Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Lusche on December 29, 2014, 02:17:07 PM
-
Once again there was a debate on 200 about the 'overmodeled' Brewster, and how it's one of the most dangerous fighters in the game.
This was backed up with anecdotes, for example how "A Brewster kept up with my Pony at 400mph for 3/4 of a sector"
Time to revisit this topic and do another test:
Setup: P-51D vs Brewster, both planes at 50% fuel (fuel burn 0). Both planes dive to the deck (approx. 750ft) and level out. Measurement begins at both planes v=448mph
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/ponybrewspeed_zps453e8e22.jpg)
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/ponybrewcover_zps214ddc6b.jpg)
And finally, the distance between both fighters:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/ponybrewlead_zpsf8321e7c.jpg)
After 3/4 of a sector (as per anecdote) the Pony was over 7k yards ahead of the Brewster, the latter one being unable to keep up for such a distance as depicted in the aforementioned anecdote.
-
I think the bottom chart is the story for most complaints. It would take 20 seconds to extend out of gun range. 20 sec with a bandit on your six o'clock seems like an eternity.
Thanks for the Data Snailman. <S>
*for the record, I'm not the one that said it chanced me for 3/4 of a sector.
-
I think the bottom chart is the story for most complaints. It would take 20 seconds to extend out of gun range. 20 sec with a bandit on your six o'clock seems like an eternity.
It's plenty of time to die before you get out of gun range, that's for sure.
However, I have the feeling many people have the unrealistic expectation the Brewster should decelerate like hitting a brick wall. and the Pony zoomin away like a F-15 on afterburner.
Everything less than that is "overmodeled", even though the Brewster actually decelerates very rapidly from high speeds (12% speed loss during the first 10 seconds compared to the P-51D's 4%)
Oh, and for my own record: Of course it still may be the B-239 is actually over- or mismodeled. I don't have enough knowledge to say. I just know that theres an amazing amount of exaggerations on the AH performance of this 'magical' fighter out there.
Thanks for the Data Snailman. <S>
My pleasure.
Not my wife's, who raised an eyebrow as I once more was doing that nerd stuff during dinner time :uhoh
-
Yeah, but you were using your shadez account when you did the test!
Haxxorz!
:noid :furious :noid
-
its needs to be fixed now :furious
-
There are some ACM techniques that can leave a turny bird out of gun range during that eternity or equivalent (dead). Some work on even the best pilots though not all equally. ACM methods per plane differ (different opportunities that is in diff planes).
If you see me on-line just PM me and I'd show you a few of my favs.
Slade :salute
-
I have found that players in general have exaggerated expectations when it comes to diving away.
I recall reading the performance comparison between the P-47 and a captured A6M wherein the P-47 was found to be able to dive away from the A6M as an escape. Players imagine that to mean the P-47 would be thousands of yards away, but in the test it gained something in the range of 200 to 400 yards of separation on the A6M by the pullout. The P-47, or other fast fighter, could escape that way, but it was not, as you say, acting like a F-15 on afterburners. We are, in the end, talking about two roughly contemporary prop driven fighters.
-
I tested a few more planes in the same manner. For ease of comparison I changed the presentation format:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/deceleration_zpsf596b25f.jpg)
As you can see, the Brewster is in the same class as similar EW planes like the A6M and F4F, but is actually performing even worse. It's a mystery to me why the AH Brewster has such an extremely exaggerated reputation in this respect. It's not anyhwere near other typical LW planes.
It's very similar to the stuff that was happening when the Spitfire 16 or the Sherman VC were introduced to AH.
-
You should've been here for the n1k2 whines.
-
You should've been here for the n1k2 whines.
True, true. Helicopter plane.
- oldman
-
I believe you posted the brewster's K/d ratio at some point. Mind tossing that up here as well?
-
I believe you posted the brewster's K/d ratio at some point. Mind tossing that up here as well?
The true A2A k/d is 0.75 in this year so far, which is one of the lowest of all fighters.
It's also the reason for this little chart I posted some time ago:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/topkillvic_zps5881b6f3.jpg)
-
Whats interesting is that for me, something made it seem like the Brewster held speed better than expected when fighting it. Not sure what causes that impression, but I had the same experience others did when it came out. More than once I would be in a furball and ignore the Brewster that just went by because with the E he had compared to mine, he would lose too much turning onto my 6 to be an issue. Then I look back and there he is in gun range and not falling back as quickly as expected.
There was something about it that gave the impression that it held speed better than expected. Not saying it does, just saying that I experienced the same impression that many others brought up. I don't see it anymore now that its been in game a while. I assume the only thing thats changed are my expectations and perception.
I don't doubt the numbers above are accurate in any way, but I do think the myth came about from players honest perception. I really don't know why that is, but I experienced it as well.
-
The true A2A k/d is 0.75 in this year so far, which is one of the lowest of all fighters.
That says a lot more of how it is used than its performance. Brewsters (the ones I see anyway) are mostly used in base defense at 0 alt. No plane will get any impressive statistics from such usage that places it nearly the entire time in defensive flying. The Zekes are used a lot from carriers on offence which improves their chances of survival and getting kills.
The problem with diving away from Brewster is that unlike the zeke, it can reach higher speeds. As long as my speed is close to 300 mph and I have a bit of air under me, I do not fear high zekes - I can easily push them out of their envelope and all they'll achieve by diving on me will be to blow away their E. Brewsters on the other hand will hang in longer in the dive and since they will often start faster then me, the time it takes to accelerate and pull away will give them the opportunity for some shots. Also, it means that if I am not high enough AGL to hit my speed limit, my speed excess at the bottom will not be very high and pulling away will take longer. This makes one feel like the Brew holds E much better than the zeke for example.
-
Is there anyone who knows a very successful Brewster pilot in our game who you can Q&A in this post? Might be interesting to hear from the Brewster side what those pilots perceive. Aspen has a very good point in his observation about E and ignoring the Brewster to his detriment. I used to get caught by that also. Though it could simply be we are getting a reality check on how slow we are really going versus how the Brewster started it's path toward us.
I flew one once to see if it was a secret pocket rocket. The closest plane we have to what it does very well is the Yak3's instant 3k rocket up once it hits 300TA. The Brewster needed a shallow dive, and then it went up like a tiny rocket for almost 3k. At the top if you didn't bleed off too much speed, you could still save yourself with it's turn ability or use another quick dive to gain just enough distance for maneuvering. All three of my kills happened by popping up under the poor distracted uber ride that was ignoring me.
When watching furballs from above, I see the more successful Brewsters working the vertical while saving the horizontal for after sucking in an uber ride.
-
That says a lot more of how it is used than its performance. Brewsters (the ones I see anyway) are mostly used in base defense at 0 alt. No plane will get any impressive statistics from such usage that places it nearly the entire time in defensive flying. The Zekes are used a lot from carriers on offence which improves their chances of survival and getting kills.
I observe the Brew being used in very similar situations the Spit 16 or La-7 are being found (and formerly the Hurri II had been), short range defensive work and 'furballing'.
Of course, unlike those two the Brewster pilot has to build up his energy first by climbing, compared to those two (but also other planes like the A6M) it's level acceleration and climb rate leaves a lot to be desired.
I also don't find it that much different from for example the F4F, which is very capable a dive and also can stay quite well on an enemy's tail long enough for a kill. But my experience in both is rather limited (I actually prefer the I-16 a lot over the Brew).
I think the main reason for a lot of the clearly exaggerated statements about the AH Brewster is the difference of players expectations based on the reputation of the 'Brewster' (based on very little actual knowledge) and it's thus 'surprising' AH performance.
And this is what was similar when the Sherman VC was introduced. Players by large only knew from countless TV shows that "the Sherman" sucked and that it "took 5 Shermans to kill a Tiger with only one returning". I remember very well it was almost impossible to make people understand that ours a different Sherman with a British high velocity anti tank gun on par with the Panther's 75mm.
Is there anyone who knows a very successful Brewster pilot in our game who you can Q&A in this post? Might be interesting to hear from the Brewster side what those pilots perceive. Aspen has a very good point in his observation about E and ignoring the Brewster to his detriment. I used to get caught by that also. Though it could simply be we are getting a reality check on how slow we are really going versus how the Brewster started it's path toward us
I tested the energy holding capabilities in level flight (which are abysmal). A similar test could be made about holding E in a turn, though I would prefer someone else than me conducting such a test who's able to fly more precisely than I am.
My guess is that here it also isn't much better than similar planes, but controlled beats perception & guesswork ;)
-
Forgot to thank you Lusche for taking the time and effort to run the tests and present them in a clear manner. So thank you! :)
The results weren't surprising in any way though. ;)
-
Just start a high speed climb. Get the Buffalo's nose up just a little bit and you'll walk away from it in just about anything. Other than something really similar like a Wildcat.
Bet there would be an even greater difference if the test was, same dive to the deck then start a 500fpm climb.
-
PERK THE BREWSTER!!!
:angel: weaker
the cd for the Brewster is much lower than some might expect.
-
Few know this, but the F8F Bearcat is just a Brewster run on higher-octane fuel. That was the only change (well, that, and a different paint job).
-
Few know this, but the F8F Bearcat is just a Brewster run on higher-octane fuel. That was the only change (well, that, and a different paint job).
Nonsense. The canopy is completely new.
-
Remember it's only overmodelled if it's a plane you don't like.
-
On a more serious note, if it holds E better it's probably because it's not as near it's critical AOA as you are.
-
The Brewster have excellent high speed performance. Above 400 its handles better than both spit and 109. Of course u cannot stay in that speed area for long. A Brewster never compress or fall apart during any kind of dive seen during normal conditions and its really fun to just go in a vertical dive and zoom down on a con and force him to start turning so he bleed off speed until u have him low and slow. Its hard to time dough, its easy to misjudge the timing, allowing the con to just walk away.
The Brewster's main assets, besides low speed handling, is excellent roll rate up to around 450 mph so a diving Brewster is something that should be treated with respect. It also have a fairly good climb rate so its not a problem to take the Brew up to 10-12k (best speed band is at 18k so it can handle mid alt decently)
But to be honest, no one is getting killed by a Brewster in a pony unless they screw up.
-
The problem with diving away from Brewster is that unlike the zeke, it can reach higher speeds. As long as my speed is close to 300 mph and I have a bit of air under me, I do not fear high zekes - I can easily push them out of their envelope and all they'll achieve by diving on me will be to blow away their E. Brewsters on the other hand will hang in longer in the dive and since they will often start faster then me, the time it takes to accelerate and pull away will give them the opportunity for some shots. Also, it means that if I am not high enough AGL to hit my speed limit, my speed excess at the bottom will not be very high and pulling away will take longer. This makes one feel like the Brew holds E much better than the zeke for example.
I agree with you about Zekes and would like to add another difference that most know (I assume). Not only will the Brewster out dive a zeke, but retains good roll authority, unlike the zeke. Once you dive to say 400+ in say a P-47, I can roll and change direction where the zeke cannot. The Brewster can and stay with you.
-
the 'overmodeled' Brewster
I think many times when I encounter a Brew the pilot simply has significantly more E than me. The Brews acquisition\retention of the E is nothing magical. A lot of Brew pilots come in from orbit I noticed. I do that many times when using a Brew (coming in from orbit). Scary being a low slow piece of meat ya know!
Some of the skewed perceptions may be as simple as this to explain.
Lusche great stats as always! :aok
-
Brewster is still easy mode :aok
-
Hello junkyii still on the island?
-
The true A2A k/d is 0.75 in this year so far, which is one of the lowest of all fighters.
It's also the reason for this little chart I posted some time ago:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/topkillvic_zps5881b6f3.jpg)
that is a clear indication of how the MA thinks now a days.... :uhoh
I wonder if the results would be different say the tour I started..... 52...
would there be a "turny" bird in the top ten...1 at least....for some reason I dont think so. :noid
-
Who is this guy ^^^^^
-
would there be a "turny" bird in the top ten...1 at least....for some reason I dont think so. :noid
In 2004 the "top 10 killers" by that measurement (k-d) were
La-7
Fw 190D-9
Typhoon IB
F4U-1C
N1K2
Bf 109K-4
Me 262
Spitfire Mk IX
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-5
-
damn that was quick
and look at that...2 certified turny birds.... :D
Who is this guy ^^^^^
:neener:
-
How about testing a brewster vs a mustang in which the test involves a quick 180 at the edge of blackout and then record the mph of both?
-
Hello junkyii still on the island?
Yes sir, until November then I'm going to Fort Home :)
-
Done done?
I will decide this summer whether or not to retire.
Headed to Kuwait.... again... in less than a year.
-
Just had an interessting 1vs1 in a Brew vs a F4U-4. I had more alt on him at the beginning so i could dive on him and get on his 6. He pulled up in a rope and i followed him up, roughly the same speed initialy. He ended up about 600 yards above me but i got enough hits on him to hurt him bad. A top ace would prob have came down and killed me but on the other hand it showed that not even a U-4 is safe against a Brewster in a rope if they have the same speed to start with, The U-4 will get about 2000ft higher but that migh not be enough to prevent the Brewster from landing hits on u.
If its done over time im sure the -U4 will end up as a winner far more often than the Brew but the U-4 is not invincible and will get shot down sometimes.
-
Just had an interessting 1vs1 in a Brew vs a F4U-4. I had more alt on him at the beginning so i could dive on him and get on his 6. He pulled up in a rope and i followed him up, roughly the same speed initialy. He ended up about 600 yards above me but i got enough hits on him to hurt him bad. A top ace would prob have came down and killed me but on the other hand it showed that not even a U-4 is safe against a Brewster in a rope if they have the same speed to start with, The U-4 will get about 2000ft higher but that migh not be enough to prevent the Brewster from landing hits on u.
If its done over time im sure the -U4 will end up as a winner far more often than the Brew but the U-4 is not invincible and will get shot down sometimes.
you ran out of airspeed following this Brewster up?
-
No. My brewster ran out of speed followin the F4U up, but not before i shot him up.
-
No. My brewster ran out of speed followin the F4U up, but not before i shot him up.
F4U's have tail guns that I'm not aware of?
-
No. My brewster ran out of speed followin the F4U up, but not before i shot him up.
:rofl
this reminds me of my days flying the Hurri2c...
I killed some BnZer he types out on 200
"no way a Hurri can climb like that"
I said..."no....... but my quad 20's can" :rofl
-
Until I'm 1000 above a Brewster in a climb, spiral or straight. I sweat bullets. The BB dispersion at 800 is still small enough to cover a spit8 between the gun mountings in the wings. And Brewster pilots don't seem shy holding down on the trigger out to 800. The Brewster's guns are magical at pilot wounds and oil hits.
-
No. My brewster ran out of speed followin the F4U up, but not before i shot him up.
F4U's have tail guns that I'm not aware of?
:bhead
-
I think a few people got killed by Brewster's by putting themselves in bad situations and the sheer fact that such an inferior bird killed THEM is proof enough the Brew is over modeled. :uhoh
The lesson learned is dont underestimate, like the Soviets did, what a agile bird with 4 0.50s, that can dive like a demon and then reconvert its energy, can do. A lightweight agile Buffalo? Why didnt we Yanks think of it? :D
-
I think a few people got killed by Brewster's by putting themselves in bad situations and the sheer fact that such an inferior bird killed THEM is proof enough the Brew is over modeled. :uhoh
The lesson learned is dont underestimate, like the Soviets did, what a agile bird with 4 0.50s, that can dive like a demon and then reconvert its energy, can do. A lightweight agile Buffalo? Why didnt we Yanks think of it? :D
Absolutley, people belive that the can get away with anyhing aginst a plane like the Brewster. People must learn that a diving Brewster can be very dangerous until its speed has run out. Below 250 mph the Brewster bleeds of less energy in turns compare to most other planes thanks to the low wing loading and in extreme cases, like chasing a slow and turning pony or jug, u need to reduce throttle to avoid an overshoot.
If u want to beat a Brewster, just dont fight on his terms, or fly a Zeke.
-
Absolutley, people belive that the can get away with anyhing aginst a plane like the Brewster. People must learn that a diving Brewster can be very dangerous until its speed has run out. Below 250 mph the Brewster bleeds of less energy in turns compare to most other planes thanks to the low wing loading and in extreme cases, like chasing a slow and turning pony or jug, u need to reduce throttle to avoid an overshoot.
If u want to beat a Brewster, just dont fight on his terms, or fly a Zeke.
It doesn't bleed less energy, like the Zeke it just needs less energy to turn well.
-
:bhead
Yep. I read that wrong. Thought he was in the F4U. Oops.
-
Yep. I read that wrong. Thought he was in the F4U. Oops.
:aok
-
Within its favorite speed range the Brew, like the Wildcat, can really surprise you. And if you cant accelerate fast enough, or they have enough air under them, these old birds can give you a nasty surprise. Plus they are tough and the Brew at least is very responsive to the stick. I dont underestimate them when I see them cause very likely there is someone in them who knows what they are doing.
I like upping them in CV battles up to 5K and trying to avoid the deck with them.
-
I agree with that Rich. Also, you should give the Ki43 a whirl for a dozen hops or so if you haven't. IMO it's the plane capable of surprising folks the most, hands down, and that includes Brewster pilots. I haven't lost to one yet in the Ki43 in a 1 or even 2 or 3 on one fight. Brews, since they almost always go for a turn type fight - exactly what a Ki43 pilot would want - can absolutely demolish the Brew, it's fun to do, and watch. I would say nobody is going to be posting or asking about "how the Ki43 keeps up to that P51 or whatever" like they do with the Brew, the Achilles heel of the 43 is putting the nose down, over 350 it's adios both elevators or ailerons, and a funny film of rolling around trying to get it home without those vators.
-
Ki-43 is a fun bird but much more limited than the Brew. A Brew low and slow with a Ki-43 is doomed because it cant even run away. With some alt dough, the Brew have a lot more tools to use. But the Ki-43 is faster and down on the deck it will have all advantages.
But other than the Ki-43 i dont see a problem with engaging in a turn fight with almost all other birds while in a Brew, A6M2 might be an exception but an A6M5 isnt so superior in turn rate that u cannot beat it.
-
Ive been meaning to spend some time in the KI-43. Thing is I have such limited time to play and its so damn hard finding quality fights. Most of the time your at one end of a picking contest. I often up on defense with all kinds of energy fighters 10K over me. How that is fun for them I dont know. I do know when a fight is close to equal the KI-84 is pretty amazing. I had a good 2 on 1 vs a N1K and 84 yesterday and of course had to dodge pickers.
Im going to start only looking for CV fights and stop bombing the things. It seems the only places nowdays to find fights where "E" is equal. I want to spend more time in Zero-san as well.
-
Im going to start only looking for CV fights and stop bombing the things. It seems the only places nowdays to find fights where "E" is equal. I want to spend more time in Zero-san as well.
Why not just ask people to duel?
-
It doesn't bleed less energy, like the Zeke it just needs less energy to turn well.
Forgot to reply earlier.
Wrong. A very good turn fighter loose less energy than a bad one if they do a turn at same speed and G-loading. its because the good turn fighter has a lower wing loading and can do the turn at a lower AoA. This means it will have a lot less drag.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/NewAircraft.gif)
For ex: The A6m2 can do a 3G turn at 150mph and gain E while an I-16 doing the same turn will loose E.
-
Is it losing less or gaining more? :D
The bigger factor is the Zeke having a higher specific excess power below 250mph.
-
Gain. Since it will have the ability to accelerate during that turn it can gain E.
-
But back to the point: A pony w full flaps and 25% fuel has a sustained turn rate at about 17dps at 125mph. This means that it will not only be outturned massivley by a clean Brewster, the Brewster can sustsain a 24dps turn at 130 mph - The Brewster is faster than the pony.
It all come down to the fact that as the speed goes down the Brewster (or zeke) first will bleed of less E than the pony in the turn and as the speed drops even more, maintain or even gain E when the Pony still bleeding of his. And still be able to outturn the Pony.
-
You already agreed it's not losing less it's gaining more. :aok
Semantics. Losing implies drag, gaining implies thrust.
-
Zimme.. where did you pull that diagram from?
atlau
-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=270762.0
Zimme.. where did you pull that diagram from?
atlau
You already agreed it's not losing less it's gaining more. :aok
Semantics. Losing implies drag, gaining implies thrust.
Loosing means that the amount of alt and/or speed is decreasing, gaining means alt and/or speed is increasing. Depends on where on the diagram u are if u loosing, maintaining or gaining E. But yes - its about thrust-to-drag ratio. Just depends on how u want to say it. A Brewster has a lot less thrust than a Pony but in this case the thrust to drag ratio is better for the Brewster. Lower AoA = lower drag = Better E managment.
-
Higher specific excess power = more available g = better turn.
We agree on the result at least. :aok
-
Absolutley. that diagram have improved my score with like 100%, Its not really about turning as tight as u can, it is about turning just tight enough.
-
Would be interesting putting in more planes into that nice energy manoeuvrability graph.
-
Is a few out:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/AH2-Spits.jpg)
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/F4U1D%20v%20Fw190A5%20.jpg)
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/P-47D11wepflapsv109G6podswepflapsSL.jpg)
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/AH2%20P51DvP47D25SLFLAPS.jpg)
-
I've seen those maneuverability plots before but I don't understand how to read them. Can someone explain? I understand the outside curve, the one that hits a sustained 6g turn, but what is the inside curve (for example for the Spit IX that shows about 20 dps at 200 mph)? Is the outside (higher) curve the instantaneous turn rate the the inside (lower) the sustained?
-
Correct 715. :old:
-
I've seen those maneuverability plots before but I don't understand how to read them. Can someone explain? I understand the outside curve, the one that hits a sustained 6g turn, but what is the inside curve (for example for the Spit IX that shows about 20 dps at 200 mph)? Is the outside (higher) curve the instantaneous turn rate the the inside (lower) the sustained?
The lower line is the PS=0 line. It's the combination of speed and g where you don't speed up or slow down because thrust equals drag. It's useful to know because you can gain speed or altitude while turning below the PS=0 line.