Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Drano on March 04, 2015, 12:41:01 PM
Stupid Gamilons got out in front of that wave motion gun every time! Like the uber tater from hell.
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Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 04, 2015, 02:04:22 PM
I laughed at that Twitter comment too, I was going to post a meme/pic of that right up until I saw the comment.
Paul Allen is such a great person when it comes to WW2 history, and funding teams of researchers and whatnot. His plane collection and all those guys he employs for that is great, but I've read he spent millions to add the highest tech sonar and RPV/drone tech to outfit his yacht and hire the best researchers and people to look for Musashi. It's something seeing that chrysanthemum on the bow after all these years.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 04, 2015, 03:00:21 PM
Yeah its great that it was found. Yet we cant alter the History behind her even if the BB era she represented was romantic and exciting. The Musashi was probably the biggest waste of high grade steel in Military History and the Yamato wasnt much better.
They were built for a different war. And built during the period the IJN was creating a different way to fight Pacific war's, one where BBs lost much relevance. Most of all for nations with only limited resources planning on an Empire with a huge periphery that realistically could only be protected by sea and land based air power.
Yet they provided the resources to build these behemoths. These werent BBs laid down between wars but they were laid down in the late '30s. Well I guess the IJN wasnt alone. Other nations were laying down super BBs in the '30s too. But the AA of the Yamato class just sucked. Even after it was improved it sucked. The fire control and radars left much to be desired.
But they were beautiful. I recommend the Japanese made movie "Yamato" to every WW2 Buff.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 04, 2015, 04:57:44 PM
Ya, you have to wonder what the theory was behind building them. Japan focused a lot on their carrier/naval aviation. Obviously, the were the first ones to really use it to great affect, and if they had caught the US carriers in Pearl, the war would have taken another year two, heck, the Japanese could have invaded Pearl possibly, who knows.
My point is, how could they not realize that spending so much on 2 huge battleships was a little futile when they themselves were architects of naval air power at the start, surely they should have known that a single CV of their own would massively over match their own super capitol battleships so long as they didn't get within gun range, some 30 odd miles or whatever. Odd. Perhaps they were just in love with surface gun wagons, they did well enough with their cruisers, had some pretty successful gun battles with US ships especially at night, but that was years after they laid down the hulls for the 2 super ships. I would say that they started building them before anyone had seen what naval air power was truly capable of, that's part of it IMO.
However the comments about AA are true enough, the US learned its lessons and if you look at AA armament on ships in 41 and compare them to 45, there is a massive difference, the USN even purposely built large ships that were dedicated AA platforms.
I'll bet when the Japanese used planes vs Prince of Wales and company, they saw the writing on the wall for their own large warships, so far as using them in an offensive role without air superiority.
Funny how history repeated itself later, in some ways. The USSR built some large battlecruisers but never had any CV capable of launching more than crappy vstolv aircraft until late in the game, and then they only had...few, and they in turn had few aircraft that had crappy range. At least a war didn't happen to reprove the issue then.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Slash27 on March 04, 2015, 05:31:59 PM
We got some good mileage out of the Iowa class.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 04, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
Agree, but look what the USN did with it compared to say the Soviets with their Kirov class. Primarily, and this was my previous point, the USN would have been very capable of maintaining air superiority over the Iowa class ships, the Soviets, not so much. The guns had the ability to fire ship killing laser guided rounds, and had that little drone, one of the first uses of military drones back in the 80s for targeting the gun rounds vs either ships or land based targets. Keeping them around wasn't a bad idea because the CVNs and CVs existed - had they not, the Iowa would be just another target like the Yamato and Musashi.
Since the USN did have the ability to protect the Iowa class from aircraft, they were great ships, as they were tough (probably could have ate some bombs, certainly anti ship missiles of the day, and survived, even continued to fight), held a wide variety of different armament (piles of Harpoons, Tomahawks, 5" guns, and of course the main armament attitude adjusters). I wish they were still available, great at so many things, except being cheap to man and operate.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 04, 2015, 06:50:49 PM
Ya, you have to wonder what the theory was behind building them. Japan focused a lot on their carrier/naval aviation. Obviously, the were the first ones to really use it to great affect, and if they had caught the US carriers in Pearl, the war would have taken another year two, heck, the Japanese could have invaded Pearl possibly, who knows.
My point is, how could they not realize that spending so much on 2 huge battleships was a little futile when they themselves were architects of naval air power at the start, surely they should have known that a single CV of their own would massively over match their own super capitol battleships so long as they didn't get within gun range, some 30 odd miles or whatever. Odd. Perhaps they were just in love with surface gun wagons, they did well enough with their cruisers, had some pretty successful gun battles with US ships especially at night, but that was years after they laid down the hulls for the 2 super ships. I would say that they started building them before anyone had seen what naval air power was truly capable of, that's part of it IMO.
However the comments about AA are true enough, the US learned its lessons and if you look at AA armament on ships in 41 and compare them to 45, there is a massive difference, the USN even purposely built large ships that were dedicated AA platforms.
I'll bet when the Japanese used planes vs Prince of Wales and company, they saw the writing on the wall for their own large warships, so far as using them in an offensive role without air superiority.
Funny how history repeated itself later, in some ways. The USSR built some large battlecruisers but never had any CV capable of launching more than crappy vstolv aircraft until late in the game, and then they only had...few, and they in turn had few aircraft that had crappy range. At least a war didn't happen to reprove the issue then.
The reasons for building the Yamato and Musashi were rather simple ones and the reason why most navies at the time still invested in building battleships. For the projection of that nation's power. When the military expansionists gained power in Japan, they withdrew from the League of Nations and also renounced all treaty obligations, which meant they were now free to build ships larger than they were restricted to by the Washington Naval Treaty. To protect their conquests, they needed to field ships that would allow them to project their power and at the same time intimidate any potential adversary.
As for the resources, the IJN actually felt they were saving resources in building these ships. The main adversary the Japanese felt they'd face in war was the US, so they started to build their ships that were individually superior to their USN counter-parts. Their battleships were designed to engage multiple targets, getting rid of the need to spend as much industrial effort as the US on building battleships.
Also remember that the Japanese did not expect to fight a protracted general war, they honestly believed they'd only be engaged in a short war lasting 6 months, or shorter.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 04, 2015, 06:54:36 PM
Quote
Also remember that the Japanese did not expect to fight a protracted general war, they honestly believed they'd only be engaged in a short war lasting 6 months, or shorter.
Very true, Yamamoto was one of very few of their leadership that didn't believe this. He lived in the USA, many others hadn't seen first hand the things he did I guess.
Are many of the Japanese people in your company interested in Japan's military history AckAck?
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 04, 2015, 09:29:56 PM
Very true, Yamamoto was one of very few of their leadership that didn't believe this. He lived in the USA, many others hadn't seen first hand the things he did I guess.
Are many of the Japanese people in your company interested in Japan's military history AckAck?
Not many that I know of. They will usually politely change the subject if it ever comes up. There was one guy, he was the manager of our TQA department that was interested in WW2 aviation, his grandfather was a pilot in the IJA and survived the war.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Guppy35 on March 04, 2015, 11:27:12 PM
Just an aside to the Musashi find. In my small collection of WW2 aviation bits, I have the flying helmet of a USS Intrepid Helldiver pilot who won a Navy Cross for scoring one of those hits on the Musashi.
Amazing that something so big and supposedly so powerful could die from a swarm of airplanes.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Muzzy on March 05, 2015, 12:41:02 AM
The film Otoko-Tachi No Yamato did a pretty good job of depicting the Yamato under heavy air attack. Musashi pretty much faced the same situation.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 06, 2015, 12:52:09 AM
The film Otoko-Tachi No Yamato did a pretty good job of depicting the Yamato under heavy air attack. Musashi pretty much faced the same situation.
It was viciously real. The USN fighters would concentrate their fire on one side of a ship, degrade or eliminate the AA on that one side, and then send the torpedo planes in. One of the reason the IJN was so bad at defending its ships against air attack was their lack of a mid sized AA gun. In this the Bofors 40mm was the best in the world. The IJN simply welded on a bunch of crummy magazine fed 25mm guns http://www.combinedfleet.com/25_60.htm and left the crews wide open to the 0.50 MGs of the American Hellcats and other naval planes. The movie Yamato showed what happened in horrendous detail. The movie is a must for any WW2 DVD collection.
This at a time when USN AA was the best in the world. Even featuring proximity fuses, and still, look at the havoc Kamakazi's caused.
There was a 3rd Yamato class laid out, the Shinano. This BB was laid in '40 and was only converted to become a CV in '42 after Midway. So there were plenty of old timers still around in the IJN who wanted BBs until disaster looked them in the face. Shinano did about as much as Musashi, and Yamato didnt do much more. Tho it did sink a few ships I believe in the Philippine Sea battles. A few DDs and maybe an escort CV, I may be wrong.
In these super Battle wagons most of their ordinance was used firing into the water in front of USN torpedo planes creating, or trying to, walls of water for the attacking planes to fly into. I honestly dont know if it worked or not but was dissapointed when the movie didnt portray that realistically at least.
Should they have been built? Would it have mattered? They were up against an enemy that authorized the construction of roughly 40 Essex class Super Carriers, all far exceeding anything the IJN could ever have with air groups the IJN could never come close to matching. And 24 were built, the rest not! cause they weren't needed. We had entire fleets made up of multiple super carriers and supporting ships.
In 1940 the IJN was the best navy in the world. But they took on an Allied force they couldnt hope to beat. Obviously it looked different to them back then which is kinda fascinating. Or do you think many knew? And just wanted to die as warriors?
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 06, 2015, 01:20:35 AM
Another Japanese WWII collection must have is the 2011 movie "The Admiral" (aka "Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet"). A biography of Yamamoto's war years.
In 1940 the IJN was the best navy in the world. But they took on an Allied force they couldnt hope to beat. Obviously it looked different to them back then which is kinda fascinating. Or do you think many knew? And just wanted to die as warriors?
This is what I wondered. I read a good little book, (title escapes me right now, if your interested I can try to find it,) that was about the high politics and maneuvering in Japan a few days before the surrender. (Basically how the surrender was able to happen.) What I recall most from the book is how disturbing some of the leadership was. They seemed to have an infatuation with death and had for a long time. I don't mean this in the usual jingoist way that a lot of commentators bring to Japanese WW2 martial culture but I mean specifically the people who had attained power (I guess you'd call them the millitarists) seemed perverted/damaged goods, whatever.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Muzzy on March 06, 2015, 02:01:28 PM
I think early on the mentality was not so much the desire to die in battle, although it was an influence. Really the Japanese had a bone to pick with the western powers, and with the United States in particular. It was born out of the perception that westerners saw the Japanese as inferior, which given the racism of the time, was largely valid. Japan thought it had earned the respect of the west after the Russo-Japanese war and Japanese participation in World War I, but Versailles and subsequent treaties proved that was not the case. Add to that the forced opening of the country by the US, and the result was a culture that felt it had to prove itself by defeating another major power, with the US being the obvious target.
Had Japanese leadership not been so obsessed with the United States as an adversary, they might have achieved their goals without even fighting them. The Americans were not going to get involved in a war unless they were directly attacked, and all the resource-rich territories were British and Dutch possessions. Had they left the Phillippines alone, they could have taken Burma, Borneo, etc. without US interference and secured the resources they wanted. It's not like the US would try to blockade them from the Philippines without a declaration of war.
But the Japanese mentality was that if they wanted an empire in the Pacific, they would have to fight the Americans sooner or later, and with the Navy and Army at their apex, they figured late '41 was the time to try it. Had they thought a bit more strategically, they could have had their empire without fighting the US.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 06, 2015, 10:46:39 PM
Some good points here. There was I believe a certain level of inferiority complex in Japanese Leadership, which grew and grew as the Military took more and more power. Also they didnt think what they were doing was any different then what the western colonial powers were doing. Tho obviously we didnt come close in ruthlessness or brutality. America in the Philippines and the French/Brits in S/E Asia gave the Japanese a sense of entitlement ; They believed they had a right to establish Empire in Asia. As THE dominant Empire.
Quote
I think early on the mentality was not so much the desire to die in battle, although it was an influence. Really the Japanese had a bone to pick with the western powers, and with the United States in particular. It was born out of the perception that westerners saw the Japanese as inferior, which given the racism of the time, was largely valid. Japan thought it had earned the respect of the west after the Russo-Japanese war and Japanese participation in World War I, but Versailles and subsequent treaties proved that was not the case. Add to that the forced opening of the country by the US, and the result was a culture that felt it had to prove itself by defeating another major power, with the US being the obvious target.
Quote
Had Japanese leadership not been so obsessed with the United States as an adversary, they might have achieved their goals without even fighting them. The Americans were not going to get involved in a war unless they were directly attacked, and all the resource-rich territories were British and Dutch possessions. Had they left the Phillippines alone, they could have taken Burma, Borneo, etc. without US interference and secured the resources they wanted. It's not like the US would try to blockade them from the Philippines without a declaration of war.
There is no way the Japanese could have achieved their objectives with the USN intact in the Pacific and an increasingly hostile Govt. in Washington. First off we had cut off their oil and other supplies which hurt their war economy terribly. The Presence of US bases, to be left untouched, in event of war couldnt even be considered. They would always be a knife at Japans back. They had two options. Attack or Back Down. Thats it.
Quote
But the Japanese mentality was that if they wanted an empire in the Pacific, they would have to fight the Americans sooner or later, and with the Navy and Army at their apex, they figured late '41 was the time to try it. Had they thought a bit more strategically, they could have had their empire without fighting the US.
Not just that but at that moment in the Showa era of Japans history the military was at the apex of their power regarding foreign affairs. Most of all the Army, using everything from assassination to bribery, but they were all on board. Most of all Hirohito in the shadows, his influence protected by the big players. As time went on the position of the Army would have weakened and other, more moderate, players would have gained influence. They knew war was coming and a fully mobilized USA was an enemy they didnt even want to comprehend. They would never have a better time, damned as it was, then Dec. 1941.
Look at this map of the disposition of power along the axis and periphery of Japans line of advance and supply on 1 Sept '39. It is simply unthinkable they would leave such dangerous American forces intact while attempting to build Empire and secure vital trade routes in S/E Asia. No disrespect but such a plan as you describe was never even considered. (http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/ww2%201939_zpsm2evauya.png)
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Karnak on March 07, 2015, 01:05:51 AM
We were pretty brutal in the Philippines during the early stages of our possession. It isn't well known history, but there is some pretty shocking and shameful stuff in there. Stuff not all that far from Japanese occupation.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Oldman731 on March 07, 2015, 01:17:57 AM
We were pretty brutal in the Philippines during the early stages of our possession. It isn't well known history, but there is some pretty shocking and shameful stuff in there. Stuff not all that far from Japanese occupation.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Muzzy on March 07, 2015, 02:05:28 AM
The question would be whether the US would have gone to war if they were not attacked directly. Most of the resources lost in the American embargo were in the British and Dutch colonies that the Japanese conquered.
While the Philippines sit right in the center of the supply lines, they are not an issue as long as the US stays out of the conflict. Could Roosevelt have declared war on Japan if Pearl and the Philippines are never attacked? Given the isolationism of the time, it's doubtful. Of course it's risky leaving the Philippines in American hands, but the threat is neutralized as long as they can keep the US out of th the war.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Perrine on March 07, 2015, 03:31:06 AM
We were pretty brutal in the Philippines during the early stages of our possession. It isn't well known history, but there is some pretty shocking and shameful stuff in there. Stuff not all that far from Japanese occupation.
I think he's referring to the transition when Philippines went from Spanish possession to short-lived independence to US possession. The nitty gritty stuff that happened there in the late (18)90s isn't even covered in (mainstream, non-AP tier) US history class. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/US/U.S.Philippines.htm
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2015, 03:43:52 AM
What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident? As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?
The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.
These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl.
Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Perrine on March 07, 2015, 03:52:56 AM
I think he's referring to the transition when Philippines went from Spanish possession to short-lived independence to US possession. The nitty gritty stuff that happened there in the late (18)90s isn't even covered unless you're in mainstream, non AP-tier high school US history class. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/US/U.S.Philippines.htm
Yup, that.
By 1941 this stuff was no longer happening, but the late 1890s were not a shining example of what we expect ourselves to be. This in no way excuses Japanese barbarism and I firmly do not believe it should be used for anything other than as an example we Americans can look at to make sure we never fail to meet our ideals like that again.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Karnak on March 07, 2015, 04:02:03 AM
What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident? As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?
The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.
These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl.
Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.
Not sure about the first, but the Panay was pretty clearly a test of American resolve to see how we'd react. From the Japanese perspective I think they saw a weak and vacillating reaction that further encouraged them to walk towards attacking us in full.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on March 07, 2015, 05:15:58 AM
What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident? As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?
The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.
These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl.
Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.
Think how different times are now. If some country repeated this today, reactions would be quite different. In those days people probably read about it 2 weeks later in the afternoon paper.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 07, 2015, 07:22:12 AM
I don't know Ripley... A lot of incidents have happened since without starting wars. Including one incident were the Israelis bombed and strafed a US ship.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: mbailey on March 07, 2015, 07:27:13 AM
Think how different times are now. If some country repeated this today, reactions would be quite different. In those days people probably read about it 2 weeks later in the afternoon paper.
Actually I think it's quite similar to today......we started ratching up sanctions pretty heavy between 37 till the start of the war. Sounds eerily similar to today's reactions to (some) global incidents.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 07, 2015, 09:43:28 AM
I've unsuccessfully been looking for a subtitled version of a Japanese TV series for some time now. It follows some Japanese military families through the wars of the late 1800's and early 1900's culminating in the Russo-Japanese war.
Despite the moron Turk who added the retarded music this is still an awesome scene!
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2015, 03:23:14 PM
Well said Karnak - others as well.
Ripley - I agree, the modern age has changed things a lot in terms of public opinion, which is where politicians/those in power often, not always, but often derive the power to execute war. I'm not saying it is a necessity, but it certainly plays a large role. It can be whipped up, manipulated, and used, far more quickly now than in WW2 and newspaper days.
I've been watching some vids on youtube by Journeyman Pictures, he has several on Japan and its current re-militirization. I recommend them for anyone interested in comparing the preWW2 Japan to things now with the current tensions with China. It's different in many ways now, but some things have stayed the same. The ...I hate to call it propaganda, but I can't find a less harsh word atm - is spooling up in Japan, there are films honoring the Kamikaze in the works, a lot of stuff like that. Attitudes have done a complete 180 in Japan faster than anyone could ever have predicted. Very interesting stuff.
It's hard to know what to think about it all, without knowing China's true intentions. Obviously with their insane military expansion in the last decade, they must be up to something - although the argument can be made that they are just matching the Western powers in numbers, as they still haven't truly caught up in numbers of ships and aircraft, but they are closing. Infantry/army is another story, they've always hugely outnumbered the west, but have had no way of moving them into an offensive posture or invading anything other than a neighboring nation through land routes.
IMO Japan is just reacting to what China is doing by necessity, and is going about it in the best way they can, as they are very new to all of this.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2015, 06:02:04 PM
I'd also say the reason this interests me is that the Japanese, regardless of how you can rationalize the reasons as to why it happened, surprised the USA at the beginning of the war. That's the definition of surprise, getting hit without your guard up, and that describes Pearl very accurately IMO.
Now, in recent times, if you discount 9/11 which was a terrorist attack and not an attack by a national military force, the USA has always had surprise, or time, on its side. What I mean is the US military had time to design plans, gather intel, run test exercises, and all of that, prior to the Gulf War, the 2n Iraq invasion, Afghanistan, what have you.
I have a strong belief that the next war, the US won't have that time, and will have to react to widespread area attacks by a well equipped and trained enemy, or even an alliance of enemies. That is going to suck, big time. Anyone else think along these lines? Having days and weeks to pour over maps, look at advanced sat and ISR asset information, use it to create detailed plans of attack and defense...none of that will be possible if another surprise attack comes just like it did in 1941.
Imagine tomorrow, boom, China hits Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan, whoever else it has been sparring with, with a series of wide spread attacks. Then launches an invasion of Taiwan. Sounds crazy, but wth else can they be planning considering current actions?
What kind of shape is the West in to react to that instantly, without the benefit of weeks and months of planning. Of course, I realize there are "war plans" in drawers for all contingencies, but these always need to be shored up with current information. Ask any war planner if he would want to have to instantly react with plans to stop attacks such as China could launch based on previously created war plans. The enemy always does things you couldn't have had predicted in previous plans, and friendly war planners always are on the defensive when a surprise attack happens.
Given the current cuts to the military, I wonder of the US and the rest of the West even COULD react to such a Chinese attack, without completely crippling the economies. China must know this, and is proceeding accordingly IMO. I don't think that they are confident they would get away with such attacks, and that the US wouldn't wipe the floor with a lot of their force - yet, but I believe that's the direction they are moving towards. Increases military capability, while the US and West's are decreasing, due to budget and money problems mostly.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 07, 2015, 06:47:18 PM
What do you guys think about the USS Panay incident? As well as the Allison incident shortly after, where a Japanese soldier struck the US Ambassador?
The Japanese bombed a US ship in Nanking that was very obviously marked with large US flags painted on the deck and structures, impossible to miss, yet it was deliberately bombed at close range by Japanese aircraft, survivors in small boats and rafts repeatedly strafed, and even had Japanese soldiers in a small boat attack the Panay with MG fire, even shooting the US Flag that was clearly obvious on the structures of the ship.
These incidents are indicative of Japanese attitudes towards America a few years before they attacked Pearl.
Both incidents do give credence to the arguments about Japanese aggressive attitudes and thinking prior to 1941 IMO.
The incident with USS Panay is an interesting one, it shows how powerful the Kwantung Army was within the IJA and government and it also shows the disconnect between the IJA and IJN.
During the fall of Nanking, the foreign naval vessels on the river were busy collecting those foreigners that wanted to leave the city, and USS Panay was standing watch over the evacuations. When artillery rounds started to come close to the Panay and other foreign ships, it was decided to move to safer anchorage up river and when they arrived at the new anchorage, they came under fire again from IJA artillery. The Kwantung Army high command ordered the IJN air groups in the area to attack the ships on the river, telling the IJN that the ships were being used to evacuate retreating Chinese soldiers and the flags on the deck were an attempt to mislead the Japanese. One IJN pilot from the 12th Air Group felt he had been instrumental in helping end the Chinese retreat north by "trapping the cat in the bag"
When the IJN command found out that it was USS Panay that was sunk and other foreign ships damaged, Admiral Hasegawa dispatched Vice Admiral Sugiyama to USS Augusta (flagship for the US Asiatic Fleet) and personally apologize and confirmed it was IJN planes that sunk Panay and blamed on being deceived by the Kwantung Army.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2015, 07:16:10 PM
Nice write up AckAck, I hadn't read much of that yet. It seems logical, the last part, about the apology, and I can understand it based on the disconnect you wrote of. Japan ended up paying over 2 million to the USA in damages for the incident, not chump change on those days.
Sentry Aloha is firing up. Two of the best F15 squads in the USAF are going, as are many other fighter types. Be interesting to see some of the results and China's reactions to some of the things already obviously being pointed in their direction that have been said about the exercise.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rolex on March 07, 2015, 08:25:56 PM
Those Australian videos are terrible. In the first video, the 94 year-old mini-submariner did not say Abe was leading the country down the same path. He said nothing remotely close and didn't mention anything about the current time. He spoke only about the past. They're adding commentary, not translating what's being said.
Japan is not becoming "militaristic" at all. Abe wants to revise Article 9 to allow collective defense actions with the US in the new world of terrorism, uncertainty on the Korean peninsula with such a young North Korean leader, the island disputes with South Korea and the continuous push by China to control shipping routes throughout the Western Pacific.
Also, there are no videos or movies glorifying the kamikaze in Japan. There are movies show the incredible hardship of them and their families, being trapped in a social system of pressure to volunteer. They are stories of sadness, not glory.
The Japanese Self Defense Forces have not killed a single person since the end of WWII. Millions of people have have been killed in conflicts around the world since then, but not one was killed by the JSDF. The police have probably killed less than 10 people in the last 70 years in the line of duty.
That's about three generations of people who have stuck to being peaceful. That's what I see... :)
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: kilo2 on March 07, 2015, 08:49:20 PM
Ripley - I agree, the modern age has changed things a lot in terms of public opinion, which is where politicians/those in power often, not always, but often derive the power to execute war. I'm not saying it is a necessity, but it certainly plays a large role. It can be whipped up, manipulated, and used, far more quickly now than in WW2 and newspaper days.
I've been watching some vids on youtube by Journeyman Pictures, he has several on Japan and its current re-militirization. I recommend them for anyone interested in comparing the preWW2 Japan to things now with the current tensions with China. It's different in many ways now, but some things have stayed the same. The ...I hate to call it propaganda, but I can't find a less harsh word atm - is spooling up in Japan, there are films honoring the Kamikaze in the works, a lot of stuff like that. Attitudes have done a complete 180 in Japan faster than anyone could ever have predicted. Very interesting stuff.
It's hard to know what to think about it all, without knowing China's true intentions. Obviously with their insane military expansion in the last decade, they must be up to something - although the argument can be made that they are just matching the Western powers in numbers, as they still haven't truly caught up in numbers of ships and aircraft, but they are closing. Infantry/army is another story, they've always hugely outnumbered the west, but have had no way of moving them into an offensive posture or invading anything other than a neighboring nation through land routes.
IMO Japan is just reacting to what China is doing by necessity, and is going about it in the best way they can, as they are very new to all of this.
Funny Vice just released this mini doc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlJpb7wCr2U
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 07, 2015, 10:04:59 PM
Rolex, if you're right, that's a pretty major deal IMO, as that channel has a lot of subscribers, and they are editing what people of languages other than English are saying to suit their agenda...well, I'd love to be involved in calling them out on that. It completely changes everything they are trying to run with their piece - from my comments you can probably tell I agree with your regarding Japan's current defense policy changes. Journalists completely changing what Japanese veterans are saying - incendiary stuff, even though it isn't that surprising I guess.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 07, 2015, 10:09:09 PM
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The question would be whether the US would have gone to war if they were not attacked directly. Most of the resources lost in the American embargo were in the British and Dutch colonies that the Japanese conquered.
There is no division here. An Empire attacking and expanding aggressively is a threat unto itself. Even if Roosevelt wouldnt have been concerned, which is ludicrous, the Japanese mind set would have to be the very capable American forces right in the middle of their of their new Asian Empire is simply unacceptable. We were already giving away Destroyers and war equipment to the British so what could possibly convince the Japanese the American forces in Asia would remain benign as long as they themselves werent attacked?
These werent helpless Dutch possession's but extremely large and capable American Land, sea, and air forces.
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While the Philippines sit right in the center of the supply lines, they are not an issue as long as the US stays out of the conflict. Could Roosevelt have declared war on Japan if Pearl and the Philippines are never attacked? Given the isolationism of the time, it's doubtful. Of course it's risky leaving the Philippines in American hands, but the threat is neutralized as long as they can keep the US out of th the war.
"Risky" doesnt quiet describe it. Not for the Philippines, not for Guam, Wale, Samoa, Midway, or the major fleet at PH. Suicidal is more like it. They knew the potential of America and to leave such an enemy untouched in the middle of your genocidal advance against other Democracy's, which tends to piss us off, is pretty bad planning.
"America" was the 800 lb Gorilla in the room. Not the Dutch, not the French, not even the English.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Muzzy on March 07, 2015, 11:32:46 PM
I think there's still a major question here that hasn't been addressed: would the US have gone to war with Japan if they were not attacked? Remember this is not the interventionist US that exists today. The American public were so isolationist that they didn't want to get involved in Europe, even though there was already a de facto war going on at sea that had claimed American lives. My contention is that Japan could have taken the resource-rich territories away from the British and the Dutch and the Americans would have done nothing. There's no way Roosevelt would have convinced the American public to declare war over a bunch of British Colonies, especially since most Americans were anti-war and anti colonial to begin with.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Dichotomy on March 08, 2015, 09:10:09 AM
I had the complete sets for both seasons on VHS and stupidly gave them to my nephews, figuring they would love them.
They threw them in the effing trash. :furious
I found it on TPB if you're interested
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 08, 2015, 11:13:02 AM
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even though there was already a de facto war going on at sea that had claimed American lives.
Yes. Somehow, someway, America would have been dragged in not matter what. Japan was allied With Germany and Italy and there was no way it could be avoided. It was just a matter of when and where. Like you said, America was already being attacking in the Atlantic.
Look at WW1 as an example. WW2 was a far more inclusive tinderbox and far more dangerous to America and her interests. Do you really believe Roosevelt and the American people would allow these Axis powers to destroy every Democracy on Earth and not have done anything about it as long as they didnt attack a few American possessions in Asia? I already said Japan couldnt take the chance of leaving an American fleet, growing BTW, at its back as it rampaged thru Asia.
It would be strategic Russian roulette. Theres nothing more I can say. :salute :salute
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: caldera on March 08, 2015, 01:17:05 PM
Found them on dvd at Amazon, for around $100 a set. Even though the VHS sets cost me $150 each way back in the '90s, I can't justify the expense right now.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Gman on March 08, 2015, 01:49:16 PM
Wow great pics. What an immense warship, it's a shame to never be able to examine would up close as large as those battle wagons. Iowa class are huge enough when looking at them, imagine those larger Japanese ships. Great stuff, a lot of pics there to check out in the future.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Muzzy on March 08, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
It's the wide beam of these ships that makes them so impressive. Most American warships of the period had to fit through the Panama Canal. I doubt the Yamato or the Bismarck would have made it.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: MiloMorai on March 08, 2015, 03:30:53 PM
The Anatomy of the Ship series has one on the Yamato.
Well worth reading. besides the Yamato, there is one on the Bismarck, Warspite, Hood, Fuso, Dreadnaught.
A list of the ships, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy_of_the_Ship_series
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Karnak on March 08, 2015, 03:42:29 PM
It's the wide beam of these ships that makes them so impressive. Most American warships of the period had to fit through the Panama Canal. I doubt the Yamato or the Bismarck would have made it.
Iowa's beam was 108.3ft, same as the North Carolina. Yamato's was 121ft 1in, Montana's would have been 121ft. Bismark's was 118.1ft, pretty wide considering how light she was compared to the other three mentioned here. King George V was 103dt and Vanguard, Britain's last BB, was 108ft wide.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: MiloMorai on March 08, 2015, 03:51:16 PM
the lock chambers of the Panama Canal are 1,050 ft (320.04 m) in length, 110 ft (33.53 m) in width, and 41.2 ft (12.56 m) in depth.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Arlo on March 08, 2015, 04:57:26 PM
I think there's still a major question here that hasn't been addressed: would the US have gone to war with Japan if they were not attacked?
Yes. The question of whether or not there will be war was a matter of "when" and not "if". The stage was set for quite a while that the Imperial Japanese and the US were going to be in conflict with each other. The oil embargo we levied on the Imperial Japanese just made the question of war come sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 08, 2015, 10:17:20 PM
All this talk of the battle wagons has me thinking how much I always enjoyed the movie, "Sink the Bismark", and how revolutionary it was when released. Between the actual footage, the optical effects, and the realistic use of miniatures, it set a new standard in special EFX. It was also a classic story that was able to capture the desperation of the RN to sink that monster and the brave sailors on both sides who fought the battles.
A real classic movie about BBs.
Title: Re: Musashi found!
Post by: MiloMorai on March 08, 2015, 10:25:58 PM