Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: SIK1 on August 19, 2015, 06:36:44 PM
If you don't like working for minimum wage go to school, and learn something. Or you could work your way up from pee-on to master. Put forth the effort to improve your own life. But for cripes sakes don't stand around whining how you can't survive on minimum wage. If all you qualify for is minimum wage jobs and you're not some kid out of high school then you let yourself down and raising the minimum wage isn't going to fix that.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Squire on August 19, 2015, 06:43:11 PM
Wow...so if you are not paid a living wage you must be an ignorant, lazy, uneducated welfare bum...but wait...maybe you can fight for one of the few
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: branch37 on August 19, 2015, 06:49:03 PM
Sure you may have to start out at minimum wage, but if you put in an honest effort and become good at what you do, you will move up and earn more money. I know I did. I started out working for minimum wage in high school, and now make a decent wage because I learned a skill, and became somewhat good at it.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: The Fugitive on August 19, 2015, 06:58:41 PM
Minimum wage is where you START, much like everyone else. Where you go from there is COMPLETELY up to you. Be lazy and squeak and moan instead of doing your job, and minimum is all you'll get. Shut up and do your job to best of your ability and then some and you move up to better jobs, and better pay.
Your ENTITLED to nothing. You EARN what you get. PERIOD.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: SPKmes on August 19, 2015, 07:15:47 PM
If you get in quick you can make a machine to turn the crank sit back and enjoy a passive income
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Squire on August 19, 2015, 07:37:56 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 19, 2015, 07:42:04 PM
It's not an effective argument for raising the minimum wage at all. It shows the laziness of people, and their selfishness. The most recent (2013) review of the evidence, published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, on the relationship between minimum wage laws and unemployment states, “…the evidence still shows that minimum wages pose a tradeoff of higher wages for some against job losses for others, and that policymakers need to bear this tradeoff in mind when making decisions about increasing the minimum wage.”
There should be no minimum wage.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Copprhed on August 19, 2015, 07:49:23 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: SysError on August 19, 2015, 07:50:43 PM
LOL
Here is a friend of some here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUCILq6J2yU
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Serenity on August 19, 2015, 08:13:49 PM
Minimum wage is where you START, much like everyone else. Where you go from there is COMPLETELY up to you. Be lazy and squeak and moan instead of doing your job, and minimum is all you'll get. Shut up and do your job to best of your ability and then some and you move up to better jobs, and better pay.
Your ENTITLED to nothing. You EARN what you get. PERIOD.
Yep. My first job was in high-school, as a janitor making minimum wage, working only 15 hours a week. My second job was a grocery store cashier where I started at $9/hr and by the time I left, was at $10 (A year later). After that (while still in college) I was doing promotions starting at $15 an hour, and by the end of the year, I was at $27/hr. All of that before even the degree. Now I'm on salary doing nicely. Certainly there are unforeseen circumstances which may hold you back, and many businesses which won't pay you more than they absolutely have to, but those aren't businesses you want to STAY with. Earn some experience for your resume, and find a company paying more.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 19, 2015, 08:40:55 PM
...the majority of employers must be forced to pay a living wage.
Disregarding the immorality of using force to extort money from people, that is a great way of getting jobs outsourced to a foreign country.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Ripsnort on August 19, 2015, 10:17:09 PM
What copprhead is saying is the financial culture of the world has changed. More competition overseas forces American businesses to be more competitive and that starts and ends with paying resources cheaper wages. If it's not HERE, it's over THERE.
You would do the same if you crunched the numbers in your own business and a bean counter said "Hey, we can get the same labor force, producing the same product, in China, for 1/2 the wage price"
It is NOT corporate greed, it's a matter of common sense in a capitalistic business world.
So, in essence, our USA, as predicted in the late 20th century, is slowly transforming into a Service Industry payroll with min wage jobs while the jobs requiring education move overseas.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Aspen on August 19, 2015, 10:52:05 PM
Life gets better when you realize that turning the crank faster spits out more money.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Squire on August 19, 2015, 11:23:53 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Mitchell on August 20, 2015, 12:23:26 AM
"Nearly 2 million" out of the 148 million currently employed in the workforce. So let's round that to 1.5% Pretty sure thats the entry level jobs for people to either prove themselves and move up or not and be stuck.
I started at BIC almost 4 years ago at minimum wage ($8.50 in MN) as a temp. I worked hard, and had a good attitude. After 3 months they offered me a full time job and I continued working hard and am now making well over double minimum wage with plenty more room to move up in the company as long as I keep proving myself.
If you are stuck at minimum wage for more than a year its because your performance/skill level reflects that or because you are a sucker for sticking with an employer who doesn't pay you what you are worth.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Scherf on August 20, 2015, 01:35:59 AM
$17.29
The national minimum wage is currently $17.29 per hour or $656.90 per 38 hour week (before tax). Casual employees covered by the national minimum wage also get at least a 25 per cent casual loading.
It's not an effective argument for raising the minimum wage at all. It shows the laziness of people, and their selfishness. The most recent (2013) review of the evidence, published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, on the relationship between minimum wage laws and unemployment states, “…the evidence still shows that minimum wages pose a tradeoff of higher wages for some against job losses for others, and that policymakers need to bear this tradeoff in mind when making decisions about increasing the minimum wage.”
There should be no minimum wage.
Hows this?
The minimum wage is nothing to do with helping people.
It is a mechanism to stop the whole system falling to pieces like it did in 1929.
The IMF, EU are the same, its cheaper than WWIII.
It also keeps comsumerism going and it is also a stealth tax.
Work hard and get a good job...stop being silly.
China has people working for $4 an hour to make cars. (Funded by US conglomerates)
In Rome they gave the people bread to keep them quiet, now its big macs and baseball caps.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: asterix on August 20, 2015, 02:34:05 AM
Sure you may have to start out at minimum wage, but if you put in an honest effort and become good at what you do, you will move up and earn more money. I know I did. I started out working for minimum wage in high school, and now make a decent wage because I learned a skill, and became somewhat good at it.
Sometimes the "American Dream" is a bit more difficult to achieve because many business owners aren`t interested in letting people move up and earn more. Instead they want minimum wage employees to do minimum skill work for longer time. If there is a situation where you could learn by working on a complicated task with an experienced worker they send the lower skill worker to do other simple work and let the experienced worker take care of things alone. Same thing is done to students on practical work. Sometimes the expert workers are hired from other countries that have a significantly lower average pay. These people do good work for less and there is a language problem that effectively slows lower skill workers getting better. I have seen that in many places where I live.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Lusche on August 20, 2015, 04:21:19 AM
US has the same unemployment rate as for ex UK and Germany so higher minimum wages seems to have little effect on the unemployment rate.
That's the kind of simpleminded comparisons that I expect from people who advocate in favor of minimum wage and other entitlements. The Unites States, United Kingdom and Germany are all within the top 15 countries with the highest minimum wage in the world. The unemployment rate is affected by countless other variables than minimum wage, so any comparison is meaningless.
The only data that is relevant without a detailed study of all the other factors is the correlation between changes in minimum wage and unemployment rate. And that data is pretty conclusive, even at a glance.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 20, 2015, 07:34:27 AM
But since unemployment rate has droped to around 7,5 % since 2010 the correlation is obviolsuy not that strong. (http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/52dbdfb96bb3f7f918bfc1fd-1200-924/unemployment-rate-2.png)
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 07:59:12 AM
It is a continuing downward trend that is clearly visible before the jump in minimum wage. Only when the minimum wage is CHANGED can a direct correlation be observed without filtering out all the other factors that affect the unemployment rate. Without the minimum wage jump the unemployment could have been less than 3%.
I truly cannot fathom how anyone can believe that forcing higher wages does not affect unemployment. It boggles the mind.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 20, 2015, 08:05:21 AM
Your picture is wrong. (http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/4/4/saupload_us_unemployment_rate_mar10.png)
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 08:07:42 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 20, 2015, 08:14:46 AM
Because if u compare w this one: (http://definepoverty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/minimum-wage-takes-effect.jpg)
U see that the correlation between minimum wage and unemployment rate isnt that strong at all..
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 08:23:26 AM
Really? Are you graph chart blind? You really don't see the correlations every time the minimum wage is increased? Like around '50, '55, '60, '68, '73, '90 '97 and the sharp increase at the end? The other minor increases gets drowned out in the noise.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 20, 2015, 08:27:20 AM
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 20, 2015, 08:31:32 AM
The mimimum wage increased during the late 70:s with unemployment going down at the same time. And even if the unemployment rate is affected by minimum wage raises its clearly a temporary effect.
whats confuse me is why the US seems to want to compete with third world countries in having cheap, slightly trained monkeys as their labour force. why not do as most other western countries and educate the work force and let them use their brain.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 08:32:43 AM
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 20, 2015, 08:48:23 AM
We have a lot more people in the workforce today than we use to, we have a lot more immagrent workers, women workers, minority workers, than ever before, due to civil rights, liberty, and changes in the household.
IMO, minimum wage is hurting the core of this country badly.
1. Traditional workforce where man goes to work, can provide for family, wife stays home, man stays at company for many years, gets pension and retires, is over.
2. Poor families who have children that work to provide for the household must leave school and better eduactaion to provide for family. They get stuck in low wage jobs, cannot afford to buy education, and this creates a cycle of poor Americans stuck in a position where they cannot gain better skills, cannot move up, and don't get paid enough to support a household.
3. The theory that prices will drastically increase due to paying employees $11 an hour is not true. Prices my raise by 2-3% but that is already happening anyway. If prices increase while people cannot afford them, this stunts our growth just as much. Studies have confirmed that increasing the wage to 11 an hour would allow more people to buy goods in the Market while prices would not increase very drastically. This would cause a huge shift in consumer spending by creating a higher demand in the market, thus raising the standard of living for everyone.
4. College student loan debt is also cripiling our economy. If we have one third of students in debt, one third people who cannot afford to better their skills and get paid better, and 1/3 of people who have an education but get underemployed. We create a system where taking out loans and financing become rarities, new cars won't get bought, houses wont get financed, and expensive necessities will devalue while the majority of Americans won't be able to afford them.
5. If we don't figure out how to increase the standard of living in America for the majority of the citizens. Our country will not be the powerhouse it onces was, considering how quickly the EU and other nations are catching up to us. Businesses owners will have to sacrifice paying a little more in wages in order to keep our economy sustainable. Off shoring may be a better benifit for your company but this is precicely the problem we are facing today. If we don't benefit our own people and allow them to work for a wage they can benefit from, we devalue our own assets while becoming crippled from the inside.
I really just posted this for laughs. But it is so painfully true that it really sparks the question of peoples labor compared to the value of that labor, and what businesses owners can get away with paying them. But IMO, business owners shoot themselves in the foot as a whole if they don't pay full time workers wages that can create a higher demand in the economy.
I understand that small companies do have to pay a minimum value to employees to succeed and they should be aware of that. But my arguement is geared to multinational and multibillion dollar firms. Just to clarify.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: ebfd11 on August 20, 2015, 09:07:33 AM
Don't want to post what I want to say because if I do it would amaze you guys and get me ruled on or PNG.
LAwnDart
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 09:11:04 AM
3. The theory that prices will drastically increase due to paying employees $11 an hour is not true. Prices my raise by 2-3% but that is already happening anyway. If prices increase while people cannot afford them, this stunts our growth just as much. Studies have confirmed that increasing the wage to 11 an hour would allow more people to buy goods in the Market while prices would not increase very drastically. This would cause a huge shift in consumer spending by creating a higher demand in the market, thus raising the standard of living for everyone.
That is bogus economics. A forced increase in wages will only serve to concentrate wealth into a smaller segment of the population. While some employees get the wage raise, others get fired. While it is true that the smaller, wealthier segment of the population will then have the disposable income to spend on luxury items, the rest are reduced to begging on the streets.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: SysError on August 20, 2015, 09:18:32 AM
See Rule #2
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 20, 2015, 09:31:42 AM
While it is true that the smaller, wealthier segment of the population will then have the disposable income to spend on luxury items, the rest are reduced to begging on the streets.
That is happening now even with no minimum wage increases.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 20, 2015, 09:34:43 AM
Sure you may have to start out at minimum wage, but if you put in an honest effort and become good at what you do, you will move up and earn more money. I know I did. I started out working for minimum wage in high school, and now make a decent wage because I learned a skill, and became somewhat good at it.
That is a blatant lie for the most part anymore.
Nobody values hard work, and nobody wants to reward it, they only value the profits that can be made.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 09:35:48 AM
That is happening now even with no minimum wage increases.
Like I've said numerous times already, minimum wage is only one factor out of many that affect unemployment. But it does affect unemployment nonetheless.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 09:38:04 AM
Nobody values hard work, and nobody wants to reward it, they only value the profits that can be made.
That's a very cynical view. Hard working and devoted employees are hard to come by and worth a lot. However, if your job does not require hard work or any devotion/loyalty...
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 20, 2015, 09:49:05 AM
That's a very cynical view. Hard working and devoted employees are hard to come by and worth a lot. However, if your job does not require hard work or any devotion/loyalty...
It is an accurate view. Anyone that takes a logical look at things will see this is the rule, not the exception.
Especially as the size of the company increases, so does the visibility of their greed and immorality.
Look at the economic shart-show we saw at the end of the 2000's. We gave businesses more freedom to operate because they said they would be responsible. And what happened, they repeated the actions leading to the great depression almost exactly.
1800`s trusts and city bosses, the near slave labor conditions, the great depression, the great recession.
Every time we trust business and rich men to do what's responsible at the expense of greater profits, they rob us blind. I for one am done giving them the chance; the ideal of rugged individualism is not worth economic failure. Only those already well off, or the poorly educated believe it is.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 20, 2015, 09:49:42 AM
That is bogus economics. A forced increase in wages will only serve to concentrate wealth into a smaller segment of the population. While some employees get the wage raise, others get fired. While it is true that the smaller, wealthier segment of the population will then have the disposable income to spend on luxury items, the rest are reduced to begging on the streets.
Based on your ideology we should just pay everyone 8$ an hour so that companies could hire as many people as they want!! No one could buy anything except minimal small goods, and saving would be impossible, but hey, everyone would have a job!!
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 11:06:10 AM
My ideology? lol
Regardless of what my "ideology" is or isn't, what you posted is bogus economics. It simply doesn't work like that. Forcing employers to pay more for the same work does not generate more wealth.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 11:07:48 AM
Especially as the size of the company increases, so does the visibility of their greed and immorality.
Immorality is such a subjective word. What is immoral about business?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Aspen on August 20, 2015, 11:29:11 AM
I run a small business. In order to keep the business healthy and worth operating, labor expenses need to be kept at a certain percentage. When the minimum wage goes up, the base line is raised and all wages creep up. More so on the low end an less on the upper end as a percentage. I will continue to keep labor expenses at the same percentage. That will be done by running leaner, raising prices, cutting benefits, or raising productivity through automation or outsourcing.
My suppliers will be doing the same thing so my cost of raw materials will increase. I will keep the cost of goods at the same percentage as well by raising prices or sourcing less expensive raw materials from overseas.
If I don't do this, the business fails and my employees and I are both out of job. In the end, the consumer will pay for the higher costs. Once the ripple effect settles, nothing has changed. The new minimum wage doesn't give the employee any more buying power because prices have increased.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 20, 2015, 12:30:27 PM
I run a small business. In order to keep the business healthy and worth operating, labor expenses need to be kept at a certain percentage. When the minimum wage goes up, the base line is raised and all wages creep up. More so on the low end an less on the upper end as a percentage. I will continue to keep labor expenses at the same percentage. That will be done by running leaner, raising prices, cutting benefits, or raising productivity through automation or outsourcing.
My suppliers will be doing the same thing so my cost of raw materials will increase. I will keep the cost of goods at the same percentage as well by raising prices or sourcing less expensive raw materials from overseas.
If I don't do this, the business fails and my employees and I are both out of job. In the end, the consumer will pay for the higher costs. Once the ripple effect settles, nothing has changed. The new minimum wage doesn't give the employee any more buying power because prices have increased.
I see your point. What I have a hard time understanding is, if those prices creep up anyway, and you find your suppliers raising prices on you, you would have to raise your prices. This would in effect fall on the customer. Now, if this happens every few years, while the wage base stays the same, how does that effect the spending in the economy? What I am looking out for, is that prices are already or have already been increasing, profits and revenues have been great for business owners. But at what point does it start having an effect on the overall market when wages do not increase while prices do over time? At what point ethically do business owners consider their labor force living standards while they reap ALL the growth and revenue %s of the company. Much like how Walmart's business owners are each worth billions of dollars each, yet a large % of their full time workers cannot afford living standards, nor can they afford to grow their education, nor can they afford to change to a better job because of "skills" and their dire need for a pay check while helping to support a family.
I understand that kids and teenagers are suppose to be making low wages, but the sad truth is that most of these employees are mid 20s and 30s who now have children to support. While choices and education are on one hand, the ability to achive better education and make better choices is on the other hand, and it's very slim for these people, thus keeping them at the bottom.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Meatwad on August 20, 2015, 12:35:34 PM
I had a number of minimum wage jobs and that's all I could find because I thought that i could get by without finishing college. Yes I could get by, but barely. So the solution i had was to finish college, get a degree, and reapply for higher paying jobs. I got one too thanks to the degree.
So ultimately unskilled labor and jobs that about all you need is a ged should stay mininum wage. If you want a higher paying job, you have to have an education with preferably a college degree. And more money may mean you will have to get a job outside of your "comfort zone", meaning doing something you have never done and thought you would never do. But when you have a family to raise, you do whatever you can to provide, even if it means that you start a new profession/trade/etc.
Raising minimum wage wont work when spending $50 on groceries turns into $80 because stores had to increase the cost of goods to cover higher wages. And yes, it does happen, a lot
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: BuckShot on August 20, 2015, 12:43:48 PM
It hasn't worked on Seattle. The reduction in welfare was not proportional to the # of those who got a boost.
They are actually asking for less hours so they can still get the guvmint cheese money card.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 20, 2015, 01:08:57 PM
I understand that kids and teenagers are suppose to be making low wages, but the sad truth is that most of these employees are mid 20s and 30s who now have children to support. While choices and education are on one hand, the ability to achive better education and make better choices is on the other hand, and it's very slim for these people, thus keeping them at the bottom.
Your priorities in this line of thinking are backward.
If you're in your 20's or 30's and don't have money to support a family, you've made a bad choice. Making babies is also a choice. A very important choice.
You know why I don't drive a Ferrari to work every day? Because I can't afford one and I don't expect anyone to give me the money to have one.
People are not "kept at the bottom" in this country. They choose to stay at the bottom because it's easy. You can rise as high up the ladder to success as you want. Bill Gates started in a garage with a couple buddies and an idea. He didn't get there overnight. They saw a niche and filled it. That's how you get rich. You don't get rich with sitting on your butt. This country became great through capitalism because that's what works. Socialism doesn't work because it doesn't address the biggest fundamental trait in humans...to be better off than the next person.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 01:56:40 PM
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skuzzy on August 20, 2015, 01:58:09 PM
Uh, Bill Gates did not start in a garage. Steve Wozniak did.
I do know how Bill got started, but it would not serve your interests to talk about that.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 02:06:31 PM
Gates is a private schooled Harvard graduate. He met Paul Allen, Ric Weiland and Steve Ballmer during his school years. They were like the geek club of rich kids.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Delirium on August 20, 2015, 02:17:27 PM
My only problem wih raising minimum wage is the folks that currently make $12-$15 an hour. As one EMT told me, "If they do that (increasing minimum wage), I will flip burgers. I don't need to get exposed to bodily fluids and make less than the McDonalds french fry guy."
The alternative is raising everyone at the same rate but that is recipe for inflation. Damned if you, damned if you don't.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skuzzy on August 20, 2015, 02:24:03 PM
Gates is a private schooled Harvard graduate. He met Paul Allen, Ric Weiland and Steve Ballmer during his school years. They were like the geek club of rich kids.
Bill got an honorary degree from Harvard. He originally dropped out.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 20, 2015, 02:48:27 PM
I absolutely agree you need an education to advance and then possibly make more money. I have an education, I graduated High School, with a D average. That was the last time I went to school. While I was in High School I went to work for a motorcycle store and the owner gave me an education on how to assemble and prep new bikes. Then I went in to the Air Force and they gave me an education to be an Aircraft Controller. When i got out there was a new industry in Phoenix that was offering these new fangled things called waterbeds. The owner educated me on how to deliver, assemble and install them. Later he gave me an education on how to sell them and I became a salesperson. I read books, I took courses and trained myself to be a professional salesperson. After that I went to work for a motorcycle store and the sales manager gave me an education on how to sell them. I read a lot. I read everything, I read every night for an hour before sleeping, mostly Science Fiction. That has given me an education on the English language. The only TV I watch is science and history shows which have given me an education on Science and History.
My point is, you do not have to go to college for an education. In many, if not most cases it's a waste of time and money but you do have to pay attention, be reasonably intelligent, have the ability to learn, and apply yourself, strive to be better.
If you are working for low pay,(I won't use the term "Minimum Wage"), tough. You do not have my sympathy. No matter what job you have, there is something to learn from it. If you still have low pay after you have been working for awhile, mostly likely you are an idiot. I'm glad you aren't making enough to have a family and pass on those defective genes. I'm glad you are working for cheap so I can buy a cheap hamburger. It's not my fault, I'm not responsible for the fact that you are an idiot, or worse yet, you are just lazy.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 02:53:13 PM
Also I see a lot of people make a direct connection between the value of their labor and the value of the product they help make. As in if the company they work for increases its profits they deserve more pay. This reasoning is tantamount to economic dissonance. The value of your labor is determined by the supply of that labor from the work force and the demand of that labor from employers. The value of the product you help make is determined by the demand of that product by the consumers and the supply of the product from producers. There is no direct link, although a higher demand of the product may lead to higher production, which in turn increases demand for labor.
For example: If you're working on the factory floor assembling Ford Mustangs and suddenly the demand for that vehicle skyrockets (people like it), Ford can increase their asking price, increasing their profits. That does not increase the value of your labor. You're still just bolting a dashboard into place. The value of your labor is only determined by how many other guys and gals are willing to bolt dashboards into place, and how much Ford and other auto makers need people to do that.
Labor vs. creative labor: The skinny, vegan dude or dudette who designed the Mustang's good looks, and the highly skilled and educated engineers who made it run so good that people are willing to pay more for it... The creative minds that innovated and improved the product. Their creative labor would be in more demand and thus more valuable. They could demand more pay or Ford would risk losing them to a competitor. However, their careers also ride on the commercial success of their creativity. If the Mustang had flopped they might find themselves sleeping under a bridge. No risk no gain.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: pembquist on August 20, 2015, 03:09:26 PM
I think you are confusing the value of any given unit of labor with its market price.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 03:15:00 PM
No, just the general morality behind it.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: pembquist on August 20, 2015, 03:19:24 PM
No really you are confusing the value of a unit of labor with its market price, morality has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 03:23:16 PM
I'm not a believer of the labor theory of value...
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 20, 2015, 03:25:57 PM
Regardless of what my "ideology" is or isn't, what you posted is bogus economics. It simply doesn't work like that. Forcing employers to pay more for the same work does not generate more wealth.
Look it up. It's happened twice now, and it'll happen again if we let it. People are not responsible when it comes to the good of all. Clearly there will be exceptions, but history proves that rule.
Lassiez-Fair economics showed what an awful idea you have. Thankfully the people don't seem willing to let the country go down the drain to try the same thing twice.
And lastly you assume we need more wealth. All we need is a more equitable distribution of what we have. We need to work for the people, not profits.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 03:29:36 PM
I'm sorry, but "a more equitable distribution of what we have" sounds like a euphemism for theft.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 20, 2015, 03:42:10 PM
Also I see a lot of people make a direct connection between the value of their labor and the value of the product they help make. As in if the company they work for increases its profits they deserve more pay. This reasoning is tantamount to economic dissonance. The value of your labor is determined by the supply of that labor from the work force and the demand of that labor from employers. The value of the product you help make is determined by the demand of that product by the consumers and the supply of the product from producers. There is no direct link, although a higher demand of the product may lead to higher production, which in turn increases demand for labor.
For example: If you're working on the factory floor assembling Ford Mustangs and suddenly the demand for that vehicle skyrockets (people like it), Ford can increase their asking price, increasing their profits. That does not increase the value of your labor. You're still just bolting a dashboard into place. The value of your labor is only determined by how many other guys and gals are willing to bolt dashboards into place, and how much Ford and other auto makers need people to do that.
Labor vs. creative labor: The skinny, vegan dude or dudette who designed the Mustang's good looks, and the highly skilled and educated engineers who made it run so good that people are willing to pay more for it... The creative minds that innovated and improved the product. Their creative labor would be in more demand and thus more valuable. They could demand more pay or Ford would risk losing them to a competitor. However, their careers also ride on the commercial success of their creativity. If the Mustang had flopped they might find themselves sleeping under a bridge. No risk no gain.
My question is, if those people spend 9-10 hours a day working their tulips off, even if it is screwing doors into position. Should they be provided a living wage for their efforts spending that much time doing work for that company? They won't be able to get another job, they won't be able to get a better education, they are stuck in the same skill level for the majority of their life, but we need those kinds of people right? So do we provide those people with adequate compensation to be able to live a decent life? Or do we just expect that everyone will go on and get better skills even though they cannot afford it?
And if they do get a better education and come back for a 5 dollar raise. Was it worth it? This is what the majority of most underemployed college educated students are facing right now.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: SIK1 on August 20, 2015, 03:56:48 PM
My question is, if those people spend 9-10 hours a day working their tulips off, even if it is screwing doors into position. Should they be provided a living wage for their efforts spending that much time doing work for that company? They won't be able to get another job, they won't be able to get a better education, they are stuck in the same skill level for the majority of their life, but we need those kinds of people right? So do we provide those people with adequate compensation to be able to live a decent life? Or do we just expect everyone that everyone will go on and get better skills even though they cannot afford it?
Why can't they get a better job, or advance their education? They are only stuck because they allow themselves to be stuck. At one point in my life I worked two full time jobs and went to school, because I wanted to better myself. You can choose to be a victim, or you can choose not to be one. It is up to you.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Triton28 on August 20, 2015, 03:56:54 PM
I've never seen anyone who was worth more than minimum wage actually sit around and get paid minimum wage for very long, so I've never really seen the issue with raising it. I seriously cannot think of one person who I worked with in fast food joints and stuff that didn't get offers for more money and more responsibility if they showed the slightest bit of motivation. That even includes me, and I came to work high all the time... lol. I still remember my manager at Pizza Hut suggesting I apply for an assistant manager position because of my obvious talents and work ethic. Oddly enough, I think being high for that conversation actually kept me from laughing.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 04:01:09 PM
What's the definition of "a living wage?"
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 20, 2015, 04:25:26 PM
Having enough you pay your AH subscription every month.
If i had £60 million i would be like Elton John.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 20, 2015, 04:30:33 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: pembquist on August 20, 2015, 04:41:34 PM
I'm not a believer of the labor theory of value...
I'm not being esoteric. If I hire someone to do a job for me, I am paying them less than what their work is worth because that is where my money comes from. I sell their labor for more than I pay for it. I could say that my genius risk taking blah blah blah is where my money is coming from and its marginal utility demand side blah blah blah but thats bull. When I pay one guy half of what I pay the other and they are equally productive their work product is equally valuable to me even though the price is different. This is not hypothetical, there always has to be a margin, it expands and contracts but it's always got to be their or I'm out of business. It's amoral but its the world we live in.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 05:01:45 PM
If you meant to say that it is immoral I cannot agree with you. As an employer you provide the means and opportunity for your employees to profit from their own labor. If not, why do they even need you? The part of the value of their labor that you profit from goes to cover their use of your property, your equipment, your insurance, your capital investment (and investors), your marketing, your connections, your administrative and organizational skills, and most of all your risk. It is mutually beneficial. If they didn't need you, they wouldn't work for you.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 20, 2015, 05:06:24 PM
And you think those are not achievable on $7/hour?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: guncrasher on August 20, 2015, 06:02:18 PM
I make around 26 bucks an hour. not great, but a bit above average. with ot some years I make anywhere between 60 to 90k. I worked my buttt off the last 4 months working outside in the sun to do a job that was worth far more than I got paid. you know what it got me? it got me a warning for calling out 3 times due to heat exhaustion. so I pulled back on the amount of work I get and stay outside or in the shade longer. I do about 1/2 the work I did before. after all I still get paid the same.
now tell me why should I work more when it could get me fired. you think I am unique, I know plenty of people in other jobs that are happy not to learn anything else or hide what they know because it just means more work for same amount of pay.
when it comes to jobs it works both ways. 30 years ago the attitude of my employers was what can we do to make you perform and be happy. and keep in mind I have had 3 employers. now the attitude is we can replace you with somebody else.
semp
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 20, 2015, 06:14:14 PM
And you think those are not achievable on $7/hour?
They are not. At least not in Portland, and I suspect for most of the country.
The average price for a 2 bedroom apartment is right around 700/mo, for a really cheap sketchy place.
That alone is about half of a minimum wage paycheck.
Add in a $1000 dollar beater that needs fixing every 3 months, let's say about 150/mo unless you're unlucky.
Insurance.... Well that depends. Can't really generalize that.
But that leaves just 350 a month for gas, food, and insurance, assuming you have no unexpected expenses, like your shoes crapping out on you, or a theft, or something.
Now I think food should include healthy food, proving adequate nutrition for a 2500cal/day diet, including complete proteins, and sufficient vitamins and minerals across the board to support a healthy adult. Depending on where you live, this gets expensive, as you must also factor in gas spent getting there.
And gas was getting pretty bad for a while. Especially since a lot of the old beaters don't get great milage.
Secondly, 8hours rest should be a requirement for a healthy lifestyle. Sleep is surprisingly important to mental and physical wellbeing.
Depending on where you live, you're going to just make it, or just fall short.
And what about wanting kids? Sure you'll have your spouse's income after a while, but a kid also carries a lot of expenses. The answer cannot be, "well just don't have kids". There should be no monetary requirements for fulfilling the primary purpose of life. Otherwise you're essentially saying, "you're just too poor to live".
And let's get down to the bottom of the issue. You're essentially saying minimum wage workers aren't contributing enough. This makes sense from a purely subsistence standpoint, but the developed world is no longer at that point. We have the capability to provide adequately for everyone.
It doesn't even seem to carry any significant economic costs. Germany, the 4th largest economy, the largest in Europe, does a far better job than we do at providing not merely life, but a dignified life to all. Despite the fact that, at least on paper, they have less money per person to spend.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 20, 2015, 06:23:38 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: morfiend on August 20, 2015, 06:29:27 PM
I don't understand where your marked up chart correlates minimum wage increases with unemployment rates. What it does show is minimum wage in terms of actual purchasing power (normalized to 2009) and it does show that every time minimum wage was raised it spiked in terms of purchasing power. Well duh. It further shows that the purchasing power of minimum wage has largely been maintained over the period measured, occasionally having to be bumped up to keep pace with inflation.
So where do you see correlated or uncorrelated unemployment rates in that chart?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 21, 2015, 01:48:41 AM
Minimum wage is where you START, much like everyone else. Where you go from there is COMPLETELY up to you. Be lazy and squeak and moan instead of doing your job, and minimum is all you'll get. Shut up and do your job to best of your ability and then some and you move up to better jobs, and better pay.
Your ENTITLED to nothing. You EARN what you get. PERIOD.
As much as you hate me fugitive I will completely agree with you!! <S> heck may even like you alittle bit after reading that ;) :kiss:
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FLOOB on August 21, 2015, 02:16:55 AM
I watched a show about living in Germany recently, sort of a reality show about a UK family that moved there. An interesting fact mentioned was that about 2/3 of families in Germany rent, and most don't buy a home until late adulthood. One reason is that people in Germany are reluctant to acquire debt, or credit as we call it. Whereas in the states and in the UK people are expected and maybe even encouraged to be indebted to the bank. In fact I watched a german comedian do a bit about it when he was in the UK. I also noticed watching that show that german employees seem rather servile, not as much as japanese workers but still, it seemed to be a cultural thing. And that is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the company you work for gives a toejam about you. But in the states, as Semp said, the attitude of a lot of employers seems to be like that of Stalin towards his staff, "I can have you all terminated and replaced tomorrow." And you do see a higher turnover of employees in the states compared to germany where people stay at the same job longer. Bottom line is labor relations in the uk and the states is much more adversarial. Where the employer attitude is "we can replace you tomorrow" and the mantra of the employee is "always look for a better job". I'll try to find the youtube links.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FLOOB on August 21, 2015, 02:21:31 AM
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FLOOB on August 21, 2015, 02:31:40 AM
German comedian on attitudes toward money and housing in the UK.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 05:36:45 AM
Well you cannot agree with a ghost then. The word is AMORAL.
So you're saying business is beyond morality; that it cannot be moral or immoral? Don't think I can agree to that either.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 05:50:08 AM
Germany is an interesting country. Their business culture is similar to the Korean with large family run businesses, and workers who almost become part of the family. However, the German "model" is also dominated by a brutal top-down leadership style, and to become a part of the family you'll have to be devoted, loyal and very hard working.
An insight into German work culture:
Another interesting point about Germany is that until last year they didn't have any legislated minimum wage. They now have a minimum wage of 8.5 Euros/hour. Given the cost of living in Germany I do not think their minimum wage provides for a better living than the U.S. counterpart.
There are almost a million homeless people in Germany. About one percent of their population. There are more homeless people in Germany than in America, a country with four times their population.
Germany is an interesting country. Their business culture is similar to the Korean with large family run businesses, and workers who almost become part of the family.
This picture is one of a distant past and never had been entirely true even back then.
There are almost a million homeless people in Germany. About one percent of their population. There are more homeless people in Germany than in America, a country with four times their population.
source?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:28:08 AM
" Homelessness in Germany The visible form of true poverty by Andrea Bistrich
An analysis of how/why some 860,000 people are homeless in Germany, which like most nations, has no governmental structure to address this human rights problem. "
It may be outdated, I don't know.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 21, 2015, 06:30:14 AM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/money_huge.png
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/money_huge.png)
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 21, 2015, 06:31:29 AM
" Homelessness in Germany The visible form of true poverty by Andrea Bistrich
An analysis of how/why some 860,000 people are homeless in Germany, which like most nations, has no governmental structure to address this human rights problem. "
It may be outdated, I don't know.
850,000 is closer to 3/4 million than to one million
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Lusche on August 21, 2015, 06:34:49 AM
" Homelessness in Germany The visible form of true poverty by Andrea Bistrich
An analysis of how/why some 860,000 people are homeless in Germany, which like most nations, has no governmental structure to address this human rights problem. "
It may be outdated, I don't know.
There is no comparison on the same terms with the USA in that.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:37:33 AM
There is no comparison on the same terms with the USA in that.
From that article:
"Munich, Germany They are known as "tramps", "winos", "hobos", "street people", "bums", or simply homeless. They are the poor within our rich society, unemployed and with no resources, living on the fringes. In official terms they are called "people in social distress" or more commonly "homeless". In the terms of social federal welfare laws they are classified as "people who roam with no secure form of income, singles without a home-address and regular employment capable of being taxed for social security, without a secured mode of existence and often without a sound relationship to either family or other community members.... people whose social problems prevent them from participating in community life."
Sounds pretty much like the universal description of homeless people to me.
From Wiki:
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development in January 2012 annual point-in-time count found that 633,782 people across America were homeless. With 2007 as a benchmark, the data from the report showed a 6.8 percent decline in homelessness among individuals, a 3.7 percent decline of homeless families, a 13.1 percent decline of the unsheltered homeless population, and a 19.3 percent decline in persons experiencing chronic homelessness.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:38:08 AM
" Homelessness in Germany The visible form of true poverty by Andrea Bistrich
An analysis of how/why some 860,000 people are homeless in Germany, which like most nations, has no governmental structure to address this human rights problem. "
It may be outdated, I don't know.
Yes its outdated, seems to be around 350.000, and homless also doesnt mean living on the streets. u can be counted homeless if u are an adult living w your parents because u cannot find anywere to live. Its hard to come up w accurate figures, US for ex range from 610.000 to 3.5 million http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/How_Many.html https://www.homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/#europe
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:41:52 AM
Even if it is "only " 350.000, that's still twice as many as in America compared to the size of the population.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Lusche on August 21, 2015, 06:42:35 AM
"Munich, Germany They are known as "tramps", "winos", "hobos", "street people", "bums", or simply homeless. They are the poor within our rich society, unemployed and with no resources, living on the fringes. In official terms they are called "people in social distress" or more commonly "homeless". In the terms of social federal welfare laws they are classified as "people who roam with no secure form of income, singles without a home-address and regular employment capable of being taxed for social security, without a secured mode of existence and often without a sound relationship to either family or other community members.... people whose social problems prevent them from participating in community life."
Sounds pretty much like the universal description of homeless people to me.
From Wiki:
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development in January 2012 annual point-in-time count found that 633,782 people across America were homeless. With 2007 as a benchmark, the data from the report showed a 6.8 percent decline in homelessness among individuals, a 3.7 percent decline of homeless families, a 13.1 percent decline of the unsheltered homeless population, and a 19.3 percent decline in persons experiencing chronic homelessness.
Again, you are using two very different sources that can't be compared becausey may use different methods, definitions and possible different timeframes.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:49:16 AM
Then provide a counter point.
In Zimme's article the definition was "In 2012, more than 284,000 people had nowhere to live, which is a 15% increase compared to 2010, and the numbers are expected to increase by an additional 30% to 380,000 by 2016."
To me "had nowhere to live" sounds like the American methodology: Count all the people who are literally homeless on a given day or during a given week (point-in-time counts).
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 21, 2015, 06:51:31 AM
be sure saying one million is more sensational than saying just over 3/4 million.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:52:34 AM
Almost a million. And one hundred ten thousand is a bit more than "just over".
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 21, 2015, 06:55:06 AM
And meassuring a single day isnt giving very accurate picture, a lot more people than those 633.000 are homeless in US. http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/mediadocs/280.pdf 2.48 million kids experienced homlesness in 2013...
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:59:00 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 21, 2015, 07:06:01 AM
I can see a lot of reasons for measuring during a longer time, there are not the same 633,000 people that are homeless all the time, There are a much larger group going in and out of homelessness. Look At Canada for ex. 235.000 people homeless during a year and around 35.000 at any given time, so apparently u can get "better" figures by measuring a shorter time. you comparison between Germany and US is totally irrelevant because of the reason Lusche already gave u.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 07:07:57 AM
Apparently My views are not acceptable here. I'm out.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Lusche on August 21, 2015, 07:14:19 AM
There are almost a million homeless people in Germany. About one percent of their population. There are more homeless people in Germany than in America, a country with four times their population.
You had not a single source actually supporting that. Now you had changed that to "relative to their size" - which may or may be not true, but it's now a very different claim. For the record I wasn't making any claim in this thread whatsoever so I have nothing to prove yet ;)
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 07:17:07 AM
You are twisting and turning all over this thread. Let's remember your initial claim
You had not a single source actually supporting that. Now you had changed that to "relative to their size" - which may or may be not true, but it's now a very different claim. For the record I wasn't making any claim in this thread whatsoever so I have nothing to prove yet ;)
You're mistaken. I provided (on request) a source that said "860,000 people are homeless in Germany" and a source that said "633,782 people across America were homeless."
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 21, 2015, 07:24:33 AM
Yes, one from 1999...
And as we said, those two numbers arent comparable because we dont know if the measures were done in the same way.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 21, 2015, 07:27:16 AM
What percent of America is homeless?
In the U.S., more than 3.5 million people experience homelessness each year. 35% of the homeless population are families with children, which is the fastest growing segment of the homeless population. 23% are U.S. military veterans.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zimme83 on August 21, 2015, 07:32:11 AM
In the U.S., more than 3.5 million people experience homelessness each year. 35% of the homeless population are families with children, which is the fastest growing segment of the homeless population. 23% are U.S. military veterans.
as i said, u can use a figure from 630.000 to 3.5 million just depending on how u meassure. From the figures i would say 3.5 million people experience homelessness each year with ~630.000 homeless at any given time.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 08:25:57 AM
"Experience homelessness" is a meaningless metric. I bet every illegal immigrant "experience homelessness" at one point or another coming to America. The U.S. count of homeless people includes Mexicans and other non-U.S. citizens living on the streets. Does the German count include the estimated 170,000-300,000 Romani people without German citizenship living in tent camps all across their country? Other illegal immigrants? Somehow I don't think so...
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 08:26:54 AM
Zimme, I'm not arguing with you anymore. Not worth the aggravation. Live and let live buddy.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 08:39:32 AM
Oh, and I've actually "experienced homelessness" myself! More than once I've had to sleep in my clothes at the airport like a bum because my flight got cancelled and all the hotels were booked in some toejamty tourist country somewhere.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: ghi on August 21, 2015, 09:23:30 AM
Doesn't matter how much you make, i hear about big shots CEOs jumping out the windows every week . Happiness is an inside mental atitude, doesn't matter how much money or debt you got; For a homless begger living on the streets the rest of us are slaves of ilussions; We come on this world naked ,screaming,full of dodo and we don't take anything after all this struggle, not even this material body. Money won't buy you ticket to 4th dimension ,and the rest is worthless material dust . I like this social experiment; this homeless guy worth more than all bilionares combined;
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 21, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
If you are dead wrong if you think a person could "live" well with $7 an hour.
Even in GA, a person is going to have a hard life at $9 per hour. I couldn't imagine the rest of the United States. If I spend 8-10 hours of my life slaving for a store that makes 75,000-100K a DAY (just one store), and they can get away with paying a minimum wage. Something is incredibly wrong with that situation.
This is a very tough debate. Now we have Walmart coming out saying how they lost profits because of the raises they recently gave. However, that excuses the fact that they could have cut officer commissions by 2%, but gee golly, it would be such a shame if they made 45bil instead of 50 Bil each this year. Sigh.
IMO, people who own businesses like this are making the country weak by keeping people poor, keeping businesses from competing, while being able to use government assistance for their employees, which directly correlates with the exact opposite of what Capitalism was intended for.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 09:30:46 AM
"Live well" is not required. "Live" is. If you want more get a better job or get two jobs. Better yet get two jobs and spend what little free time you have left studying.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 21, 2015, 09:56:03 AM
"Live well" is not required. "Live" is. If you want more get a better job or get two jobs. Better yet get two jobs and spend what little free time you have left studying.
But if a person has to get 2 jobs. Doesn't that limit the jobs from other people? Thus keeping the unemployment rate from decreasing?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: MiloMorai on August 21, 2015, 10:02:01 AM
This is a very tough debate. Now we have Walmart coming out saying how they lost profits because of the raises they recently gave. However, that excuses the fact that they could have cut officer commissions by 2%, but gee golly, it would be such a shame if they made 45bil instead of 50 Bil each this year. Sigh.
In the graphic I posted, the average wage increased $0.10 in the last 32 years but in the same time period CEOs went from $490.31 to $5,419.97.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 10:17:20 AM
The economy today is significantly bigger than 30 years ago, but again, the market value of labor (happy now Pembquist? ;)) is not directly influenced by it.
You had better be more specific about whom you're referring to. If you want a reply that is...
You mean like quoting the specific person with whom I was questioning? What if there seems to be a group of like minded people I have a question for? Couldn't I just use a phrase like, "some of you"? And yes, I want a reply, but I understand I might not get one for a while until someone can work out the gymnastics involved in bending around the S word.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 11:08:56 AM
Yes exactly. GDP depends on wealth creation. Median income depends on labor market price. They are not directly connected. An increase in a company's profitability does not directly affect the wages of those working there.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 21, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
Only country with "real" market economy is Britain.
The rest including Germany are play acting.
Paying their people stupid high wages :rofl
The Greece are even better, getting payed to do kak all :rofl
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 21, 2015, 11:32:47 AM
Predator, you keep talking about human time and effort as a commodity to be bought and sold, and traded. I suspect you have never once stopped, and genuinely thought about whether it should represented as such.
Also, who gives a rat's arse about economic growth if the people don't see any benefit from it? You keep espousing the virtues of free enterprise and unbridled capitalism, and how we're all stupid for looking at data that contradicts you, but you have yet to make a single coherent argument as to why the common man would want it.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: pembquist on August 21, 2015, 11:36:06 AM
So you're saying business is beyond morality; that it cannot be moral or immoral? Don't think I can agree to that either.
I think what I would say is that the mechanism of capitalism is amoral, a force unto itself it is neither good nor bad. Human agents who work within capitalism can do good or bad, they are the moral creatures who are encumbered with making value judgements and acting with or against their own desires. As a crude analogy, (which is doubtless contestable but, hey!) a machine gun is the tip of an elaborate system for turning people into corpses but is entirely indifferent to what is done with it. We would be fools if we tried to take moral lessons from the Maxim Gun. It might reveal buckets about human behavior and the construction of morality but it in itself serves villains and saints without prejudice. I think capitalism is an analytic phenomena not a rulebook.
The thing I find occasionally titillating but inevitably tiresome about discussions about political economy is the tendency towards reductio ad absurdum and the indulging of fundamentalist posture. It's as bad as religion when it comes to self righteous motivation for hacking up other people. I think the perfect torture device would be a pair of headphones with one ear playing some laissez faire Freidman doggerel and the other a diatribe from a Young Sparticist. Your brain would be crushed by the bloviation.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 11:37:45 AM
FBKampfer, if you don't want it, don't work for someone else. Work for yourself. I do.
This is my definition of "fair" and "right": I keep what I make. You keep what you make. If you don't agree then please tell me how much of what I make should go to you and why.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 11:39:54 AM
Pembquist, that I can agree on. Thank you for clarifying.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 11:49:33 AM
A thought experiment about morality:
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 21, 2015, 11:58:51 AM
So nothing to say on the first part? Figures.
And if work for you, enough to sustain a healthy life (and of course transport myself to and from your business) isn't unreasonable. Or if it is, the problem is simply that you're not offering adequate work.
And the amount you should pay in taxes is dependent on what you make. I'm in favor of a cap at 50% taxation. Or if you don't like taxes, I'll come tear up you water lines, sewage system, your roadway, of course if you live near a coast, no more federally subsidised flood insurance. Oh, no more USPS, police, armed forces, basically no non-private infrastructure. Wouldn't want you leeching off the government, now would we?
But don't worry, if you work hard enough, you can learn to build your own power plant, and water pump, etc.
Interesting fact, did you know scientists estimate that hunter gatherers only had to work about 6.5hrs per day? Of course there wasn't much surplus, and so basically said everyone had to work, and there wasn't much time to contribute to the collective knowledge. But then we figured out farming, and productivity skyrocketed, and the standard of living increased immensely for all. And of course we had surplus to fund scientists, and mathematicians, and philosophers....
Of course all this is based on the obsolete "every man for himself" mindset. But worry not, your generation will die off soon enough.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 12:04:28 PM
I tend to overlook personal attacks and skip to the important issues. How old are you FBKampfer?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skyyr on August 21, 2015, 12:16:29 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: WWhiskey on August 21, 2015, 12:21:29 PM
I started working when I was 7 years old, howing weeds in my dads fields, I made 50 cents an hour, worked ten hours a day five days a week and 7 hours every Saturday, during the summer! My first raise was to 80 cents an hour when I could drive a tractor the next year, I was 12 before I found out anything about minimum wage, I filled in for a flagman on a Big A spreader and got $3.25 an hour for a week, 60 hours! Biggest check I'd ever seen. They loved me too, hard worker they said! But there were plenty of people that would do that job for that price, I got lucky. I farmed for my family, as well as others till I was 18, made anywhere from $4.50 an hour to $7.00. Never once made minimum wage again thanks to the experience I had when I was young. Kids today don't get that, minimum Wage screws that up by bringing older adults into the entry level job market, a market that was never meant to support a family, a job that can be replaced with automation! Just like the flagman has been replaced by tracking beacons and eventually GPS, I flagged lots of spray planes to, it was fun and we did it for little money, but it was more money than we had before, and we were kids! We didn't need it, it was gravy!
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 21, 2015, 12:26:03 PM
I tend to overlook personal attacks and skip to the important issues. How old are you FBKampfer?
It was not meant to be a a personal attack, it was meant to try and give you some perspective on your own thinking and rationalizations. But you can only lead a horse to water, it would seem.
And I am 21.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 12:40:34 PM
It was not meant to be a a personal attack, it was meant to try and give you some perspective on your own thinking and rationalizations. But you can only lead a horse to water, it would seem.
And I am 21.
Ok, I will respond to your previous post. I do not consider people a "commodity" to be bartered or sold. They're free people, not slaves. However, as free people they can learn a trade and work for themselves, or they can cooperate with other free people for mutual benefit. And that is as far as it goes. No one can demand that you work for them. No one can demand that you provide work for someone else.
That there would be no "non-private infrastructure" is and has never been a problem. Most roads in America outside the big cities are private roads, and there are even many privately owned highways and some 2,200 privately owned highway bridges. There are private sewage companies and water works. Private energy companies. Private security companies. Private fire fighting companies. Most of the public services that are funded by tax money are actually performed by private companies on contract with the state/feds.
Saying that something wouldn't exist if the government didn't provide it is just nonsensical. No government ever invented or created anything. People did.
And (hopefully) you'll be a retired old gentleman by the time my generation dies off. I'm 20 years older than you.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 12:54:46 PM
I paid for my education by driving a cab in the evenings and weekends. I started my business literally out of my mom's basement. For the first few years I was still driving the cab to get by.
If you want any sort of advice it is this: Find out what you're good at (not what you want to do, but what you actually have an aptitude for), learn and practice and work until you're great at it (or at least useful).
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 21, 2015, 01:11:42 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 21, 2015, 01:27:10 PM
Ok, I will respond to your previous post. I do not consider people a "commodity" to be bartered or sold. They're free people, not slaves. However, as free people they can learn a trade and work for themselves, or they can cooperate with other free people for mutual benefit. And that is as far as it goes. No one can demand that you work for them. No one can demand that you provide work for someone else.
This is not what I asked. Should their time be monetized and commoditized? And I'm not asking from a "does that system of work estimation function adequately". Setting aside all thoughts of economic functions, can you, in 10 minutes of quiet thought, come up with any reasons why monetization of time could be harmful, or detrimental, or simply shouldn't be done?
Quote
That there would be no "non-private infrastructure" is and has never been a problem. Most roads in America outside the big cities are private roads, and there are even many privately owned highways and some 2,200 privately owned highway bridges. There are private sewage companies and water works. Private energy companies. Private security companies. Private fire fighting companies. Most of the public services that are funded by tax money are actually performed by private companies on contract with the state/feds.
Saying that something wouldn't exist if the government didn't provide it is just nonsensical. No government ever invented or created anything. People did.
Anything bought, commissioned, or payed for by the government would naturally be paid for by taxes. Use of anything paid for by taxpayers, if you yourself don't wish to pay taxes, is hypocritical. My entire point is that, while you're free to think that you should solely own ever dime, nickle, and penny you make, you often derive greater benefit working for the collective whole than for yourself alone.
Quote
And (hopefully) you'll be a retired old gentleman by the time my generation dies off. I'm 20 years older than you.
My mistake. I had thought you were around 60. But in any case, my point was that the young are out numbering the old. We'll take the country where we want to see it go, protestations be dammed.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 01:27:25 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 21, 2015, 01:31:39 PM
Also, who gives a rat's arse about economic growth if the people don't see any benefit from it? You keep espousing the virtues of free enterprise and unbridled capitalism, and how we're all stupid for looking at data that contradicts you, but you have yet to make a single coherent argument as to why the common man would want it.
Are you insane?
Burn the witch
Predator is a yank, he will bring up his constipated rights, if you dont agree you are a North Korean or a commie :rofl
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 01:37:23 PM
This is not what I asked. Should their time be monetized and commoditized? And I'm not asking from a "does that system of work estimation function adequately". Setting aside all thoughts of economic functions, can you, in 10 minutes of quiet thought, come up with any reasons why monetization of time could be harmful, or detrimental, or simply shouldn't be done?
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding in your question. I'm not paying my employees (or my partner companies) for their time. I'm paying them for their work. And how much work they get done within business hours. I can't sell time.
Anything bought, commissioned, or payed for by the government would naturally be paid for by taxes. Use of anything paid for by taxpayers, if you yourself don't wish to pay taxes, is hypocritical. My entire point is that, while you're free to think that you should solely own ever dime, nickle, and penny you make, you often derive greater benefit working for the collective whole than for yourself alone.
Every time I use a "public service" I feel dirty and robbed at the same time.
My mistake. I had thought you were around 60. But in any case, my point was that the young are out numbering the old. We'll take the country where we want to see it go, protestations be dammed.
Sure and you will reap the benefits or suffer the consequences. Choose wisely.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 21, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding in your question. I'm not paying my employees (or my partner companies) for their time. I'm paying them for their work. And how much work they get done within business hours. I can't sell time.
Every time I use a "public service" I feel dirty and robbed at the same time
Of course you're paying them for their time. That is, literally, what you are doing.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 21, 2015, 01:45:59 PM
Of course you're paying them for their time. That is, literally, what you are doing.
Ridiculous. You aren't being paid to be there, you are being paid to produce. What you produce determines your value and your value determines how much you get paid. An idiot flipping burgers is not worth the same as a brain surgeon.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 01:48:22 PM
Of course you're paying them for their time. That is, literally, what you are doing.
No. I'm paying them to do work. If they just sat in their offices not working I wouldn't pay them anything. I would fire them. Regardless of how many hours they spent "at work."
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 21, 2015, 01:50:15 PM
What do you do for a living Kampfer?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 21, 2015, 02:01:15 PM
In the graphic I posted, the average wage increased $0.10 in the last 32 years but in the same time period CEOs went from $490.31 to $5,419.97.
And this is precicely the problem I am talking about here.
Don't get me wrong. CEOs and business creators should make a lot of money to reap their success. I believe that they should be rewarded with high pay for the stress and risks associated with the business.
That being said, there has to become a rational point of interest for American businesses owners who survive off the public. By that I mean, a business who sells products to Americans needs Americans to be able to buy the product. There comes a scale where eventually if the Americans do not make enough money, while spending all their time at work, they fail to monitize other businesses that need American demand. So while the overall GDP has gone up based on the wealth of businesses, the structural ground beneath it has become weak, and this why we as a nation are, as Donald Trump puts it, "losing at everything".
Instead of a factory worker making a living wage doing factory skilled work leading up to the 70s, we have shifted to an employment culture where factory or retail scale work is nearly invaluable to the businesses (which is not true) and corporate media have lead us to believe that these positions are "unskilled" and deserve low pay despite the success of the business. Unfortunately, we have turned into a socitey where "low skilled labor" is becoming the norm. We have more immagrent workers, more women workers, more teenage workers, more people with "no skills" in low paying jobs who cannot function in society without subsidies, more students with 30K in debt who have to start paying that off in 6 months after graduation who cannot find good enough paying work so they get underpaid and take less skilled jobs.
Now we are coming to a point where 2 or more people have to split the cost of a home to even afford it, rent rates have gone through the roof, education has increased 1500% in cost, we have more students in serious debt who get jobs that they cannot supprt themselves on top of the loans, people who have to work 2 BS jobs just to get by, and a society full of people my age who think they will get 45K a year after graduation for their education, but get hit with 25k for business administration jobs and then laughed at for not having skills, even though college was hard as Sheet. And now since companies are so reluctant to give out healthcare, the government has forced it upon us, and now more taxes for everyone. So IMO, if we don't make a change for the betterment of the working class in America, we will face serious stagflation, our industries will slow down, car and housing market will stagnate because no one will take out loans anymore.
Basically for college students my age, you have told us to get an expensive education or we get "low skilled jobs", take out a huge loan cause " low skilled jobs" don't pay enough to support helping person get a college degree, we now have a degree and 45K debt but our "skills" still lack, so you pay us cheaply, even for good jobs, we still cannot afford to do anything, and the rest of the college grads or dropouts with huge debt get underemoyable jobs with "no skills" who live with their parents still because they don't get paid enough. This is the socitey we have created. I don't think it has effected us yet, but it is right around the corner if our businesses in America don't stop trying to cheat the workers out of a decent pay.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 02:07:17 PM
DmonSlyr, if you do some research I think you'll find that the richest CEOs (the outrageously rich) do not work for companies whose market is limited to U.S. consumers. These people lead multinational conglomerates which just happens to have their headquarters in the U.S. The world is their market.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 21, 2015, 02:07:33 PM
Ridiculous. You aren't being paid to be there, you are being paid to produce. What you produce determines your value and your value determines how much you get paid. An idiot flipping burgers is not worth the same as a brain surgeon.
flipping burgers means your a idiot?
Are trash men idiots?
People who sort out your lawn?
Are you impressed by wealth?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 21, 2015, 02:14:49 PM
Because you are flipping burgers does not make you an idiot, but I think you could be an idiot and do a reasonable job flipping burgers.
There are no idiots that are brain surgeons. That was my point.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 21, 2015, 02:24:03 PM
Violator your argument is pure "entitlement". Please, because you went to college, and as you stated it was so hard, you are entitled to start at 45k a year, not 25k a year. It's 25k a year because that is the market value for the job. Others will take it for that much if you will not. If there weren't so many others that went to college there would be less competition for that job and maybe then you would get paid more for it. This is econamics which I think they teach in college but I would not know because I did not go to college. I was in the Air force my first 4 years out of High School, working. And making 400 a month at it, but I learned a lot.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: TheBug on August 21, 2015, 02:26:09 PM
Violator your argument is pure "entitlement". Please, because you went to college, and as you stated it was so hard, you are entitled to start at 45k a year, not 25k a year. It's 25k a year because that is the market value for the job. Others will take it for that much if you will not. If there weren't so many others that went to college there would be less competition for that job and maybe then you would get paid more for it. This is econamics which I think they teach in college but I would not know because I did not go to college. I was in the Air force my first 4 years out of High School, working. And making 400 a month at it, but I learned a lot.
Expected entitlement. Which is what we thought going to college was for. I thought getting a business management degree was one of the best and typically one of the hardest degrees to get to gaurantee a good job after college. It certainly wasn't easy, infact, it effected my mental status and stress status a lot. I ended up getting a great job that does take a lot of " skills" to be good in, I personally think being here for 9 hours a day takes a lot of skills within itself, but of course they undervalued my wage because of my age.. The market salery for this job at my age is BS. It was a complete shock going to different job interviews and dealing with the salaries they wanted to start me at. I denied about 5 places actually because they wouldn't give me a salery I could actually move out of my parents house with and live.
The only thing about the airforce is that, they gave you a place to live, you stayed on base, they had food, and you probably didn't have a lot of time for free time. So in a sense, yeah you were getting paid low, but they still provided you with livable means.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 21, 2015, 02:45:10 PM
Brain Surgeon Apologizes for being an idiot (http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2015/03/05/21833440/ben-carson-apologizes-for-being-an-idiot)
Good job reading the headlines only Bug. If you would have actually read the article you would have found only this in reference to the word idiot in the article. At no time does the Dr. "Apologize for being an idiot".
Here is where the word "idiot" is used:
No, no: CNN "chopped" the interview up and edited the interview down so that it "emphasized" the parts that made Ben Carson, Brain Surgeon, look like an idiot.
Nice try though.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 02:49:16 PM
An education is the first step. Then you need experience. Only the most exceptional students are headhunted and given stellar career opportunities without first proving themselves at a reduced salary. How hard a degree is to get has nothing to do with the demand for people with that degree.
That said, in my line of business creativity is perhaps the most important trait. Unfortunately creativity is something that is undermined in our society today.
Sir Ken Robinson is a man I hold in high regard for his views on this matter:
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FLOOB on August 21, 2015, 02:55:08 PM
No. I'm paying them to do work. If they just sat in their offices not working I wouldn't pay them anything. I would fire them. Regardless of how many hours they spent "at work."
You are paying them by the hour, because in many jobs, that is the only reasonable metric by which you can measure work done.
Is it ideal for either party? No. But until we're able to move past it the whole concept of valuation of labor, it's what we're stuck with. You can rationalize it all you like, but it is the way things are.
An education is the first step. Then you need experience. Only the most exceptional students are headhunted and given stellar career opportunities without first proving themselves at a reduced salary. How hard a degree is to get has nothing to do with the demand for people with that degree.
That said, in my line of business creativity is perhaps the most important trait. Unfortunately creativity is something that is undermined in our society today.
Sir Ken Robinson is a man I hold in high regard for his views on this matter:
There are a lot of people with art degrees that have a lot of creativity and also 30K in debt who need careers too, but they get no respect from business owners because "they don't have math skills" or "their education was easy" so they end up being bar tenders, waiters, or account executives 90% of the time.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 03:26:05 PM
You are paying them by the hour, because in many jobs, that is the only reasonable metric by which you can measure work done.
It is a metric that is forced upon me. However, how much an employee is paid per hour depends on how productive that employee is within the allotted time. If Bill and Bob work for me as graphics designers and both produce marvelous high quality designs, but Bill produce 50% more of them per hour, Bill's labor is a lot more valuable to me. Easily twice the value of Bob's work if not more, so Bill gets the bigger paycheck. But those days are gone. These days I contract a lot of freelancers overseas and they get paid per job/assignment. I don't really care how much time they spend as long as they deliver within the deadline. A much more natural way for job compensation that is not a relic of the early days of industrialization.
Is it ideal for either party? No. But until we're able to move past it the whole concept of valuation of labor, it's what we're stuck with. You can rationalize it all you like, but it is the way things are.
Valuation of labor will always be there. The only thing that changes is how that value is determined and compensated for.
There are a lot of people with art degrees that have a lot of creativity and also 30K in debt who need careers too, but they get no respect from business owners because "they don't have math skills" or "their education was easy" so they end up being bar tenders, waiters, or account executives 90% of the time.
Incurring debt to get an education is taking a serious risk. Doing it to get an arts degree is madness. After all, the term "starving artist" didn't come from nowhere.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Hajo on August 21, 2015, 03:30:27 PM
Around 70% of the jobs in the US are governmental. Find a problem with that? I do.
The economy needs private employers and non governmental jobs to infuse new dollars into the economy.
Governmental jobs are paid with private taxpayers monies. The taxes governmental jobs pay are dollars paid from the private sector also. Recycled private monies.
The economy is not good as evidenced by the large correction in the US Stock Market. The economy is not good in China (2nd largest economy in the world).
Raising minimum wages by force is going to have a large impact on jobs. Fewer. Some jobs may even by lost, unless you have a job funded by the Govt.
Less tax money also in taxes. Less money to pay Government Employees. Vicious cycle we are all going to watch if this correction turns into a Bear Market.
Losses today were across the board. Stay tuned. Our Economy is no where as good as the talking heads have been telling us. It still is poor.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 21, 2015, 03:50:52 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FLOOB on August 21, 2015, 05:32:18 PM
"Two world wars and one world cup.. I follow football quite closely and I don't remember the americans ever winning the world cup." Henning Wehn
:rofl I like this german guy.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: guncrasher on August 21, 2015, 06:34:32 PM
Oh, and I've actually "experienced homelessness" myself! More than once I've had to sleep in my clothes at the airport like a bum because my flight got cancelled and all the hotels were booked in some toejamty tourist country somewhere.
I was homeless back in 2001 for 6 months while making 50k a year. my child support, gas and other expenses were eating up all my money. I was able to afford a hotel room every 2 weeks on payday.
semp
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 21, 2015, 06:57:17 PM
That's impressive. How did you manage to get into that situation?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: bustr on August 21, 2015, 07:40:27 PM
Pushing everyone to get a business management degree starting in the 90's was a way for colleges and universities to make money from student loans along with demand from the business world. A perfect storm. Graduating with degrees in "English lit" and "Medieval History" was becoming the easy way to get a degree without learning anything valuable to employers. But, coming out of the 70's, employers required more than a High School diploma and a strong work ethic. While manufacturing jobs were just beginning to leave the US, and government spending in the private sector for the Cold War was going to end. That caused a big high tech industrial bust just before the PC tech bubble of the 90's.
The US became primarily a service economy. Pushing for getting masters degrees was another growth industry in public education to get at the guaranteed student loan money from the government. It was another way to eliminate competition for jobs from all the Eng lit, Mid Hist and BA Bus graduates. And woman's, gender, race and confused species orientation studies graduates. Unlike factory work that once needed many hands, well paying service industry jobs just like the hierarchy tree of many workers to fewer managers. Fewer middles class jobs to too many people with degrees. And blaming baby boomers for not retiring fast enough. Many companies don't back fill those positions. Outsourcing, downsizing, automation and virtualization is much cheaper than kids with degrees.
The 90's tech bubble was a short delay to this reality because it had never existed before, and businesses were afraid to not throw money at it for fear of being left behind. When that bubble burst, automation and virtualization was the path to get rid of needing people and their fat fingers. The single greatest cost to a company is it's employees and all the problems that go with them.
My wife works for a private university as a corporate and business outreach coordinator. College in the US except for the hard sciences and engineering has become a student loan scam. That is why todays Masters Degree is about equal to a Pre 60's BA\BS degree when you were expected to work for it. And why many High School graduates today have to take remedial reading and math classes in their first year of college. And companies have been behind the initiative to test for work and life experience as part of the qualification process to earning degrees to promote from within.
In some localities, your High School diploma is the worst case of "Participation Trophyism" you can get.
Didn't the Japanese come up with a strawberry picking machine recently? Technology was supposed to free us from many of the evils of the industrial revolution when it came to the work place. Seems to me technology is too good of a good thing. It has completely eliminated the need for a whole class of people who will always exist, and need some way to feed themselves other than the government or charity. If you don't want misery defining your society's greatest economic achievement, after the "Service Economy" eliminated the need for fat fingered humans and the self affirming dignity of work.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: guncrasher on August 21, 2015, 08:51:04 PM
ok let me explain, child support, gas, tools, food and other expenses. none of which were alcohol or drugs.
I think his point may be that you brought some or most of this on yourself, and that other people ought not to have to pay for your mistakes.
Probably he could say it more eloquently.
- oldman
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FLS on August 21, 2015, 09:50:54 PM
It amazes me how many people have no idea that work has a market value. Paying more for labor than it's worth is impossible if the payroll is generated by the business. New businesses fail all the time because they don't make enough money to even pay what their workers are actually worth never mind paying them what they'd like to earn if they had more valuable skills.
The "free" money is always a con. You believe the lie you want to hear and vote for the liar.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: asterix on August 22, 2015, 02:32:28 AM
It amazes me how many people have no idea that work has a market value. Paying more for labor than it's worth is impossible if the payroll is generated by the business. New businesses fail all the time because they don't make enough money to even pay what their workers are actually worth never mind paying them what they'd like to earn if they had more valuable skills.
The "free" money is always a con. You believe the lie you want to hear and vote for the liar.
Many people with low paying jobs look around them and see all the fancy cars, fancy clothes etc around. They see their boss posting pictures about trips to exotic places on FB and they don`t understand why can`t they have some of that profit they help to make. Not all people want to rise to the top and be the next Bill Gates or something. They don`t understand why their boss has to have a luxury lifestyle while they are working for scraps. Some people love doing their job and are willing to give their best for 8 hours per day. Many people including me have a feeling that some people are overpaid and some simpler work is underpaid and they want to change that. Sure some people work overtime and use all of their free time to study/work and can afford more, but that shouldn`t be the norm. I mean what kind of a life is that?
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: ink on August 22, 2015, 03:57:24 AM
Oh, and I've actually "experienced homelessness" myself! More than once I've had to sleep in my clothes at the airport like a bum because my flight got cancelled and all the hotels were booked in some toejamty tourist country somewhere.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
lets face it....the world is not only in the crapper...but it is swirling around ready to go down.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 22, 2015, 04:23:07 AM
It amazes me how many people have no idea that work has a market value. Paying more for labor than it's worth is impossible if the payroll is generated by the business. New businesses fail all the time because they don't make enough money to even pay what their workers are actually worth never mind paying them what they'd like to earn if they had more valuable skills.
The "free" money is always a con. You believe the lie you want to hear and vote for the liar.
Many people with low paying jobs look around them and see all the fancy cars, fancy clothes etc around. They see their boss posting pictures about trips to exotic places on FB and they don`t understand why can`t they have some of that profit they help to make. Not all people want to rise to the top and be the next Bill Gates or something. They don`t understand why their boss has to have a luxury lifestyle while they are working for scraps. Some people love doing their job and are willing to give their best for 8 hours per day. Many people including me have a feeling that some people are overpaid and some simpler work is underpaid and they want to change that. Sure some people work overtime and use all of their free time to study/work and can afford more, but that shouldn`t be the norm. I mean what kind of a life is that?
This is exaclty what I'm getting at from both sides of the spectrum. We talk about "worth" and "skills". Sometimes that minimum wage worker teaches me so much about the product I'm looking at, that I actually buy it. What a worthless skillless idiot they were for encouraging me to buy it. There is obviously no skill in that. Even though.. If they weren't there, id have walk away without buying anything. But that person is just a floor customer employee. That doesn't take " skills" I'll pay her a BS wage because "anyone could easily walk down isles and provide easy customer service to sell products. "
So here we are undervaluing "skills" based on a "market value" that isn't accurate in an economy based on capitalism and true company growth.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 22, 2015, 04:44:56 AM
This isn't about small business owners. This is about how you treat employees after you become a $15 million company and greater.
We need to make the economical sacrifice and raise wages as ethical business owners despite the value of increases in COGS. Despite the amount of jobs that might be lost. Creating economic growth is about making monetary sacrifices, but as a nation we need to raise the standards again. And encourage people that getting a job is actually worth something.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 22, 2015, 05:39:26 AM
I think his point may be that you brought some or most of this on yourself, and that other people ought not to have to pay for your mistakes.
Probably he could say it more eloquently.
- oldman
I intend no offense, but yes... I could be nothing if not more eloquent. I get that people can find themselves homeless for a short time having been suddenly kicked out by parents or spouses or landlords. But to be homeless for six months when you have a 50K job then you must have screwed up royally, or been royally screwed.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: PR3D4TOR on August 22, 2015, 06:15:22 AM
lets face it....the world is not only in the crapper...but it is swirling around ready to go down.
People have been saying that since biblical times, but human lives and the human experience has only improved. There have been short lived setbacks like wars and plagues, but we've always come out stronger and better. Extreme poverty is dropping like never before and is at an all time low in the world now, and it's only getting better. The world economy has tripled the last 20 years, and most of this increase in wealth is in the developing world. We in the western countries have seen a roughly 50% increase in wealth. Globalization is driven by new communications (mostly the internet), new markets are emerging (and merging with the old as well). The world grows closer and moving towards monoculturalism (through the merging of cultures via global communications). There is an unprecedented wave of uprisings against oppression and people are getting rid of their outmoded regimes. This "growth" can be painful and is fought against by extremists who cling to the old ways, but they can only delay the inevitable.
The world is becoming a better place every day for so many people.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: ink on August 22, 2015, 10:59:48 AM
People have been saying that since biblical times, but human lives and the human experience has only improved. There have been short lived setbacks like wars and plagues, but we've always come out stronger and better. Extreme poverty is dropping like never before and is at an all time low in the world now, and it's only getting better. The world economy has tripled the last 20 years, and most of this increase in wealth is in the developing world. We in the western countries have seen a roughly 50% increase in wealth. Globalization is driven by new communications (mostly the internet), new markets are emerging (and merging with the old as well). The world grows closer and moving towards monoculturalism (through the merging of cultures via global communications). There is an unprecedented wave of uprisings against oppression and people are getting rid of their outmoded regimes. This "growth" can be painful and is fought against by extremists who cling to the old ways, but they can only delay the inevitable.
The world is becoming a better place every day for so many people.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
this is even funnier then your "homeless" comment.
oh ya definitely the world is getting better...hell in some towns it is now illegal to be homeless and in many more it is illegal to feed them.... :rolleyes:
what you are seeing is a false peace being spread throughout the world....
a complacent slavery....
but hey you enjoy your "freedom" :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
the people in charge Love it when they can convince you it is a "privilege" to live a "free" life
hey I live in a free country...I have all the licenses and documents to prove it :rock :rock :rock
:uhoh
oh wait a minute.......
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 22, 2015, 11:30:00 AM
Predator, what percentage of that growth actually ended up in the pockets of employees?
When will the lower class's lives improve significantly? I'll tell you the answer, under your systems, they never will. Because your view necessarily implies that they're just lazy, and most seem to take that to mean they should get whatever they get.
Nevermind that circumstances also play a part, as does chance. Nevermind that some people are inherently less capable than others.
Also I do hope you realize the irony of an ardent capitalist, and perhaps libertarian talking about "extremism", and clinging to the old ways.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skyyr on August 22, 2015, 12:10:58 PM
Predator, what percentage of that growth actually ended up in the pockets of employees?
Why should ANY end up in their pockets? It's a false premise to start with.
The employees AGREED to a certain wage; ergo, none of the growth money belongs to them. Who cares how much they contributed? They legally AGREED to earn what they do.
Your argument is entirely emotional.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Zoney on August 22, 2015, 12:14:32 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: WWhiskey on August 22, 2015, 12:21:22 PM
Predator, what percentage of that growth actually ended up in the pockets of employees?
When will the lower class's lives improve significantly?
Most of it in fact. In the developing world more people now have the opportunity to work and earn a living wage. As someone else pointed out, employee salaries is the largest expense for most companies.
Just look at China. 50 years ago their GDP barely registered on the world scale, and their people were starving to death by the millions under communist mismanagement. Then they became capitalist in the late 90s before they joined the World Trade Organization in 2001. Now China is the second largest economy in the world and its people are prospering. Chinese tourists are traveling all over the world and American and European companies consider China one of the most important markets for export.
This is China today and it was all made possible by the market economy and capitalism, in spite of socialism.
I think his point may be that you brought some or most of this on yourself, and that other people ought not to have to pay for your mistakes.
Probably he could say it more eloquently.
- oldman
please do explain how other people paid for my mistakes? I was not on welfare, food stamps or even medical. I paid my taxes just like everybody else. Paid my child support, car payment, insurance, gas....
semp
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 22, 2015, 01:44:10 PM
Why should ANY end up in their pockets? It's a false premise to start with.
The employees AGREED to a certain wage; ergo, none of the growth money belongs to them. Who cares how much they contributed? They legally AGREED to earn what they do.
Your argument is entirely emotional.
More. Not all of it, not most of it, not a dollar amount, not necessarily a percentage. Things don't simplify neatly in life.
But unless they had zero hand in creating it, they should certainly get more than zero benefit from it.
And they were in large measure forced to agree. Collective bargaining has largely been crippled by union busters, and the alternative is unemployment until you find someone willing to pay higher, or find another line of work. But to claim the employers did not have the advantage is a patent lie.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skyyr on August 22, 2015, 01:49:43 PM
More. Not all of it, not most of it, not a dollar amount, not necessarily a percentage. Things don't simplify neatly in life.
But unless they had zero hand in creating it, they should certainly get more than zero benefit from it.
And they were in large measure forced to agree. Collective bargaining has largely been crippled by union busters, and the alternative is unemployment until you find someone willing to pay higher, or find another line of work. But to claim the employers did not have the advantage is a patent lie.
You failed to address one single point or provide a single, logical reason to support your stance, but that's not surprising because there isn't a single, logical answer as to why they are entitled to someone else's earnings. It is nothing more than greed and envy, wanting more than what you agreed to; an entirely emotional stance from emotional people.
And I'm rolling with laughter at "forced to agree." No one forced anyone to do anything. If they don't like the job, they can find a different job or move elsewhere. "But my family is here!" Then you're making the choice to accept a job because of convenience to your family. "But there's no other XYZ jobs in my city!" Then move to a city that does have openings, or choose another industry. Simply put, the large, vast majority of those who can't find a job have failed at one of the most basic functions of life, whether it be in preparation, ability to perform, or execution.
Here is the REAL problem:
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein
This is layman for what used to be known as the "Renaissance Man," the idea that a man should master multiple aspects of life, sports, and career capabilities; to be well-rounded and excel at everything, to be both a student and a teacher. College brats today want to specialize in one thing and make enough money to support non-important, frivolous lifestyles. Life does not work like that.
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 22, 2015, 02:50:58 PM
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: FBKampfer on August 22, 2015, 02:59:22 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: zack1234 on August 22, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skyyr on August 22, 2015, 03:17:52 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: guncrasher on August 22, 2015, 03:28:36 PM
skyyr the days when you got paid according to what you produced for the company are long gone. I believed in them when I started back in the 80's and it was true back then, not anymore.
semp
Title: Re: The minimum wage machine
Post by: Skuzzy on August 22, 2015, 03:34:16 PM
Seems this thread is just turning into a masked method to insult people.