General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JOACH1M on May 20, 2016, 03:22:20 PM
Title: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: JOACH1M on May 20, 2016, 03:22:20 PM
Passed away last month, I didn't recall a thread for it, but Rest easy sir. :cheers: :salute
He was the last living recipient of The Nights Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords. Finished the war with 222 air to air victories.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 20, 2016, 04:39:15 PM
He was a Shot down Allied servicemen?
Good riddance :old:
What's up with you?
He was not fighting for his country, he was fighting to steal other peoples countries
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: FESS67 on May 20, 2016, 05:11:59 PM
He was a German fighter pilot doing his bit in the global conflict of WW2.
The fact that he fought for Germany does not take away from his feats and achievements.
RIP
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: bustr on May 20, 2016, 06:46:46 PM
He chose to kill the servicemen of other countries knowing there was no moral justification for his deeds. Following orders didn't protect any member of the German military or government at Nuremberg. 222 victories is not a man who was worried for the lives of his family or being imprisoned or executed due to none compliance. Fess, your own country lost countrymen against the Germans defending the right to be free of those countries he took part in killing their servicemen. Feats and achievement in an immoral war, I guess if you worship immorality.
Seems a lot of gamers have a similar attitude as yours in WW2 games these days about the Germans. They did have spiffy uniforms and toys compared to everyone else. Made them look good while immorally taking away the freedom of whole countries. If you think those victories, feats, and achievements are admirable also.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: guncrasher on May 20, 2016, 07:14:33 PM
I have family that fought on both sides. but it bother's when they talk about german's "heroes" passing away. go talk to survivors see what they think. there's a lot of german civilians and military who are true heroes. they helped innocent people survive. nobody ever posts anything about them.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Stampf on May 20, 2016, 07:19:53 PM
He chose to kill the servicemen of other countries knowing there was no moral justification for his deeds. Following orders didn't protect any member of the German military or government at Nuremberg. 222 victories is not a man who was worried for the lives of his family or being imprisoned or executed due to none compliance. Fess, your own country lost countrymen against the Germans defending the right to be free of those countries he took part in killing their servicemen. Feats and achievement in an immoral war, I guess if you worship immorality.
Seems a lot of gamers have a similar attitude as yours in WW2 games these days about the Germans. They did have spiffy uniforms and toys compared to everyone else. Made them look good while immorally taking away the freedom of whole countries. If you think those victories, feats, and achievements are admirable also.
Wow...
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 20, 2016, 07:52:30 PM
He chose to kill the servicemen of other countries knowing there was no moral justification for his deeds. Following orders didn't protect any member of the German military or government at Nuremberg. 222 victories is not a man who was worried for the lives of his family or being imprisoned or executed due to none compliance. Fess, your own country lost countrymen against the Germans defending the right to be free of those countries he took part in killing their servicemen. Feats and achievement in an immoral war, I guess if you worship immorality.
Seems a lot of gamers have a similar attitude as yours in WW2 games these days about the Germans. They did have spiffy uniforms and toys compared to everyone else. Made them look good while immorally taking away the freedom of whole countries. If you think those victories, feats, and achievements are admirable also.
I thought that I had seen it all. But when hypocrisy like this is posted, I have to wonder why on Earth you fly a cartoon Focke-Wulfe? Because your own words defy any semblance of logic and I know that I am not alone.
:salute to Herr Rudorffer
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: guncrasher on May 20, 2016, 07:54:32 PM
I thought that I had seen it all. But when hypocrisy like this is posted, I have to wonder why on Earth you fly a cartoon Focke-Wulfe? Because your own words defy any semblance of logic and I know that I am not alone.
:salute to Herr Rudorffer
I also used to owned a vw.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 20, 2016, 07:55:58 PM
You better incinerate the title! Bustr will rear end you in an Audi....
actually I agree with bustr. like i said i have family that fought on both sides. but I wonder why nobody posts about real german war heroes.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 20, 2016, 08:26:11 PM
Between Goebbels' propaganda, the fact that France and Britain declared war and attacked Germany first, and the indiscriminate fire bombing of German civilians, many Germans felt they were the ones defending their country and people.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Stampf on May 20, 2016, 08:39:58 PM
The man was shot down 16 times and bailed 9 times. Yeah - he wasn't defending his family, friends, mates, and countryman...to the last.
I can't wait for FSO tonight. No "Horrido" tonight - only "Buster"
Thought you were more...something...
Out.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 20, 2016, 08:51:29 PM
Between Goebbels' propaganda, the fact that France and Britain declared war and attacked Germany first, and the indiscriminate fire bombing of German civilians, many Germans felt they were the ones defending their country and people.
:rofl
Semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: guncrasher on May 20, 2016, 09:00:03 PM
You know Semp, I blame comic books. In the real world there are few if any truly "bad guys". Everyone thinks they're doing the right thing.
I know you like to read them but stop. the fact that germany invaded poland and Czechoslovakia and god knows what else is what started the war.
I like how you stated that germany was attacked first.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 20, 2016, 09:56:00 PM
Please stop being such a simpleton. I was describing how it looked from a German perspective back then. A German soldier was told by Goebbels that they were liberating the German populations of the Sudetenland, and taking back the German territories, including Danzig (now Gdansk), given to Poland after WWII. They were liberators, or so German propaganda would like the people to think. After all Poland attacked Germany first, didn't they? That's what Goebbels told them. They staged their own Gulf of Tonkin incident on the German/Polish border. Then France and Britain declares war and attacks Germany in the so called "phony war". Again a propaganda coup for Goebbels, and he used it for all its worth. Many if not most Germans thought they were in the right as they marched into France and the Low Countries. If you for some personal, or other reason can't accept that then so be it. That does not change the facts.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 20, 2016, 10:10:55 PM
Please stop being such a simpleton. I was describing how it looked from a German perspective back then. A German soldier was told by Goebbels that they were liberating the German populations of the Sudetenland, and taking back the German territories, including Danzig (now Gdansk), given to Poland after WWII. They were liberators, or so German propaganda would like the people to think. After all Poland attacked Germany first, didn't they? That's what Goebbels told them. They staged their own Gulf of Tonkin incident on the German/Polish border. Then France and Britain declares war and attacks Germany in the so called "phony war". Again a propaganda coup for Goebbels, and he used it for all its worth. Many if not most Germans thought they were in the right as they marched into France and the Low Countries. If you for some personal, or other reason can't accept that then so be it. That does not change the facts.
perhaps but you made it sound like germany was attacked first. based on the full context that a german pilot should be not honored as a war hero.
simpleton, not.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 20, 2016, 11:18:43 PM
His bravery and extraordinary achievements will always be tainted by the government he fought for, but unless he was directly involved in the crimes, that taint is slight in my opinion. To quote Ernest Hemingway: "I have watched them all day and they are the same men that we are. I believe that I could walk up to the mill and knock on the door and I would be welcome except that they have orders to challenge all travelers and ask to see their papers. It is only orders that come between us. Those men are not fascists. I call them so, but they are not. They are poor men as we are. They should never be fighting against us and I do not like to think of the killing."
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: guncrasher on May 20, 2016, 11:39:52 PM
His bravery and extraordinary achievements will always be tainted by the government he fought for, but unless he was directly involved in the crimes, that taint is slight in my opinion. To quote Ernest Hemingway: "I have watched them all day and they are the same men that we are. I believe that I could walk up to the mill and knock on the door and I would be welcome except that they have orders to challenge all travelers and ask to see their papers. It is only orders that come between us. Those men are not fascists. I call them so, but they are not. They are poor men as we are. They should never be fighting against us and I do not like to think of the killing."
he pulled the trigger he was involved. not like the foot soldiers that didnt know crap.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Oldman731 on May 20, 2016, 11:49:21 PM
Please stop being such a simpleton. I was describing how it looked from a German perspective back then. A German soldier was told by Goebbels that they were liberating the German populations of the Sudetenland, and taking back the German territories, including Danzig (now Gdansk), given to Poland after WWII. They were liberators, or so German propaganda would like the people to think. After all Poland attacked Germany first, didn't they? That's what Goebbels told them. They staged their own Gulf of Tonkin incident on the German/Polish border. Then France and Britain declares war and attacks Germany in the so called "phony war". Again a propaganda coup for Goebbels, and he used it for all its worth. Many if not most Germans thought they were in the right as they marched into France and the Low Countries. If you for some personal, or other reason can't accept that then so be it. That does not change the facts.
So...I guess the Germans were simpletons....?
This is one of the rare occasions when I vote with Bustr. Mark it on your calendar.
- oldman
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 20, 2016, 11:59:01 PM
I saw that video a few months ago and decided not to post it. That's a Dutch lady talking I should emphasise. I think she did an excellent job of illustrating that their rigidity is only matched by their hypocrisy. Feel it's completely justifiable for 550 men taken and killed for one staff car attacked by an unidentified resistance unit. Who amongst us would not resist such an oppressive and illegal occupation anyway? The Dutch had it particularly bad under Nazi occupation. They were meticulous about records including exaclty what religion every citizen subscribed to. Unfortunately these records were not destroyed so guess what happened...
I live not so far from the dunes here in NL. Hundreds of Dutch civilians were taken out there and shot. Still in the 1960s they were finding remains in the sand. There is a burial place called Erebegraafplaats Bloemendaal, Erebegraafplaats meaning honorary cemetery. Johanna Schaft is buried there. It's one of the stillest and strangest places I've ever been to on earth. All you can think when you read the graves is why?
I think it's important to remember the broader context when recognizing the bravery of individuals. Let's not have any revisionist claptrap.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 21, 2016, 02:43:14 AM
All true, but you have to consider the fact that reprisals against civilians were not forbidden by international law until 1949. Back then the Germans were within the laws of war to make reprisals against civilians if they concluded that the civilians were supporting illegal combatants in the field. Partisans, the resistance, or freedom fighters as we call them were to a large extent illegal combatants back then, as they continue to be today. The laws of war, to this day, states that civilians shall obey the rule of an occupying army. Of course, executing civilians as reprisals is as revolting to us today as firebombing civilians is. Let's not forget that the Germans were not alone in deliberately killing civilians en masse.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: nrshida on May 21, 2016, 02:51:05 AM
All true, but you have to consider the fact that reprisals against civilians were not forbidden by international law until 1949. Back then the Germans were within the laws of war to make reprisals against civilians if they concluded that the civilians were supporting illegal combatants in the field. Partisans, the resistance, or freedom fighters as we call them were to a large extent illegal combatants back then, as they continue to be today. The laws of war, to this day, states that civilians shall obey the rule of an occupying army. Of course, executing civilians as reprisals is as revolting to us today as firebombing civilians is. Let's not forget that the Germans were not alone in deliberately killing civilians en masse.
Agreed, within the subset of an illegal invasion and occupation of a non-agressive country (is kind of my point about their hypocrisy). The limit of the law dictates behaviour no more than a speed limit dictates minimum speed. Weird discussion. Legality in this context.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 21, 2016, 04:55:29 AM
Between Goebbels' propaganda, the fact that France and Britain declared war and attacked Germany first, and the indiscriminate fire bombing of German civilians, many Germans felt they were the ones defending their country and people.
If they did not drop bombs on Narzzies civilians the Narzzies would not have had to divert massive amounts of armaments to the Reichs cities to defend them, this used up resources it needed to conquer other nations.
Are there any JAPANESE heroes who bombed Pear Harbour :old:
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: NatCigg on May 21, 2016, 09:32:05 AM
it was a truce, between zack and bustr, to only troll half of the thread. From there, downhill. :old:
Sounds like he was a legend, and you know this, man.
:salute
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 21, 2016, 10:16:27 AM
He was a Narzzie :old:
Japanese pilots who bombed pearl harbour anyone? No did not think so!
The Narzzie terror bombings at the start of WWII anyone? No did not think so!
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: nrshida on May 21, 2016, 12:12:13 PM
I have to wonder why on Earth you fly a cartoon Focke-Wulfe?
Aces High just a game, mini sport at best on a par with crazy golf or amateur snooker. I'm presently flying the K-4 a bit, and while I do appreciate some of the design elements of the real one, and the 30-mm of the cartoon one, it doesn't imply any acceptance of the motivations of those that built or flew it or ordered what was done with it.
Bustr can fly what he wants and still disapprove.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 21, 2016, 12:31:33 PM
Aces High just a game, mini sport at best on a par with crazy golf or amateur snooker. I'm presently flying the K-4 a bit, and while I do appreciate some of the design elements of the real one, and the 30-mm of the cartoon one, it doesn't imply any acceptance of the motivations of those that built or flew it or ordered what was done with it.
Bustr can fly what he wants and still disapprove.
I know it is a game. But hypocrisy is a fickle beast and so is hitting submit when you shouldn't.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 21, 2016, 01:16:31 PM
Anyone willing to fly a cartoon B-17, Lancaster, and especially a B-29 should have no qualms about flying anything in the axis plane set. This whole discussion is irrational and stupid, and in a thread about the passing of a remarkable warrior... it is disgraceful.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 21, 2016, 03:25:43 PM
No it's not :old:
Who's side are you on?
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Shamus on May 21, 2016, 04:32:25 PM
Anyone willing to fly a cartoon B-17, Lancaster, and especially a B-29 should have no qualms about flying anything in the axis plane set. This whole discussion is irrational and stupid, and in a thread about the passing of a remarkable warrior... it is disgraceful.
About sums it up.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 21, 2016, 05:18:39 PM
Who's side are you on?
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: morfiend on May 21, 2016, 05:33:17 PM
My side,it allows me to respect those that fought,regardless of which side the fought!
It was over 70 years ago,most have past or are close to it,all should be respected.....Lest we forget!
:salute
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: FESS67 on May 21, 2016, 05:40:58 PM
wow. I am almost speechless with some of the responses.
The truth is we do remember the feats of great fighting men, from the mythology of the ancients to modern day conflicts. The motivations of the leadership and the legalities of the conflict are IMO a very separate issue and not relevant when considering an individuals military record. There are exceptional people from all sides of the conflict that we remember. History is not just for the victors and respect for skill and valour can and should be afforded to combatants of all sides.
I am very firmly on the side of remembering all heroes.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: guncrasher on May 21, 2016, 06:02:53 PM
My side,it allows me to respect those that fought,regardless of which side the fought!
It was over 70 years ago,most have past or are close to it,all should be respected.....Lest we forget!
:salute
and yet we are still putting them on trial for the atrocities they committed 70 years ago. point is this is a bb. you can put whoever you want here and call him a hero. while others have a right to disagree.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: FESS67 on May 21, 2016, 06:08:37 PM
and yet we are still putting them on trial for the atrocities they committed 70 years ago. point is this is a bb. you can put whoever you want here and call him a hero. while others have a right to disagree.
semp
We are not defending those individuals who committed war crimes. That is a very separate issue.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: FLOOB on May 21, 2016, 06:35:56 PM
We are not defending those individuals who committed war crimes. That is a very separate issue.
actually i was pointing out to somebody that posted that after 70 years we should forgive and forget.
semp
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 12:44:35 AM
WWII war criminals are still being looked for sure, but how many Luftwaffe officers have ever been convinced of war crimes? Two. Hermann Göring and Erhard Milch, but for their involvement in the Holocaust, not for anything the Luftwaffe did. Many of the Luftwaffe's top surviving people became officers in the West German Air Force after the war, and worked alongside their former enemies in NATO. People like Erich Hartmann and Gunther Rall.
Maybe Semp's Jewish and lost people in the Shoah, I don't know, but his hatred seems irrational to me.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: morfiend on May 22, 2016, 01:48:22 AM
actually i was pointing out to somebody that posted that after 70 years we should forgive and forget.
semp
Maybe you should read what I said? :rolleyes:
I never mentioned heroes and I did say LEST we forget not to forgive and forget. But it's ok you can put words in my mouth!
It was over 70 years ago,most have past and the rest are very close to passing,I dont know about you but I was taught to respect my elders. I have had the pleasure to meet players on both sides and while I dont agree with what was trying to be done I can still respect the men who fought and died,or lived.
If you cant see past this then I feel sorry for you.
:salute
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 22, 2016, 04:08:09 AM
God forbid someone who is responsible for pretecting his family and friends against his will... :confused:
A defence Joe, which would not have been necessary had Nazi Germany not decided to invade and subjugate all of Europe from the channel to the Volga for the selfish benefit of the German Volk and the establisment of a vicious and murderous political movement, is the subtle point which ought not to be suppressed.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 04:49:38 AM
Guilt by association fallacy.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: nrshida on May 22, 2016, 05:03:13 AM
Nonsense. There's no comparison implied at all just context. I don't know anything about Erich Rudorffer. He could have been a brave and moralistic gentleman for all I know, like I consider H.J. Marseille to have been, or he could have been a to-the-core-Nazi like Rudel. I do not discount brave or noble acts by German pilots (or French pilots, Japanese pilots...). It's irrelevant. Supressing the context however would make this forum a complete cacka-hole Narziefest like the comments section of some YouTube vids. Which is fine, but I certainly for one won't hang around for that.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 05:36:32 AM
Should we then also make the "subtle point" of mentioning the sordid past of the British Empire every time we talk about an RAF pilot and what he fought for? Nonsense indeed. No man is responsible for any actions but his own.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: nrshida on May 22, 2016, 05:43:18 AM
Should we then also make the "subtle point" of mentioning the sordid past of the British Empire every time we talk about an RAF pilot and what he fought for? Nonsense indeed. No man is responsible for any actions but his own.
Are you about to invoke the Boer War Concentration camp logical fallacy? :)
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 06:06:01 AM
No. However, I will point out that Great Britain has had a continuous government since 1703 and that government, currently led by Cameron, is both legally and morally responsible for everything Great Britain has done in the last four centuries. Just like the German government is held legally and morally responsible, even for what the Nazis did, and has had to make reparations to just about everyone involved. And the American government is held responsible for what they did back in the day.
Should we then point out all this whenever we discuss one soldier and his achievements? Germany and Russia is high on the list, but it is hard to think of a country that has caused more suffering and injustice in the world than Great Britain.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 22, 2016, 06:20:46 AM
We will see how the Germans behave in 30 years time when the forthcoming "Transatlantic America EU Trade deal" comes to fruition :old:
Everyone scratching their heads :rofl
The yanks will reduce the German workers inflated wages to that of Mexico.
Britain is awesome so was Churchill.
Germany lost both wars because they were not good enough :old:
Jockym started this thread because he can't decide if he is a American or German :old:
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 06:26:13 AM
The Jews suffered the most under the Nazi regime, but it's fascinating to see how Israelis today view some of the... "moral ambiguity" shall we say, of WWII.
Germany and Russia is high on the list, but it is hard to think of a country that has caused more suffering and injustice in the world than Great Britain.
Is this why we never win Eurovision anymore? :(
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 04:19:10 PM
Perhaps. The day you win the French and Irish votes you know you're forgiven... :P
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 04:22:02 PM
Which reminds me of another great QI moment:
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 06:48:57 PM
Btw. did ze Germans know you were sending up the lower classes? "Mein Gott! Hier kommt someone with no manners whatsoever!"
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Oldman731 on May 22, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
Maybe Semp's Jewish and lost people in the Shoah, I don't know, but his hatred seems irrational to me.
Well, then, just in case you think there has to be some sort of personal grudge to feel that way, let's take someone who isn't Jewish, like me.
I recently told a German friend in the EU government that he shouldn't feel responsible for atrocities committed before he was born. Euros seem to me to be obsessed with inherited feuds, as illustrated by the Turks and Armenians, or the Serbs and Croats...the list goes on. Hating people, much less killing people, for things that happened before you were alive is stupid.
That's not the point of our objections here, though. Rudorffer was a participant, fighting to advance (or preserve) a monstrous society. I have no respect for that.
- oldman
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2016, 07:52:26 PM
Rudorffer was a participant, fighting to advance (or preserve) a monstrous society. I have no respect for that.
- oldman
But you do respect our allies in the Soviet Air Force I take it? Our friends in the east who fought for an equally if not more monstrous society. The monstrous society Rudorffer fought against for most of the war. Fight for Nazi Germany or let the Soviet Union win... Heh, that's a choice I'm glad I don't have to make. And you assume Rudorffer knew how monstrous German society was at the time he fought. That he somehow knew the biggest secret in Germany. And if we consider the fact that the Holocaust was kept a secret from most Germans, how monstrous was German society compared to the allied nations, primarily the Soviet Union, the British Empire and the United States? I grant you that the United States was most likely the least monstrous of these societies, but we're still talking about a society that practiced racial segregation well into the 1960s, if not even longer. The "Last Massacre" of American Indians aka the Battle of Kelley Creek happened in 1911, well within living memory by the time of WWII. People these days tend to forget that the Nazis weren't the only white supremacists around in the early 20th century. But you know, it's like Churchill said: "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
And you assume Rudorffer knew how monstrous German society was at the time he fought. That he somehow knew the biggest secret in Germany.
Big secret. Got it.
"Erika, where do you suppose the neighbors went?"
"Oh, them? I hardly noticed."
"Now that I think of it...where did all of the Jewish people get to?"
"I'm sure I don't know. Really, what does it matter?"
- oldman
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Chris79 on May 22, 2016, 10:06:43 PM
Last I checked the war has been over for sometime now. Furthermore I suspect the pilot in question was not given much of a choice on wether or not to fight.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Chris79 on May 22, 2016, 10:08:03 PM
P.S, in before the lock for I suspect this thread is not long for the world
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Spikes on May 22, 2016, 10:53:44 PM
No. However, I will point out that Great Britain has had a continuous government since 1703 and that government, currently led by Cameron, is both legally and morally responsible for everything Great Britain has done in the last four centuries. Just like the German government is held legally and morally responsible, even for what the Nazis did, and has had to make reparations to just about everyone involved. And the American government is held responsible for what they did back in the day.
Should we then point out all this whenever we discuss one soldier and his achievements? Germany and Russia is high on the list, but it is hard to think of a country that has caused more suffering and injustice in the world than Great Britain.
/thread
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 22, 2016, 10:55:41 PM
Well, then, just in case you think there has to be some sort of personal grudge to feel that way, let's take someone who isn't Jewish, like me.
I recently told a German friend in the EU government that he shouldn't feel responsible for atrocities committed before he was born. Euros seem to me to be obsessed with inherited feuds, as illustrated by the Turks and Armenians, or the Serbs and Croats...the list goes on. Hating people, much less killing people, for things that happened before you were alive is stupid.
That's not the point of our objections here, though. Rudorffer was a participant, fighting to advance (or preserve) a monstrous society. I have no respect for that.
- oldman
Hell, inherited feuds was a HUGE part of what caused WWI AND II in the first place.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 23, 2016, 01:24:39 AM
It was the Germans who caused both wars and lost both :old:
Their cars are overrated as well.
Japan was one of the few countries that was not to blame :old:
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: pipz on May 23, 2016, 05:01:10 AM
I drive a Volkswagen! :neener:
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 23, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
Swine!
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: FESS67 on May 23, 2016, 06:56:34 AM
I actually find it disgusting that you disrespect the memory of this man with nothing but school boy knowledge of the facts.
Try going back and looking up some real history and then bring your xenophobic views here
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: FLOOB on May 23, 2016, 08:20:54 AM
The British empire was the most benevolent empire yet. A lot of places are civilization now thanks the the British Empire.
Although in some uncivilized places the worship prince Philip as a deity.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: nrshida on May 23, 2016, 08:45:19 AM
Anyone unable to see the fundamental logical flaw in Benjamin NetanYahu’s analogy is tragically in need of returning to school for basic reasoning lessons. Astounding, to my mind that Godwin's law is so well known. I think nrshida's law is far more handy: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a revisionist Brit-bashing fest approaches 1"
Never thought I'd live to see the assertion that the British Empire was a more deliberately malevolent entity than the Third Reich on this forum. Or even something as obviously easy to think of as the Roman Empire. A watershed moment for me in understanding the nature of internet-based integration and the purpose it serves for some people. Please report to reception for a reality check.
Not one of the people here posting lives in a country without selected odious acts as a fundamental building brick of its formation. You cannot extract the British Empire from the time period it existed in any more than you can Nazi Germany. Similarly not one person posting lives in a nation which has not to a greater or lesser extent benefited from the formation, expansion and decline of the British Empire. You snivelling, ungrateful barstards. :rofl
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 23, 2016, 09:37:38 AM
Had the Roman Empire still existed your point would have had some merit, but it doesn't and you don't. We could ask the Irish about what they think of the British killing off half their population, for their religious beliefs (sounds awfully familiar). Not even the Nazis managed to do that in any of their occupied areas. Heh, even Stephen Fry, himself being Jewish, and British, likened Oliver Cromwell to Adolf Eichmann. Difference is Germany is not naming things after Eichmann or proudly displaying statues of him...
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: puller on May 23, 2016, 09:39:44 AM
INteresting thread here
:salute to those who actually flew in battle and made it home alive
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Spikes on May 23, 2016, 10:37:05 AM
Anyone unable to see the fundamental logical flaw in Benjamin NetanYahu’s analogy is tragically in need of returning to school for basic reasoning lessons. Astounding, to my mind that Godwin's law is so well known. I think nrshida's law is far more handy: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a revisionist Brit-bashing fest approaches 1"
Never thought I'd live to see the assertion that the British Empire was a more deliberately malevolent entity than the Third Reich on this forum. Or even something as obviously easy to think of as the Roman Empire. A watershed moment for me in understanding the nature of internet-based integration and the purpose it serves for some people. Please report to reception for a reality check.
Not one of the people here posting lives in a country without selected odious acts as a fundamental building brick of its formation. You cannot extract the British Empire from the time period it existed in any more than you can Nazi Germany. Similarly not one person posting lives in a nation which has not to a greater or lesser extent benefited from the formation, expansion and decline of the British Empire. You snivelling, ungrateful barstards. :rofl
I don't think the argument is whether or not the British Empire was better or worse than the Third Reich in their respective time periods. The bottom line is many civilizations committed atrocities on various levels. Governments do crazy things during times of war.
What makes the analogy right is the fact that one person cannot be held accountable for something that the government (whom that person more than likely never knew personally) did. Whether or not the particular person was alive during the time period or centuries later, it just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: JunkyII on May 23, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
Didn't Germany recently downgrade Walter Nowotny's grave site from a National monument to nothing??
That amount of victories is to be respected by friend and foe a like. Being dangerous is a badge of honor.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Lusche on May 23, 2016, 11:36:03 AM
Didn't Germany recently downgrade Walter Nowotny's grave site from a National monument to nothing??
Austria, in 2003
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: GScholz on May 23, 2016, 11:56:51 AM
And after a British citizen sued the Austrian government. Apparently he had lost a relative in Bomber Command. That's where we are today ladies and gentlemen; people suing to have war graves defiled.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: JunkyII on May 23, 2016, 12:00:07 PM
And after a British citizen sued the Austrian government. Apparently he had lost a relative in Bomber Command. That's where we are today ladies and gentlemen; people suing to have war graves defiled.
Makes me think of the vote to ban Confederate flags from cemeteries on federal property.
Which, y'know, just so happens to include the cemeteries at Gettysburg. And Vicksburg. And Antietam. And Shiloh...
It's getting to where you can't say ANYTHING anymore without SOMEone getting offended.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: zack1234 on May 23, 2016, 12:05:14 PM
He would not have died in bomber command if it were not for the Germans causing war for a second time in a century.
The Germans caused BOTH world wars not the British :old:
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: LCADolby on May 23, 2016, 01:48:14 PM
This is entirely ridiculous, I'm reporting my own post to get this thread shut down.
:salute Erich. You fought for your country and followed your orders, that alone deserves respect.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Masherbrum on May 23, 2016, 01:51:55 PM
Think of all of the people who wouldn't have died had England not caused the three Crusades within a century.
England caused THREE Crusades, not the lands they attacked.
Your words, your logic and you fail to realize how ignorant it sounds? If you're trying to troll, you are failing miserably. If you aren't, you should step out of the glass house.
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: nrshida on May 23, 2016, 03:03:22 PM
Had the Roman Empire still existed your point would have had some merit, but it doesn't and you don't.
Of all the essential points I wrote you latch onto this tiny facet. You're not actually very good at this are you? Once it wanders beyond the province of The Ladybird Book of Logical Fallacies you're on pretty shaky ground with attention to detail and validity of reasoning. The Roman Empire was cited because you said it was hard to think of ‘a country that has caused more suffering and injustice in the world than Great Britain’. Whether it still existed or not is entirely irrelvant.
What is it with you and Stephan Fry by the way? :rofl
Title: Re: Erich Rudorffer
Post by: Skuzzy on May 23, 2016, 03:05:10 PM