Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gman on November 24, 2013, 01:31:00 AM
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China established Air Defense Identification Zone over East China Sea that overlaps Japan’s one
http://theaviationist.com/2013/11/24/china-new-adiz/
It should be pretty obvious that China is rearming at an incredible rate for a reason. China's actions in the last decade or so show that they are being more and more provocative with their defense posture in addition to other pretty overt actions and incidents. This latest one is outright brazen.
Setting an "air defense zone" over top of another potentially hostile nation's already existing zone, and saying "oh ya, so there, cross here and you have to obey our rules or be subject to force" is pretty crazy even for the Chinese. After years of moving in a calculated manner towards expansion of their powers and military, this one is I think one of the first really, really brazen pushes to see what kind of response they get.
I wonder what Japan will do next?
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This should get very interesting to say the least.
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Yes this is just what the world needs, another conflict. :rolleyes:
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Japan's stuck with a SDF, the Japs won't be able to do anything but protest.
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I believe after they have dealt with Japan the USA will be next :old:
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Wondering how both sides will react to this.
Will Japan fly into area without China's approval?
Will China shoot down A/C, or just warn?
All yet to be seen. A scary situation.
:cheers: Oz
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Better hurry and get those F-35s off the line quick. Japan's going to need them.
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Just another step in China's "conquest by inches" strategy. They have been slowly but inexorably taking over more and more of the Pacific for years. As long as there is no serious objection mounted and by that I mean outright force, there will be no backing down by their govt. in this regard. They know as long as they can continue to expand like this there is no reason to have a full out conflict as long as they can take what they want at a snail's pace. It is the opposite of the blitz, but no less effective. The UN is no threat so there is nothing to stop them so far.
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We should attack now!
The the best form of defense :old:
They have been planning this for years and I for one am not blind to their out right aggression :old:
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We should attack now!
Aren't you Chinese? :noid
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Better hurry and get those F-35s off the line quick. Japan's going to need them.
Why? There are F-22's in Japan that are far better aircraft...
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Aren't you Chinese? :noid
You know very well I am from Uganda :old:
The Chinese are goading us and need to taught a good sharp lesson !
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I agree with zack :old:
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You know very well I am from Uganda :old:
The Chinese are goading us and need to taught a good sharp lesson !
I agree. In fact I whole heartedly support anyone who believes the same to march their kid to a recruiters office to "get some". Most of all our allies, like Japan, who spend about 1/3rd of their GNP on their own security as we do. I think they should triple their defense spending and institute the draft on all their 18yo's.
Hoorah-san!
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If you lived in Japan you may actually feel that way Zack, all kidding aside.
It would be like China putting a grid overtop of the the waters over the ilse of Man near the UK or wherever you live right now, and say all commercial and military aircraft now have to report to them, file flight plans with them, and obey all their orders or face interception and force.
I think even the Queen may object to that in some form or another. Indeed!
Japan may have a "self defense" force only, but I know from my time there they still have a very martial culture. They are obsessed with military things, and the circles I was in (kendo) years ago had me bombarded with questions about all things do to with western military. Their politics are pretty weird, even by US standards, but history shows that Japan needs only a strike on the match to become a very scary monster, so I wouldn't be surprised either way - Japan laying down and taking this, or getting angry and doing something about it. Japan does have a pretty good air force, US trained and supported, as well as a lot of built in house/country technology in things such as radar and weapons systems. I'm sure some of the US fighter pilots here have worked with their Japanese counterparts and could comment more accurately, but things I've read doesn't suggest them to be awful or anything.
On the other hand now, China has fielded and is currently testing some pretty impressive new fighters, considering what they were flying only a decade ago. They have around 200 SU 27/30 variants, 140 in house copies of the SU27 with another 100 building, 200 of the very good J10's. The "Stealth" fighters will be here soon as well, the J31 and J20 both most likely, and that will change the balance quite a bit in the area in the skies. China also just publicly and successfully tested their first stealth weaponized drone this week, an interesting coincidence. There is also the new J16 fighter, in the SU class of strike fighters, and it'll be no slouch either. China is moving forward VERY fast, the J16 was pretty much announced only once it was already in full squadron service. It has an AESA radar and a very, very long range IR missile system, but looks like it'll be optimized for naval strike and long range patrol. From their deployments it looks like they will be used in naval and long range operations in the disputed area. They've only got 24 of them, but it's still a pretty impressive leap forward that they can build their own copies of Russian stuff that actually works pretty well now with all the nice stolen information they've gotten from the USA in the last ten years.
There have been a lot of interceptions in the last year by both sides, and by Taiwan and China as well. Like Maverick said, and I said as well earlier, China is taking the long road, as is their tradition and culture - they have been very patient in this expansion of both military capability and on the map as well, but this latest incident is IMO a real departure from this and a push to the limit to see what they can get away with. There have been many incidents with Chinese and Japanese ships in the recent months as well, mainly a bunch of warnings issued and close shaves. Time will tell if China has the ability to stage fighters out that far and support them there, I have no idea on their tanking, radar support, and ESM support capabilities in practice, just that they have the aircraft to do it. I'm sure they have been practicing this as well, again, a lot of good information in those US defense department computers that have been compromised by spies, at least according to the media. I know Mace was eluding a while back that China had slipped guys into the US Navy as enlisted men in order to learn and observe everything about CVN operations, and that China had actual copies of all the MANOPS for various things about operating on carriers. They seem to be learning very fast in that department with their first CVN, and are building more of these as well.
It'll be interesting to see how the Chinese Navy plays into this new "area" they are claiming. Like their air force, they've really ramped up their stuff in the last decade. I amazes me to think that back in the 90's, long after the cold war, China was flying Mig21's and had crappy tin cans for ships. Compare that to now. http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/ffg.htm is a great site for Chinese naval capability, and it's pretty scary stuff when you look at some of the numbers. Over 200 of those fast little stealthy boats with 8 long range high speed low alt cruise missiles. Even 50 of them would be 400 missiles for a CVN group to try and deal with.
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"Martial"? Lol they have avoided every fight since 1945 and spend a lousy 1% of their GNP on defense, "we spend about 5%", so exactly how are they "martial"?
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I said that specifically to compare their lack of military and spending on defense with their cultural interests. Every hobby shop there is filled with military stuff, airsoft toy guys were huge there, their video and board games were predominantly about military and fighting. In their culture having real firearms and committing violent acts is a major taboo still, yet they flock to toys and simulations of such things like geese. It's a paradox. My point was and is that because of this, don't assume Japan is a nation of polite little people with no capability for violence and war based solely on their standing military.
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Why? There are F-22's in Japan that are far better aircraft...
American F-22s yes.
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"Martial"? Lol they have avoided every fight since 1945 and spend a lousy 1% of their GNP on defense, "we spend about 5%", so exactly how are they "martial"?
We wrote that into their constitution. We're hardly in a place to complain about it.
Japan has considered changing that, but there is a lot of opposition and concern about international perception because of WWII.
That said, if China starts pushing on Japan itself none of that will matter. I can't say the Senkaku islands will do it, but if China pushes for Okinawa like they have hinted at I can't see Japan being passive about it.
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Bout time China steps up. What are huge nations for, if not for international posturing.
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Who are the biggest investors in China?
Not one American will answer that question
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We wrote that into their constitution. We're hardly in a place to complain about it.
Japan has considered changing that, but there is a lot of opposition and concern about international perception because of WWII.
That said, if China starts pushing on Japan itself none of that will matter. I can't say the Senkaku islands will do it, but if China pushes for Okinawa like they have hinted at I can't see Japan being passive about it.
The site of the last major battle of WWII, and IIRC, the first of their inhabited home islands to be captured by US forces? Not a chance in hell they'll take that lying down.
I will say that in a short-term conflict, I think the balance heavily favors Japan. While China may be getting there, Japan had already gotten there by 1904. And China quite obviously doesn't know just how strong it is (and unfortunately, neither does anyone else); shes flexing her muscles, trying to get a feel for her strength. But a side effect of that is that any military action will be slower, clumsier, because really it will be the first time for them as a modern military.
But if China decides she really wants that hunk of rock, she can just crush the Japanese with weight of numbers, overwhelm them strategically.
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she can just crush the Japanese with weight of numbers, overwhelm them strategically.
Defend that statement. You do realize that there is this large thing called the ocean separating the two nations, right? While everyone knows the Chinese have a massive, massive advantage in the numbers of soldiers under arms, the fact is actually getting them to where they need to fight is the problem. This is one of the primary reasons Taiwan is still Taiwan, that and the fact that the Chinese are moving slow on that front as well, but they've made no bones about stating that they consider it a "rogue" state that needs to be brought back into line.
The Chinese still lack a large amphibious capability, but they are working on that front as well. That leaves only invasion of disputed territory by air, and right now the balance of power is on the side of Japan and Taiwan in terms of the distances and equipment, and even mission involved. The only way China could hope to successfully put boots on the ground would be massive strikes versus Japanese air bases, air bases with a lot of Americans and American aircraft in addition to Japanese around. China would have to defeat the air forces, or at least get and maintain some level of air superiority prior to chancing putting a bunch of fat targets like paratroop filled cargo planes in the area. As I said, the naval operations would be even tougher for China, as they would have to get by the Japanese diesel/electric subs that would be sortied and put in place like little mobile mine fields right in the way of their troop ships, not to mention the air power and surface ships that would have to be contended with.
If there was a giant land bridge between China and the disputed islands, or even Taiwan or Japan itself, then yes, I would agree with Tank Ace that China could use its massive advantage in numbers, and growing parity in technology of its land forces in order to sweep anything aside that got in its way. Thankfully geography didn't cooperate with their grand ambitions. Honestly, if I was Russian I would be more concerned about the Chinese army than the Japanese need to be. Sharing a large common border with huge, huge vast areas that are great for mechanized forces must keep the Russian military planners and defense staff up at nights worrying. India is already saturated with people and eats through much of its own resources, while China sees Russia a large unexploited area ripe for the taking. There's just that little matter of the 30,000 nuclear warheads the Russians still have stopping them right now.
The world is a strange place, and the Pacific theater is going to be a very interesting area in the next couple of decades.
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China has more aircraft than Japan can effectively combat. Even the US would be hard pressed to stop a couple hundred fighters before they smashed up whatever they came to smash up.
Granted it would take a bit of work, logistically speaking, but they could get a fair sized horde airborne.
As to the rest, I'd bet on Russia in a scrap with China. Whatever else you say about them, the Russians have shown they're damn tough, and willing willing to adopt a scorched earth policy. Even if China were to invade, and say they had developed a fool proof missile shield, I'd bet that they end up bloodying their noses over what would become the most irradiated, inhospitable land on the face of the earth the instant the bulk of Russian forces can escape the blast radius of a bunch of hidden remote detonated nuclear warheads.
I wouldn't be overly surprised if the same thing were to happen should they somehow mound a land invasion of Japan.
But more than the Pacific Theater, I'm really looking for the second arms race between the US and China. I think the US has the advantage in that area, given that we're not actively trying to antagonize all of our neighbors/allies, and have a far more developed space program (space being the most logical place to put weapons).
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Hmm, if you think things can get childish on these boards, it's nothing compared to the nastiness in places like YouTube between all three of China, Korea and Japan. I mean, really, really petty, mean-spirited childishness.
The Japanese are supposed to be the grown-ups in all of this, but their current government is even more block-headed than is normally the case. I still don't see things kicking off in earnest though.
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Tank Ace, numbers are pretty even fighter wise, and that's not including the US fighters in Japan. Not to mention quality, 200 of Japan's fighters are very advanced versions of the F15, and nearly 100 of them the F2, similar to the F16 in capability. Even the 80 or so F4 Phantoms still have an excellent modern radar and an even better A2A missile than the Aim120, with Mach 5 speed and its own mini AESA radar seeker, and 120+range. That's nearly 400 very, very capable fighters supported by even better AWACS aircraft than what NATO typically uses.
Japan's AEW capability is excellent as well, and although they have a small tanker force, they are well practiced and trained in employing this asset. Also, it isn't just simple numbers, China will have to be able to actually GET the fighters to where they are needed and keep them there. Looking at the map, the Chinese will have to stage WAY out there if they wanted to actually come out and make trouble with their fighters. They would be at the edge of their fuel envelope with most of their types, and not be able to maneuver about the battle space at will, that's for certain. The J10 are pretty short range fighters, and without massive, massive tanker support, wouldn't be able to stage out that far, and even if they can, staying out there for long and doing anything is a big problem for them. Again, that large ocean thing in the way, This isn't Aces High where there are two enemy airfields within easy striking range, it's the real big world of the Pacific. It's this reason that China is getting into the carrier business, and quickly, as the distances in the region are obviously vast, and the only other option for projecting air power than CVN's is to actually take new territory with existing runways, or build your own. The world is out of free areas to build air bases that are up for the taking in the Pacific, which is really what this is all about in the first place, right.
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I have no idea on their tanking, radar support, and ESM support capabilities in practice, just that they have the aircraft to do it. I'm sure they have been practicing this as well, again, a lot of good information in those US defense department computers that have been compromised by spies, at least according to the media. I know Mace was eluding a while back that China had slipped guys into the US Navy as enlisted men in order to learn and observe everything about CVN operations, and that China had actual copies of all the MANOPS for various things about operating on carriers. They seem to be learning very fast in that department with their first CVN, and are building more of these as well.
It'll be interesting to see how the Chinese Navy plays into this new "area" they are claiming. and deal with.
Believe it or not China does field decent in the Tank and Radar support department. When the Gulf war happened the Chinese realized the Type 90 (which was mostly used by the Iraqi's) were blown to bacon bits, the Chinese really wanted to dig and upgrade its tanks. While its not going to stand up to an M1A1, I wouldn't consider it a knock out punch like the Iraqi tanks were in comparison. One thing China does have is mobility, recently due to the unrest over North Korea - my wife's family who visit china once told me how an entire armored division rolled past her enroute to the north korean border. It was only a drill, but fact they could pack up and move an armored division is far better then they were a few years ago.
Most of their Radar support comes from buying Russian crap and upgrading it, I know currently in service they have quite a few 3rd generation soviet anti aircraft missiles in its stock, very few are 4th generation that I know of (most are still prototypes).
Its really hard to say where china stands at this point - the battle harden iraqi veterans got smashed pretty hard by pure technology in the gulf war, Its tough to say how the chinese Armor/aircraft would play a role in an Asian conflict.
Against Japan? The Japanese have a better airforce - but would lack in every other department to the numbers china can put up, same with Taiwan and everyone else in the area.
I enjoy reading Defense weekly, one senior military analyst put the Chinese at a victory in nearly every scenario conflict in the entire asian theater. He felt if the Chinese push even after a few losses, they would win by arbitration, however if its a small tactical engagement - china would probably lose on an overall scale.
Given they are setting new boundaries, they probably feel confident they can expand and even if provoked are willing to defend themselves. This is bad news for the united states and Japan in my opinion, considering the new boundary - its almost easily identified as a "provoke" to the situation.
If anyone hasn't noticed, its only been in the past 20 years china has started getting aggressive in its foreign policy and expanding, considering how many new toys they have coming out of prototype stages, I would say its time to start worrying.
Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Taiwan need to get out of Nato and form its own "Screw china" group or they are going to end up being taken over because we all know NATO is simply going to send a strongly worded letter because nobody can afford a conflict right now especially nato.
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China has been stupid in sitting out recent UN chances to test their military strength... Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Every "western" power is quite tested, but China is untested because they keep sitting out. All they have to do is go along with the USA the next time there's a "Coalition of the Willing", and they can get the experience they need. Hopefully it will be a while before the next "event", but when the next event does occur, China would be well served to participate.
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China has been stupid in sitting out recent UN chances to test their military strength... Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Every "western" power is quite tested, but China is untested because they keep sitting out. All they have to do is go along with the USA the next time there's a "Coalition of the Willing", and they can get the experience they need. Hopefully it will be a while before the next "event", but when the next event does occur, China would be well served to participate.
Yes they've been stupid accumulating economic power and surpassing most rivals at it all the while the enemy is wasting mega loads of resources fighting battles overseas lol. They are very smart in staying out of wars so far, historically speaking the nations that have managed to do that have prospered economically. They can sell while war going countries blow their budget in spending.
Think about 60 dollar a piece Haliburton disposable dinner trays in Iraq. Even though Cheney and his buddies rip the most profit out of it (ripping off your nation in process), even those probably get shipped directly from China.
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Hmm, if you think things can get childish on these boards, it's nothing compared to the nastiness in places like YouTube between all three of China, Korea and Japan. I mean, really, really petty, mean-spirited childishness.
The Japanese are supposed to be the grown-ups in all of this, but their current government is even more block-headed than is normally the case. I still don't see things kicking off in earnest though.
They will at war in 2 years time :old:
Ripley a US investment company owns the chinese factory that makes those dinner trays :old:
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They will at war in 2 years time :old:
Ripley a US investment company owns the chinese factory that makes those dinner trays :old:
Sure, China reaps taxes, salaries, customs etc. from everything and grow their export balance. They're the winners on nation level. It makes no difference if Haliburton sucks your government dry, it's tax dollars conveniently sucked to private individuals.
Every dollar your country is spending waging war is dropping to the exporters bucket, figuratively speaking. Of course 80 cents of that dollar goes to Cheney and his buddies through overpricing but thats another story.
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So you dont benefit?
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It wasn't over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor, nor does this look to be over any time soon.
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It wasn't over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor, nor does this look to be over any time soon.
Germans of the rising sun. And then you nooked Berlin, which is why soviets built an anti-radiation wall.
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Time for another Pearl Harbor... Where's that CHICOM CV?
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My thoughts on the matter.
1 This is a Chance to show FACE(which is there pride)
2 They would be fools to try to take Japan. There is nothing there for them in the strategic sense of the word.
3 They depend to much on the western world to run there economy.
4 The chinese army as a whole is very effective when fighting by the book, but suck when it comes to commanders taking the charge and pressing a attack without first checking in the General.
5 This is just a act of them being the bully. They are acting big and tough, but they will be fools if they actually believe it. They feel like western society owes them.
6 As long as there economy is growing there is nothing to worry about, It is only when it stops growing that we need to start to worry. They will relieze they do not have a endless supply of money and will really become ugly.. I could see them attacking Russia before Japan. Russia offer far to many resource in Siberia for them to ignore. :rock
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My thoughts on the matter.
4 The chinese army as a whole is very effective when fighting by the book, but suck when it comes to commanders taking the charge and pressing a attack without first checking in the General.
5 This is just a act of them being the bully. They are acting big and tough, but they will be fools if they actually believe it. They feel like western society owes them.
Actually this is incorrect, Chinese Army doctrine allows its commanders to make decisions on the go, not requiring to go up the chain of command - far different then many nations which allow them to be a better in the combat role then one would think. The biggest problem they have is mobiltiy,
while they do have impressive new toys, they still lack basic tools like GPS in their fighting equipment. In the Gulf war what helped us was having FF's on everything, to avoid friendly fire and still we suffered some friendly fire accidents - something the Japanese have on just about every piece of equipment and the Chinese do not. What this means if a Chinese naval ship decides to move in on its own and its not identified it can be blown out the water on accident - which is most likely will happen and blame the Japanese.
Secondly, its not them being bullies - this has been going on for over 40 years now. Chinese Taipei, Taiwan, South Kroea, Japan have always shown they improved over 100% - the Philippines is coming along but not good as the rest. China is basically showing its hand in a growing economic and political sense as it hasn't done before.
Problem is 20 years ago China would have absolutely no chance in showing its hand like this, now with the economic strength and its military being upgraded - they are coming out to play with the rest of the world to show its power.
Either way it can be bad news for Asia - unfortunately I don't know what is going to stop the big red machine.
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Honestly, the only thing short of a war that will stop them, is if everyone (or at least the other major economic powers) stop trading with her. They don't supply anything that can't be found elsewhere, there's nothing standing in the way but greed.
Though I do feel like China is getting a bit big for its britches. They're getting there, certainly, but they're not there yet.
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"Martial"? Lol they have avoided every fight since 1945 and spend a lousy 1% of their GNP on defense, "we spend about 5%", so exactly how are they "martial"?
Japan has been hamstrung by their constitution that we imposed on them after the war that limits how much they can spend on their military and how their military can be used.
ack-ack
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Japan has been hamstrung by their constitution that we imposed on them after the war that limits how much they can spend on their military and how their military can be used.
ack-ack
Which could be changed with a flick of the pen for about 5 decades now. But why do that when you have other dummies who will spend the $$ to protect you?
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Which could be changed with a flick of the pen...
Not quite. The red tape required for a constitutional amendment in Japan is substantial. It requires at least a two-thirds majority in both houses of the Diet, and then a majority vote in a public referendum. No wonder their constitution has never been amended since its enactment in 1947.
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Not quite. The red tape required for a constitutional amendment in Japan is substantial. It requires at least a two-thirds majority in both houses of the Diet, and then a majority vote in a public referendum. No wonder their constitution has never been amended since its enactment in 1947.
They havnt amended it because the Yank tax payer has been paying to protect them. Remove that and i cant help but think their two houses, and their public, would find a way to see the light.
I cant help but laugh when I see citizens from other Democracies make comments on the internet about how they would like to see America taken down a notch or two in the Pacific. They really have no idea what they would be dealing with if there was a dominant China in Asia.
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European countries always have a lot to say about the USA :old:
A good majority of them would be using horse and carts if it were not for the colonials :old:
Churchill was awesome
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zack1234 wees sitting down
it is known :old:
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The Chinese and the Russians since their move to the free market have become two of the most resource and economically rich nations on the planet alongside the US. With all the money coming in they can afford to expand their military's. In a decade or so the USA will no longer be the dominant military force on the planet.
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zack1234 wees sitting down
it is known :old:
Its a outrage :old:
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They havnt amended it because the Yank tax payer has been paying to protect them. Remove that and i cant help but think their two houses, and their public, would find a way to see the light.
I cant help but laugh when I see citizens from other Democracies make comments on the internet about how they would like to see America taken down a notch or two in the Pacific. They really have no idea what they would be dealing with if there was a dominant China in Asia.
Unless I misread GScholz, he means they haven't been able to change their constitution at all, not just in respect to military spending and operations. The threshold is prohibitively high.
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They havnt amended it because the Yank tax payer has been paying to protect them. Remove that and i cant help but think their two houses, and their public, would find a way to see the light.
I cant help but laugh when I see citizens from other Democracies make comments on the internet about how they would like to see America taken down a notch or two in the Pacific. They really have no idea what they would be dealing with if there was a dominant China in Asia.
The US paying Japan? You do know that Japan pays almost 50% of the US costs for bases in Japan, correct? Also, I don't see any reports from Japan about them wishing to have the US taken down a notch or two in the Pacific. In fact, when I was in Japan a couple of years ago, it was quite the opposite.
ack-ack
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Unless I misread GScholz, he means they haven't been able to change their constitution at all, not just in respect to military spending and operations. The threshold is prohibitively high.
You did not misread me, and combined with political chaos being more or less the norm over there, it is highly unlikely they will ever manage to amend their constitution unless something really major happens.
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You did not misread me, and combined with political chaos being more or less the norm over there, it is highly unlikely they will ever manage to amend their constitution unless something really major happens.
Japan is starting to take steps to take their military out of the 'self-defense' area and more into the offensive doctrine. Another thing that has hamstrung the Japanese has been their neighbors, the countries in that area of the world are scared at the prospect of a militarized Japan.
ack-ack
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Well, that ^ is true, but there's a reason for that.
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Japan does exactly what the US tells it to do :)
If not they mention trade tarriffs :rofl:
And they poo their pants :)
Hold on, has Syria, North Korea and Iran invaded yet?
The US has made China what it is by investing in it.
So stop hand ringing and looking under the bed for commies and grow up :rofl
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Japan does exactly what the US tells it to do :)
No, not really.
If not they mention trade tarriffs :rofl:
And they poo their pants :)
You're an idiot. Nobody has mentioned tariffs in decades.
Hold on, has Syria, North Korea and Iran invaded yet?
The US has made China what it is by investing in it.
So stop hand ringing and looking under the bed for commies and grow up :rofl
None of that meaningless prattle has anything to do with what is going on. Grow up.
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Every two months you all jump about, if its not your guns or your insurance or China with its poo aircraft carrier its the Iranians or the Syrians :old:
So your telling me the US lent the Japanese trillions snd then let them do what they like.
Trade Tariffs,IMF and World Bank all the same, controlled by the US :old:
So the US won WWII so everyone could do what they want :rofl
I have reported you as well for calling me a idiot, its genetic :furious
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"U.S. Directly Challenges China’s Air Defense Zone
Pair of American B-52 Bombers Fly Over Disputed Island ......."
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-391980/
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"U.S. Directly Challenges China’s Air Defense Zone
Pair of American B-52 Bombers Fly Over Disputed Island ......."
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-391980/
I had to giggle at this when the BBC reported it.
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In other news...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25033155
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The US paying Japan? You do know that Japan pays almost 50% of the US costs for bases in Japan, correct? Also, I don't see any reports from Japan about them wishing to have the US taken down a notch or two in the Pacific. In fact, when I was in Japan a couple of years ago, it was quite the opposite.
ack-ack
When did I say "Citizens From Japan"?
And why should they only pay 50%? Its not OUR security at stake. They arent sending THEIR children to America to protect us!
Lol Even in their piddly foreign deployments they hid behind their constitution and only allowed their troops to be used for road building and stock clerking.
Im starting to really despise this "Worlds Policeman" thing. And in Asia the only Allies worth a damn are the Aussies.
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Back to the OP, it's getting more interesting now.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.2440703
China has sortied its brand new (refurbished anyway) CV with 3 escort warships and several support vessels to the area we're talking about. I guess I was right about staging Chinese/Japanese air force fighters easily, as China has gone with the naval option as well. We'll get to see at the very least how spooled up they are with modern CV air operations. A lot of defense sites and analysts around the world will be glued to the wires waiting to see how that works out for the Chinese. I bet they actually are able to do pretty well so far as getting aircraft airborne, and not so well at keeping their CVN deck covert (very important even for USN CV battle groups). Taiwan has the closest fighter bases to the disputed region too, and they certainly aren't on China's side in this. Kadena AFB and the closest Chinese AFB look pretty close to equidistant from the islands. The Chinese CVN certainly is no match for a USN CVN group, but it does signify a first for a country like China, getting into the naval air projection game, albeit with a slow non nuclear powered CV with only about 20 or 25 aircraft max, and those aircraft will be lightly loaded in order to get airborne in the first place. If Japan was on their own in this one, the Chinese CVN would be a huge piece on the board, since Japan doesn't have one at all. The new Chinese Frigs and Destroyers are pretty impressive on paper, this will be a good time to observe them and see how good they are at the escort gig. I wouldn't bet against the USN running some pretty intense exercises versus this group with their SSN's in the area. I'm very interested to see how good the Chinese ASW capability is now.
I wonder if Japan will respond now with some naval vessels, or if the USN is going to handle this one. The B52's that flew through the area yesterday was quite a show of force to China, pretty much telling them where they can stick their new air defense zone regs. Apparently China didn't get the message, or got it and doesn't care, and is sending a CVN battle group anyway. I think the USN is going to have to do some major redeployments to counter this move. This is when having F35B capable "mini cv's" like the America and other assault ship classes will really help the USN in areas like this. When they just don't have an extra CVN deck to put into a crisis like this, having 2 assault ships with 40 F35's will be a pretty major asset to use as a substitute. Just my opinion anyway.
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When did I say "Citizens From Japan"?
And why should they only pay 50%? Its not OUR security at stake. They arent sending THEIR children to America to protect us!
Lol Even in their piddly foreign deployments they hid behind their constitution and only allowed their troops to be used for road building and stock clerking.
Im starting to really despise this "Worlds Policeman" thing. And in Asia the only Allies worth a damn are the Aussies.
Australia is only part of Asia in the world cup.
semp
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/liaoning.jpg)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCqXru0eeBU&feature=player_detailpage#t=24
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Ever wondered why they never tell or give the top speed of cvn carriers? They always say unknown
or something like 35 knots + .....
Any of you who have been deployed or are on a cvn (nuclear powered carrier) been on it while it was going better than 90/95% power?
I've seen the nimitz throw up a rooster tail behind it when we were headed to lybia back in the mid 80's and again heading toward off the coast of Lebanon.... That tail was as high or higher than the flight deck, whic is 90+ feet above waterline..
Wonder if they ever fixed that bent prop shaft....
at top speed it damn near shake you out of the rack, lol...
when did Australia become part of Asia? :headscratch:
Push come to shove.... They all should remember what Yamamoto said
about awakening a sleeping giant.....
Interesting thread
TC
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But who's the giant this time?
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But who's the giant this time?
Going by the opening post... China might think they might be...
but the USA is still a sleeping giant.... If we are nudged enough, we will wake up and roar... We always do...
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Back when that quote was coined Japan had the greatest naval force in the Pacific, and the USA was the greatest industrial power. Japan had 71 million people, the USA had 132 million.
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I wonder if Japan will respond now with some naval vessels, or if the USN is going to handle this one. The B52's that flew through the area yesterday was quite a show of force to China, pretty much telling them where they can stick their new air defense zone regs. Apparently China didn't get the message, or got it and doesn't care, and is sending a CVN battle group anyway. I think the USN is going to have to do some major redeployments to counter this move. This is when having F35B capable "mini cv's" like the America and other assault ship classes will really help the USN in areas like this. When they just don't have an extra CVN deck to put into a crisis like this, having 2 assault ships with 40 F35's will be a pretty major asset to use as a substitute. Just my opinion anyway.
I will try to walk a fine line here without getting my reply deleted. It does not matter what weapons the US deploys. The US is considered these days a "paper tiger" and nobody takes it military threats seriously. Its not that the US does not have the might, it just lacks the will to be the worlds only super power. In a world with one superpower, any power vacuum the US creates by holding back or pulling back its forces is quickly filled with aspiring new (or old trying to make a comeback) players. The middle east has been delivered to Mr. Putin on a silver platter. Iran has placed itself as the leader of the Shiite world and soon a nuclear power. China feels secure enough to start pushing its neighbors for no risk other then prolonged and boring dialogs with US and EU leaders.
The US has the full right to act as it will, but it does mean a new world order.
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Oh for Gods sake, "The Asian sphere of influence". There? Is that better? And the Chinese certainly consider Australia to be in their "sphere" because not only are they a major source of their mineral needs but Australia sits astride the most important sea lane in the world. Most of all to Asia, and most of all to China.
The Chinese never wanted to be THE world power. Far to messy and no profit in it. What they want is to be the big player in their Asian sphere of influence and they know there will never be a better time to bluff cause we have a weakling running ....ah, cant get into politics.
So thats why their major military objective is sea denial to the USN in their sphere of influence. Every system they steal and/or make is designed for that in mind. Most of all naval. They would much rather bluff and bully then fight. Fighting carrys risks, most of all considering they have no experience with modern war. And if it comes to a fight they dont even really have to "win" anything. Sink a carrier or two and all the prestige goes to them regardless of their losses.
Were going to see more of this Chinese bullying. Maybe even a minor military action, a sorta dipping a toe into the water to see how cold it is.
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/1wl.gif)
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(http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz115/William_Duenskie/31603_569323663093502_956659879_n.jpg) (http://s819.photobucket.com/user/William_Duenskie/media/31603_569323663093502_956659879_n.jpg.html)
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Chinese internet dolts are as doltish as our internet dolts:
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/asia/china/AJ201311270095
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Chinese internet dolts are as doltish as our internet dolts:
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/asia/china/AJ201311270095
:lol :aok
Indeed, people are about all the same on all sides... just like in AH ;)
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I will try to walk a fine line here without getting my reply deleted. It does not matter what weapons the US deploys. The US is considered these days a "paper tiger" and nobody takes it military threats seriously. Its not that the US does not have the might, it just lacks the will to be the worlds only super power. In a world with one superpower, any power vacuum the US creates by holding back or pulling back its forces is quickly filled with aspiring new (or old trying to make a comeback) players. The middle east has been delivered to Mr. Putin on a silver platter. Iran has placed itself as the leader of the Shiite world and soon a nuclear power. China feels secure enough to start pushing its neighbors for no risk other then prolonged and boring dialogs with US and EU leaders.
The US has the full right to act as it will, but it does mean a new world order.
:rofl
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/world/asia/01japan.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/world/asia/01japan.html?pagewanted=all)
Things may not be getting any better here... :noid
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Going by the opening post... China might think they might be...
but the USA is still a sleeping giant.... If we are nudged enough, we will wake up and roar... We always do...
Do you think the Chinese will be burning the US flag in the streets?
I doubt it more like can we have more investment from the USA and here is a Ford we made for $500.. Have a nice day
I deal with a company in china who's lead time is shorter than a company in the UK, UK company charges £4.50 while the commies charge 32p per unit.
The commies are going to ruin the west with Capitalism :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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zach were you around when japan could make things for less than we did? then it was taiwan, now it's china, perhaps next year it will be india then who knows.
one thing is for sure we like to buy things that are cheap while complaining that all our jobs are going overseas.
semp
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Thats what i am saying :old:
The USA invested in these countries.
The USA investing in China :old:
And everyone is saying that China is getting to big for its boots.
Everyone fails to correlate that the 'West' is paying for Chinese exspansion."
America is a sleeping tiger gibberish, why would it go to war with a country its invested in?
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We would if China miscalculates and makes an impact on our dollars and cents. China may be cheap to buy things from, but you can't buy if you're not making money either.
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What are you saying their should be state intervention where you can invest your money?
I thought the free market was what America was about?
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Who are the biggest investors in China?
Not one American will answer that question
The European Union is the largest investor in China.....It is also Chinas largest trading partner
Not sure why you would think an American like myself wouldnt answer that question :headscratch:
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Meanwhile Canada sits back and waits to take over the world!
We have the means and the plan! It's quite simple,we're just going to bore you to death,once you're done poking fun at Rob Ford!!! :neener:
:salute
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Meanwhile Canada sits back and waits to take over the world!
:aok :aok ;)
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The European Union is the largest investor in China.....It is also Chinas largest trading partner
Not sure why you would think an American like myself wouldnt answer that question :headscratch:
The "Marshall Plan" "IMF" "World Bank" ??????
So your under the illusion the European Union is a independent construct?
Do you think the US lets europe do what it wants
We owe the US trillions after recent financial collapes :old:
Your grasp of capitalism and the world economics is infantile
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Meanwhile Canada sits back and waits to take over the world!
We have the means and the plan! It's quite simple,we're just going to bore you to death,once you're done poking fun at Rob Ford!!! :neener:
:salute
when they heard the ice age is coming, they started mountain cannons on the icebergs. they're ready to invade!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D.
semp
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The "Marshall Plan" "IMF" "World Bank" ??????
So your under the illusion the European Union is a independent construct?
Do you think the US lets europe do what it wants
We owe the US trillions after recent financial collapes :old:
Your grasp of capitalism and the world economics is infantile
It's member nations and the union itself to a lesser extent are certainly sovereign. At best, the US can only whisper suggestions into their ears, but nothing else without it being so obvious as to undermine it's value.
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So the USA bailed out Europe AGAIN and has no influence upon European economics and policies?
The European Union invests in China to pay back the loans it obtained from the USA .
If you get a loan from the bank do they not want conditions in return :old:
"Das Kapital" by that one of the Marx's is allowed to be read in the US now without you getting blacklisted :old:
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I was reading in the Associated Press that 2 US B-52 bombers flew into this "air defense zone", so China wasn't happy about that.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/27/american-b-52-bombers-ignore-chinese-demand-on-disputed-airspace-and-chinas-not-happy/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/27/american-b-52-bombers-ignore-chinese-demand-on-disputed-airspace-and-chinas-not-happy/)
As well I noticed if you look on the map of the new zone established by China that it's sorta making a slight barrier between Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. Possibly this can be seen as a first step of many of China starting more harsh action against the nation of Taiwan.
(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Nh9Osl1dnlwUOVOxjbW6Lg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU0OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz00OTY-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/55060e95d91d3c27440f6a706700e46a.jpg)
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Apparently both the Japanese and, significantly, the South Koreans have now also flown aircraft through the area without notifying the Chinese.
I saw it pointed out a few years back that China has the un-productive habit of throwing its weight around everywhere, simultaneously, thus managing to p*ss off everybody else at the same time. It's a "Great Leap Forward" in the art of diplomacy.
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I agree with Stealth, and that's why I brought up Taiwan earlier. China doesn't "claim" mainland Japan in any way, but they do claim that Taiwan is theirs, and just a "rogue confused" state that needs to be returned to their fold.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-28/japan-tests-china-s-resolve-with-flights-in-air-zone.html
Japan and South Korea both flew fighters through the area in the last day, and China did nothing to respond. Their CVN should be on station in a couple of days, so we'll see if they launch any J15/SU33 fighters to intercept aircraft once it gets there.
Notice the UK is involved now too. Bloody hell Zack! HMS Daring is in the area, and is going to be taking the road less traveled to a port visit in Japan, right through the exclusion zone - the timing is pretty cute, obviously it'll be there right around the time the Chinese navy CVN gets to the area. HMS Daring is part of a class that's probably one of if not THE best air defense ship in the world, right up there with the Burke and Tico Aegis equipped ships, only newer and with a faster, albeit slightly shorter range radar and tracking system. I just hope the British government has the $ to have sent them into harms way with a full magazine, unlike that last crisis where the media broke the story that they only had 2 or 3 functioning rounds on board for Seawolf system which normally held 32 on HMS Westminster during the Libyan engagements. Dodgy buggahs!
This is getting interesting. I wonder how many US submarines are already tracking and trailing the Chinese CVN. Again, I'd be interested to see how good the Chinese Frigates and Destroyers are at ASW work. They used to be horrible at it, and couldn't even fly their ASW helo's in bad weather or the dark, but times have changed apparently. I'm not saying I think they're great, just that they aren't completely incapable as before.
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I was reading in the Associated Press that 2 US B-52 bombers flew into this "air defense zone", so China wasn't happy about that.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/27/american-b-52-bombers-ignore-chinese-demand-on-disputed-airspace-and-chinas-not-happy/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/27/american-b-52-bombers-ignore-chinese-demand-on-disputed-airspace-and-chinas-not-happy/)
As well I noticed if you look on the map of the new zone established by China that it's sorta making a slight barrier between Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. Possibly this can be seen as a first step of many of China starting more harsh action against the nation of Taiwan.
(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Nh9Osl1dnlwUOVOxjbW6Lg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU0OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz00OTY-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/55060e95d91d3c27440f6a706700e46a.jpg)
looking at the location of this islands, should belong to Taiwan not Japan;
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looking at the location of this islands, should belong to Taiwan not Japan;
Much like the Falklands should belong to Argentina and not the UK..
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looking at the location of this islands, should belong to Taiwan not Japan;
Ehm, that's what the Chinese are saying (naturally, they say Taiwan belongs to them too).
There's other islands in the Ryukyus which are virtually the same distance from Taiwan, but they aren't in dispute. Proximity or no proximity, the unilateral Chinese declaration is de-stabilising and clumsy.
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looking at the location of this islands, should belong to Taiwan not Japan;
By that logic Ireland should belong to the UK... which should belong to France...
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In short, all your base are belong to us.
:airplane:
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Much like the Falklands should belong to Argentina and not the UK..
Or America belonging to the Native Americans not Europeans
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Or America belonging to the Native Americans not Europeans
Apples and oranges. The Natives are still here, even have citizenship, there are just not enough of them to say it's their country any more.
A bit like what happened with Northern Ireland, and flooding the area with protestantism.
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Or America belonging to the Native Americans not Europeans
Once you're born here you are a Native American.
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Apples and oranges. The Natives are still here, even have citizenship, there are just not enough of them to say it's their country any more.
A bit like what happened with Northern Ireland, and flooding the area with protestantism.
We had to make sure the process would work before using it in America :old:
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We had to make sure the process would work before using it in America :old:
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Even had to test a few bioweapons while you were at it!
:salute
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Some Chinese have made noise that Okinawa belongs to China as well. The Chinese government hasn't said that yet, but given China's tendency to expand, pause, expand, pause, expand and so on I expect that if they do get the Senkakus they will eventually start pressing a claim on Okinawa as well. Given that Japan itself managed to repel Kublai Khan's invasion efforts China probably won't ever claim Japan itself, though they might justify attacking Japan based on Japanese actions in WWII.
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I thought Japan expanded into Manchuria in the 1930's.
Karnak is awesome, China gave Lee Harvey his bus fare to get to the book deposititory as well :old:
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Some Chinese have made noise that Okinawa belongs to China as well. The Chinese government hasn't said that yet, but given China's tendency to expand, pause, expand, pause, expand and so on I expect that if they do get the Senkakus they will eventually start pressing a claim on Okinawa as well. Given that Japan itself managed to repel Kublai Khan's invasion efforts China probably won't ever claim Japan itself, though they might justify attacking Japan based on Japanese actions in WWII.
I doubt you will see China getting too greedy, they just want to puff up and be taken seriously. The Chinese aren't stupid, they realize that all of their current good fortune is due to international trade. Without buyers for their iPhones and cheap plastic goods they'll be back to being the same backwards little sideshow of a country they were when Mao was in charge.
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NONSENSE!
listen to Karnak!
This time next week we will all be eating fried, prawns and dumplings :old:
Its Friday!
Its Takeaway night, see its already happening :cry
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NONSENSE!
listen to Karnak!
This time next week we will all be eating fried, prawns and dumplings :old:
Its Friday!
Its Takeaway night, see its already happening :cry
I like my dumplings steamed i'll have you know! :old:
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China just wants what has kept the British Isles afloat for hundreds of years........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSTct2FFamw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSTct2FFamw)
:aok Thank You Europeans for coming to America so I can stuff myself with Turkey and Giblets yesterday.
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I thought Japan expanded into Manchuria in the 1930's.
What do you think I meant by "based on Japanese actions in WWII"?
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:)
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhh!!!!!!
:neener:
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Germans of the rising sun. And then you nooked Berlin, which is why soviets built an anti-radiation wall.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Even had to test a few bioweapons while you were at it!
:salute
Never happened. Another moronic Lie of history fabricated for current trends of PC. A virus needs no help to spread. There is some evidence the British considered this tactic during their French/Indian Wars of 1756 but none that they actually did. U.S authorities never did.
Ah the History of the world in one liners. I love this forum.
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You know very well the US invented "Climate change" and 'Pretzels' :cry
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'Pretzels' :cry
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm tasty!
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Never happened. Another moronic Lie of history fabricated for current trends of PC. A virus needs no help to spread. There is some evidence the British considered this tactic during their French/Indian Wars of 1756 but none that they actually did. U.S authorities never did.
Ah the History of the world in one liners. I love this forum.
Oh so the wise Rich doesn't believe the white man brought small pox to NA and the Natives has no resistance,right never happened....
I love a world of knowitalls and experts.... Rich when you get a clue look for your shoe...... :rolleyes:
:salute
PS: I wasn't talking about any infected blankets,if I was I would have mentioned the killing with kindness your always on about,but I should expect as much from you,you sound just like my cousin,who happens to be a cop..... :headscratch:
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Oh so the wise Rich doesn't believe the white man brought small pox to NA and the Natives has no resistance,right never happened....
I love a world of knowitalls and experts.... Rich when you get a clue look for your shoe...... :rolleyes:
Of course they brought it. And somebody brought the virus to whitey, and one and one it goes.
:salute
PS: I wasn't talking about any infected blankets,if I was I would have mentioned the killing with kindness your always on about,but I should expect as much from you,you sound just like my cousin,who happens to be a cop..... :headscratch:
Oh a "Bio weapon" actually meant an "infection"? Even had to test a few bioweapons while you were at it!
Silly me, I thought it actually meant a "weapon". I bet your cousin, "its always a cousin or a brother who is a cop" :lol, probably thought "weapon" too. In fact I bet all 400,000 cops in this country would think the word "Bio weapon" actually means "weapon, not "infection", and the other 270,000,000 citizens would think bio weapon does in fact mean "infection".
Add another 30,000,000 illegals or so who would think it meant "Infección".
I mean Golly Gee Morfiend.
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(http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad154/TheCrazyOrange1/Chinasbad_zpsc64a4849.jpg)
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Of course they brought it. And somebody brought the virus to whitey, and one and one it goes.
:salute
Oh a "Bio weapon" actually meant an "infection"? Silly me, I thought it actually meant a "weapon". I bet your cousin, "its always a cousin or a brother who is a cop" :lol, probably thought "weapon" too. In fact I bet all 400,000 cops in this country would think the word "Bio weapon" actually means "weapon, not "infection", and the other 270,000,000 citizens would think bio weapon does in fact mean "infection".
Add another 30,000,000 illegals or so who would think it meant "Infección".
I mean Golly Gee Morfiend.
Actually Rich my "cousin" is no longer with us but that's neither here nor there. Oh and I live in the great white north so we don't assume everyone is packing a "weapon".
But by all means go on assuming all you want.
:salute
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China is funding a major railway project in Britain :old:
Who remembers the "Water Margin" and "Monkey" tv series?
:)
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Monkey Magic!