Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on February 19, 2014, 06:36:42 AM
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I refuse to repost the pic, but it's in the link.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/18/national-guard-coffin-photo/5579065/
I have no idea what was running thru their minds or who trained these kids, but this is not acceptable behavior. We put the fun in funeral? What the hell were they thinking taking that pic? Heads will roll.
The photo was taken with an empty casket at a training facility in Arkansas, Rickert said. A second photo has drawn attention from the same social media account depicting the female soldier complaining about the cold weather in Wisconsin and an upcoming outdoor funeral.
Spc. Terry Harrison, who posted the photo on Instagram, was “indefinitely suspended,” Rickert said. She is a member of the Madison-based 1st Battalion, 147th Aviation Regiment.
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i've seen dumber stunts but that was back before the retardnet and social stupidity. it's a clear sign of the times, a lot of poor decisions and choices being displayed for all the world to see.
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Stupid but not really outrage worthy.
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It's not that they took the picture or didn't fancy being at a graveside in Wisconsin in the middle of winter, it's that they actually thought social media was an acceptable outlet.
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No its that they "took the picture". They are not deserving to wear the uniform of their country and should be discharged under less the honorable conditions. This isnt one bad decision its 14 of them.
We have kids lining up down the block to wear that uniform. So find some new ones worthy of doing so.
They have obviously never lost a brother in battle.
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I am not trying to defend the soldiers or comments here. People sometimes do stupid stuff, especially when in a group. I don't believe any great disrespect was intended. We have to remember serving in the armed forces is stressful at times and these are only young adults who are dealing with crap most will never experience.
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No its that they "took the picture". They are not deserving to wear the uniform of their country and should be discharged under less the honorable conditions. This isnt one bad decision its 14 of them.
We have kids lining up down the block to wear that uniform. So find some new ones worthy of doing so.
They have obviously never lost a brother in battle.
The photo is no more unprofessional than the countless pictures we've seen with soldiers doing gangster poses with their guns in uniform. The grumbling about having to do a service in the cold is more unbecoming than taking a silly picture during a break in training. That comment is personal to the family of the veteran whose service they were participating in.
Make no mistake, this was pretty stupid, but this wasn't the detail at Arlington posing in front of headstones. It was a guard unit in Wisconsin.
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Stupid? Most definitely. Court marshal offense, nope. Reason for LOTS of admin punishment you betcha, reduction and certainly reassignment. Their reaction to punishment might be grounds for bar to re-enlistment but this is a pretty silly stupid stunt and not as serious as a lot of other offenses.
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poor taste and poor judgement.
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The photo is no more unprofessional than the countless pictures we've seen with soldiers doing gangster poses with their guns in uniform. The grumbling about having to do a service in the cold is more unbecoming than taking a silly picture during a break in training. That comment is personal to the family of the veteran whose service they were participating in.
Make no mistake, this was pretty stupid, but this wasn't the detail at Arlington posing in front of headstones. It was a guard unit in Wisconsin.
It is far worse then doing something "unprofessional", or "gangsta poses". or "grumbling". Mocking a KIA, even if no-one is currently in it, is bad enough, but your also mocking the flag covering it. I feel like back handing a piss ant civilian for eating his GD hot dog during the anthem at a ball game but what I feel for this bunch is even worse.
Because they are Soldiers!
To me its worse then getting caught smoking a doobie on the front lawn of the White house in full uniform. But...I wore the uniform for four years and everyday put the flag up and down. I still keep strict Flag protocol at my own house when displaying it. Jesus? A flag draped coffin?
No they dont deserve jail and maybe should have an avenue to eventually get their HD after 6 mos of good behavior outside the service but I dont think they should be allowed to stay in and just get AR-15'd. They are young and were being stupid but they arent dangerous criminals.
Maybe Im being to hard on them but if I am I'd rather be told so by other vets.
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It is far worse then doing something "unprofessional", or "gangsta poses". or "grumbling". Mocking a KIA, even if no-one is currently in it, is bad enough, but your also mocking the flag covering it. I feel like back handing a piss ant civilian for eating his GD hot dog during the anthem at a ball game but what I feel for this bunch is even worse.
Because they are Soldiers!
To me its worse then getting caught smoking a doobie on the front lawn of the White house in full uniform. But...I wore the uniform for four years and everyday put the flag up and down. I still keep strict Flag protocol at my own house when displaying it. Jesus? A flag draped coffin?
No they dont deserve jail and maybe should have an avenue to eventually get their HD after 6 mos of good behavior outside the service but I dont think they should be allowed to stay in and just get AR-15'd. They are young and were being stupid but they arent dangerous criminals.
Maybe Im being to hard on them but if I am I'd rather be told so by other vets.
Piss ant civilian? Wow. At least I know where you're coming from.
The absence of a body in that casket makes a monumental difference, as do the other facts that give us context. All of that adds up to make me sad for their stupidity rather than madder than hell at their lack of respect.
Basically, what they were doing in the picture is the same thing nearly everyone does when faced with depressing aspects of their job... they attempt to make light of it. Most people have the good sense to keep in amongst colleagues and not post a picture on Instagram though.
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Triton are you active Military or a vet?
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This is beyond pathetic. It is one of those that any decent person would not even have to be told, let alone soldiers in uniform.
Our society is being gutted. This does not mean the end of civilization by any means. It does mean the days of America are numbered. We will soon find no value in the Flag, Pledge, National Anthem and with it the values that made us the greatest nation.
More than a coffin lies at State there.
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Triton are you active Military or a vet?
You don't have to be either a vet or in active service to share an opinion, and you have the right to ignore it as well. One of those great freedoms so many enjoy because of our military.
poor taste and poor judgment.
Tomcat said it best... Honor Guard troops have to be professional at all times while within the public eye and this undermines their effort tremendously.
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Oh I well know Triton never served but my question was directed towards him pointedly. It should not have been quoted by another.
The Flag, let alone a flag draped coffin, has special significance in the military family. Both active, retired, and veteran. It should to the entire country, and to many it does, but lets face it. To many it doesnt. Hell you can even burn the thing legally. On a military base a Military member can be arrested just for not stopping and showing proper protocol when its being raised or lowered. Even if your in a car. On ANY Military base by ANY military member of ANY military service.
So anybody serving, like my son and the kids of many in AH, or have served, know this far more then those who havnt. And anyone who would post this The photo is no more unprofessional than the countless pictures we've seen with soldiers doing gangster poses with their guns in uniform. The grumbling about having to do a service in the cold is more unbecoming than taking a silly picture during a break in training. That comment is personal to the family of the veteran whose service they were participating in.
Make no mistake, this was pretty stupid, but this wasn't the detail at Arlington posing in front of headstones. It was a guard unit in Wisconsin.
Clearly hasnt. My question was rhetorical. Because it doesnt matter where in Hell it happened at, Arlington, Wisconsin, Afghanistan, or the damn moon. Its all the same.
I dont want to see these people get crushed but they have clearly lost the right to wear the uniform.
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I am not trying to defend the soldiers or comments here. People sometimes do stupid stuff, especially when in a group. I don't believe any great disrespect was intended. We have to remember serving in the armed forces is stressful at times and these are only young adults who are dealing with crap most will never experience.
The are in the Wisconsin National Guard, about as stressful as working at McDonald's. Today's soldiers make me sick with the stupid things they do and get away with that would have been unspeakable up until the recent past.
I'm glad I'm out now. I don't have anything in common with these Generation X(box) soldiers that have it too easy nowadays to begin with. I'm proud to have been the last generation of soldiers that had to spit shine boots, etc.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1656101_675695029159242_2133315542_n.jpg)
I would LOVE to take this airman's face and slam it into that wall 10 or so times. I don't care what anyone says, today's military is garbage to what it was even 10 years ago, personnel-wise (with exceptions of course).
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I am not trying to defend the soldiers or comments here. People sometimes do stupid stuff, especially when in a group. I don't believe any great disrespect was intended. We have to remember serving in the armed forces is stressful at times and these are only young adults who are dealing with crap most will never experience.
It's still no excuse for a basic lack of respect and consideration for those who served and sacrificed well before her time. The fact that she even considered doing this shows her true lack of character.
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you guys act as if things like this just started happening in the last couple of years.
you remember the american flag being burned? kids throwing dog crap on returning soldiers at airports? kids asking how many babies did you kill? some are really proud they did that to this day.
-we have had caskets being used to transport drugs.
-pows crawling out of their beds to lay down on their own graves because they saw their own how they treated the dead.
-kids going to war and coming back as double veterans.
crap like this has being going own since the beginning of time. stupidity is not new, it's just old.
the only reason we hear more about it now, is because of the internet. so go on and bash the new generation and forget that the one you belong to really didnt do things different. only difference is the pictures arent circulating as fast.
semp
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Way to drive the tread off into the ditch, Mr. Obvious. :headscratch:
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Oh I well know Triton never served but my question was directed towards him pointedly. It should not have been quoted by another.
The Flag, let alone a flag draped coffin, has special significance in the military family. Both active, retired, and veteran. It should to the entire country, and to many it does, but lets face it. To many it doesnt. Hell you can even burn the thing legally. On a military base a Military member can be arrested just for not stopping and showing proper protocol when its being raised or lowered. Even if your in a car. On ANY Military base by ANY military member of ANY military service.
So anybody serving, like my son and the kids of many in AH, or have served, know this far more then those who havnt. And anyone who would post this Clearly hasnt. My question was rhetorical. Because it doesnt matter where in Hell it happened at, Arlington, Wisconsin, Afghanistan, or the damn moon. Its all the same.
I dont want to see these people get crushed but they have clearly lost the right to wear the uniform.
Rank or DD-214 have nothing to do with my opinion of this photo.
Believe it or not, it's a part of my job to help honor and serve veterans and their families. Is my opinion more valid now?
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The are in the Wisconsin National Guard, about as stressful as working at McDonald's.
Maybe or maybe not. The honor guard I'm most familiar with in my area stays very busy with services and does a good bit of traveling to get to many of them. It's not digging ditches but it's not exactly easy.
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Rank or DD-214 have nothing to do with my opinion of this photo.
Believe it or not, it's a part of my job to help honor and serve veterans and their families. Is my opinion more valid now?
It was always valid. I just didnt agree with it. And no it is no more valid now then it was then.
The sniveling about the "piss ant civilian" comment did get to me tho. I never did call you a piss ant civilian nor should you take it any more personal then I do with the picture of the piss ant 3 striper USAF Bimbo "dissing" the MIA sign, while in the service I belonged to, and the one my son is in right now. I do hope she is now a 2 striper but would probably have 12 special interest groups lining up to prevent that.
So I will add a touch of humility to this story. Ever since I was in I kept up on Military hardware, its capability, and the awesome destructive power of the American military machine. I too watched in fascination as CNN showed the videos of our troops dismantling a tyrants army, how we thumped the Taliban in Afcrapistan. Then I was in a forum once talking up these capabilities when a father who lost a son in Iraq posted his story, about his Loss, and what it meant for him and his family.
And I felt shame. Shame for my knowledge, and my bragging, and my pride, and those videos. And now with my boy in...........God what would I be feeling were I that man and his family? If my boy was in one of those flag draped coffins.....
So I dont participate in defense forums anymore. Or I focus more on History then current adventures, "which I distrust more and more". Every time I want to crow about our shiny new toys I remember that man and his loss and I dont want to feel that shame again. I never felt worry about my own safety in all the crap Ive been in but I dont want to see these kids ever have to fight and die again. Nor will I tolerate the very symbol of their sacrifice disrespected.
So theres My humble moment. And thank you for your service to our veterans and their families. :salute
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Guncrasher, I get to see your dismissive tone daily on the policy end of public education. Sadly, it is a default 'can't win so just accept.' The opposite of your attitude is transformational in some of the worst public schools in America.
Simply hard data tells us two things: One, yes boorish behavior has gone on for a long time. Two, it has gotten dramatically worse in so many measurable ways.
If you were the leader of any organization I would fire you immediately upon the completion of your sentence and put someone in place who would set high standards and demand that those engaged in the endeavor meet them. And simple dictates of leadership mean that most of them would meet the "new," higher standards.
You are flat out wrong!
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Guncrasher, I get to see your dismissive tone daily on the policy end of public education. Sadly, it is a default 'can't win so just accept.' The opposite of your attitude is transformational in some of the worst public schools in America.
Simply hard data tells us two things: One, yes boorish behavior has gone on for a long time. Two, it has gotten dramatically worse in so many measurable ways.
If you were the leader of any organization I would fire you immediately upon the completion of your sentence and put someone in place who would set high standards and demand that those engaged in the endeavor meet them. And simple dictates of leadership mean that most of them would meet the "new," higher standards.
You are flat out wrong!
+1 The lack of respect is to the principles of our Country come not enough strong Leadership.. I think to many forget that it is spose to be lonely at the top.
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The are in the Wisconsin National Guard, about as stressful as working at McDonald's. Today's soldiers make me sick with the stupid things they do and get away with that would have been unspeakable up until the recent past.
I'm glad I'm out now. I don't have anything in common with these Generation X(box) soldiers that have it too easy nowadays to begin with. I'm proud to have been the last generation of soldiers that had to spit shine boots, etc.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1656101_675695029159242_2133315542_n.jpg)
I would LOVE to take this airman's face and slam it into that wall 10 or so times. I don't care what anyone says, today's military is garbage to what it was even 10 years ago, personnel-wise (with exceptions of course).
What a damn disgrace. I'd like to rip her chevrons off and send her butt along with those in the honor guard to drive supply trucks up and down the roads of Afghanistan.
Stupid just friggin stupid.
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Guncrasher, I get to see your dismissive tone daily on the policy end of public education. Sadly, it is a default 'can't win so just accept.' The opposite of your attitude is transformational in some of the worst public schools in America.
Simply hard data tells us two things: One, yes boorish behavior has gone on for a long time. Two, it has gotten dramatically worse in so many measurable ways.
If you were the leader of any organization I would fire you immediately upon the completion of your sentence and put someone in place who would set high standards and demand that those engaged in the endeavor meet them. And simple dictates of leadership mean that most of them would meet the "new," higher standards.
You are flat out wrong!
you assume that that I dont find those pictures disgusting. actually I do. and if it was up to me I would most definitely find a way to humiliate them so perhaps they understand a little better what they did.
on the other hand, I hate the "this generation is going down the trash" wagon. when I was growing up they used to say that about my generation, and I bet the said the same thing about my parents generation. and prior to that it was my grandparents generation that was going down the toilet.
idiots doing something that is embarrassing to our men in uniform has been going on since day one. it isnt something new that was just started a few years ago. that is what I am referring to. this "in my generation we all respected...." is just bs. every generation has always has idiots that will do something they think it's funny but in reality they should have their butts kicked for it.
and for sure I am not wrong about this.
semp
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on the other hand, I hate the "this generation is going down the trash" wagon. when I was growing up they used to say that about my generation, and I bet the said the same thing about my parents generation. and prior to that it was my grandparents generation that was going down the toilet.
You have to consider they may have been right.
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You have to consider they may have been right.
well considering that I dont do the things my parents did. I would probably say they are wrong.
semp
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I find it rather amusing....
"We put the FUN in FUNERAL!!" C'mon, that's hilarious!!
A few of you are taking things like this as well as yourselves a bit too seriously....
And I find that amusing as well.. :lol
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I find it rather amusing....
"We put the FUN in FUNERAL!!" C'mon, that's hilarious!!
A few of you are taking things like this as well as yourselves a bit too seriously....
And I find that amusing as well.. :lol
Also, the military has a pretty bad sexual assault/rape problem.. And you're worried about this??
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The are in the Wisconsin National Guard, about as stressful as working at McDonald's. Today's soldiers make me sick with the stupid things they do and get away with that would have been unspeakable up until the recent past.
I'm glad I'm out now. I don't have anything in common with these Generation X(box) soldiers that have it too easy nowadays to begin with. I'm proud to have been the last generation of soldiers that had to spit shine boots, etc.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1656101_675695029159242_2133315542_n.jpg)
I would LOVE to take this airman's face and slam it into that wall 10 or so times. I don't care what anyone says, today's military is garbage to what it was even 10 years ago, personnel-wise (with exceptions of course).
You probably just want to slam her face because she's black..
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You probably just want to slam her face because she's black..
weak
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You probably just want to slam her face because she's black..
She's black?! I did notice she's wearing a U.S. Military uniform. That's the point.
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You probably just want to slam her face because she's black..
Its nice to know "stupider" is a term that still evolves.
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You probably just want to slam her face because she's black..
good clue that you have a mental deficiency...here is some advice for you.
(http://www.troll.me/images/pissed-off-obama/you-just-went-full-retard-never-go-full-retard-thumb.jpg)
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You probably just want to slam her face because she's black..
You have demonstrated a complete lack of any pretense of intellect. Just curious, what is your in-game name?
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What, truth is disturbing to you? I bet most of you are the type who say the "N" word multiple times a day every time you see a person who's not white....
I'd say it'd be safe to assume that most of the subscribers here feel the same way.. You like guns.. You like Jesus.. You like confederate flags.. Yes,
stereotypes are there for a reason.. I'm sorry you find the trust offensive.. But you can't discount what many of you say on 200..
I left for a year.. It is disheartening to know that things have actually regressed with regards to how "human" some of you are....
Guess I wasted $14.95..... Again..
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What, truth is disturbing to you? I bet most of you are the type who say the "N" word multiple times a day every time you see a person who's not white....
I'd say it'd be safe to assume that most of the subscribers here feel the same way.. You like guns.. You like Jesus.. You like confederate flags.. Yes,
stereotypes are there for a reason.. I'm sorry you find the trust offensive.. But you can't discount what many of you say on 200..
I left for a year.. It is disheartening to know that things have actually regressed with regards to how "human" some of you are....
Guess I wasted $14.95..... Again..
And now he's building on it. Assumptions on people he has never even met. My God what a fool.
To the matter at hand I have to agree with those who say moral standards have slipped among the young in the last 10 to 20 years. I actually had a kid checking out my grocerys call me "dude" the other day. He was like 17yo. And it happens all the time, and these are the good kids. You should see the little gangstas im always chasing around the block.
When I was a kid and a young troop we pulled our stunts but never, ever disrespected an elder. "They" were Mr., Mrs., Sir, or Ma'm. And 4 years in USAF I never once heard of even one incident of disrespect to the flag of any kind.
Just makes me glad my boy was raised right.
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What, truth is disturbing to you? I bet most of you are the type who say the "N" word multiple times a day every time you see a person who's not white....
I'd say it'd be safe to assume that most of the subscribers here feel the same way.. You like guns.. You like Jesus.. You like confederate flags.. Yes,
stereotypes are there for a reason.. I'm sorry you find the trust offensive.. But you can't discount what many of you say on 200..
I left for a year.. It is disheartening to know that things have actually regressed with regards to how "human" some of you are....
Guess I wasted $14.95..... Again..
Don't put your prejudices on me. Just because you, and the friends you hang out with use raciallly offensive language does not mean that "most" of us do too. It's not funny, and you're not funny. It's not cool and you're not cool. It's incredibly stupid and you're ............
You wonder why things here never change when it's you that maybe needs the change. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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I looked at the pic, without the full details I don't see what the fuss is about.
Looks like another tabloid style story to me.
I hope the people at my funeral are that happy. It's certainly in my will; "Don't show sadness on the day, it is a celebration of life".
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I hope the people at my funeral are that happy.
....well....now that you mention it....
- oldman
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What, truth is disturbing to you? I bet most of you are the type who say the "N" word multiple times a day every time you see a person who's not white....
I'd say it'd be safe to assume that most of the subscribers here feel the same way.. You like guns.. You like Jesus.. You like confederate flags.. Yes,
stereotypes are there for a reason.. I'm sorry you find the trust offensive.. But you can't discount what many of you say on 200..
I left for a year.. It is disheartening to know that things have actually regressed with regards to how "human" some of you are....
Guess I wasted $14.95..... Again..
The fact you are a nitwit is just fine. Go live you life as you see fit, to include presumptions that have ZERO basis in truth. The fact that you openly assail individuals with your ubber political correct attacks....they must be shouted down.
You've been on "200." So have I. In the three or four years I've been here I've never heard anyone say such a thing, nor attempt some random spelling of the word to get past the filter. It is deplorable. This is like saying those who want a balanced budget over massive, unsustainable debt is a racist. Bottom line, you are engaged on Leninist style psychological warfare.
Weak...
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It is far worse then doing something "unprofessional", or "gangsta poses". or "grumbling". Mocking a KIA, even if no-one is currently in it, is bad enough, but your also mocking the flag covering it. I feel like back handing a piss ant civilian for eating his GD hot dog during the anthem at a ball game but what I feel for this bunch is even worse.
Because they are Soldiers!
To me its worse then getting caught smoking a doobie on the front lawn of the White house in full uniform. But...I wore the uniform for four years and everyday put the flag up and down. I still keep strict Flag protocol at my own house when displaying it. Jesus? A flag draped coffin?
No they dont deserve jail and maybe should have an avenue to eventually get their HD after 6 mos of good behavior outside the service but I dont think they should be allowed to stay in and just get AR-15'd. They are young and were being stupid but they arent dangerous criminals.
Maybe Im being to hard on them but if I am I'd rather be told so by other vets.
My recommendation would depend a great deal on what else they did or did not do during time in service. Any combination of multiple minor foul ups or a single serious one. I would recommend the route you do. I would recommend admin if they had a great deal of potential and no serious foul ups or they had exemplary service records. That would be for the enlisted personnel. Any NCO doing this would be less than honorable and no chance to upgrade to HD. Any of them that were retained would be in my doghouse for a good long time. There is no excuse for this. This is not a peacetime military. Everyone of them I would wager serves drill and AT time with combat veterans. I would be surprised if a large percentage of them had not been to Afghanistan or Iraq. Triton the fact that they are reservist's would weigh against them with me. These people share the same communities as any relatives of dead servicemen that might see what they are posting. Reserve formations usually have brighter people than regular formations do.
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I looked at the pic, without the full details I don't see what the fuss is about.
Looks like another tabloid style story to me.
I hope the people at my funeral are that happy. It's certainly in my will; "Don't show sadness on the day, it is a celebration of life".
Dolby that may be the attitude for someone that has died a natural death. It might be okay if there was not mother's and fathers. Brothers and sisters. Wives and husbands. Sons and daughters. That are in shock from the surprise of losing someone in an unnatural , premature and violent death. These people are thinking things like , did he/she suffer ? Is what they died for worth it ? The people "putting the fun in funeral" have had training. This is a reserve formation. They share the community of the people they will be hurting. To add any pain to what the people who have lost a loved one who was in service to his/her nation is not something to tolerate lightly.
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What, truth is disturbing to you? I bet most of you are the type who say the "N" word multiple times a day every time you see a person who's not white....
I'd say it'd be safe to assume that most of the subscribers here feel the same way.. You like guns.. You like Jesus.. You like confederate flags.. Yes,
stereotypes are there for a reason.. I'm sorry you find the trust offensive.. But you can't discount what many of you say on 200..
I left for a year.. It is disheartening to know that things have actually regressed with regards to how "human" some of you are....
Guess I wasted $14.95..... Again..
This just made my top 5 stupidest posts of all time. Congrats.
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What, truth is disturbing to you? I bet most of you are the type who say the "N" word multiple times a day every time you see a person who's not white....
I'd say it'd be safe to assume that most of the subscribers here feel the same way.. You like guns.. You like Jesus.. You like confederate flags.. Yes,
stereotypes are there for a reason.. I'm sorry you find the trust offensive.. But you can't discount what many of you say on 200..
I left for a year.. It is disheartening to know that things have actually regressed with regards to how "human" some of you are....
Guess I wasted $14.95..... Again..
I have found you painfully closed minded on a subject or two before. This is way past that. Hypocrisy is so ugly bro. In one sentence you are flaying people for engaging in actions that stereotype , using the N word. Then you stereotype with the next few lines. You set yourself up as the supreme knowledge about a bunch of subjects that are very deep and complex. You are intolerant of any view that differs from yours. While trying to set yourself up as some kind of defender of people enduring racial oppression. You make a huge assumption about a group of people based on next to nothing. Is that not by definition prejudice ? Before you reply make sure you can back up any claim you make <as if>. There is evidence in the form of testimony to support or prove mine.
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Oh I well know Triton never served but my question was directed towards him pointedly. It should not have been quoted by another.
The Flag, let alone a flag draped coffin, has special significance in the military family. Both active, retired, and veteran. It should to the entire country, and to many it does, but lets face it. To many it doesnt. Hell you can even burn the thing legally. On a military base a Military member can be arrested just for not stopping and showing proper protocol when its being raised or lowered. Even if your in a car. On ANY Military base by ANY military member of ANY military service.
So anybody serving, like my son and the kids of many in AH, or have served, know this far more then those who havnt. And anyone who would post this Clearly hasnt. My question was rhetorical. Because it doesnt matter where in Hell it happened at, Arlington, Wisconsin, Afghanistan, or the damn moon. Its all the same.
I dont want to see these people get crushed but they have clearly lost the right to wear the uniform.
Triton may not be a vet bro. His opinion on this subject has value for other reasons. He is very qualified by things in his life to have a valuable opinion. 22 years in service gives me some knowledge that may make mine almost as valuable as his. What i know about Triton personally makes me weigh and consider his opinion before I decide on mine. Before I recommend anything I would need to know a great deal more about the soldiers involved. Where it happened does make a difference. I disagree with Triton about it being less serious for a NG formation, for reasons stated in previous posts. The fact that he is a US citizen gives him the "RIGHT" to state it. Del enjoys the same right to quote you by virtue of being a US citizen as well. There is only one thing that pisses me off worse than some one burning the flag. That is some one trying to stop them. I believe in what I swore to defend.
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Triton may not be a vet bro. His opinion on this subject has value for other reasons. He is very qualified by things in his life to have a valuable opinion. 22 years in service gives me some knowledge that may make mine almost as valuable as his. What i know about Triton personally makes me weigh and consider his opinion before I decide on mine. Before I recommend anything I would need to know a great deal more about the soldiers involved. Where it happened does make a difference. I disagree with Triton about it being less serious for a NG formation, for reasons stated in previous posts. The fact that he is a US citizen gives him the "RIGHT" to state it. Del enjoys the same right to quote you by virtue of being a US citizen as well. There is only one thing that pisses me off worse than some one burning the flag. That is some one trying to stop them. I believe in what I swore to defend.
by far one of the most insightful and correct thoughts spoken on this here BBS........ :salute
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Contact left, contact right.....contact 6.
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I think burning the flag should be a felony.
But I digress. We wont go there.
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There is only one thing that pisses me off worse than some one burning the flag. That is some one trying to stop them.
:salute
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Triton may not be a vet bro. His opinion on this subject has value for other reasons. He is very qualified by things in his life to have a valuable opinion. 22 years in service gives me some knowledge that may make mine almost as valuable as his. What i know about Triton personally makes me weigh and consider his opinion before I decide on mine. Before I recommend anything I would need to know a great deal more about the soldiers involved. Where it happened does make a difference. I disagree with Triton about it being less serious for a NG formation, for reasons stated in previous posts. The fact that he is a US citizen gives him the "RIGHT" to state it. Del enjoys the same right to quote you by virtue of being a US citizen as well. There is only one thing that pisses me off worse than some one burning the flag. That is some one trying to stop them. I believe in what I swore to defend.
out of curiosity, only citizens have that right, since you make it a point to mention us citizens?
semp
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out of curiosity, only citizens have that right, since you make it a point to mention us citizens?
semp
Does anyone understand him when he types?
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Does anyone understand him when he types?
wow is the IQ of the rest of the ava staff like yours? no wonder you guys cant get people to play there.
semp
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:rofl
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I think burning the flag should be a felony.
But I digress. We wont go there.
If it wasn't such a powerful statement, I would agree . Rich you and I both look at that flag and see, the Constitution, the ideals,and what it used to be. Some people see the symbol of a government out of control. One that does not honor the oath of office they each and every one took. We see family or friends that have wrote that blank check when we took that same oath. They see people that are mouthing sacred words. We see people we care about ready and willing to cash that check up to and including the ultimate price because they took that oath. To them it is mere words that must be spoken to have their power or a paycheck. To us it is a sacred pledge we will honor for the rest of our days. What we see and what they see are both real. What is needed is for both groups to see the entire truth. Those two different perceptions are why I feel as I do about flag burning.
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wow is the IQ of the rest of the ava staff like yours? no wonder you guys cant get people to play there.
semp
You speak gibberish and question my I.Q.?
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out of curiosity, only citizens have that right, since you make it a point to mention us citizens?
semp
As citizens of the U.S. they have that right given to them by God/Nature. It is so important it is the first right protected in our Bill of Rights. I took no other oath Semp. Sorry dude if you are not someone guaranteed that right. My country and my people are in enough trouble I can't help you defend your rights at the moment. Maybe after I help clean up my own mess I will help you with yours. U.S. citizens are historically known for doing that. :cheers: If I did not decipher that gibberish correctly please forgive me. My dad was the intel analyst. I was a grunt. I just assumed you meant U.S. and not us.
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Semp appears to be asking a question regarding freedom of speech in relation to being a citizen, however he composes most of his questions in a third grade, attention deficit disorder manner that makes them indecipherable.
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Semp appears to be asking a question regarding freedom of speech in relation to being a citizen, however he composes most of his questions in a third grade, attention deficit disorder manner that makes them indecipherable.
Ahhhh Thanks Blu. I was hoping someone would come in and clarify what was asked. I assumed he was not in the U.S. and wanted my help with protecting his freedom of speech. No Semp there are other people in our nation that enjoy the protection of the 1st amendment. That clear it up for you ? Aint these Muppets great? They accept me just like as if I was smart too.
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Oh I well know Triton never served but my question was directed towards him pointedly. It should not have been quoted by another.
Follow this link:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=pm;sa=send
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As citizens of the U.S. they have that right given to them by God/Nature. It is so important it is the first right protected in our Bill of Rights. I took no other oath Semp. Sorry dude if you are not someone guaranteed that right. My country and my people are in enough trouble I can't help you defend your rights at the moment. Maybe after I help clean up my own mess I will help you with yours. U.S. citizens are historically known for doing that. :cheers: If I did not decipher that gibberish correctly please forgive me. My dad was the intel analyst. I was a grunt. I just assumed you meant U.S. and not us.
see hlbly, i came to this country legally. as soon as I could, I enlisted in the us marines. I was not a citizen yet, and yet somehow I had these rights that you speak of. rights that you so cherish that you even imply that they must be only for the U.S. citizens. yet we have thousands of legal residents (and a few illegal, but that's another story) that have sworn to defend these rights that you so cherish, but you clearly point out that they dont have.
it's comments like yours that sometimes makes me question how truly people know the rights that they are "so proud to uphold".
semp
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Semp appears to be asking a question regarding freedom of speech in relation to being a citizen, however he composes most of his questions in a third grade, attention deficit disorder manner that makes them indecipherable.
think you have made it very clear that the only right you have earned is the right to smoke pot.
semp
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see hlbly, i came to this country legally. as soon as I could, I enlisted in the us marines. I was not a citizen yet, and yet somehow I had these rights that you speak of. rights that you so cherish that you even imply that they must be only for the U.S. citizens. yet we have thousands of legal residents (and a few illegal, but that's another story) that have sworn to defend these rights that you so cherish, but you clearly point out that they dont have.
it's comments like yours that sometimes makes me question how truly people know the rights that they are "so proud to uphold".
semp
I thought you said your brother was the Marine?
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I thought you said your brother was the Marine?
I mentioned many times before that I was a marine, along with my brother, we both followed our father. I also take it personally when people talk about rights as if they were reserved to U.S. citizens only, they arent, whether some people like it or not.
there are some rights that are only reserved to citizens like the right to vote for president, but most are guaranteed to all. most people only know their rights as they think they should be, not how they are.
and hillbly these rights arent given by god, they are given by the constitution of the united states.
semp
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I mentioned many times before that I was a marine, along with my brother, we both followed our father. I also take it personally when people talk about rights as if they were reserved to U.S. citizens only, they arent, whether some people like it or not.
there are some rights that are only reserved to citizens like the right to vote for president, but most are guaranteed to all. most people only know their rights as they think they should be, not how they are.
and hillbly these rights arent given by god, they are given by the constitution of the united states.
semp
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Oh great... Thier creator... Mothers! :uhoh
(http://thraciancleaners.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/angry-mother-cleaner.jpg)
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wow is the IQ of the rest of the ava staff like yours? no wonder you guys cant get people to play there.
semp
A truly weak statement based on a lame generalization, not to mention completely void of any facts.
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A truly weak statement based on a lame generalization, not to mention completely void of any facts.
Its the pace of the discussion.
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
semp
edit: and ink, our creator could be anything we believe in. be it a "supreme god", "intelligent design" :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl, buda or just as simple as your mother and father.
see that's the beauty of the constitution. it was written in a way that it's supposed to unite people not separate.
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
semp
edit: and ink, our creator could be anything we believe in. be it a "supreme god", "intelligent design" :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl, buda or just as simple as your mother and father.
see that's the beauty of the constitution. it was written in a way that it's supposed to unite people not separate.
Yet here we are in a plethora of individuality and perspectives. Too bad we all can't just get along and accept that we might have different viewpoints on something, but that we can still coexist and live life to what we deem be the fullest?
:salute
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If it wasn't such a powerful statement, I would agree . Rich you and I both look at that flag and see, the Constitution, the ideals,and what it used to be. Some people see the symbol of a government out of control. One that does not honor the oath of office they each and every one took. We see family or friends that have wrote that blank check when we took that same oath. They see people that are mouthing sacred words. We see people we care about ready and willing to cash that check up to and including the ultimate price because they took that oath. To them it is mere words that must be spoken to have their power or a paycheck. To us it is a sacred pledge we will honor for the rest of our days. What we see and what they see are both real. What is needed is for both groups to see the entire truth. Those two different perceptions are why I feel as I do about flag burning.
As for myself I see dead and maimed soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guard, troops on the field of battle and/or trying to repair shattered lives after Protecting our freedoms and ridding the world of tyrants. I also see millions of men and woman who gave up many years of their prime to do the same if called upon. It doesnt matter if they were volunteers, if anything a volunteer service brings us back to the roots of American military service.
Anyway thats what I see when I see the Flag. Sacrifice! And its why I think there should be a criminal penalty for defacing it, and why nobody will ever change my mind.
I seek no understanding or middle ground with those who would harm the symbol of these sacrifices and I feel only contempt and anger at those who would do so. I'd rather see them sitting in a jail cell then appear on Oprah with them to discuss the matter.
As strongly as I felt about it before it has tripled since my own Boy has taken the oath. Thats why I Love Texas and San Antonio area. Now that is a state and a community that knows how to pay honor to the military family and the Constitution. :salute
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As strongly as I felt about it before it has tripled since my own Boy has taken the oath. Thats why I Love Texas and San Antonio area. Now that is a state and a community that knows how to pay honor to the military family and the Constitution. :salute
My son Thomas in 2007 doing his rehab at Ft Sam Houston in San Antonio after being wounded in Iraq. The local community really does honor and show love for the military community especially the wounded warriors. He was always treated with diginity and respect when out in public. We'll always love and be grateful for the city of San Antonio in this family.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/Thomas1.jpg)
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Shifty, your son Thomas, words fail me Sir.
Thank you Thomas, thank you very much, I shall forever be in your debt.
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:salute
THOMAS "Shifty" PWNS CHANGEUP
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My son Thomas in 2007 doing his rehab at Ft Sam Houston in San Antonio after being wounded in Iraq. The local community really does honor and show love for the military community especially the wounded warriors. He was always treated with diginity and respect when out in public. We'll always love and be grateful for the city of San Antonio in this family.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/Thomas1.jpg)
Thomas looks like one badass motherɟucker.
Thank you for you service Thomas, I am grateful for all you have done for us. :salute
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:salute
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Thanks guys I'm pretty damn proud of that guy. In fact the wife and I just got home from his house. He and his wife added to our growing grandchildren roll call with a little boy back in December.
So we were busy today doing the grandparent thing today. :aok
By the way that is one reason the photos of the honor guard and the Airman upset me so. Not just because of my son only, but all the wounded Soldiers and Marines I saw the eight weeks I spent down in San Antonio. I've never been prouder of our young people as I was watching all these young warriors overcome their wounds. Then to see our war dead and MIAs being treated with contempt through photos by current troops.. They deserve better than that. Being a 16 year USAF vet the Airman pisses me off the most. Again I cannot say enough good things about the people of San Antonio.
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Thomas looks like one badass motherɟucker.
Thank you for you service Thomas, I am grateful for all you have done for us. :salute
Indeed, that picture is the true definition of it.
Additionally, Thomas never lost his moxi as evidenced by the quote on the bottom of his proud Dad's forum page "Haji may have blown my legs off, but I'm still a stud." -SPC Thomas Vandeventer 1st Cav
Like Shifty said, I'm very proud of this generation of volunteers in our military. To have this weakling example of an Honor Guard member do what she did is beyond disgusting and dishonorable.
<S> Thomas. Thanks for going the distance! :aok :salute
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My son Thomas in 2007 doing his rehab at Ft Sam Houston in San Antonio after being wounded in Iraq. The local community really does honor and show love for the military community especially the wounded warriors. He was always treated with diginity and respect when out in public. We'll always love and be grateful for the city of San Antonio in this family.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/Thomas1.jpg)
bet some guys here wish they had 1/2 the guts he has, I know I sure wish I had :salute
semp
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see hlbly, i came to this country legally. as soon as I could, I enlisted in the us marines. I was not a citizen yet, and yet somehow I had these rights that you speak of. rights that you so cherish that you even imply that they must be only for the U.S. citizens. yet we have thousands of legal residents (and a few illegal, but that's another story) that have sworn to defend these rights that you so cherish, but you clearly point out that they dont have.
it's comments like yours that sometimes makes me question how truly people know the rights that they are "so proud to uphold".
semp
Two posts above the one I am quoting , I say there are others. Now as for your statement there hot rod. Do you know anything about Demore v Kim ? You might want to do a little research before you accuse me of not knowing what I talk about. Also a little research into the Patriot Act might clear up some of your misconceptions about who is protected by the Constitution. It is usually wise to know what you speak of before calling others ignorant. Bottom line is semp the Constitution is unclear about the subject. My personal opinion is that the Constitution protects God given rights. Anyone that is in a place where it is the supreme law of the land should enjoy that protection. That is my opinion , USSC holds a different one.
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As for myself I see dead and maimed soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guard, troops on the field of battle and/or trying to repair shattered lives after Protecting our freedoms and ridding the world of tyrants. I also see millions of men and woman who gave up many years of their prime to do the same if called upon. It doesnt matter if they were volunteers, if anything a volunteer service brings us back to the roots of American military service.
Anyway thats what I see when I see the Flag. Sacrifice! And its why I think there should be a criminal penalty for defacing it, and why nobody will ever change my mind.
I seek no understanding or middle ground with those who would harm the symbol of these sacrifices and I feel only contempt and anger at those who would do so. I'd rather see them sitting in a jail cell then appear on Oprah with them to discuss the matter.
As strongly as I felt about it before it has tripled since my own Boy has taken the oath. Thats why I Love Texas and San Antonio area. Now that is a state and a community that knows how to pay honor to the military family and the Constitution. :salute
Rich as i said I see things your way in the most part. We differ in the area that I refuse to ignore the things going wrong in our country. It is why I joined a group called Oath Keepers. I come from a family that has paid the price. At family reunion time the largest group is now the one filled with vets discussing the state of our government. Most of us are very concerned about the disregard of the Constitution by all three branches. The last thing I am going to say on this is, I swore to defend it not just the parts I like.
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Thanks guys I'm pretty damn proud of that guy. In fact the wife and I just got home from his house. He and his wife added to our growing grandchildren roll call with a little boy back in December.
So we were busy today doing the grandparent thing today. :aok
By the way that is one reason the photos of the honor guard and the Airman upset me so. Not just because of my son only, but all the wounded Soldiers and Marines I saw the eight weeks I spent down in San Antonio. I've never been prouder of our young people as I was watching all these young warriors overcome their wounds. Then to see our war dead and MIAs being treated with contempt through photos by current troops.. They deserve better than that. Being a 16 year USAF vet the Airman pisses me off the most. Again I cannot say enough good things about the people of San Antonio.
Very difficult photo for me to look at shifty. My own time at Ft. Sam Houston is some of the most difficult I have ever faced in my life. The five weeks my mother spent there with me. Is probably the biggest difference in my quality of life<pretty dam good>,and what it may have become. :salute to you your wife and son for all doing the right thing.
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Very difficult photo for me to look at shifty. My own time at Ft. Sam Houston is some of the most difficult I have ever faced in my life. The five weeks my mother spent there with me. Is probably the biggest difference in my quality of life<pretty dam good>,and what it may have become. :salute to you your wife and son for all doing the right thing.
Hlbly thank you for your sacrifice. :salute
I can never understand what you guys who are wounded go through. I can say I have never been as inspired in my life was I was being in the presence of guys like you for eight weeks. As for your Mother I do know how she feels. God Bless her and keep her for what she went through and probably in some ways still goes through emotionally. Thank God for the staffs of Brooke Army Medical Center and the Center for the Intrepid for the support they give all of us. Both the service members and their families that suddenly find themselves in an unthinkable situation. Again you have my utmost appreciation and respect.
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Hlbly thank you for your sacrifice. :salute
I can never understand what you guys who are wounded go through. I can say I have never been as inspired in my life was I was being in the presence of guys like you for eight weeks. As for your Mother I do know how she feels. God Bless her and keep her for what she went through and probably in some ways still goes through emotionally. Thank God for the staffs of Brooke Army Medical Center and the Center for the Intrepid for the support they give all of us. Both the service members and their families that suddenly find themselves in an unthinkable situation. Again you have my utmost appreciation and respect.
Mine was an injury. Not a wound. Big difference. The level of respect , obligation we have for them is/should be entirely different.
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Two posts above the one I am quoting , I say there are others. Now as for your statement there hot rod. Do you know anything about Demore v Kim ? You might want to do a little research before you accuse me of not knowing what I talk about. Also a little research into the Patriot Act might clear up some of your misconceptions about who is protected by the Constitution. It is usually wise to know what you speak of before calling others ignorant. Bottom line is semp the Constitution is unclear about the subject. My personal opinion is that the Constitution protects God given rights. Anyone that is in a place where it is the supreme law of the land should enjoy that protection. That is my opinion , USSC holds a different one.
hilbly dove into the ground and started to dig.
demore v kim is about a legal resident committing a crime and being deported. however up until he was deported (as it should have been for anybody that commits a crime) his constitutional rights were protected. including his right to a trial, right to an attorney... his constitutional rights were protected all the way to the supreme court.
so please do point out which of kim's rights were not protected under the constitution?
your personal opinion that the constitution protects god given rights is just that, your personal opinion. you are entitled to it under the constitution. just like under the constitution I am entitled to tell you that you are wrong.
semp
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wow semp......just....wow......
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My son Thomas in 2007 doing his rehab at Ft Sam Houston in San Antonio after being wounded in Iraq. The local community really does honor and show love for the military community especially the wounded warriors. He was always treated with diginity and respect when out in public. We'll always love and be grateful for the city of San Antonio in this family.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc42/Johnvan52/Thomas1.jpg)
Thank your son for his service a true hero... My son is at the bremerton naval hospital he's a corpsman doing rehab for alot of soldiers until he gets deployed.
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Mine was an injury. Not a wound. Big difference. The level of respect , obligation we have for them is/should be entirely different.
If you were injured in the line of duty, it is still the same to me.
Thank your son for his service a true hero... My son is at the bremerton naval hospital he's a corpsman doing rehab for alot of soldiers until he gets deployed.
Zoom all Corpsman and Combat Medics are heros in my book. If it wasn't for Medics/Corpsman a lot of guys enjoying their life at this moment wouldn't be here including my son.
So your son is a hero as well in my book. :salute
Time for a little humor here. A couple of weeks ago a show was on TV about near death experiances and how some people see a light or heaven or hell. After the IED Thomas coded out three times and was brought back three times. So the following weekend when I saw him I asked him if he had a near death experiance when he was wounded. His answer "Hell yeah it was a near death experiance. I died three times dummy" :lol
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If you were injured in the line of duty, it is still the same to me.
Zoom all Corpsman and Combat Medics are heros in my book. If it wasn't for Medics/Corpsman a lot of guys enjoying their life at this moment wouldn't be here including my son.
So your son is a hero as well in my book. :salute
Time for a little humor here. A couple of weeks ago a show was on TV about near death experiances and how some people see a light or heaven or hell. After the IED Thomas coded out three times and was brought back three times. So the following weekend when I saw him I asked him if he had a near death experiance when he was wounded. His answer "Hell yeah it was a near death experiance. I died three times dummy" :lol
That is one tough as nails son you've got there, Shifty. :aok
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That is one tough as nails son you've got there, Shifty. :aok
Thanks he's just one of the many I got to witness. They're all over the place. Some of them got to return to duty and are back out there now.
I can't help but think of all the guys that fought and bled in Vietnam and didnt get any of the recognition this generation of warriors has recieved.
Again that is why these pictures anger me so. Nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, but that uniform means something. When you
put it on you're representing all before you and that will come after you. If you have to do something stupid and we all do at times.. Don't do it in
uniform.
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Thanks he's just one of the many I got to witness. They're all over the place. Some of them got to return to duty and are back out there now.
I can't help but think of all the guys that fought and bled in Vietnam and didnt get any of the recognition this generation of warriors has recieved.
Again that is why these pictures anger me so. Nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, but that uniform means something. When you
put it on you're representing all before you and that will come after you. If you have to do something stupid and we all do at times.. Don't do it in
uniform.
Roger that, Chief! You are spot on. Put the uniform on and you represent thousands who defined honor before and after your time. :salute
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That is one tough as nails son you've got there, Shifty.
He takes after his father. Glad to hear he's doing well, dude, say "congrats" for me.
- oldman
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hilbly dove into the ground and started to dig.
demore v kim is about a legal resident committing a crime and being deported. however up until he was deported (as it should have been for anybody that commits a crime) his constitutional rights were protected. including his right to a trial, right to an attorney... his constitutional rights were protected all the way to the supreme court.
so please do point out which of kim's rights were not protected under the constitution?
your personal opinion that the constitution protects god given rights is just that, your personal opinion. you are entitled to it under the constitution. just like under the constitution I am entitled to tell you that you are wrong.
semp
(http://i.imgur.com/PSl5Ir8.gif)
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hilbly dove into the ground and started to dig.
demore v kim is about a legal resident committing a crime and being deported. however up until he was deported (as it should have been for anybody that commits a crime) his constitutional rights were protected. including his right to a trial, right to an attorney... his constitutional rights were protected all the way to the supreme court.
so please do point out which of kim's rights were not protected under the constitution?
your personal opinion that the constitution protects god given rights is just that, your personal opinion. you are entitled to it under the constitution. just like under the constitution I am entitled to tell you that you are wrong.
semp
The Rights protected under the Constitution are the rights the colonies believed every free man should have. The constitution is an attempt by man to "legalize" those rights. And, btw, the first ten amendments are known as the Bill of Rights, not the constitution. The Declaration of Independence started the process...to understand one, you must understand the other.
As defined by noted by the Constitutional Rights Foundation and the primary document used to forge the Constitution.
"The members of the Continental Congress made only two minor changes in the opening paragraphs of Jefferson's draft declaration. In these two paragraphs, Jefferson developed some key ideas: "all men are created equal," "inalienable rights," "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Where did Jefferson get these ideas?
Jefferson was a man of the Enlightenment. This was the period during the 17th and 18th centuries when thinkers turned to reason and science to explain both the physical universe and human behavior. Those like Jefferson thought that by discovering the "laws of nature" humanity could be improved.
Jefferson did not invent the ideas that he used to justify the American Revolution. He himself said that he had adopted the "harmonizing sentiments of the day." These ideas were, so to speak, "in the air" at the time.
As a man of the Enlightenment, Jefferson was well acquainted with British history and political philosophy. He also had read the statements of independence drafted by Virginia and other colonies as well as the writings of fellow revolutionaries like Tom Paine and George Mason. In composing the declaration, Jefferson followed the format of the English Declaration of Rights, written after the Glorious Revolution of 1689.
Most scholars today believe that Jefferson derived the most famous ideas in the Declaration of Independence from the writings of English philosopher John Locke. Locke wrote his Second Treatise of Government in 1689 at the time of England's Glorious Revolution, which overthrew the rule of James II.
Locke wrote that all individuals are equal in the sense that they are born with certain "inalienable" natural rights. That is, rights that are God-given and can never be taken or even given away. Among these fundamental natural rights, Locke said, are "life, liberty, and property."
Locke believed that the most basic human law of nature is the preservation of mankind. To serve that purpose, he reasoned, individuals have both a right and a duty to preserve their own lives. Murderers, however, forfeit their right to life since they act outside the law of reason.
Locke also argued that individuals should be free to make choices about how to conduct their own lives as long as they do not interfere with the liberty of others. Locke therefore believed liberty should be far-reaching.
By "property," Locke meant more than land and goods that could be sold, given away, or even confiscated by the government under certain circumstances. Property also referred to ownership of one's self, which included a right to personal well being. Jefferson, however, substituted the phrase, "pursuit of happiness," which Locke and others had used to describe freedom of opportunity as well as the duty to help those in want.
The purpose of government, Locke wrote, is to secure and protect the God-given inalienable natural rights of the people. For their part, the people must obey the laws of their rulers. Thus, a sort of contract exists between the rulers and the ruled. But, Locke concluded, if a government persecutes its people with "a long train of abuses" over an extended period, the people have the right to resist that government, alter or abolish it, and create a new political system.
Jefferson adopted John Locke's theory of natural rights to provide a reason for revolution. He then went on to offer proof that revolution was necessary in 1776 to end King George's tyranny over the colonists."
Semp, its ok if you're an atheist but man defined freedom by what they believed at the time to be inalienable rights God gives every man
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Semp, its ok if you're an atheist but man defined freedom by what they believed at the time to be inalienable rights God gives every man
I am not an atheist.
but the main point was to question hilbly's idea that constitutional rights only apply to U.S. citizens. anybody that is the united states is entitled to most constitutional rights and some to all (citizens born or naturalized). be it a citizen, legal resident, visitor or illegal alien. like it or not, that's how it is.
like you yourself mentioned "all men are created equal" and thus are protected under the constitution unless specifically excluded from it. whether they deserve to live in the united states, well that's a different story.
semp
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like you yourself mentioned "all men are created equal" and thus are protected under the constitution unless specifically excluded from it. whether they deserve to live in the united states, well that's a different story.
semp
And I was pointing out that men are born free (God if you will) and governments, despots, etc take their freedoms away.
You said God didn't give freedom, the Constitution did. The way I see it, God gave men freedoms and the constitution protects those freedoms. Big difference.
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True freedom is known as anarchy.
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i've seen dumber stunts but that was back before the retardnet and social stupidity. it's a clear sign of the times, a lot of poor decisions and choices being displayed for all the world to see.
People have been doing the same stupid things for the same stupid reasons since the dawn of time. The only difference is that now everybody and their mother carries a cell phone equipped with internet access and a video camera. These things aren't new, you're just seeing them for the first time.
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True freedom is known as anarchy.
Anarchy is for children acting out...unskilled orators who believe in some rebellious nobility. It's ignorance.
"There is no greater evil than anarchy"
Sophocles
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People have been doing the same stupid things for the same stupid reasons since the dawn of time. The only difference is that now everybody and their mother carries a cell phone equipped with internet access and a video camera. These things aren't new, you're just seeing them for the first time.
Yes this^^^^^^^^^
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Mere presence in the country is not all that is required to exercise the rights of the citizens. Voting is the easiest one to point out that is a right not granted to a person wh merely inhabits the interior boundaries of the country. Most rights are accorded to noncitizens however as long as they comply with the rules and law of the land including immigation.
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And I was pointing out that men are born free (God if you will) and governments, despots, etc take their freedoms away.
You said God didn't give freedom, the Constitution did. The way I see it, God gave men freedoms and the constitution protects those freedoms. Big difference.
perhaps it's a difference of opinion. I can think of several freedoms that god gives you that arent guaranteed by the constitution. for example "rest on the sabbath". if i refuse to work on the sabbath as I have the right to do, I will get fired because no law in the constitution protects me.
so all the freedoms (and obligations) that I have are only those guaranteed by the constitution. do you give 10% of your earnings? the law coming from above says you must. but the constitution doesnt say you do. so a lot of us just contribute as we wish.
anyway we can argue for years about this and that and the only agreement we will come up with is that you believe in the constitution your way and I on my way. but the only way that really matters is the way the supreme court interprets it.
semp
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perhaps it's a difference of opinion. I can think of several freedoms that god gives you that arent guaranteed by the constitution. for example "rest on the sabbath". if i refuse to work on the sabbath as I have the right to do, I will get fired because no law in the constitution protects me.
so all the freedoms (and obligations) that I have are only those guaranteed by the constitution. do you give 10% of your earnings? the law coming from above says you must. but the constitution doesnt say you do. so a lot of us just contribute as we wish.
anyway we can argue for years about this and that and the only agreement we will come up with is that you believe in the constitution your way and I on my way. but the only way that really matters is the way the supreme court interprets it.
semp
1. You are FREE to quit that job to find one that will allow you to take the sabbath off.
2. You are FREE to tithe your 10% or NOT to tithe your 10% (that isn't a freedom, that's a biblical law anyway)
3. I believe exactly like you believe regarding the constitution. I simply believe itprotect the rights you should already have. It doesn't give you any new ones except due process.
Hell, there is a law on the books in MS that specifically says you must face your partner during sex. That isn't a violation of any of your constitutional rights is it? Well, yes it is depending on how your lawyer defines "Blessings of Liberty" and the illegal search and seizure laws, lmao!