "Cobia38", was able to turn inside my pony (even with my flaps deployed and WEP power) for the kill. Having known a pilot who flew real A-20's, being a pilot myself, and comparing the two real aircrafts qualities; this would not have been possible. Even under ideal conditions for the A-20 could not turn with such a nimble fighter. Especially in air that dense.
The A-20 pilot I know, said that the A-20 has a lot of climbing power, and turns fairly well if speeds were high, but that is about it. "It was dog in the air for the most part, handling much like an empty B-25. But if you we're going over 300 mph the Havoc would pull vertical with the best of 'em." "You put it thru the mill in dives and g-loading, it just couldn't turn worth a damn".
Either yet another hack has joined the ranks, or the A-20 needs a big big mod. Please fix.
Thank you.
Regards,
The Grayclif
Care full what you wish for, last thing your going to want is a A-20G with x4 20mm and x2 .50's banggin' up your six o'clock. And with the added .50 it may even come packing a dedicated gunner.
I don't know why everyone assumes the A-20G will become worse when it gets updated. Planes haven't been getting worse they have been getting better. ;)
Butcher, your picture says it all. :rock
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I don't film. Never have. You have to "unzip" files or some garbage and I don't know how to do that.
If by "unzip" you mean "just double click and it opens in the film viewer so you can watch how bad your attempt to BnZ HO went" then you definitely know how to do that.
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I, for one, harbor no expectations that the A-20G will be inferior after it is remodeled. :neener:
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Think he had his stall limiter on?
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Think he had his stall limiter on?
That's how he doesn't crash.
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Dear HTC,
Please remodel the A-20 with engine performance of the sbd and turn radius of a B-29 with one good engine. I know this is the right flight model for the A-20, just trust me.
With love as always,
WarYeast...I mean Graycliff!
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I don't film. Never have. You have to "unzip" files or some garbage and I don't know how to do that.
Please don't make a list of things you don't know how to do, it would be the largest book in the world.
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Please don't make a list of things you don't know how to do, it would be the largest book in the world.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
every villiage has their idiot :bolt:
And new sig!
Doesn't matter. In the end, I will mop the floor with this Cobia cat.
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The only place I went wrong was .....
Really? The only place? :bhead
You obviously don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of the plane you were flying relative your enemy's. You made the mistake of fighting the other guy's fight and that breaks a cardinal rule. What you *thought*-- was mistaken. Doubtful you've learned anything from the experience tho. It's not how you roll.
The A-20 isn't exactly new to the game and neither is the P-51 so I'm not getting the how it's a mystery to you. I've flown against a lot of A-20s and I've fought Cobia many times. I now treat all A-20s as if Cobia was flying them even when I know we're countrymen at the time. I find I come out on the right side of things vs A-20s a lot more because of it. Cobia knows what he's doing. He's learned the Havoc really well and is disciplined in its use. If I KNOW it's Cobia I'm fighting I know I'll have my hands full and I know I'm in for a fight. I salute the guy for flying a bird generally outside of its intended use and kicking some serious bedonkadonk with it. It's always a pleasure watching him do this at close range too. :rock
You can make the statement the A-20 shouldn't be able to outturn a Mustang slow. If the Havoc were full of fuel and bombs I'm sure it'd turn like the overloaded furniture van it is in that configuration. But once it dumps the bombs and is light on fuel, if somebody with a clue-- like Cobia--is flying it, brother you just better pay attention! It's fast and has mass and absorbs ammo like--well like a bomber. It can be a problem! How you might have thought it flew in RL is immaterial. What matters is how it flies here. If you think it needs tweaking then come up with some literature to back up your claims and send it in. Not like that hasn't happened before. Whining about it here is just gonna get you--well--you know. :D
Know your plane. Know your enemy's plane. You screwed up on both. Figure it out and turn the page.
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To paraphrase Sun Tzu:
Know yourself and know your enemy and you will win 1000 battles.
Know yourself and not your enemy and you will sometimes win and sometimes lose.
Know neither yourself nor your enemy and you will know defeat.
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sorry,couldent resist :devil
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/tie20.jpg.html)
but seriously Graycliff,you killed yourself when you decided to get sloppy. if you filmed it,watch it and you will see what I,m talking about :salute
[/quote :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl]
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Just up a 38G, and the A20 will be neutralized :) :aok :bolt:
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When I see an A20 I just assume it is cobia and refuse to turn with it no matter what I'm in. He has taught me too many painful lessons. Stay fast and on top of the A20. You got beat by a superior pilot. Oh, has that been said before? :bolt:
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Grayclif, I'd be more than happy to show you how Cobia out turned your P51. It isn't magic, a cheat, or anything else.
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Could it be Grey entered the turn fight at a higher speed than the a-20? If so he may have already been inside your radius Grey.
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I have come up against him many times he really is good in that thing. The BEST I'd say!
<Salute Cobia>
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Gray,
Let's paraphrase the opening of this thread:
"I was beaten and I shouldn't have been, the other guy's plane is probably better than it should be." (Overlooks the possibility of superior skill which makes you look like an arrogant :ahand)
"Also, I am a pilot and therefore I have instant credibility despite the fact I cannot prove said claim in this forum, nor have I brought forth ANY quantifiable data to support my claim other than the sum of exactly 2 turns and 1 whine. When inevitably questioned for said flaming, I shall react like a bona-fide prepubescent."
Did it occur to you that an aviation game such as this would have many pilots in the ranks? Did you do any homework whatsoever on the subject to save it from sheer subjectivity? The age on your profile is N/A and your little quote is "the grayclif has spoken." :rofl This kind of immature slop makes me doubt you are a pilot. (*Disclaimer* plenty of pilots are immature, but most hide it better) My (generous) best guess is that you're a sub 30 youngster with a big chip on the shoulder because you earned a big, bad private pilot's license and accrued the massive total of 200 total hours-that's how you come across. Cringe.
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You'll have
better luck talking sense to warbeast :old:
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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The A-20 has the climb rate of a city bus. Try thinking in terms other than the horizontal.
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-I have never seen Cobia bragging about how awesome he is, especially not after his pony got completely owned by an a20.
-I have never seen Cobia trying to annoy people.
-I have never seen Cobia trying to belittle people.
-I have never seen Cobia being narcisstic. Nor being a complete retard. Nor lieing, trying to throw dirt on other players name.
Still have something to say? Come along,
Totally untrue.
I was beating him one night in a very good one on one when we were inturrupted by friendlies. We had a friendly PM exchange afterward. I was posting some nice things about him in another forum after this.
We ran into one another again soon afterward and I think I won (but I'm not 100% sure). He immediately PM'd or 200'd some lame excuse and how I wasn't any good blah blah blah. He's hardly the great guy you think he is. He's just another whiner.
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I approach the A-20 as a double engined zero with six 50 cal guns. Always seemed like it was missing about 70% of its mass. Whether it is or not? who cares....that's just how I approach them.
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Totally untrue.
I was beating him one night in a very good one on one when we were inturrupted by friendlies. We had a friendly PM exchange afterward. I was posting some nice things about him in another forum after this.
We ran into one another again soon afterward and I think I won (but I'm not 100% sure). He immediately PM'd or 200'd some lame excuse and how I wasn't any good blah blah blah. He's hardly the great guy you think he is. He's just another whiner.
Good (or not), but i have only written my experience. Its in a complete opposition of what i have seen from grayclif.
And i would rather hear Cobia's lame exuses nonstop for a month than the other one's deliriously narcissistic BS.
;)
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He immediately PM'd or 200'd some lame excuse and how I wasn't any good blah blah blah. He's hardly the great guy you think he is. He's just another whiner.
We all have our good and bad days, Cobia is human after all despite what the rebels want you to believe.
/Go Tie fighter!
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There's definately something fishy there, last week I remember having serious trouble shaking his A20 off in vertical and I was in K4 with 300+mph startup speed.
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As soon as you said an A20 beat you I knew it would have been Cobia38 .. the guy is amazing in it. Asymetric thrust handled properly can do amazing things :P Whether he uses that though I have no idea !!!
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There's definately something fishy there, last week I remember having serious trouble shaking his A20 off in vertical and I was in K4 with 300+mph startup speed.
If he's got the E, going vertical was your mistake. Just like the P-38, the A-20 is excellent in the vertical.
ack-ack
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If he's got the E, going vertical was your mistake. Just like the P-38, the A-20 is excellent in the vertical.
ack-ack
Um.. the A20 should not handle 300+ speeds very good and I was in K4 of all things.
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Have to agree with Grayclif on this one 100%. A20 in turn fight with fighters,with no E goes form 7k to 11k straight up, rolls over to keep on fighting, does end up getting shot down....but 4k straight up? :confused:(did have film but puter crashed)
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Um.. the A20 should not handle 300+ speeds very good and I was in K4 of all things.
It handles quite well at 300mph IAS and it's energy retention in the vertical is quite good.
ack-ack
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Have to agree with Grayclif on this one 100%. A20 in turn fight with fighters,with no E goes form 7k to 11k straight up, rolls over to keep on fighting, does end up getting shot down....but 4k straight up? :confused:(did have film but puter crashed)
if my comp crapped the bed right as i was noticing odd things in a game... I'd say case solved.
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Cobia certainly has the reputation of a Cod in the A20 and I've been on the receiving end of his lessons. No chest thumping etc. Just good fights and I learned what NOT to do against his A20. If there is a question as to why he is so good, there is a simple solution: film every encounter with A20s and send them in to Hitech if it's cobia. Only thing about this is that he has been so good in that thing for so long I suspect some fillms have probably been sent in and he's still here.
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has anyone who thinks the A20 is a bit dodgy bothered to learn to fight in it? Its really hard work. In some ways its like learning the Jug, but alot more so. Everything can outclimb and outaccelerate you, so you cant fight the other guy's fight and have to use its strengths, be able to do the basics really well, and make no mistakes. And if the other guy knows what hes doing, you'll still lose.
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If you look at the specs .. The weight of the A20 is 300Ib lighter than a 38J with 600hp more per engine. Not as sleek therefore not as fast but buckets of power for the climb. So it's feasible :)
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I seem to recall a story in Saburo Sakai's biography about a Boston of some variant (I believe it was the A20) surprising Sakai and a couple of his wingmen when it's pilot saw Zeroes moving in for the kill and began turning into the fighters and engaged them in a turn fight. It was futile, but I believe Sakai stated he was amazed by the ability of the pilot and the aircraft.
Yep, got to be careful around that Cobia fella. Bring spare fruit of the looms when he's about.
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I recall a back and forth between an A-20, Cobia perhaps, fan and Mossie fans as to which was the better fighter. This was back before the Mossie's update. The A-20 fan insisted that the A-20 was the better fighter because the Mossie's speed and climb advantage wasn't much. After being put to the test the A-20 fan said that the Mossie's power and acceleration/climb advantage was better than he had thought it was. He got one brief shot on the Mossie that caused no damage and from that point until the end the Mossie controlled the fight. I think it was Cobia in the A-20G and Batfink in the Mossie, but I don't recall exactly.
If you are in a fighter, any fighter, don't play the A-20G's game and he doesn't have a massive E advantage at the start, you will win. It doesn't matter if it is Cobia or newb number guy. Cobia will make it last longer, but the end result is the same.
On the other hand, if you take liberties like the OP did, well, Cobia'll kill ya.
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all a20s are EZ pickings, but you have to "pick" them not fly with them. unless you are in a turn fighter.
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I seem to recall a story in Saburo Sakai's biography about a Boston of some variant (I believe it was the A20) surprising Sakai and a couple of his wingmen when it's pilot saw Zeroes moving in for the kill and began turning into the fighters and engaged them in a turn fight. It was futile, but I believe Sakai stated he was amazed by the ability of the pilot and the aircraft.
Yep, got to be careful around that Cobia fella. Bring spare fruit of the looms when he's about.
That was a Hudson.
- Oldman
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2 questions :
1. anyone knows now many G a A20 can turn with full bomb-load in AH/RL ?
2 at how many G can a gunner turret still pull around and track/kill stuff in AH/RL.
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I ripped my wings off at around 4 G's doing 300. No idea about the other topics
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That was a Hudson.
- Oldman
My mistake. But, they are very similar airframes on first glance. I briefly tried to find wing-loading numbers to compare to the A20 just now but didn't.
I did find a detailed account of that fight though at http://www.abc.net.au/austory/transcripts/s590505.htm
"That guy was a master! I mean, he just took his bomber and he flew it like a fighter! ...the guy was a tremendous pilot, a tremendous pilot, he knew exactly what he was doing..." -Saburo Sakai
and came to the conclusion, Cobia is Cowan reincarnated. :lol
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:aok :rofl
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I did find a detailed account of that fight though at http://www.abc.net.au/austory/transcripts/s590505.htm
"That guy was a master! I mean, he just took his bomber and he flew it like a fighter! ...the guy was a tremendous pilot, a tremendous pilot, he knew exactly what he was doing..." -Saburo Sakai
and came to the conclusion, Cobia is Cowan reincarnated. :lol
Wow, that is a great story.
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Dear HTC,
Please take a look at updating the handling characteristcs of the A-20.
Last night I was out-turned by an A-20 while flying a P-51D in a dogfight at 14k alt. We entered into a tight turn fight at this alt and within 2 complete circles, the A-20, piloted by "Cobia38", was able to turn inside my pony (even with my flaps deployed and WEP power) for the kill. Having known a pilot who flew real A-20's, being a pilot myself, and comparing the two real aircrafts qualities; this would not have been possible. Even under ideal conditions for the A-20 could not turn with such a nimble fighter. Especially in air that dense.
The A-20 pilot I know, said that the A-20 has a lot of climbing power, and turns fairly well if speeds were high, but that is about it. "It was dog in the air for the most part, handling much like an empty B-25. But if you we're going over 300 mph the Havoc would pull vertical with the best of 'em." "You put it thru the mill in dives and g-loading, it just couldn't turn worth a damn".
Either yet another hack has joined the ranks, or the A-20 needs a big big mod. Please fix.
Thank you.
Regards,
The Grayclif
Hail the Cobia
please take your seat..
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Never take an A-20 for granted. It can hold its own with more than a few fighters. I had a great flaps out 1v1 with Creton in his 109K4 last night. I had ripped off my rudder diving on a P-38. So, I had a disadvantage in that I could not use the rudder to speed up the roll rate, or side slip for a shot. Still, I was able to ping up the 109, before someone picked Creton (despite my asking over VOX to let us fight it out) after several minutes of maneuvering. The nature of the fight was furballing, so Creton and I never had another opportunity to try again.
If I'm reasonably close in energy, I'll tackle anything that comes along, with a reasonable expectation of winning.
The A-20 is a real hoot.
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Guys like Cobia are why this game is so much fun, but I have to laugh at anyone who would argue that the A20 was some kind of a legendary turn fighter. With Cobia, it is a legendary turn fighter in Aces High, but my guess is most pilots in WW2 would prefer to have any other fighter plane in a dog fight then an A20. I think that was the point of the original post.
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Guys like Cobia are why this game is so much fun, but I have to laugh at anyone who would argue that the A20 was some kind of a legendary turn fighter. With Cobia, it is a legendary turn fighter in Aces High, but my guess is most pilots in WW2 would prefer to have any other fighter plane in a dog fight then an A20. I think that was the point of the original post.
In real life if USAAF pilots flew the A-20 like it's flown in here, they'd be taken off the flight line and grounded.
ack-ack
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I dont think many of the R/L pilots have performed aerobatic moves during dogfights, just like tailwhips, hammerheads, etc, many other moves i dont even know. I belive the simple rolling scissors was rare enough.
The A-20 is not an impotent dogfighter. Still, if anyone has serious problems against them, whoever is flying them... well might be time for him to learn how to fly.
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if my comp crapped the bed right as i was noticing odd things in a game... I'd say case solved.
Learn to read.....said I had film, but puter crashed.....so I am saying I dont have film anymore :bhead
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I dont think many of the R/L pilots have performed aerobatic moves during dogfights, just like tailwhips, hammerheads, etc, many other moves i dont even know. I belive the simple rolling scissors was rare enough.
Exactly. EVERY plane in AH is flown far outside the normal operating parameters than historically was the reality. Your cartoon pilots endure more physical in an hour of play time than most RL pilots did in their career. If Cobia's A20 was flying outside of it's RL potential, most likely the OP's P51 was outside what any pilot in WW2 flew theirs at. How many pilots in RL ever used 4 or 5 notches of flaps in a dogfight? I doubt it ever happened.
but I have to laugh at anyone who would argue that the A20 was some kind of a legendary turn fighter.
I haven't noticed anyone suggest it was, only that it was capable of more its role necessitated.
With Cobia, it is a legendary turn fighter in Aces High, but my guess is most pilots in WW2 would prefer to have any other fighter plane in a dog fight then an A20. I think that was the point of the original post.
The original post asserted that the A20 was absolutely incapable of the turn performance it has in AH. I don't know that is true and I don't see any evidence that proves it is.
In real life if USAAF pilots flew the A-20 like it's flown in here, they'd be taken off the flight line and grounded.
ack-ack
That is not completely true unless you are referring to blatant repeated disregard for orders. Even then, if he did it and succeeded his superiors would have most likely gave him a transfer to a fighter unit, not grounded him.
The question was, was it possible.
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In real life if USAAF pilots flew the A-20 like it's flown in here, they'd be taken off the flight line and grounded.
ack-ack
Nah....this is like real life Ack :x
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I rarely see them but upping a yak9 right under them has given good results.
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Every one who is interested in the A-20 should read this piece (.PDF format).
http://legendsintheirowntime.com/A20/A20_draft_2.pdf (http://legendsintheirowntime.com/A20/A20_draft_2.pdf)
Note that for normal maneuvering, the A-20 was rated for +4g, -2g. However, the ultimate limit is a whopping +9g, and that's with standard design safety margins (typically no less than 2g). Of course, this assumes no ordnance on the wings.
Operational dive speed was rated at 120% of max level speed. For the A-20G, that was about 396 mph. Yes, it could be dived a bit faster without drama, but please remember that safety was top priority and the operational margins were well below what the aircraft could actually do. In game, I use 400 mph as my redline.
As to whether or not the A-20 was used in real life the way some use it the MA, the answer is not very often. However, pilot instructors would often demonstrate the A-20's maneuverability against fighters. P-40s were the most common adversary, and the P-40 jocks found the Havoc more than a handful.
Anyway, read the piece and realize that the A-20 was designed as a multi-role aircraft, and good maneuverability was designed in from the outset.
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Nice data, Widewing !
Im sure most agree shooting from a gunners position at more than 2 would render the defensive guns almost useless unless target is closer than 200 yards. In AH you get a bucket full at 4g at 800 yards out.
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I think you just found Cobia's birthday present.
As to whether or not the A-20 was used in real life the way some use it the MA, the answer is not very often. However, pilot instructors would often demonstrate the A-20's maneuverability against fighters. P-40s were the most common adversary, and the P-40 jocks found the Havoc more than a handful.
Just skimmed most of the pdf, didn't see this info there, but if it gave a P40 trouble, I'd say Htc has got it close enough. The thing that puts it's use in the realm of the absurd is flying it in F3 mode.
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Ack Ack, knowing your devotion to the P-38, and Guppy's as well, I thought I'd add this link too.....
Big file...
http://legendsintheirowntime.com/P38/P38_redo.pdf (http://legendsintheirowntime.com/P38/P38_redo.pdf)
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nice A20 info there WW, thanks :aok
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cool info bro.
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:joystick: :old:"I reject your reality and substitute my own" :airplane: :neener:
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Wide great post
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Graycliff I vote thee tool of the decade :aok
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Learn to read.....said I had film, but puter crashed.....so I am saying I dont have film anymore :bhead
How right you are! My terrible reading comprehension is to blame for my total lack of understanding regarding your misuse of the word "crash" in reference to technical systems. Silly me! Thank you very much! Say...If you would be willing to do me a kindness and teach me to read I would be forever indebted to you..sadly the only thing I am able to offer in return is to teach you to write.
( I hope you know I'm just bustin yer berries )
:neener:
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Dear HTC,
Please take a look at updating the handling characteristcs of the A-20.
Last night I was out-turned by an A-20 while flying a P-51D in a dogfight at 14k alt. We entered into a tight turn fight at this alt and within 2 complete circles, the A-20, piloted by "Cobia38", was able to turn inside my pony (even with my flaps deployed and WEP power) for the kill. Having known a pilot who flew real A-20's, being a pilot myself, and comparing the two real aircrafts qualities; this would not have been possible. Even under ideal conditions for the A-20 could not turn with such a nimble fighter. Especially in air that dense.
The A-20 pilot I know, said that the A-20 has a lot of climbing power, and turns fairly well if speeds were high, but that is about it. "It was dog in the air for the most part, handling much like an empty B-25. But if you we're going over 300 mph the Havoc would pull vertical with the best of 'em." "You put it thru the mill in dives and g-loading, it just couldn't turn worth a damn".
Either yet another hack has joined the ranks, or the A-20 needs a big big mod. Please fix.
Thank you.
Regards,
The Grayclif
Still waiting for you to post some charts of turn performance or some kind of data that supports your position.
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People in the game often think of "turning ability" to mean only turn radius near stall speeds (often with flaps out) and run into conflict with anecdotal reports of "turning ability" that can mean a lot of different things (like how fast you can roll into a turn or roll from one turn direction over into another turn direction, how well planes turn at some speed much faster than stall speed, how much effort is needed to get a max-performance turn, and so on).
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Don't you wish this game had an "arena view mode" where you could tell everyone interested to be in a tower in the DA. Then they would all "tune" to you and your opponent for your demonstration. Then watch your ACM demonstration and hear your VOX in real time like being in a giant 3D cinema. At the end, if each player had their film viewer running, they walked away with a film of what they were watching and hearing.
Be an interesting way to watch the rounds of a dueling ladder or be the fans to a squad duel. Insta-ride along view to external views to theater view.
Fan Mode
Someday...............
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Don't you wish this game had an "arena view mode" where you could tell everyone interested to be in a tower in the DA. Then they would all "tune" to you and your opponent for your demonstration. Then watch your ACM demonstration and hear your VOX in real time like being in a giant 3D cinema. At the end, if each player had their film viewer running, they walked away with a film of what they were watching and hearing.
Be an interesting way to watch the rounds of a dueling ladder or be the fans to a squad duel. Insta-ride along view to external views to theater view.
Fan Mode
Someday...............
I think that's actually a great idea. Having some sort of spectator mode would be cool! Or having a system where when you stop filming your sortie... you could have a button that allows you to upload it to a community film viewer. Then players could see recent action and rate clips.
I'd +1 spectator mode if it has not been wished for yet. :salute
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If it has a gun it can kill you, its... scratch that. Anything in this game can kill you. Trees, C-47s, D3A, P40c, Ground, etc.
If you think a plane is an easy kill, you have just increased your chances of a quick trip to the tower.
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If it has a gun it can kill you, its... scratch that. Anything in this game can kill you. Trees, C-47s, D3A, P40c, Ground, etc.
If you think a plane is an easy kill, you have just increased your chances of a quick trip to the tower.
Anything in this game can kill you, though chances of getting hit by powered turret from a plane turning / rolling at distance should be pretty slim, in AH you are likely to get hit if gunner knows what he is doing.
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"We all have weapons......anybody can blow anybody away"
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Don't you wish this game had an "arena view mode" where you could tell everyone interested to be in a tower in the DA. Then they would all "tune" to you and your opponent for your demonstration. Then watch your ACM demonstration and hear your VOX in real time like being in a giant 3D cinema. At the end, if each player had their film viewer running, they walked away with a film of what they were watching and hearing.
Be an interesting way to watch the rounds of a dueling ladder or be the fans to a squad duel. Insta-ride along view to external views to theater view.
Fan Mode
Someday...............
That is the case for KOTH. Is camera eye view mode disabled for the DA? I thought it was active. :salute
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That is the case for KOTH. Is camera eye view mode disabled for the DA? I thought it was active. :salute
AFAIK it is enabled.actually called godeye mode and you need to map a couple of commands but if I can do it anyone can! I've been known to "watch" the odd dual,funny the players involved rarely know I'm there,unless I give a check 6... :devil
Big brother is everywhere! You never know who's looking!!!
:salute
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Had great fun fighting Cobia and his A20 last night. He seems to get a little testy when dies, but all in all, it was a great palm sweating fight.
Nothing wrong with the A20... move along...
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Ran into Grayclif flying an A-20 the other day and let's just say he can't fly it like Cobia can.
ack-ack
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Ran into Grayclif flying an A-20 the other day and let's just say he can't fly it like Cobia can.
ack-ack
:rofl :rofl :rofl
:salute
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Ran into Grayclif flying an A-20 the other day and let's just say he can't fly it like Cobia can.
ack-ack
Maybe he doesnt have the cheatcodes?
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Had great fun fighting Cobia and his A20 last night,with the help of my wingman. He seems to get a little sarcastic when dies, but all in all, it was a great palm sweating fight.
Nothing wrong with the A20... move along...
fixed it for you meat, :neener:
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Last night, I was flying an A-20 in the base defense mode fighting off carrier planes. I had a couple of kills down in the weeds, and decided to grab some altitude for the next wave. I climbed to about 8k. I spotted an F4U at about 5k or 6k. He wisely kept his distance, while climbing.
I kept an eye on him, and eventually was able to slide in behind about 800 yards behind. The F4U attempted to extend. However, the range stayed steady at 800 yards. I fired a short burst at that distance and saw several hit sprites. This forced the Corsair pilot to maneuver. He went vertical. I didn't try to match that, instead, climbing at just 1k per minute. A low Niki jointed the pursuit, a little below me. The F4U came over the top, and I saw the icon change to F4U-4. "Okay", I thought to myself, "this is going to be a bit tougher." The F4U-4 held the advantage in the vertical, and I had to evade an attack. A few hits, but no damage other than the right flap being shot off. I decided to extend to build some speed. The F4U-4 nailed the Niki, which wasted its E trying to fight the much faster plane in the vertical. The F4U-4 rolls in behind, closing in a shallow dive.As he got within 1.2k, I began a lazy turn to the left. As the F4U-4 closed to less than 800 yards, I rolled level, pulled into the vertical and then rolled right. The F4U whistled on by, pulling into a steep climb. I had created my chance, and I followed him up. About 600 yards back, I pulled what I thought was enough lead and fired. Hit sprites concentrated at the trailing edge of the wing. Something flew off (probably a flap). It should have been enough... I hoped it would be enough... It wasn't. The F4U-4 was still flyable. My A-20 stalled and tumbled into a spin. I quickly stopped the spin, but the Corsair was on me and I had no time or airspeed to counter his attack. He shot off my wing.
Kappa got the kill. He earned it. I razzed him a little about it on 200... But it was a fun fight, and I was pleased that although I had ultimately lost, I had been able to wrestle that A-20 around well enough to have had an opportunity to win the fight.
Those of you who encounter an A-20 being flown aggressively, do not, for a second, take it lightly. There are some folks who can make that fat cousin of the P-38 dance like a star.
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My TBM and SBD will pwn all A20's :old:
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having flown the a20 lately I would consider it a prime candidate for attack mode only and no external view. it is the go to gv killer/base defender when FH down.
it is one of the older flight models as well. its performance is in such stark contrast to the b25 which is similar that it begs the question of which one flies more like a heavy attack aircraft.
my personal view is a flight model with the characteristics more similar to the b25 would be more accurate for the a20.
if thats not the case and the real a20 actually flew like a fighter with p51ish e retention and turn rate/radius on par with its purpose built p38 cousin... the thing needs to go into attack mode only with no external view.
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having flown the a20 lately I would consider it a prime candidate for attack mode only and no external view. it is the go to gv killer/base defender when FH down.
+1
However, with current mechanics this would mean it will need to roll out of the FH instead of the BH.
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having flown the a20 lately I would consider it a prime candidate for attack mode only and no external view. it is the go to gv killer/base defender when FH down.
it is one of the older flight models as well. its performance is in such stark contrast to the b25 which is similar that it begs the question of which one flies more like a heavy attack aircraft.
my personal view is a flight model with the characteristics more similar to the b25 would be more accurate for the a20.
if thats not the case and the real a20 actually flew like a fighter with p51ish e retention and turn rate/radius on par with its purpose built p38 cousin... the thing needs to go into attack mode only with no external view.
Several things here I disagree with.
1) The A-20 was designed to be agile... Pilots who flew it often stated that flew like a large fighter.
2) The A-20 is powered by the same engines as the B-25, but is much lighter. The A-20G comes in at just over 22,000 lb., and the B-25H weighs in just above 31,000 lb. The A-20 had 465 sq/ft of wing area. The B-25 had 610 sq/ft of wing. Thus, the combination of equal power, 30% less weight and significantly less drag results in a twin engine light bomber that greatly out-performs the B-25.
3) Its large mass and surplus power allow for very good E retention. When the Russians first received A-20s, they remarked that the plane was over-powered for a bomber and thus was surprisingly agile and fast. On low level missions, the fighter cover was very hard pressed to keep up.
One thing I agree with.
1) F3 overuse. F3 allows easier location of ground vehicles. One should not be able to shoot or bomb from the F3 position.
My idea of a fix...
1) Rather than eliminate F3 (the A-20 is more blind aft than the IL-2), I suggest limiting F3 view to the rear, and only the rear view of the gunner. Thus, it could be used like the rear view of many fighters.
What's missing from the A-20?
1) There's no armored glass or armor plate in front of the pilot. I've posted the images of the armor protection of the A-20 elsewhere. It was one of the best protected aircraft in the war.
2) The ventral .50 cal was never modeled, due to a lack of photos. We have the photos now, and it would be nice to have the gun modeled. Its weight is already modeled.
3) The A-20 was designed with an ultimate stress limit of +9g/-3g (excluding the safety margin designed in). We should not be pulling off wings at brief excursions to 7g.
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No reason to have F3 mode in the MA.
You can jump to any position in a buff formation as easily as you can press F3. The idea that it's required to make up for some deficiency in Buff formation S.A. is nonsense.
Ban F3 mode in the MA when in flight.
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No reason to have F3 mode in the MA.
You can jump to any position in a buff formation as easily as you can press F3. The idea that it's required to make up for some deficiency in Buff formation S.A. is nonsense.
Ban F3 mode in the MA when in flight.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Jumping to a gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around and so on is much more time consuming that hitting F3 and scanning around. Bob didn't wait for Charlie to stop looking around before he looked around for fighters, and that is what you are asking for.
I do think that some aircraft that currently have F3 enable ought not have it enabled.
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Sorry, but you're wrong. Jumping to a gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around and so on is much more time consuming that hitting F3 and scanning around. Bob didn't wait for Charlie to stop looking around before he looked around for fighters, and that is what you are asking for.
I do think that some aircraft that currently have F3 enable ought not have it enabled.
you don't have to jump to every gun. Top, tail, cock pit will let you see everything. Bob and charlie weren't as synchronizes as the single pilot with synched guns is in AH. If a 109 was diving on a bomber, the belly gunner wasn't tracking his path from above to below to be align to kill him as soon as he entered his view. In AH that's exactly what happens. the coordination between pilot and gunner is total Overkill in AH allowing for all kinds of Buff maneuvering to keep bandits in the kill Zone. That's why Buff pilots argue to keep it.
I've NEVER been snuck up on in a buff because of limited views from gunner positions. That's a myth. :salute
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Using Ki-67: Top, tail and nose.
Using B-17: top, tail, nose and ball.
Cockpits in most bombers offer terrible visibility.
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Using Ki-67: Top, tail and nose.
Using B-17: top, tail, nose and ball.
Cockpits in most bombers offer terrible visibility.
But you are are arguing for a view the bomber doesn't have...even if the whole crew was in it. Isn't that why it shouln't have F3?
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But you are are arguing for a view the bomber doesn't have...even if the whole crew was in it. Isn't that why it shouln't have F3?
Why do you think HTC incorporated F3 in the first place?
It isn't just about having a great view, it's about the extreme vulnerability of bombers in general. Spending two hours getting your bombers to a distant target, only to be shot down by a fighter you didn't see is not conducive to fun game play.
From what I can see, you very rarely fly bombers, right? So, with that in mind, you want every advantage you can get, without regard to your fellow players. At least, that's how I read it.
Flying fighters in tour 160, I shot down 43 bombers. I lost one aircraft due to a lucky spray and pray shot that resulted in a pilot wound. Most of the time, I don't even get hit. It's all about tactics. How to attack, what aircraft to be flying and picking the best opportunity and where to shoot the bomber (the fuselage from dead astern is the most unproductive, and dangerous).
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You tell `im W. :aok
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But you are are arguing for a view the bomber doesn't have...even if the whole crew was in it. Isn't that why it shouln't have F3?
Both of the bombers I mentioned have full spherical visibility, even if their guns can't all bear on all angles.
Well, the Ki-67 might have some very small blind spots directly below it as long as your not too far below it.
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(...) where to shoot the bomber (the fuselage from dead astern is the most unproductive, and dangerous).
... and yet the most popular ;)
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I lost a Mosquito Mk VI to a two ship formation of G4M1s at 20,000ft last night as I was trying to avoid attacking from the tail. He gave me a pilot wound with the BBs and I blacked out while making a pass, apparently ending up right behind him from the crunching noises as his 20mm sawed my wing off. It was good shooting on his part.
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I lost a Mosquito Mk VI to a two ship formation of G4M1s at 20,000ft last night as I was trying to avoid attacking from the tail. He gave me a pilot wound with the BBs and I blacked out while making a pass, apparently ending up right behind him from the crunching noises as his 20mm sawed my wing off. It was good shooting on his part.
G4M1s are always underestimated I find. or you can ask the 3 163s and a Spit 8 that died to my buffs in 1 sortie :devil. Most see a easy target right up until they are in the tower.
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I fly bombers a fair amount, especially in scenarios. I almost never use the external view. It's not much hindrance to jump around and look around from the gun positions. True, external gives you a bit better view, but I like the more-realistic views from the gun positions better. I also tend to fly my plane from the pilot position, not gunner position, when adjusting courses in formation with others, again because it is more realistic to me, and so I like it better. I don't think I'd argue for precluding others from using less-realistic ways, though, as long as it's not a replacement for the way I prefer.
For attacking bombers, there are people who are much, much better at it than I am. For me, attacking B-17's, B-24's, B-26's, or even Lancs is never a low-risk proposition.
For being attacked in bombers, there are certainly some folks who could shoot down all my bombers without me getting them, but most of the time, I'll kill or disable at least one attacker before I'm down unless I'm in something like B-25C's.
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It isn't just about having a great view, it's about the extreme vulnerability of bombers in general. Spending two hours getting your bombers to a distant target, only to be shot down by a fighter you didn't see is not conducive to fun game play.
From what I can see, you very rarely fly bombers, right? So, with that in mind, you want every advantage you can get, without regard to your fellow players. At least, that's how I read it.
Your claimed success against bombers is admireable. I don't know who you are killing in those bombers but it may not have been 999000, or some of the other of the games better bomber gunners. I think being a good gunner and having F3 are not the same thing. I'm saying that F3 never belongs in the game, because very time it's examined it doesn't pass the smell test. So now IL2s are "fighters" because that's the only way we can fix F3 mode in IL2s. Now it's F3 mode in A20, and B-25...etc... F3 mode in buffs is unnecessary. I've flown enough to know you can look around from the gun positions. F3 isn't neccessary for buffs.
My point is that F3 is a feature that creates more abuse, than it solves problems. Just get rid of it. :salute
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Cobia around always insures a good fight...futile for him.....although I give him huge Kudos for fighting my KI with his big arse target of an A20....he does fly that thing excellently.....and always makes me work to kill him..... but if you have half a brain and understand even simple ACM......A20 just does not have the responsiveness of an actual fighter.....
simple truth is...greycliff.....thinks he is great...when in reality he is a very poor fighter...actually he is not a fighter at all...cobia on the other hand is a fighter.
the A20 did not "out turn" him............ he was out flown....... by a bomber....... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
man I would hang my stick up if I suked that bad.
greycliff reread what Debrody said.......I second everything :aok
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Your claimed success against bombers is admireable. I don't know who you are killing in those bombers but it may not have been 999000, or some of the other of the games better bomber gunners. I think being a good gunner and having F3 are not the same thing. I'm saying that F3 never belongs in the game, because very time it's examined it doesn't pass the smell test. So now IL2s are "fighters" because that's the only way we can fix F3 mode in IL2s. Now it's F3 mode in A20, and B-25...etc... F3 mode in buffs is unnecessary. I've flown enough to know you can look around from the gun positions. F3 isn't neccessary for buffs.
My point is that F3 is a feature that creates more abuse, than it solves problems. Just get rid of it. :salute
I disagree, and unfortunately for you, most players and HTC do as well. Learn to deal with it.
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F3 view makes sense in LEVEL bombers for two reasons:
1. They must spend a significant amount of time out of the cockpit - be that in F6 view calibrating and fine-adjusting the flight path, or in a gunner's seat tracking a fighter that is waiting for his chance to swoop in. F3 allows them to quickly track the aerial threats around them and get back to F6, pilot seat, or a particular gunner. F3 helps them to do the job done by at least 3 different people in a real bomber. Planes like A20, IL2, SBD etc. do not use a bomb sight and do not (really) rely on a gunner for defense - they rely on maneuverability which is done from the cockpit. Yes they had a second crew member but so did the 110 and the Mossie and I see no justification for F3 view in their case - nor there is one for A20 and IL2.
2. Level bomber tend to be heavy, slow and take a long time to climb and cruise to their targets. During 90% of this time there is nothing to do except talking smack on channel 200 and admiring the beauty of your plane from F3 view. A20 does not climb high is faster than a few fighters and its typical mission profile does not take it more than 1 sector away. I bet that in a significant % of its sorties it never loses sight of its takeoff base. There is less need of entertaining yourself in F3 view.
I am sure that HTC could master their great coding talent and allow an additional flag added to planes of the bomber category that enables/disables F3 view per plane. This way IL2, A20, SBD, Stuka et al. could roll out of the BH and still have F3 disabled.
The rule of thumb should be: no level bombsight = no F3 view.
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F3 view makes sense in LEVEL bombers for two reasons:
1. They must spend a significant amount of time out of the cockpit - be that in F6 view calibrating and fine-adjusting the flight path, or in a gunner's seat tracking a fighter that is waiting for his chance to swoop in. F3 allows them to quickly track the aerial threats around them and get back to F6, pilot seat, or a particular gunner. F3 helps them to do the job done by at least 3 different people in a real bomber. Planes like A20, IL2, SBD etc. do not use a bomb sight and do not (really) rely on a gunner for defense - they rely on maneuverability which is done from the cockpit. Yes they had a second crew member but so did the 110 and the Mossie and I see no justification for F3 view in their case - nor there is one for A20 and IL2.
2. Level bomber tend to be heavy, slow and take a long time to climb and cruise to their targets. During 90% of this time there is nothing to do except talking smack on channel 200 and admiring the beauty of your plane from F3 view. A20 does not climb high is faster than a few fighters and its typical mission profile does not take it more than 1 sector away. I bet that in a significant % of its sorties it never loses sight of its takeoff base. There is less need of entertaining yourself in F3 view.
I am sure that HTC could master their great coding talent and allow an additional flag added to planes of the bomber category that enables/disables F3 view per plane. This way IL2, A20, SBD, Stuka et al. could roll out of the BH and still have F3 disabled.
The rule of thumb should be: no level bombsight = no F3 view.
I disagree with your rule of thumb... The A-20 is absolutely blind over 140° to its rear. I'd agree with a rear view defaulting to the gunner's view, but no rear vision would only cause many to abandon its use. Also, the B-25s can be configured without a bomb sight, should they be without F3 also? Then again, the Boston carries four 500 lb bombs, has a bomb sight and is as effective in killing GVs as an A-20G. by your measure, it would retain F3. So, I'd say your rule of thumb needs a few more fingers.
If it were up to me, I'd restore F3 in the IL-2. A handful of incompetent whiners were generally responsible for that being porked. My opinion is that if one can't defeat an IL-2 air to air, than the level of suckage exceeds Dyson standards.
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I disagree, and unfortunately for you, most players and HTC do as well. Learn to deal with it.
It's a discussion board. I'm discussing. Not having any trouble living with F3 mode.
Things change.