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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: trymee on October 12, 2013, 07:04:22 PM

Title: CV ACK!!!
Post by: trymee on October 12, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Seriously????? @ 20000ft above 209 my base and  Im getting slammed by ack from enemy cv that's literally 5 miles off shore,,,, that's just ridiculous,,,, shot me down, not just damage, I was obliterated,,, never in any other sims do you get that many accurate ack hits at that height, from a cv that far away. If that's the norm,,,, I will stay away from the mains and only fly with my squad if they fly the scenarios..... Rant over,,,,,,
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 12, 2013, 07:09:22 PM
If losing a plane every now and then by CV ack is sufficient to drive you away from the main...


... your frustration tolerance is even less than mine, which I always thought being almost impossible  :old:
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: trymee on October 12, 2013, 07:20:01 PM
I was high fighting 2 f6fs and an f4u, staying high above all 3,,,,, I had already got damaged from the ack b4 the encounter with them, but as soon as I start engaging them the ack from cv 5 miles away lit me up hitting me like 5 times. oil all over widscreen and dead engine instantly,,,, that's just bs! No ill will towards the 3 fighters, not their fault or doing. But seriously it needs toned down if that's the norm. :bhead
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: caldera on October 12, 2013, 07:47:02 PM
The best course of action to avoid CV ack is to fly level bombers straight at it.  :)
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Tinkles on October 12, 2013, 07:49:22 PM
I was high fighting 2 f6fs and an f4u, staying high above all 3,,,,, I had already got damaged from the ack b4 the encounter with them, but as soon as I start engaging them the ack from cv 5 miles away lit me up hitting me like 5 times. oil all over widscreen and dead engine instantly,,,, that's just bs! No ill will towards the 3 fighters, not their fault or doing. But seriously it needs toned down if that's the norm. :bhead

Actually, I believe it already HAS been toned down from what it was. Not only that, there is considerably less puffy than what there normally would be realistically (if I am not mistaken.)

I understand your frustration, most of us have been there at one point or another.   The puffy only starts targeting you if you are over 3,000 ft when you are within it's range.


The best course of action to avoid CV ack is to fly level bombers straight at it.  :)

Unless I'm in the 5in, then you better just stay away entirely :)

Tinkles
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Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: dedalos on October 12, 2013, 07:50:42 PM
Get in a buff. It does nothing to them lol
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: 715 on October 12, 2013, 08:24:59 PM
I'm always amazed when people complain about being shot down by CV auto puffy ack.  I've been on AH since version 1.0 and I have only been shot down by CV ack once, and that was my own CV.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Tinkles on October 12, 2013, 09:34:50 PM
I'm always amazed when people complain about being shot down by CV auto puffy ack.  I've been on AH since version 1.0 and I have only been shot down by CV ack once, and that was my own CV.

About 3 times for me.     :lol
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: ReVo on October 12, 2013, 09:36:51 PM
About 3 times for me.     :lol

That's only because you're always IN the guns.  :D
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Crash Orange on October 13, 2013, 02:18:27 AM
What's really obnoxious is, as in the OP's complaint, when the CV gets close enough to an enemy base that the puffy ack is over the defenders' field or town. That's just silly. The CV plotting routine should reject any course plot that comes within 6 miles or so of an enemy field or town.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Volron on October 13, 2013, 05:01:43 AM
What's really obnoxious is, as in the OP's complaint, when the CV gets close enough to an enemy base that the puffy ack is over the defenders' field or town. That's just silly. The CV plotting routine should reject any course plot that comes within 6 miles or so of an enemy field or town.

I don't think a cv should come any closer than dar ring.  And even I find THAT too close.  But until we get invasion type task forces or unless they recode the CV's to allow spawning of LVT's from so far out, it's just not possible.  That part of the complaint I can understand.



Now the complaint about being shot down for flying in ack is a different issue.  If you fly in the ack, expect to get greased.  If you don't want it to happen, stay out of it.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Latrobe on October 13, 2013, 05:10:57 AM
I get completely annihilated by puffy ack the very second I pop over 3K every single time.  :(

Why am I not allowed to climb to the bad guys circling our base at 5K? It gets pretty bad when the attacking team bring the cv so close to the shoreline that it becomes an ack battle. The defending team circles over their field and town ack because they can't go any further without cv ack destroying them, and the attacking team circles their cv ack because they don't want to go near the airfield and town ack.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: save on October 13, 2013, 06:31:13 AM
My frustration peak when you are flying :

1 At 7k flying from a off-front field to defend the field you will have on the other side of that mountain.
2 have no vis of the carrier, behind that same mountain
3 blow up in the first barrage from that CV.

To me its kinda .... strange....
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: trymee on October 13, 2013, 07:38:18 AM
I don't think a cv should come any closer than dar ring.  And even I find THAT too close.  But until we get invasion type task forces or unless they recode the CV's to allow spawning of LVT's from so far out, it's just not possible.  That part of the complaint I can understand.



Now the complaint about being shot down for flying in ack is a different issue.  If you fly in the ack, expect to get greased.  If you don't want it to happen, stay out of it.
I wasn't flying in ack myself, I was defending a field " 209" I was 20000ft, cv was 5 miles offshore, Im directly above my base, so technically that ship was atleast 6 to 7 miles from me and hitting me like it was a mile away :bhead
I get completely annihilated by puffy ack the very second I pop over 3K every single time.  :(

Why am I not allowed to climb to the bad guys circling our base at 5K? It gets pretty bad when the attacking team bring the cv so close to the shoreline that it becomes an ack battle. The defending team circles over their field and town ack because they can't go any further without cv ack destroying them, and the attacking team circles their cv ack because they don't want to go near the airfield and town ack.
exactly and that's exactly what this attacking force did
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: mthrockmor on October 13, 2013, 07:45:13 AM
CV acid is better but still over modeled.

Boo
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Volron on October 13, 2013, 10:13:46 AM
I wasn't flying in ack myself, I was defending a field " 209" I was 20000ft, cv was 5 miles offshore, Im directly above my base, so technically that ship was atleast 6 to 7 miles from me and hitting me like it was a mile away :bhead exactly and that's exactly what this attacking force did

Yeah.  I am a bit curious to whether or not TG ack went that high. :headscratch:

But wait until you have it happen...when they CV is on the OTHER side of a VERY BIG MOUNTAIN. :bhead
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 13, 2013, 11:00:25 AM
Yeah.  I am a bit curious to whether or not TG ack went that high. :headscratch:


On the 5"/38 caliber gun: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%22/38_caliber_gun)

Quote
Ballistics
    Maximum horizontal range, with a 55 pound projectile, is 18,000 yards (16 km).[5] In the antiaircraft role, it had a ceiling of 37,200 feet (11,300 m) at 85 degrees elevation
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: GhostCDB on October 13, 2013, 11:06:04 AM
I am an ack sponge, just fly near me. I attract all the ack.  :old:
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: JOACH1M on October 13, 2013, 11:31:15 AM
CV acid is better but still over modeled.

Boo
really I always thought that the cv acid didn't do much for me.... I like the acid the gv guys have.  :neener: :old: :D
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: SPKmes on October 13, 2013, 01:15:07 PM
since the change I try and stay as close to enemy cons as possible..this alleviates the ack problem...I still die ...but not by puffy
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: No9Squadron on October 13, 2013, 02:18:07 PM
I generally like CVack, because it really varies according to who is chucking it at you.

Also there's a big difference between coming from a CV's 6 o clock and a CV's 4 o clock to bomb it.

All I can say is don't fly straight.

Auto-ack at strats is lethal at 30k to B29s, more than at 25k perhaps, just something I noticed. The length of time spent in the target area seems to make a difference to getting hit or not. 1 or 2 passes you should survive, but 3 or 4 I'll usually lose a plane or engine.

Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Canspec on October 13, 2013, 02:56:48 PM
......"required nearly 1000 rounds of ammunition expenditure per aircraft kill"
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Tinkles on October 13, 2013, 04:13:55 PM
......"required nearly 1000 rounds of ammunition expenditure per aircraft kill" in real life

Fixed it for ya  :)

Currently, I can't think of any way for HTC to 'fix' this. If they lower the damage then "It isn't realistic", if they take away even MORE of the "puff" then we will get complaints on that too.. for the few who haven't been killed or haven't experienced the "puff".

I think of it sort of as a shotgun effect. The thing that is annoying though, it is the SYSTEM and the system has to have a 'lock on' feature to work.

Something that IS interesting for me though.  How can the CV shoot the puffy ack when all of the guns (40mms, 5in 8in) on all the ships, are down?

Wouldn't mind seeing the ability to disable 'auto puffy ack' by hitting certain areas of the fleet. Like the main cruiser or CV.

Just a thought.

Tinkles

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Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: palef on October 13, 2013, 06:58:22 PM
You sure 999000 didn't sneak up behind you?
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: John Galt on October 13, 2013, 10:45:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypLuXx6SKgU

Watch that video and be greatful you dont have that to contend with.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: save on October 14, 2013, 05:56:54 AM
One way would be to force CV to stay out on the sea, as they did RL.

To be hit when you flying behind a mountain is plain wrong. you should not be seen on radar nor tracked by ack
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: uptown on October 14, 2013, 06:40:35 AM
When enemy CV is afoot ya gotta get ur low ride on brotha (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/smiley-dance004.gif) (http://s279.photobucket.com/user/TheAmish/media/smiley-dance004.gif.html)
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Scherf on October 14, 2013, 06:44:59 AM
The best course of action to avoid CV ack is to fly level bombers straight at it.  :)

qft
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Greebo on October 14, 2013, 07:23:08 AM
The problem with preventing CVs from coming close to fields is that on some MA maps it would prevent CVs from negotiating narrow straits which have a field on the coast.

Personally I'd like to see auto ack made a bit more intelligent. At longer ranges it should only target planes that are on an inbound course for over X seconds with a closure rate of over X mph. Those planes in range with the highest closing speed get targeted as a priority. At short range it can be left as it is now.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: FLOOB on October 14, 2013, 07:46:02 PM
1. Fly in ack range.

2. Take damage from ack.

3. Whine about it on the forum.

4. Repeat.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Aspen on October 14, 2013, 08:23:56 PM
Odd that no one complains when ack pops the brewster that was on their six or takes out the B26 formation that was lined up on the friendly cv?   :D
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 14, 2013, 08:25:29 PM
Odd that no one complains when ack pops the brewster that was on their six or takes out the B26 formation that was lined up on the friendly cv?   :D

I have yet to see puffy ack taking out a formation of bombers after all these years.
Human 5" gunners, yes, but never auto puffy.

;)
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: 715 on October 15, 2013, 01:35:39 AM
Odd that no one complains when ack pops the brewster that was on their six or takes out the B26 formation that was lined up on the friendly cv?   :D

That's because it never happens.  I've done the tests.  The CV auto puffy has a 10% chance of taking out one of the three buffs in a formation before they drop on the CV and a zero percent chance of taking out all three before they sink the CV.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Aspen on October 15, 2013, 01:38:03 AM
Ok, ok, the point being no one complains when ack saves their plane or boat.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Debrody on October 15, 2013, 02:58:54 AM
Let me tell you a story: it happened in late 2010, i was pretty much of a newb, dweeb and all kinds of simmilar stuff.

Some bishops were trying to take one of our bases (horde), so upped a jet, but by the time i got there, they captured the field. Someone wrote on country that there is a b24 set coming to our boat a sector away, at 16k, someone get him before he reaches his target. Was already at 12k, with a short zoom climb i quickly got to 18k, on the way to intercept the bombers. Got there just in time, right before the drop. One pass, one drone, another pass, another drone, last pass, main one got lighten up, weee! There comes my own puffy, as i pass away from that burning wreckage, i hear some puffy pops and some strange noise... the very first puffy pop fired on that burning bomber could light up my jet. Oh, poop. The CV i just saved, killed me.

LYNCH all the CVs  ;)
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 15, 2013, 07:07:44 AM
I do a lot of strat runs and I keep logs, so I am able to determine the true percentage of bombers I have lost to strat puffy ack:

(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/stratacklosses_zpsc60fb919.jpg)

Only once I lost two planes in a single mission to puffy ack, it was in the Arado.


This is of course not representative, as the number of missions for most planes but the Superfortress are too low for being so.
Also, the conditions are quite different for the different planes. Not only in altitude (depicted), but also speed and more importantly time spend in puffy - In Ar 234, Mossie or Ki-67 I always do single quick passes over the edge of the area only, while in the B-29 I often do 5-7 passes all across the strats, with loiter times over target up to 45 minutes.

But neverthenless it's some hard data.  :old:
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 15, 2013, 07:29:23 AM
If the terrain builing process was more accessible and not so incredibly time consuming, I would go and create a terrain where i could really test puffy effects on planes in a controlled environment  :old:
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: waystin2 on October 15, 2013, 09:02:37 AM
Believe me you Bishop are welcome to have Admiral Walleye. :aok
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Fulcrum on October 15, 2013, 09:27:45 AM
I'm always amazed when people complain about being shot down by CV auto puffy ack.  I've been on AH since version 1.0 and I have only been shot down by CV ack once, and that was my own CV.

Then you've never been around an enemy cv for any length of time.

That being said, while I've died due to puffy numerous times...it's not something that would drive me off the MAs.  It's something one lives with....like HOing, hording and ch200...tho' I admit that is a voluntary burden.  :D
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: uptown on October 15, 2013, 12:20:23 PM
Avoiding CV ack is all in the training. You can thank me later  :D http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=08c_1381852155
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Crash Orange on October 15, 2013, 01:02:16 PM
Avoiding CV ack is all in the training. You can thank me later  :D http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=08c_1381852155

Or would be, if HTC fleet ack followed anything remotely like the laws of physics, but it doesn't. In AH, the best way to avoid being hit by a task group's ack is to fly straight and level directly towards it with a tight V of bombers under 10k. Violently maneuvering a nimble fighter several miles away is sure to get you killed by the same ack.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: 715 on October 15, 2013, 01:24:35 PM
Lusche: your data shows a 2.7% loss rate for B-29s flying 5 to 7 passes through the strat puffy ack.  That implies the probability of the puffy taking out all three planes in a formation under those conditions is about 20 out of a million.  So the probability of the CV puffy saving the CV, i.e. taking out all three bombers of a formation before they make even 1/2 pass through the ack, approaches one in a million.  So unless a million people have attempted to sink the CV with high level bombers, it's unlikely that the AH CV puffy has ever saved the CV.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 15, 2013, 01:35:02 PM
You can't compare that this directly, as I pass through the puffy ack at the strats at 28k. Attacks on the CV's are flown much lower (rarely higher than 10-12k) and slower.

But as I stated before... I never ever have seen a whole formation been taken out by puffy alone in all these years. So I would basically agree with the "one in a million" statement, even when not completely agreeing with your computation  ;)
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: dedalos on October 15, 2013, 10:11:03 PM
Odd that no one complains when ack pops the brewster that was on their six or takes out the B26 formation that was lined up on the friendly cv?   :D

really?  Do you have a film that shows a formation of buffs being taken out by the auto-ack?  I think bigfoot films are more common lol
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: bj229r on October 16, 2013, 04:30:10 AM
The smaller the target, the faster it is, the HIGHER it is, the more likely it will be set on fire. Apparently the coading has hit a wall here
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: trymee on October 16, 2013, 06:26:44 AM
The smaller the target, the faster it is, the HIGHER it is, the more likely it will be set on fire. Apparently the coading has hit a wall here
Exactly!!
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Scca on October 16, 2013, 07:23:25 AM
Exactly!!
I will double that exactly. 

I have been sent to the tower first puff more than once. 
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: whiteman on October 16, 2013, 01:11:01 PM
if you maneuver it the ack box expands, meaning less chance of being hit. flying in a straight line at 500 mph or 200 mph makes you the same target. my deaths to cv ack come when i'm in my dive to drop on it, it's never been a huge factor even when fighting in it. When it is i just leave the area.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 16, 2013, 01:37:26 PM
One thing that suddenly came to my mind:

Has anybody ever lost a drone to the puffy ack? In all of my documented 51 losses to puffy (and many, many more cases of planes damaged by puffy) I never had a drone being visibly hit by auto puffy. Direct kills, fuel leaks & fires, oil hits or outright engine losses - all happend only & exclusively to my lead bomber.

Just a freak statistical aberration, or could there be a coding oversight resulting in 'auto ack proof' drones?

Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Tinkles on October 16, 2013, 01:59:46 PM
One thing that suddenly came to my mind:

Has anybody ever lost a drone to the puffy ack? In all of my documented 51 losses to puffy (and many, many more cases of planes damaged by puffy) I never had a drone being visibly hit by auto puffy. Direct kills, fuel leaks & fires, oil hits or outright engine losses - all happend only & exclusively to my lead bomber.

Just a freak statistical aberration, or could there be a coding oversight resulting in 'auto ack proof' drones?



No, I have never lost a drone to puffy.

Interesting......


 :headscratch:   :rolleyes:   :bhead
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: molybdenum on October 16, 2013, 06:13:37 PM
No, I have never lost a drone to puffy.

Interesting......


 :headscratch:   :rolleyes:   :bhead

I don't remember having lost a drone to puffy either.
And I'll add (anecdotal, I haven't kept statistics) evidence to lusche's Ki67 death data. I take various types of bombers to strats, and in my experience Ki67s seem to have the highest mortality rate to puffy ack (and the lowest mortality rate to enemy fighters, which is why I use them!). Ki67s can take a lot of damage before dying, so this doesn't seem logical.
Lusche, I don't like B29s but I do fly them on occasion, and puffy ack deals my lead plane an eventually lethal fuel tank leak roughly 15% of the time. Do you count planes you have to ditch due to fuel leaks in your "death by puffy ack" statistics, or only planes that go down with missing wings or in a blaze of glory?
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Lusche on October 16, 2013, 08:38:03 PM
Lusche, I don't like B29s but I do fly them on occasion, and puffy ack deals my lead plane an eventually lethal fuel tank leak roughly 15% of the time. Do you count planes you have to ditch due to fuel leaks in your "death by puffy ack" statistics, or only planes that go down with missing wings or in a blaze of glory?

That never happened to me, as I a) take always enough fuel to have a decent reserve and b) I drain the main fuel tank first, which has been invariably the only tank ever been hit in the B-29 (that's another  :headscratch: )


The drones being 'invisible' to puffy ack is indeed interesting. If it really turns out to be so, and would be changed, it would probably have quite an impact on bomber loss rates in CV as well as strat puffy ack...
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: Wiley on October 17, 2013, 10:57:08 AM
That never happened to me, as I a) take always enough fuel to have a decent reserve and b) I drain the main fuel tank first, which has been invariably the only tank ever been hit in the B-29 (that's another  :headscratch: )


The drones being 'invisible' to puffy ack is indeed interesting. If it really turns out to be so, and would be changed, it would probably have quite an impact on bomber loss rates in CV as well as strat puffy ack...

I can't say with certainty, it could've been 5" hitting them, but I'm fairly certain I've seen smoke coming off my drones after I've gone through puffy.  I am generally in B24s over a CV at around 10k.  The direct fire ack might be in play at that point as well?

Interesting thought and worth investigating IMO.

Wiley.
Title: Re: CV ACK!!
Post by: Max on October 17, 2013, 11:54:35 AM
Hitech...care to weigh in?
Title: Re: CV ACK!!!
Post by: lunatic1 on October 17, 2013, 12:10:04 PM
Actually, I believe it already HAS been toned down from what it was. Not only that, there is considerably less puffy than what there normally would be realistically (if I am not mistaken.)

I understand your frustration, most of us have been there at one point or another.   The puffy only starts targeting you if you are over 3,000 ft when you are within it's range.


Unless I'm in the 5in, then you better just stay away entirely :)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             has anybody ever watched wwII footage of cv's and escort's fighting off japaneese air attacks..the flack is so thick you can almost walk on it..the move midway-has some original wwII footage..check it out--so you are mistaken.also some people are real good in the 5in--i'm not one of them

Tinkles
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