Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TXDELTA on May 28, 2016, 03:52:21 AM
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Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers that I can work on for manuevering against this?
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Barrel Roll Defence.
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Going to try to explain what Bruv said in text form....probably going to turn out bad.
Enemy is at your high 6 O clock starting their dive in on you.
My immediate response is to barely nose down...like less than 500 foot decent rate. This will even out the speeds of the planes a little bit. At 800 to 1k you want to start your initial turn...right hand left hand doesn't matter unless your playing torque...and depending on the situation you want it to be flat/nose up/nose down. By the time they reach 600 you want to have your wing tip pointing at their nose forming a 90 degree angle. Then you just pull up into a loop focusing on what your opponent is doing next....if he is keeping hold of his E...hold onto yours...if he is dumping it trying to follow you into the loop just dump all your throttle and manuever behind him...he will most likely overshoot in a bad way opening you up for the kill.
The BRD is what most decent sticks in game do every time to manuever away from a con....should definitely be on all virtual pilots list of manuevers they want to learn.
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This video shows a good maneuver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8&feature=youtu.be
The idea is to just stay out of his guns. You know he is going to shoot at 400 or so, so as he closes to that range maneuver. Some people like to drag the bad guy a bit with a nose low very gradual turn. As they get closer tighten the turn more and more until the diving plane has too much speed and cant pull the lead for the shot, at which point you can level out to build E or as in the film roll up and into him for a snap shot. The trick is to last as long as you can, one, to be saved by a friend/picker :devil or two, to equalize the E state and have the fight start to turn your way.
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If all else fails turn 90' to them and point your wing at them while pulling back on the stick.
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Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers that I can work on for manuevering against this?
Assuming you can turn as well or better than the bandit, point your nose at them if you can and head into the circle they make with their turn. Keep enough speed so you can maneuver. If you can stay inside their turn they can't shoot you.
You don't need an altitude advantage if you know how to merge and fly into the bandit's turn circle. You might also need to work on gaining energy in a fight instead of blowing your speed and altitude at the start.
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Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.
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Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers that I can work on for manuevering against this?
Start with the basic flat turn for now then once you have mastered that then go on other defensive moves. When you see the red diving at about 1.5K out start your turn using moderate aggression. keep watching the diver. If the red is staying with you turn harder. You want to use his speed to his disadvantage. Keep increasing your rate of turn if you have too to the point your pulling under his nose. If the red has good throttle control, this simple defensive maneuver might fail but the red hurt his E position and often meet his end.
Stick with it. Don't give up and don't worry if you get shoot down.
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Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.
I wonder if you could explain exactly how to do this?
I understand but many others dont.
Tx, We were doing this the other night,once you got above and behind me I was doing a break turn,turning hard back into you,then I would go into the barrel roll defense. As you saw it was effective.
Now I'll sit back and let those who can write more eloquently than I can explain the rest.
:salute
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Break right or left, most of the time they are going too fast to hold the turn.
If it looks like their nose is pointing in front of you, you can take a gamble and pull up. Sometimes you will pass right in front of their nose before the can get a shot off and you will be in a better position to counter.
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Now I'll sit back and let those who can write more eloquently than I can explain the rest.
:salute
I hate not being able to put speech to text :aok
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I've posted a couple AH films here in the Films and Screenshots section of the forum which you can watch and study (read some notes below first): http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379560.0.html
The first film, called "190D9 dodging", was posted by MtnMan a while back in a thread talking about defensive maneuvers. In this film, MtnMan is in a lower, slower Corsair and defeats multiple attacks made by a BnZing 190.
It is a good example of several of the things mentioned above. As you watch the film look for the following: rolling your lift vector into the attacker, making a slightly nose low break turn back into the attacker, tightening the break turn as they close, rolling to point your 3/9 line at the attacker at the point of overshoot, pulling into the vertical to stay out of plane and defeat their shot attempt, then rolling back into the attacker to attempt a reversal.
This film is also an excellent example of what to do if the attacking BnZ fighter DOESN'T fall for the Barrel Roll Defense (doesn't try to follow you through your break turn, doesn't dump his E and doesn't pass below you during your reversal attempt). The BRD will not always work if the attacker maintains speed, rolls away from your reversal turn, doesn't pass under you, and goes vertical to maintain his energy advantage. You will see this repeatedly in this film. The attacker doesn't make the mistake of falling for the Barrel Roll Defense reversal and doesn't give MtnMan a shot -- however MtnMan defeats all his attacks and survives the encounter.
When that happens, it might take several defensive merges before the energy difference is small enough to get more aggressive on your reversal attempts. If the attacker never dumps some E to pull lead for a shot, he can continually reset but he will also have a hard time killing you. This can often result in a protracted stalemate. As the defender, one thing to consider is that if the attacker never makes a mistake or never fully commits, you can be defending for a while -- plan accordingly and perhaps make your post-merge extensions in the direction of a friendly base or toward friendly fighters so that the attacker has to get impatient or run the risk of getting into a bad position himself.
A few tips on watching this film and using the film viewer:
1) Initially use External view mode -- the rear view in the Corsair is not good from the default position, so you will have a much better perspective from external view. You can always go back and watch it from cockpit view once you have a good idea what the maneuvers are that he is making.
2) Select "Use recorded views", as this will show you what the pilot who saved the film was looking at. Also, turn on Icons and Trails.
3) As you watch the film (or in your second viewing of it) PAUSE THE FILM a few seconds after each attack pass. Switch to Fixed view and move the sliders around until you can see the trails. Notice the flight path of both attacker and defender. This will help you visualise what the defense breaks look like in 3D space.
4) While pausing after each attack run, also note the speed and altitude difference between attacker and defender. What you should notice is that after each subsequent pass, the attacker has slightly less of an energy advantage compared with previous attacks. As the defender, this is what you are trying to accomplish -- when the attacker has less and less energy advantage to work with, it may open up opportunities to get more aggressive in your reversal attempts.
5) Lastly, watch the film from the attacker's point of view. This will give you another insight into the fight. This is a little trickier however, as the views are not saved for the attacker, so you will have to manipulate the views yourself.
The second film is a short clip showing a Barrel Roll Defense and snap-shot. It is of me being surprised/bounced by a P-51 (I think I was looking at the map to navigate our flight out of hostile territory when I got bounced). I perform a quick Barrel Roll Defense (break turn left and barrel roll over the top) and the attacker in this case does not roll away from my BRD, passes below me and into my guns for a quick snap-shot.
Hope this information helps!
<S>
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Thanks Kingpin! I will definitely look into this. :salute
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You shot the rudder off my f4f last night TX!
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I've posted a couple AH films here in the Films and Screenshots section of the forum which you can watch and study (read some notes below first): http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379560.0.html
The first film, called "190D9 dodging", was posted by MtnMan a while back in a thread talking about defensive maneuvers. In this film, MtnMan is in a lower, slower Corsair and defeats multiple attacks made by a BnZing 190.
It is a good example of several of the things mentioned above. As you watch the film look for the following: rolling your lift vector into the attacker, making a slightly nose low break turn back into the attacker, tightening the break turn as they close, rolling to point your 3/9 line at the attacker at the point of overshoot, pulling into the vertical to stay out of plane and defeat their shot attempt, then rolling back into the attacker to attempt a reversal.
This film is also an excellent example of what to do if the attacking BnZ fighter DOESN'T fall for the Barrel Roll Defense (doesn't try to follow you through your break turn, doesn't dump his E and doesn't pass below you during your reversal attempt). The BRD will not always work if the attacker maintains speed, rolls away from your reversal turn, doesn't pass under you, and goes vertical to maintain his energy advantage. You will see this repeatedly in this film. The attacker doesn't make the mistake of falling for the Barrel Roll Defense reversal and doesn't give MtnMan a shot -- however MtnMan defeats all his attacks and survives the encounter.
When that happens, it might take several defensive merges before the energy difference is small enough to get more aggressive on your reversal attempts. If the attacker never dumps some E to pull lead for a shot, he can continually reset but he will also have a hard time killing you. This can often result in a protracted stalemate. As the defender, one thing to consider is that if the attacker never makes a mistake or never fully commits, you can be defending for a while -- plan accordingly and perhaps make your post-merge extensions in the direction of a friendly base or toward friendly fighters so that the attacker has to get impatient or run the risk of getting into a bad position himself.
A few tips on watching this film and using the film viewer:
1) Initially use External view mode -- the rear view in the Corsair is not good from the default position, so you will have a much better perspective from external view. You can always go back and watch it from cockpit view once you have a good idea what the maneuvers are that he is making.
2) Select "Use recorded views", as this will show you what the pilot who saved the film was looking at. Also, turn on Icons and Trails.
3) As you watch the film (or in your second viewing of it) PAUSE THE FILM a few seconds after each attack pass. Switch to Fixed view and move the sliders around until you can see the trails. Notice the flight path of both attacker and defender. This will help you visualise what the defense breaks look like in 3D space.
4) While pausing after each attack run, also note the speed and altitude difference between attacker and defender. What you should notice is that after each subsequent pass, the attacker has slightly less of an energy advantage compared with previous attacks. As the defender, this is what you are trying to accomplish -- when the attacker has less and less energy advantage to work with, it may open up opportunities to get more aggressive in your reversal attempts.
5) Lastly, watch the film from the attacker's point of view. This will give you another insight into the fight. This is a little trickier however, as the views are not saved for the attacker, so you will have to manipulate the views yourself.
The second film is a short clip showing a Barrel Roll Defense and snap-shot. It is of me being surprised/bounced by a P-51 (I think I was looking at the map to navigate our flight out of hostile territory when I got bounced). I perform a quick Barrel Roll Defense (break turn left and barrel roll over the top) and the attacker in this case does not roll away from my BRD, passes below me and into my guns for a quick snap-shot.
Hope this information helps!
<S>
When you say roll to point your 3/9 line at him on the overshoot, how does that apply to the many directions his lift vector could be pointed?
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It's not AH but the same ideas apply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zOD-5VzHjI
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When you say roll to point your 3/9 line at him on the overshoot, how does that apply to the many directions his lift vector could be pointed?
It generally puts your lift vector perpendicular to the bandit's lift vector. I would hope to point my wing at the bandit before he has a shot opportunity instead of waiting for the overshoot and I think that's probably what Kingpin is describing.
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It puts your lift vector perpendicular to the bandit's left vector regardless of it's orientation.
Not quite sure that is so for all situations. If he has already rolled his lift vector into you, it's not perpendicular. That aside, let's let Kingpin answer. :salute
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Not quite sure that is so for all situations. If he has already rolled his lift vector into you, it's not perpendicular. That, aside let's let Kingpin answer. :salute
I realized that and edited. =) Once he's pointed at you for the shot his LV is not pointed at you.
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I would hope to point my wing at the bandit before he has a shot opportunity instead of waiting for the overshoot and I think that's probably what Kingpin is describing.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant, though the way I phrased it in that sentence was more for brevity in a list of all the aforementioned points that could be seen in the film. I was not trying to explain each of those points in detail.
For accuracy sake, I might have said "on setting up an overshoot" or "just prior to the overshoot: once a sufficient Angle off Tail has been reached" but, I wasn't trying to elaborate in that detail.
When you say roll to point your 3/9 line at him on the overshoot, how does that apply to the many directions his lift vector could be pointed?
When you say "his lift vector could be pointed", which "him" are we talking about, attacker or defender? Both attacker and defender "could" have their lift vectors pointing in various directions.
What I was referring to as seen in the film at time points :21, :59, 1:36 and 2:25, is the defender rolling in order to maneuver vertically (push or pull) relative to the attacker, just prior to the point at which the attacker has a snap-shot opportunity. In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot.
Is that the point you were looking for?
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Yes, that is exactly what I meant, though the way I phrased it in that sentence was more for brevity in a list of all the aforementioned points that could be seen in the film. I was not trying to explain each of those points in detail.
For accuracy sake, I might have said "on setting up an overshoot" or "just prior to the overshoot: once a sufficient Angle off Tail has been reached" but, I wasn't trying to elaborate in that detail.
When you say "his lift vector could be pointed", which "him" are we talking about, attacker or defender? Both attacker and defender "could" have their lift vectors pointing in various directions.
What I was referring to as seen in the film at time points :21, :59, 1:36 and 2:25, is the defender rolling in order to maneuver vertically (push or pull) relative to the attacker, just prior to the point at which the attacker has a snap-shot opportunity. In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot.
Is that the point you were looking for?
"In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot." This is the kind of narrative that describes how to apply the basics. The "point your 3/9 line at the other guy" has the potential to breed confusion for those who are new to the game. It doesn't provide a firm understanding of the basics.
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"In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot." This is the kind of narrative that describes how to apply the basics. The "point your 3/9 line at the other guy" has the potential to breed confusion for those who are new to the game. It doesn't provide a firm understanding of the basics.
I agree with you that players should understand the basics, including what their lift vector is, so when you say: Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.
they can understand how to apply this.
I think the reason we see so many players saying turn 90' to them and point your wing at them while pulling back on the stick.
is because it tells them what to do, without fully explaining lift vector application.
Both are saying the same thing. The latter tells them one way to do it without using any concepts or terminology that the beginner should be learning. It is jumping to the how to do something, while skipping over the why.
I think you and I are in agreement that it is better to have these discussions in terms of "lift vector placement" because it is one of the most basic concepts that a beginner should endeavor to understand and much of the AH community skips over the use of the term when describing maneuvers.
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Well said, but "pointing the wing at the opponent" doesn't necessarily equate to effective lift vector utilization. I am of the opinion that it will confuse newbies who haven't been introduced to the basics first. :salute
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On the internet, when you tell them to keep their nose up, you can't see if they tilt their heads back. :D
Some people want to learn proper terminology but others do better with plain language. We try to help everybody.
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Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.
Puma44 is right, if the bandit gets into the plane with you, he can attempt to distract you by either making faces or tickling, both extremely effective.
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TXDELTA,
If you have any questions on anything you see in the films or need further explanation of the terms/discussion here, please let us know. That's what we're here for!
<S>
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TXDELTA,
Get a hold of me, SIK1, or Kingpin. We're all in the same squad and this is probably most easily shown from a ride along in the defensive position. We can get two of us together, and show and explain from both the offensive and defensive positions (so you can see how it looks from the offensive side as well). We can even work with Morf if we have too, :P
:salute
BigRat
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TXDELTA,
Get a hold of me, SIK1, or Kingpin. We're all in the same squad and this is probably most easily shown from a ride along in the defensive position. We can get two of us together, and show and explain from both the offensive and defensive positions (so you can see how it looks from the offensive side as well). We can even work with Morf if we have too, :P
:salute
BigRat
some of the best recommendations/suggestions in this thread.......
not taking away from the concept of how to effeciently do/utilize a break turn ( basic building blocks ) to the more advanced utilization of the BRD ( more advanced extended break turn maneuver with follow up role reversal from defender to being the attacker )
I encourage you to take up the Trainers on their offer for a ride along, to see the BFM applied from both view points
hope this helps
Hello everyone ~SALUTE~
TC
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I will be on tommorow night in the TA to take up your offer sometime in the evening between 4-9. Thanks!
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I will be on tommorow night in the TA to take up your offer sometime in the evening between 4-9. Thanks!
TXDELTA,
I'll try and make it in before 9 central, but 9 is about as early as I can normally make it. If this is too late maybe we can setup a better time, would probably like to set aside approximately an hour of training time. SIK1 and Kingpin if you can make this send me a PM so we can coordinate.
<S>
BigRat
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TXDELTA,
I'll try and make it in before 9 central, but 9 is about as early as I can normally make it. If this is too late maybe we can setup a better time, would probably like to set aside approximately an hour of training time. SIK1 and Kingpin if you can make this send me a PM so we can coordinate.
<S>
BigRat
I can make it by 8 central and stick around for at least an hour or so.
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I'm going to try and sneak in earlier, thanks for the help.
:salute
BigRat
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Is this what you are talking about:
You at 11K and slow with a 109G2 at 18K , fast, licking his lips, Lunch Time
I myself continue to climb, even as I see the 109 go nose down, I attempt to cut our separation , but as he goes nose down, I go nose down, cut power and continue to slow down. I want my speed to be as close to half his attacking dive speed. All the time I’m working to keep him in my Six.
As the 109 almost doubled his speed, cut his alt advantage in half and is continuing to dive, his speed will be over 500MPH, I’ve cut my speed to 169 miles per hour, but I’m presenting a profile of an easy pick. Nose low, trying to dive away , when I’m actually trying to maintain some alt and slow my aircraft.
As he closes to about 2K I allow my speed to increase up, I’m diving for real now, full power, nose down, in a hard right turn, I started to turn to the right when the 109 was 1.5K off my Six, He closed that gap very very quickly. He’s firing his guns for all he is worth, but can’t match my turn radius. He zooms back up to his perch to think things over.
I’ve moved my fight lower, his 109 zoom only gave him 10K, remember he started at 18K. My speed is up and I start again, trading speed for alt, working to place him at my Six.
His second dive looks a lot like the first. I match his nose down with reduced power until he is 1.5 to 2.0K out, go full power, nose down , hard right turn.
I’ve taken the fight lower, we are down in the mud and here is where I will remain. I’m about half his speed , he can’t match my turn, he begins his zooms.
His zoom takes him back up but he only manages 8.2 K, just short of his last perch at about 10K. I continue to slow , add flaps , I don’t have to wait long, he’s reasoned that his problem was his speed and starts to dive on my six.
Again I try for half his speed, with flaps out and a hard right turn, he misses , however, this time I pull up, climb, barrel role to my left. I’m given a nice view of his six, I close the distance of 600 feet and kill the 109G2. He had both the alt and speed advantage at the start.
The entire fight took 6 and a half minutes. I'm also the worst fighter pilot in the history of Aces High.
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Good read Traveler! :aok :salute
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Traveler,
I don't normally like to negatively critique others on the boards but your tactics are flawed in one major concern. You are trying to get yourself Co E or better with your opponent when defensive, slowing down and diving to purposely give up E and alt will get you killed to an experienced stick every time . The G2 died because he gave up his advantage, not because of your tactics. The break turn with the BRD, once he tries to saddle is the proper move once he's tries for this, but he blew most of his advantage to even try to saddle. You never mentioned what you were flying and what was the offset to your aircraft except alt. Same direction 7k over your head?, heading opposite direction?, 2.5k out 7k above? etc. All of these are critical in the first moves. If there was any offset, he would have to turn at least some to try and dive on you from the six, which case he's burning some speed. Or if he was far enough away a simple gradual turn into him to make him burn speed and alt for position the entire time you could be accelerating or in a slow climb (enough to maintain a good corner speed) to try and get Co-E. Also why would you go full power nose low for a break turn to avoid a shot?. You just gave up alt while increasing speed, which made your turning radius larger, this only helps if you got yourself way slow for a good turn speed to begin with. If he was coming in with that much smash and you kept track of your climb speed you should have easily been able to turn inside of him without giving up all that alt, some to get a good corner speed yes, but lots, no. Remember once you run out of alt you run out of a lot of options, your only choices are left and right and slow climb. Run out of alt and speed, you got yourself in a bad position.
TXDELTA,
Think back to the fights between me and Sik1, notice how if I stayed real aggressive from my perch Sik1 got co-E with me fairly quickly and blew very little alt through the entire fight. To the point we would end up in a rolling scissors in a fairly even match. Alt. is options, don't give up your options without fighting for them. Patience is one of your greatest assets when on defense, or offense for that matter. Traveler showed patience in his fight for the right time and right way to reverse, his opponent lost his and got killed for it.
:salute
BigRat
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Traveler,
I don't normally like to negatively critique others on the boards but your tactics are flawed in one major concern. You are trying to get yourself Co E or better with your opponent when defensive, slowing down and diving to purposely give up E and alt will get you killed to an experienced stick every time . The G2 died because he gave up his advantage, not because of your tactics. The break turn with the BRD, once he tries to saddle is the proper move once he's tries for this, but he blew most of his advantage to even try to saddle. You never mentioned what you were flying and what was the offset to your aircraft except alt. Same direction 7k over your head?, heading opposite direction?, 2.5k out 7k above? etc. All of these are critical in the first moves. If there was any offset, he would have to turn at least some to try and dive on you from the six, which case he's burning some speed. Or if he was far enough away a simple gradual turn into him to make him burn speed and alt for position the entire time you could be accelerating or in a slow climb (enough to maintain a good corner speed) to try and get Co-E. Also why would you go full power nose low for a break turn to avoid a shot?. You just gave up alt while increasing speed, which made your turning radius larger, this only helps if you got yourself way slow for a good turn speed to begin with. If he was coming in with that much smash and you kept track of your climb speed you should have easily been able to turn inside of him without giving up all that alt, some to get a good corner speed yes, but lots, no. Remember once you run out of alt you run out of a lot of options, your only choices are left and right and slow climb. Run out of alt and speed, you got yourself in a bad position.
TXDELTA,
Think back to the fights between me and Sik1, notice how if I stayed real aggressive from my perch Sik1 got co-E with me fairly quickly and blew very little alt through the entire fight. To the point we would end up in a rolling scissors in a fairly even match. Alt. is options, don't give up your options without fighting for them. Patience is one of your greatest assets when on defense, or offense for that matter. Traveler showed patience in his fight for the right time and right way to reverse, his opponent lost his and got killed for it.
:salute
BigRat
I was in a P38L, heavy. I'm always in a P38 of some kind. If you noticed, I told the OP that this is what I do, not that he should do it, and I also stated that I am the worst fighter pilot in Aces High, and have been for the last 15 years or so. I'm just here to have fun. But your statement that "when defensive, slowing down and diving to purposely give up E and alt will get you killed to an experienced stick every time ." is just not true and I have the films and AH videos to back my claims. Also "The G2 died because he gave up his advantage, not because of your tactics." You missed the point, my tactic was to get him to give up his advantage. Which he did. So saying my tactic was wrong, is just incorrect. I had a very nice long dog fight, some six and a half minutes long and it was fun. you can visit our squad pages, the films and videos are there, lots to look at and enjoy, the link is in my signature.
I think you can see it here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/n5bb44gztk66mm9/BobCat81.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/n5bb44gztk66mm9/BobCat81.ahf)
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Traveler,
Let me rephrase the "your tactic was wrong" to say if your goal was to bait him into a bad position, your tactic worked. But I'll stick with the experienced stick would not have been baited so easily, so you can't count on this working every time. I teach on the assumption that you will only be fighting good sticks, eg. mistakes are forced, rather then made with poor decisions. As we all know and have done, poor decisions have killed us more times, then probably poor flying, or better stick. But can't count on poor decisions of the other guy to keep us alive. Thus the reason I teach the tactics that I do, which keep your options high and your ability to fight and survive also high. I'm glad you had a fun fight and having fun is the important part, otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back :aok.
:salute
BigRat
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Traveler,
Let me rephrase the "your tactic was wrong" to say if your goal was to bait him into a bad position, your tactic worked. But I'll stick with the experienced stick would not have been baited so easily, so you can't count on this working every time. I teach on the assumption that you will only be fighting good sticks, eg. mistakes are forced, rather then made with poor decisions. As we all know and have done, poor decisions have killed us more times, then probably poor flying, or better stick. But can't count on poor decisions of the other guy to keep us alive. Thus the reason I teach the tactics that I do, which keep your options high and your ability to fight and survive also high. I'm glad you had a fun fight and having fun is the important part, otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back :aok.
:salute
BigRat
I reread this entire thread again. There are at least four other posters that offered up very similar advice as I did, yet you only took exception to my post, it may be my PTSD but I tend to take except to that.
Let’s look at the OP’s original request:
Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers that I can work on for manuevering against this?
What I noticed about his post was his use of some key words, like , panic, techniques and maneuvers, what I thought he was asking for was a Plan. That is what I offered him, your right, it might not work, might get him shot down, but at least he won’t just sit there fat, dumb and happy, expecting to be shot down. What I told him is what I do. My plan, not just to do a break turn, but my technique of slowing to half speed, when to reduce power and when to add power, about when to break turn, how far out do you let him close the distance before I turn . what airspeeds to use and when. You offered to let him ride along with you, that’s very nice, however, in AH2 the person riding along , his cockpit does not show functioning instruments. So he won’t know what airspeed or flap setting or anything else, the sight picture may or may not help due to lag. But you will be able to impress him with your aviation skill as you squad pretend to be the nme.
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It's always good to get another point of view. :salute
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Simply dive straight towards the ground i mean AS STEEP as you can and yank back on your joystick as hard as you can JUST before you hit the ground then watch the poor sap chasing you go straight into the ground BOOM no more bad guy :cheers:
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There are at least four other posters that offered up very similar advice as I did, yet you only took exception to my post
Traveler,
Nobody else here suggested diving and giving up 5,000 feet of altitude per defensive maneuver (which is what your suggestion and example film shows). That is what is different about your post and what BigRat is trying to point out to you.
How exactly do you know you are "half speed" to your attacker and why is that important?
Why give up 5K in alt, when an overshoot can be achieved without giving that up?
What do you do after you have given up all your alt and now have no airspace to dive out (as you were after two defensive moves in the film)?
What do you do when the attacker simply uses lag pursuit to stay behind you once you are reduced throttle, flaps out, barely above 100mph and on the deck?
BigRat is trying to help you. Instead of taking it personally, trying to defend your method and going so far as to insult him, you might try re-reading the thread in an effort understand what makes your suggestion different (and, yes, "flawed") compared to the other methods discussed and suggested here.
<S>
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Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers that I can work on for manuevering against this?
Check out the video I have posted in the films and screenshots. It's a long BnZ fight where I had to use every defense maneuver in the book. I hope this maybe help you get an idea of how to defend against BnZers and higher planes diving on you.
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Traveler,
Nobody else here suggested diving and giving up 5,000 feet of altitude per defensive maneuver (which is what your suggestion and example film shows). That is what is different about your post and what BigRat is trying to point out to you.
I said similar, not exactly what I suggested, but similar enough.
How exactly do you know you are "half speed" to your attacker and why is that important?
It’s my best guess.
Why give up 5K in alt, when an overshoot can be achieved without giving that up?
Why not, who said you can’t give up Alt ? if the result of my tactic is the other guy is dead, what’s wrong with it?
What do you do after you have given up all your alt and now have no airspace to dive out (as you were after two defensive moves in the film)?
I don’t know, as I said, I suck at this, but again, I didn’t have to do anything as the nme was dead. If I had spotted another nme up high I would have done the same thing to him.
What do you do when the attacker simply uses lag pursuit to stay behind you once you are reduced throttle, flaps out, barely above 100mph and on the deck?
I don’t know, ask BigRat, that wasn’t the question the OP was asking, I answered the OP’s question and presented a film of my doing just that, does it always work, of course not, but when I’m jumped by a guy with Alt and E, at least I have a plan, that’s what I believe that the OP was looking for. OH, wait, I had to look up Lag Pursuit, I’ed Barrel roll and reverse on him and kill him too.
BigRat is trying to help you. Instead of taking it personally, trying to defend your method and going so far as to insult him, you might try re-reading the thread in an effort understand what makes your suggestion different (and, yes, "flawed") compared to the other methods discussed and suggested here.
I didn’t ask for his help, the OP did and again Kingpin, if it worked, if it did exactly as I planned it would , it’s not flawed.
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Kingpin, if it worked, if it did exactly as I planned it would , it’s not flawed.
Just because something works once does not make it a valid method. If I told you that I once hit a baseball by swinging with my eyes closed, that would not make batting with your eyes closed a valid method -- it would be a flawed method. A better approach would be to keep your eyes open while trying to hit a baseball. Likewise, a better approach to defensive fighting is to keep as much energy (altitude) as you can and only give it up when you need to.
who said you can’t give up Alt ? if the result of my tactic is the other guy is dead, what’s wrong with it?
Nobody said you can't give up alt, but rather that you shouldn't give up so much alt unnecessarily. Altitude (potential energy) in an air combat environment is life -- it gives you options that you don't have once you give it up. Again, the flaw in your approach was only that you gave up 10,000 feet of altitude to avoid 2 passes from a single attacker. If you don't understand why that might be flawed, perhaps it might be a good topic for another thread. Feel free to ask.
I watched your film 3 times -- twice from your perspective and once from the attacker's perspective, pausing it several times to look at the E-states and geometry of the fight. After careful analysis, I can confidently tell you that the reason you won that fight was not due to your tactic of diving -- it was because the attacker made several mistakes much later, after it became a turning fight on the deck and you won the turning fight. Just as BigRat said, against a better pilot, that tactic is going to get you (and others who try to use it) killed more often than not. It also puts you in a bad spot for the next enemy who wanders along.
Please bear in mind that this is the Training Forum, not the General Forum. There is an effort (if not an obligation) to keep information here as accurate and as helpful as possible. If a trainer comments on or corrects something you say here, it is not meant as an attack on you personally. It is an effort to help everyone: you, the OP and anyone else who reads the thread. You may not accept the feedback, but it is important that others see it.
I appreciate you contributing to the conversation and especially taking the time to link to an AH Film (I wish more players would post AH films -- not YouTube videos -- as examples supporting their points.) Many of the other points you made in your post were great, such as pointing out how the attacker had less altitude (energy) after each attack -- you seem to get why that is important for him as the attacker, but not for you as the defender.
Hope this feedback helps!
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Dup post deleted.
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This is my last response, as it’s reached the point of being absolutely absurd.
You did analysis , are you kidding me?
Your analysis is flawed and here is why, you say you watched the AH film three times
Nobody said you can't give up alt, but rather that you shouldn't give up so much alt unnecessarily. Altitude (potential energy) in an air combat environment is life -- it gives you options that you don't have once you give it up. Again, the flaw in your approach was only that you gave up 10,000 feet of altitude to avoid 2 passes from a single attacker.
You have better watch the file again, the attacker made three passes, one from 18K one from 10K and the third form 8K, where he attempted a lag pursuit and ended up dead from my flawed tactic.
I’m done here.
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Y'all should check out the defense films I've posted in the "film's and screenshot" forum. They give a good idea on some of the manuevers that you can work on to beat diving planes on your 6.
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Y'all should check out the defense films I've posted in the "film's and screenshot" forum. They give a good idea on some of the manuevers that you can work on to beat diving planes on your 6.
Yes, excellent examples Vio! I particularly like this one against the Spit 8: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379683.0.html
In the second half of that film (where you finally reverse him and get a pilot wound on him) this is a really nice example of not needing to be considerably slower than the opponent to force an overshoot. You simply need to stay "out of plane" with him. You continue to roll your lift vector out of sync with his, then roll it back into and behind him forcing the overshoot and winning the brief tight rolling scissors. It's really a great example of what Puma and I were discussing earlier in this thread.
Another thing I like about BOTH the films you posted, is that there are multiple cons at the beginning, but you make your break turns and extensions specifically away from the second con, choosing a direction that keeps both enemy aircraft on your long six. This keeps you out of a 2v1 situation and allows you to work against a single con. This shows some good thinking and situational awareness. It is easy to get so focussed on defense against one attacker that you lose focus on the bigger picture, in this case extending out of the possible 2v1 or 3v1 situation. There's a great lesson in this: that situational awareness is as important as maneuvering, so that you can choose your maneuvers with a purpose -- in this case, choosing the direction of your maneuvers such that they move you away from the second enemy. Hopefully, that was all intentional! :)
Good stuff! Thanks for posting those films, Vio! (And for changing the subject :aok)
<S>
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Having read and watched Traveler, I can honestly say that I would not recommend that as a defensive manoeuvre because it relies on mistakes of the attacker.
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Mistakes are normal in fights. Most fights are won by the pilot making fewer mistakes. No mistakes is often a draw.
If TXDelta learned anything from Traveler's post then he's better off than he was.
He can also learn not to blow his energy unless it gets him the kill, in which case it's a good move. :aok
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Yes, excellent examples Vio! I particularly like this one against the Spit 8: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379683.0.html
In the second half of that film (where you finally reverse him and get a pilot wound on him) this is a really nice example of not needing to be considerably slower than the opponent to force an overshoot. You simply need to stay "out of plane" with him. You continue to roll your lift vector out of sync with his, then roll it back into and behind him forcing the overshoot and winning the brief tight rolling scissors. It's really a great example of what Puma and I were discussing earlier in this thread.
Another thing I like about BOTH the films you posted, is that there are multiple cons at the beginning, but you make your break turns and extensions specifically away from the second con, choosing a direction that keeps both enemy aircraft on your long six. This keeps you out of a 2v1 situation and allows you to work against a single con. This shows some good thinking and situational awareness. It is easy to get so focussed on defense against one attacker that you lose focus on the bigger picture, in this case extending out of the possible 2v1 or 3v1 situation. There's a great lesson in this: that situational awareness is as important as maneuvering, so that you can choose your maneuvers with a purpose -- in this case, choosing the direction of your maneuvers such that they move you away from the second enemy. Hopefully, that was all intentional! :)
Good stuff! Thanks for posting those films, Vio! (And for changing the subject :aok)
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Thank you Kingpin. This spit fight was one of my favorite films.
These types of films really helped me to learn situations. Also, great eye on the SA position. That's something I utilize very often in FSOs when the enemy is pouncing on us. Drag them out and get them away from friendlies.
My goal is to show people that defensive maneuvers do work, they make the fights exciting, you can get more kills, and you can find other alternatives to flying the fastest planes and hitting X key when someone jumps on your 6.
I appreciate the comments.
Note: my aim is not of subject hehehe
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Having read and watched Traveler, I can honestly say that I would not recommend that as a defensive manoeuvre because it relies on mistakes of the attacker.
More often than not, the first one to make a mistake loses the potential advantage and thus, the fight.
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This is my last response, as it’s reached the point of being absolutely absurd.
You did analysis , are you kidding me?
Your analysis is flawed and here is why, you say you watched the AH film three times
You have better watch the file again, the attacker made three passes, one from 18K one from 10K and the third form 8K, where he attempted a lag pursuit and ended up dead from my flawed tactic.
I’m done here.
I wish you wouldn't feel this way, Traveler. From an outsider's perspective it seems everyone offering (constructive) critique of your tactics has been respectful and courteous. They only wish to make you better. Allowing yourself to become upset over this is only really harming you in the end.
I'm positive you did a lot 'right' in that fight, and you have good reason to be proud of your performance. The improvements that others are suggesting does not take anything away from that. You did good but you can do better - much better - if you would simply entertain the ideas others are putting forward.
I hate to belabor the point, but I'm with everyone else... against a better opponent, your tactics would likely not have worked, and even if they did (as they did in your case), you're still leaving yourself in a very vulnerable state in the MA where 1-to-infinity cons could be right around the corner. Of course, if you're just in it for the fight and are OK with working from severe disadvantage this won't concern you. But most people prefer to land their hard-won kills instead of being gang-picked just shy of the runway.
If you ever want to go to the TA to work on this scenario (or others), I think it would be a lot of fun & a good learning experience for us both. I'll go at you with a 109 as long as you give me one or two other tries with a plane I'm used to flying! :) That way we'll likely both land some kills while hopefully stepping up our collective game. :cheers:
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Yes, excellent examples Vio! I particularly like this one against the Spit 8: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379683.0.html
In the second half of that film (where you finally reverse him and get a pilot wound on him) this is a really nice example of not needing to be considerably slower than the opponent to force an overshoot. You simply need to stay "out of plane" with him. You continue to roll your lift vector out of sync with his, then roll it back into and behind him forcing the overshoot and winning the brief tight rolling scissors. It's really a great example of what Puma and I were discussing earlier in this thread.
Another thing I like about BOTH the films you posted, is that there are multiple cons at the beginning, but you make your break turns and extensions specifically away from the second con, choosing a direction that keeps both enemy aircraft on your long six. This keeps you out of a 2v1 situation and allows you to work against a single con. This shows some good thinking and situational awareness. It is easy to get so focussed on defense against one attacker that you lose focus on the bigger picture, in this case extending out of the possible 2v1 or 3v1 situation. There's a great lesson in this: that situational awareness is as important as maneuvering, so that you can choose your maneuvers with a purpose -- in this case, choosing the direction of your maneuvers such that they move you away from the second enemy. Hopefully, that was all intentional! :)
Good stuff! Thanks for posting those films, Vio! (And for changing the subject :aok)
<S>
Your description of the video is GOOD STUFF! :salute: :cheers:
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This has been a pretty good thread to read and watch
I would however like to point out the proven fact that "ride alongs" for a student in the TA with a trainer working/flying against another trainer is completely different than what one normally sees in a "ride along" in the MA...
In the TA, during "ride alongs" , the trainers are instructing and teaching why - why not - when - where... in regards to SA , E management, Lift vector, AOA , separation, etc ad infinium ....
So, suggestions of getting with the AH Training staff in the TA, is spot on, correct and encouraged for helping a student learning... to "GET IT" more rapidly from being taught while visualizing the instruction by the trainers at the same time
Hope this helps
TC