What you see as an issue, many feel is a feature... If your wish were to come true, they may be upset by it.
Just a thought...
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Dobs on October 10, 2016, 11:25:25 AM
Why they call them enhancements in the software world.....
Usually collocated with the all the bugs written up.....delegated to places like this "wish list" due to resource requirements.
Sort of like being able to detune the 6-9 GV guys on range voice who are asking each other if they heard anything during a 20 plane furball over their head....we can always wish for an option to detune ground/detune air...and have "all" still as default. Doesn't mean you have to do it, just means it is available if you want to have it... a simple "Prompt for scoring options" box to check each time you click to go OTR.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Scca on October 10, 2016, 11:45:26 AM
Why they call them enhancements in the software world.....
Usually collocated with the all the bugs written up.....delegated to places like this "wish list" due to resource requirements.
Sort of like being able to detune the 6-9 GV guys on range voice who are asking each other if they heard anything during a 20 plane furball over their head....we can always wish for an option to detune ground/detune air...and have "all" still as default. Doesn't mean you have to do it, just means it is available if you want to have it... a simple "Prompt for scoring options" box to check each time you click to go OTR.
I see this has been moved to the wishlist forum, from the bug reports, makes more sense here... With that, I less inclined to support it. I personally hate bug prompts like that.
BTW, if you don't want to hear others opinions like FLS, you should just email HTC with your wish. Or is it that you don't like opinions that don't agree with yours? If that's the case, I willingly accept you adding me to your ignore list. Sad though it is. The vets can really help you...
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 10, 2016, 12:07:30 PM
It would be a nice quality of life feature to have in game but it's a feature that I could do with or without. I've already trained myself after years of experience just to do a mental checklist before I take off. It also helps that I only use P-38L for attack sorties and P-38J for fighter sorties so if I pick the L, it's already scored as attack and when I pick the J model, it's always scored as fighter.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: LCADolby on October 10, 2016, 12:19:31 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Dobs on October 10, 2016, 12:36:15 PM
I see this has been moved to the wishlist forum, from the bug reports, makes more sense here... With that, I less inclined to support it. I personally hate bug prompts like that.
BTW, if you don't want to hear others opinions like FLS, you should just email HTC with your wish. Or is it that you don't like opinions that don't agree with yours? If that's the case, I willingly accept you adding me to your ignore list. Sad though it is. The vets can really help you...
The amount of help he has provided has been minimal...
If you actually read the post...you'll see there is an option to enable the prompt...defaulted "as it currently is", so for those who hate to experience anything new, you don't have to. For those of us who aren't perfect and don't have a plane for every mission, and hate finding out after a few hours of playing that you've been flying under "attack" scoring, its just an "OPTION" to remind us.
Or I could just wait a few years and go with this..." I've already trained myself after years of experience just to do a mental checklist before I take off."
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 10, 2016, 01:19:50 PM
The amount of help he has provided has been minimal...
That's not true. Even you should be able to see that if not admit it.
Asking politely works but I'll make it easy for you. Wish granted if you aren't posting in Help and Training. :aok
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: guncrasher on October 10, 2016, 02:44:16 PM
i up with rockets in fighter mode to vulch. i also up with no tickets or bombs to deack fields or kill m3's if ords are down.
best to have a check list if you forget.
semp
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 10, 2016, 03:22:07 PM
Dobs, I have wished for this before myself. Let me break down why it probably will never get added. First, furballs are a big part of AH. While the same cannot be said about WWII (not many furball missions), nevertheless it is true of this game. The one thing that distinguishes a gamer from an historical participant is score. Those that prefer the furball claim that the people wishing to 'clean up' their scores by correcting this problem with 'fighter' vs 'attack' would only increase the variance between the furball aficionado and the historical aficionado vis-à-vis score. So really, the guys that hate score are arguing on the basis of score.
Historically, it wouldn't matter. A mission is a mission, but the official record would indicate what type of mission you were on and which kills resulted. So, in the end the real problem is that the game does not distinguish one type of kill from another, and so you have to choose before you launch. I think that the attack category should have greater weight of influence on the score page, precisely because you are carrying bombs, and rockets. However, the launch button has weight now because otherwise it would also have to track each bomb or rocket you just dropped as you were engaged. I hope that makes sense to you.
Just wait until you repeatedly rearm for 20-30 kills and then discover you are in fighter mode. Yeh, . . . I'll just go ahead and take those kills now. . .
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Randy1 on October 10, 2016, 03:51:12 PM
I had wished, for the same thing Dobs a couple of years ago.
Like Ack-Ack, I keep the J model in fighter and the L model in attack. With the P-47 the D stays in attack and all others in fighter. About the same with the F4Us.
Not what I prefer but it works.
I can not remember any negative comments on my wish back then. It seemed to only be a problem to those of us who fly in the attack mode nearly as much or more than fighter mode.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Dobs on October 10, 2016, 03:53:03 PM
Chalenge,
I figured it was easier to ask for an option, then to try to change scoring methodology.
To me, you kill a ground target you get an attack score...if it is a GV, a gun, a building or whatnot...if it is attached to the ground it is a attack points.
The opposite holds true....if I'm loaded for bear with rox and bombs and happen upon a low C-47 and I shoot it down....I don't expect to get attack points, but fighter points for an aerial kill.
If they made this, you could distinguish between guys killing GVS over and over again under fighter score, and fighters killing aerial vehicles ....but I elected not to go that route, but ask for a simple option that I have to enable to prompt me each time I roll as to how I want to score my sortie.
Thank you for the response, and to be honest I use score right now as a measure of improvement.... once I get more than a month under my belt I might look at it differently.
Cheers! Dobs
And noted...no more posting under Help and training.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 10, 2016, 04:11:39 PM
The real shocker will come when you realize that popup is already there, but only on missions. Or, at least it was.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 10, 2016, 04:33:08 PM
The opposite holds true....if I'm loaded for bear with rox and bombs and happen upon a low C-47 and I shoot it down....I don't expect to get attack points, but fighter points for an aerial kill.
And when I shoot buildings and get an aerial kill?
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: EskimoJoe on October 10, 2016, 04:52:43 PM
It blows my mind that some people can't be bothered to look at a box and click a button when choosing their ride. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: ImADot on October 10, 2016, 05:08:25 PM
I guess I'll have to take a refresher look at sortie type and scores. It seems to me that the only real difference was how bullet hit percentage was calculated. If you strafe ground targets in fighter mode, your fighter hit percentage took a big dump, because fighter sorties only counted hits against other planes. Attack sorties factored in everything.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 10, 2016, 05:47:26 PM
I guess I'll have to take a refresher look at sortie type and scores. It seems to me that the only real difference was how bullet hit percentage was calculated. If you strafe ground targets in fighter mode, your fighter hit percentage took a big dump, because fighter sorties only counted hits against other planes. Attack sorties factored in everything.
Also, in fighter mode kills of vehicles will not count for score (but gun hits on them will still count for hit% though!).
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: TheRapier on October 10, 2016, 08:33:46 PM
Since this has devolved into a debate about a specific feature which is a toggle between attack and fighter IMHO it is really about how the game is designed.
If you want to ask for something more radical and imminently more usable, how about ground targets are scored in attack and air to air targets scored as fighter? As mentioned upstream, in the war they didn't divide the missions in this totally artificial method.
If you kill a GV, its kind of hard to call it air to air. If you kill a plane its hard to call it a GV.
Why on earth do you make the pilot decide IN ADVANCE what kind of flight they will have? They don't know what they will hit once in the air. Why make it that way?
I think you'd see a lot more people switching roles if the scoring was more appropriate. Right now you are locked in and you shoot yourself in the foot if you change your mind while in flight. That is just bad and counter intuitive. Help the user choices instead of blocking them.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 11, 2016, 02:17:31 AM
Since this has devolved into a debate about a specific feature which is a toggle between attack and fighter IMHO it is really about how the game is designed.
If you want to ask for something more radical and imminently more usable, how about ground targets are scored in attack and air to air targets scored as fighter? As mentioned upstream, in the war they didn't divide the missions in this totally artificial method.
Yo would have to come up with a totally different scoring system them. Because like I asked before, what do you do when you score both aerial and ground kills? Score them on both? And what's with your sortie tally, do you count it as an attack sortie and a fighter sortie at the same time? And your sortie time, will it be added to both categories as well? Because if not, you have a tool of greatly skewing your scores because of the k/s and k/h categories. If yes, you suddenly have twice the sorties and played hours you actually did. In both cases, it's going to be a mess.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Randall172 on October 11, 2016, 09:28:33 AM
get rid of separate scoring and separate perks.
There should be a single type of perk, "spawn points" would be a good name for the new currency with which you can spawn "better'" vehicles.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: The Fugitive on October 11, 2016, 10:34:02 AM
I look at it as a "pre flight" check thing. Much like the decision on which plane, which skin, fuel load, drop tank or no.
I do think the popup window you get when you are part of a mission to score the mission as fighter or attack would be a cool thing to add for all fighter sorties, but it also isnt the big a deal to me.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 11, 2016, 02:07:47 PM
To everyone saying it's a pre flight check thing....Some take score seriously, whether they want to compete for the top score or if it's used as their base line for their own progress....they take it seriously.
The fighter score is easily manipulated, Heck VansCrew did an entire write up on the POTW site on how to get near rank 1 in every category....IE only up in Fighter mode if you know you are going to get kills AKA vulching.
I personally think that if you have Bombs on your aircraft....that run should be counted as Attack If you don't have bombs on...you are automatically put as Fighter unless you specifcally change it to attack after(upping a porker from a field without ords.)
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 11, 2016, 02:24:45 PM
A sticky note on your monitor is the easy fix.
In the serious points competition remembering to set your switches counts.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Randy1 on October 11, 2016, 03:09:52 PM
I tried running the P-38L for two tours with the idea I could easily develop a habit to switch scoring modes. I probably got it right 70% of the time at best.
Much like forgetting to release a drop tank, in the heat of battle, one loses focus..
It has always made sense to be if you load ords you are in the attack mode.
My guess the players that do not see this as a problem, rarely use ords on fighters.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Oldman731 on October 11, 2016, 04:22:04 PM
To everyone saying it's a pre flight check thing....Some take score seriously, whether they want to compete for the top score or if it's used as their base line for their own progress....they take it seriously.
So they should have no problem incorporating the selection in their checklist!
- oldman
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: guncrasher on October 11, 2016, 04:42:23 PM
So they should have no problem incorporating the selection in their checklist!
- oldman
there's nothing to fix other than remembering if you fly fighter mode then use fighter mode.
semp
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 05:12:25 PM
Everyone posting about checklists....my argument is that it's easy to up in attack mode without having any intention on engaging ground targets....meaning if you get killed without any kills on boars your fighter score isn't hurt. Bunch of broken records who think everything is fine an dandy... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2016, 05:21:40 PM
Everyone posting about checklists....my argument is that it's easy to up in attack mode without having any intention on engaging ground targets....meaning if you get killed without any kills on boars your fighter score isn't hurt. Bunch of broken records who think everything is fine an dandy... :rolleyes:
How is that hurting you?
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 13, 2016, 05:36:14 PM
I know many players are competitive for rank (if you don't think so there's at least 100 of them...just by looking at scores for milk runs) so my suggestion is a way to give the ranking system more integrity. Part of the reason I don't play for rank anymore is because of how easily manipulated it is....remember the CHog vulch days....yea all the "hog pilots" in the top 50 still do the same thing....no skill in it...aka no competition...aka boring rank structure.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 05:39:52 PM
True, but K/D isn't as big of factor in the Attack score because of damage
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 05:48:18 PM
Just looked at the top 50 in fighters....I have to ask FLS...you think Fighter score isn't broke looking at those names??? Come on man, get off the everything is fine and dandy train
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 13, 2016, 05:57:47 PM
Just looked at the top 50 in fighters....I have to ask FLS...you think Fighter score isn't broke looking at those names??? Come on man, get off the everything is fine and dandy train
What's wrong with those names?
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 13, 2016, 06:02:54 PM
I remember a similar discussion many years ago, maybe 8 or so. Was going along similar lines "lamers using attack mode to protect their fighter rank", "vulchers at the top" and so on. I combined fighter and attack stats for all the pilots and then ranked them again. As far as I remember, the actual difference between this combined rank and the singular fighter rank was surprisingly small for the top pilots.
Maybe I can dig that one up again... :headscratch:
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 13, 2016, 06:07:22 PM
You're talking about 2009? Hehe, I remember those days.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2016, 07:00:15 PM
Just looked at the top 50 in fighters....I have to ask FLS...you think Fighter score isn't broke looking at those names??? Come on man, get off the everything is fine and dandy train
You say there is a problem but you don't say what it is.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 07:38:01 PM
Fighter rank easy to manipulate....thought that was pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 07:44:32 PM
I remember a similar discussion many years ago, maybe 8 or so. Was going along similar lines "lamers using attack mode to protect their fighter rank", "vulchers at the top" and so on. I combined fighter and attack stats for all the pilots and then ranked them again. As far as I remember, the actual difference between this combined rank and the singular fighter rank was surprisingly small for the top pilots.
Maybe I can dig that one up again... :headscratch:
Let me search for VansCrew's number 1 in every category(maybe except for 1) He was a prime example for my argument because(yes he was overall a good stick) he made a thread where he explained he only upped in Fighter mode when he knew he was going to get a lot of kills quickly. Don't understand how people don't think fighter mode is easily manipulated honestly.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 13, 2016, 08:04:35 PM
It's not easily manipulated. His argument was flawed in that he presupposed that the chance to get lots of kills will happen every time you are online. It won't.
The only thing that is true about fighter ranks is that everyone in the upper ranks has the same problem that every ace throughout history has had. There will be people gunning for you (literally) and any noob in the arena with the option to shoot you, can kill you as easily as you kill anyone else.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2016, 08:19:43 PM
Fighter rank easy to manipulate....thought that was pretty obvious.
It's not obvious at all. You believe that flying an attack aircraft in attack mode and not getting a fighter score is manipulating the fighter score. Lusche pointed out that it only manipulates your attack score. A fighter score requires flying in fighter mode. Your complaint seems to be that nobody is forced to fly attack aircraft in fighter mode.
Why that is a problem which concerns you?
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Vraciu on October 13, 2016, 08:55:37 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Vraciu on October 13, 2016, 08:56:12 PM
In the serious points competition remembering to set your switches counts.
Running a flow with switches is a far cry from point and click with a mouse.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Vraciu on October 13, 2016, 09:02:50 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 09:14:33 PM
A person with 5 sortie 10+ K/D 10 K/H High accuracy will have a better score then a guy who has 200 sortie 5 K/D 9 K/H....and I bet in one of the 5 sorties they killed the same person 5+ times in a consecutive order...example in the fighter score right now...Blade. (not a hack or a discredit to him but he killed the same person over and over)
Who's the better pilot, the guy who ups 5 times at fights which are "better" for their score(which only takes map awareness)....or the guy who goes and out flys their opponent?
FLS, you keep asking "what it matters to me".....look at the first 2 lines of my sig and I HOPE you will understand why I have an interest in the competitive side of dog fighting.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: The Fugitive on October 13, 2016, 10:01:19 PM
A person with 5 sortie 10+ K/D 10 K/H High accuracy will have a better score then a guy who has 200 sortie 5 K/D 9 K/H....and I bet in one of the 5 sorties they killed the same person 5+ times in a consecutive order...example in the fighter score right now...Blade. (not a hack or a discredit to him but he killed the same person over and over)
Who's the better pilot, the guy who ups 5 times at fights which are "better" for their score(which only takes map awareness)....or the guy who goes and out flys their opponent?
FLS, you keep asking "what it matters to me".....look at the first 2 lines of my sig and I HOPE you will understand why I have an interest in the competitive side of dog fighting.
So how would you set up scoring so it couldn't be manipulated?
V said a hit is a hit and should be counted that way. How much you want to bet we'll see guys strafing builds instead of fight just to inflate their hit percentage.
I think with the way it is set up now, with so many categories.... aka variables, it makes it harder to manipulate score. Do something to tweak one aspect, and you hurt another. Can you manipulate the score? Sure, but you have to work at it. Personally I work enough during the day, I don't plan on working when Im suppose to be playing.
Again, it is one of the ways SOME people want to play the game. Just like some like to fight, and others like to run.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 10:06:41 PM
Limit consecutive kills of the same pilot to 3 in a certain time period for kills toward score in Fighter mode...still get the perks but have it set like proxies where you see "kills not counted toward score" on the score page.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2016, 10:16:59 PM
A person with 5 sortie 10+ K/D 10 K/H High accuracy will have a better score then a guy who has 200 sortie 5 K/D 9 K/H....and I bet in one of the 5 sorties they killed the same person 5+ times in a consecutive order...example in the fighter score right now...Blade. (not a hack or a discredit to him but he killed the same person over and over)
Who's the better pilot, the guy who ups 5 times at fights which are "better" for their score(which only takes map awareness)....or the guy who goes and out flys their opponent?
FLS, you keep asking "what it matters to me".....look at the first 2 lines of my sig and I HOPE you will understand why I have an interest in the competitive side of dog fighting.
You really think score tells you who's a better pilot?
Rank is part of the game, ranking uses rules that are the same for everybody.
My question is not why you care or why it concerns you, my question is what is wrong with it.
I keep asking you what the problem is because I'm not sure you know. If you know something you can explain it. Am I right?
I believe you don't like it and want to change it but I don't think you've thought it through to the point you understand it. If you did you could explain it. You state things that are obvious but you don't explain why it's wrong.
For example you might say it's not fair to people who only fly planes that don't have an attack mode. Then there would be something to discuss.
Just saying it's wrong that people can fly attack mode and not attack anything except aircraft doesn't explain the problem with it.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 13, 2016, 10:27:42 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2016, 10:46:28 PM
The overall score does tell you who the better players are. There is also dueling and KOTH.
Apparently your concern is that you're better than people ranked higher than you. You see that as a problem to be fixed by limiting what they can do.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2016, 11:01:57 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 14, 2016, 12:21:23 AM
Score tells you who had the time, ability, and motivation to get the high score and who didn't.
The complaint that the game is flawed because it doesn't properly showcase someone's ability has appeared many times in many forms.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Bruv119 on October 14, 2016, 01:24:24 AM
we need a russian judge to score the ACM used per kill and it's technical attributes.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 14, 2016, 01:32:46 AM
Yeah, yeah.
The whole fighter mode argument doesn't carry weight, anyway. The whole point of the game is to capture fields and win the war. If, you fly nothing but fighter mode, then you will not shoot buildings. So, you are either not playing the game by furballing, or you are vultching people to protect the guys in GVs or goons. Since you hold your nose at the idea of vultching (the grand prize of AH), all you are doing is furballing. Furballing is not playing the game, so why should you be rewarded at all?
Thus the ranking system.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 14, 2016, 01:48:52 AM
Score tells you who had the time, ability, and motivation to get the high score
Sometimes not even the motivation.
'Fighter mode' has been my primary bomber hunting mode like forever, and I had been at pretty much the same (and lately even declining) skill level at this. In the beginning it gave me quite a good fighter score and rank, but only with a changing MA environment I suddenly found myself at #1 a few times. Without having changed a thing with my flying. You could almost say the environment adjusted to my flying, not the other way around ;)
This tour my rank is a lot lower again so far. And again not because I changed anything, but because I could not find my usual targets as often.
Limit consecutive kills of the same pilot to 3 in a certain time period for kills toward score in Fighter mode.
And what's the next step? Each time I was #1 in fighter (13 times), the huge majority of my kills had been bombers. You could easily argue that this is 'gaming the score' just like vulching, as it's an easy way to boost hit% and kill score points (I get about three times as many of them per kill than a pure furballer). And you arguably need much less dogfighting skill for that compared to fighter vs fighter combat. So I'd suggest not scoring bomber kills either. And then the next loophole. And the next... until you get the 'right' names at the top ;)
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 14, 2016, 02:00:58 AM
Score tells you who had the time, ability, and motivation to get the high score and who didn't.
The complaint that the game is flawed because it doesn't properly showcase someone's ability has appeared many times in many forms.
You don't need much time to up a Tempest 5 times and get 8 kills a run at a near vulch.....you don't need much ability....and to be honest who wants to compete against someone doing that??? Nearly every tour there is a few of those guys in the top 50....not hard.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 14, 2016, 07:02:01 AM
The whole fighter mode argument doesn't carry weight, anyway. The whole point of the game is to capture fields and win the war. If, you fly nothing but fighter mode, then you will not shoot buildings. So, you are either not playing the game by furballing, or you are vultching people to protect the guys in GVs or goons. Since you hold your nose at the idea of vultching (the grand prize of AH), all you are doing is furballing. Furballing is not playing the game, so why should you be rewarded at all?
Thus the ranking system.
The game isn't about engaging in WW2 combat in different forms??? I always thought the war was there to create combat.....HTC can we have clarification on that..
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 14, 2016, 07:13:28 AM
'Fighter mode' has been my primary bomber hunting mode like forever, and I had been at pretty much the same (and lately even declining) skill level at this. In the beginning it gave me quite a good fighter score and rank, but only with a changing MA environment I suddenly found myself at #1 a few times. Without having changed a thing with my flying. You could almost say the environment adjusted to my flying, not the other way around ;)
This tour my rank is a lot lower again so far. And again not because I changed anything, but because I could not find my usual targets as often.
And what's the next step? Each time I was #1 in fighter (13 times), the huge majority of my kills had been bombers. You could easily argue that this is 'gaming the score' just like vulching, as it's an easy way to boost hit% and kill score points (I get about three times as many of them per kill than a pure furballer). And you arguably need much less dogfighting skill for that compared to fighter vs fighter combat. So I'd suggest not scoring bomber kills either. And then the next loophole. And the next... until you get the 'right' names at the top ;)
Like all games and their ranking systems there's a point where you just can't make up for it being a game...CSGO is one of the most competitive games in Esports and it's Global Elite should be filled with pro CSGO players but even some of them have problems getting in it because 1...helps to play matchmaking comp matches which they don't and 2...CSGO has a lot of hackers VAC.
Attacking buffs you take a different risk especially if you aren't in a plane designed to kill bombers....what are those planes normally bad at?? Killing fighters....So you are still risking in someone to better your score. So killing buffs is definitely part of fighter mode....your accuracy goes up but K/T goes down. Limiting consecutive kills of a player to a certain time only removes vulching or a straight up skill level gap kill spree from score...If it does anything else that you can think of I'm all ears but the excuse not to do something because it may lead to this that or this is getting old with this community. We got 5 or 6 guys...FLS being one of them who look at every wish on gameplay and say the game is fine the way it is without making any counter argument...at all.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 14, 2016, 07:36:48 AM
i used to fly for score just to see how easy it was. when we used to have 600 players i would score pretty good and everybody knows how good i am.
semp
I'd say getting rank 1 overall is hard and competitive but what I'm looking for is a more competitive top 50 in fighters (I'd be down to discuss anything that makes any of the other categories more competitive) My suggestion definitely could help this for fighters and the only argument against is the downward spiral effect which is used in every discussion about all the wishes on the bbs.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 14, 2016, 10:15:25 AM
The game isn't about engaging in WW2 combat in different forms??? I always thought the war was there to create combat.....HTC can we have clarification on that..
Aside from the unsuccessful 'Circus' missions (an attempt to furball) there were no furballs. Furballs were part of WW1, not WW2.
The Aces High version of furball is a continuous low altitude scrap. That specifically never happened at all.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 14, 2016, 12:24:36 PM
A furball over the skies of London during the BoB (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03440/contrail_chaos_3440631b.jpg)
Sorry, not the same thing. We get escort/intercept missions all the time, but that's not a furball.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Dobs on October 14, 2016, 02:13:17 PM
When you read the accounts of most WWII pilots, it usually goes something like "We merged with 80+ fighters, and one minute there was fighters all over the place and the next the sky was empty!" .
Age old addage of "If you anchor, you die" applied even there:) They didn't have neon billboards or Fighter Data Link for SA:)
But that is boring and people want to fight....and there is nothing more challenging than solving the air to air puzzle...its like chess at "Hammy drinks a coke" speed:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-eMdMsMgCU&list=TLMCX_Bik-T3k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-eMdMsMgCU&list=TLMCX_Bik-T3k) For those that don't get the reference:)
For the arm chair generals....go for it! But don't think your game is the game everyone wants to play......if it was it be called "RISK" vs "ACES HIGH".
Cheers! Dobs
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lazerr on October 14, 2016, 02:14:14 PM
FYI.. currently if you are in either fighter or attack mode, and you click the mode you are currently selected in, it switches to the other mode.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 14, 2016, 02:16:24 PM
It's been like that forever I think.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: 10thmd on October 14, 2016, 02:22:43 PM
I found the game much more enjoyable once I forgot about score all together. I haven't changed between fighter and attack settings on planes in years.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: The Fugitive on October 14, 2016, 03:24:26 PM
Limit consecutive kills of the same pilot to 3 in a certain time period for kills toward score in Fighter mode...still get the perks but have it set like proxies where you see "kills not counted toward score" on the score page.
And that would hurt some pilots. EX, I was fighting Violator in 109s one afternoon. Not much else going on and I figured it was a good opportunity to learn a thing or two against one of the better 109 sticks. I came back time after time, him killing me every time. So with his much better skill, all scoring stops for him because he killed more than 3 times in a row? :O
For everyway you can think up to make scoring seem more "fair", or even handed, the community will be able to post a half dozen ways it could be gamed, or have unintended results. The system in place is not perfect, but it IS the same for everyone. If you want to spend the time to tweak your score, you too can be on the leader board. If on the other hand you couldn't care less about the score board, it isn't going to hurt your game play by NOT tweaking your score.
AH has many ways to play the game, GVs, bombing, capturing bases, and yes, climbing the scoreboard.
As to see who is "the best of the best!" <----- name the movie the quote is from, that is not what the scores are for. If you want to see who is the best, challenge everyone. I know Im not the best, so I concede to your superior skill. See 1 down, just a few thousand more to go!
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 14, 2016, 04:08:02 PM
And that would hurt some pilots. EX, I was fighting Violator in 109s one afternoon. Not much else going on and I figured it was a good opportunity to learn a thing or two against one of the better 109 sticks. I came back time after time, him killing me every time. So with his much better skill, all scoring stops for him because he killed more than 3 times in a row? :O
For everyway you can think up to make scoring seem more "fair", or even handed, the community will be able to post a half dozen ways it could be gamed, or have unintended results. The system in place is not perfect, but it IS the same for everyone. If you want to spend the time to tweak your score, you too can be on the leader board. If on the other hand you couldn't care less about the score board, it isn't going to hurt your game play by NOT tweaking your score.
AH has many ways to play the game, GVs, bombing, capturing bases, and yes, climbing the scoreboard.
As to see who is "the best of the best!" <----- name the movie the quote is from, that is not what the scores are for. If you want to see who is the best, challenge everyone. I know Im not the best, so I concede to your superior skill. See 1 down, just a few thousand more to go!
Men in Black for the quote ;)
So you and Violator were the only 2 at the fight? he wasn't killing anyone else in between fighting you? Sounds like the DA and shouldn't be scored...he(judging by the thread he made similar to this) would agree with me. A lot of times I've found myself getting PMs of how'd you do this/that and the person keeps coming back and asking questions....I dont consider that a time for scoring more of a time for the other to learn especially if its just 1v1 over and over. A player landed 19 kills a few weeks ago in a single N1K sortie....17 of them were the same pilot up from the same field over and over....Ammo conservation is hard at that point but the act of beating someone over and over again who is not the same tier player as you is not hard and shouldn't be awarded in a ranking system. IMO of course.
Personally I don't need a score to tell me where I stack up or to fight anyone to see where I am amongst the crowd...pretty comfortable sitting at the good but not THAT good table. I see a overhaul of the rank system as a way new players coming to the game from say War thunder to find interest in AH....don't get me wrong this isn't a top of the list things to change in my book but if a thread about a certain thing is brought up I will discuss it.
Thanks for your discussion :salute
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: The Fugitive on October 14, 2016, 05:32:22 PM
So you and Violator were the only 2 at the fight? he wasn't killing anyone else in between fighting you? Sounds like the DA and shouldn't be scored...he(judging by the thread he made similar to this) would agree with me. A lot of times I've found myself getting PMs of how'd you do this/that and the person keeps coming back and asking questions....I dont consider that a time for scoring more of a time for the other to learn especially if its just 1v1 over and over. A player landed 19 kills a few weeks ago in a single N1K sortie....17 of them were the same pilot up from the same field over and over....Ammo conservation is hard at that point but the act of beating someone over and over again who is not the same tier player as you is not hard and shouldn't be awarded in a ranking system. IMO of course.
Personally I don't need a score to tell me where I stack up or to fight anyone to see where I am amongst the crowd...pretty comfortable sitting at the good but not THAT good table. I see a overhaul of the rank system as a way new players coming to the game from say War thunder to find interest in AH....don't get me wrong this isn't a top of the list things to change in my book but if a thread about a certain thing is brought up I will discuss it.
Thanks for your discussion :salute
I think the bolded part is the biggest issue here, your opinion. You look at a pilot and judge his/her skills on perimeters that YOU think are relevant, and ignore those that YOU think are not. Other look at them differently. Guys that play like ROCKY think he is what they should be shooting for as a top pilot because that type of BnZ is what THEY think is relevant.
HTC's scoring system, while "tweakable" by players still covers a wider base, and "averages" a players score to a numbers of fields and ranks them. Again, it has nothing to do with skill, its how you play the game.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 16, 2016, 08:30:15 AM
I think the bolded part is the biggest issue here, your opinion. You look at a pilot and judge his/her skills on perimeters that YOU think are relevant, and ignore those that YOU think are not. Other look at them differently. Guys that play like ROCKY think he is what they should be shooting for as a top pilot because that type of BnZ is what THEY think is relevant.
HTC's scoring system, while "tweakable" by players still covers a wider base, and "averages" a players score to a numbers of fields and ranks them. Again, it has nothing to do with skill, its how you play the game.
I understand the full spectrum of air combat in Aces High better then most....Rocky is an efficient killer absolutely and his score should reflect that efficiency which it does currently....putting a restriction on killing the same person over and over (for score purpose only) shouldn't effect his levels of killing to a point where it lowers his rank.
4 Different pilots 4 different types of fighting styles Rocky-Pony Pilot effective BnZ tactics StarFox- E fighter searching for red guys. Bruv119- Overall pilot sceme, good at all forms of Air Combat Snailman- Strat player...most hunts bombers incoming to strats
My suggestion doesn't take away from any of there ways of fighting air to air combat, unless they are vulching(which happens from time to time :devil) its not an opinion of fighting styles or which is "best" IMO...everyone can be successful in their own way. I just don't think the guys who show up for the vulchs should be in the top 50....which they are right now. No skill killing a plane rolling down a runway, think we can all agree with that...and if you don't agree with that they are either a troll or not very good at Aces High.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: The Fugitive on October 16, 2016, 08:54:02 AM
Of corse your way will mess with those guys scores. If Rocky is aroumd and a low furball is going on im sure he will get me a bunch of tiles in his pony. So once he gets me 3 times i can now completely ignore tbe high pony knowing im screwing up his score if he picks me any more?
The same goes for snail, im sure he has shot down the same guys buf 2 or 3 times on a fuel run, that could be 9 kills. You want him to rtb in the middle of his patrol so he can keep scoring?
As i said before. The score is an average of a players activity in the game. You will NEVER put a score page.up that will show a players skill in the game, only his skill at scoring.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 16, 2016, 12:35:38 PM
Of corse your way will mess with those guys scores. If Rocky is aroumd and a low furball is going on im sure he will get me a bunch of tiles in his pony. So once he gets me 3 times i can now completely ignore tbe high pony knowing im screwing up his score if he picks me any more?
The same goes for snail, im sure he has shot down the same guys buf 2 or 3 times on a fuel run, that could be 9 kills. You want him to rtb in the middle of his patrol so he can keep scoring?
As i said before. The score is an average of a players activity in the game. You will NEVER put a score page.up that will show a players skill in the game, only his skill at scoring.
consecutive being the key word in my argument, Rocky might kill you 2 or 3 times but while you were rolling on the runway he probably killed someone else...I know it would eliminate all vulching being in score but would definitely help take some out of it....to include occasions when 1 good pilot is just killing one guy over and over in the same sortie. I don't see how it would make you as the pilot being attacked have to worry any different from normal incoming bandit...even if you know hes killed you 3 times in a row...he is still trying to kill you.
I absolutely disagree that you can't find a way to match score to skill...I don't know what it would take to get score to that point but I know for sure this would create less gaming the system in place now.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 16, 2016, 02:17:28 PM
The score method that HiTech has used for AH is basically using statistical analysis to correct for pattern deviations like regressive actions. The corrective force is ENY. Regressive actions would be actions like furballs, which remove players from actively participating in the game as a whole. Furballs are a minor part of the game. There is no corrective force that can cause people to only furball, except by creating a dueling arena (which you have).
You are free to consider any scoring method you like that will make you feel better about yourself, but forcing a change to score to favor your level of participation in the game will never happen.
BTW, I had a sortie on Mindanao several years back whereby I shot down SkatSR five times. It was not vulching, as I was escorting bombers and then engaged in a low level disengagement exercise with about thirty enemy forces trying to prevent our survival. SkatSR even had altitude advantage a few times before he chose poorly in his attack method. By your argument I would have lost those few extra kills. No thank you.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 16, 2016, 02:54:31 PM
The score method that HiTech has used for AH is basically using statistical analysis to correct for pattern deviations like regressive actions. The corrective force is ENY. Regressive actions would be actions like furballs, which remove players from actively participating in the game as a whole. Furballs are a minor part of the game. There is no corrective force that can cause people to only furball, except by creating a dueling arena (which you have).
You are free to consider any scoring method you like that will make you feel better about yourself, but forcing a change to score to favor your level of participation in the game will never happen.
BTW, I had a sortie on Mindanao several years back whereby I shot down SkatSR five times. It was not vulching, as I was escorting bombers and then engaged in a low level disengagement exercise with about thirty enemy forces trying to prevent our survival. SkatSR even had altitude advantage a few times before he chose poorly in his attack method. By your argument I would have lost those few extra kills. No thank you.
What was the time period between the kills? I doubt it was less then 5 minutes if your claim he had an alt advantage coming in is true....
Nothing to do with furballing btw so not sure why you keep bringing that up...you are right the game is not just about furballing, I agree with you...IF you somehow think I only want a furball please re look at all my posts and find where I have said anything of the sort...
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 16, 2016, 04:54:09 PM
Like I said it was on Mindanao, and no a P-51 (Skat's an my own favorite) doesn't climb very fast. It's been too many years now to remember precisely, but from memory we were trying to egress and I had members of my own squad that kept going in low to an area that was covered by the ingress from an enemy field. The details of that sortie are not as important as what you said about taking kills out of the formula if you repeatedly killed someone. That's just not right.
As to your not 'furballing' statement, it doesn't matter. You are trying to favor your own style above that of other players. HiTech simply will not change things on that basis. He has said so many, many times already.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 16, 2016, 11:06:51 PM
Regressive actions would be actions like furballs, which remove players from actively participating in the game as a whole.
It's not for you to say what the game is about. That's for individuals to interpret for themselves. Perhaps you're inferring from an elemental scoring system how to behave in a virtual environment which allows any number of simultaneous activities. That's some woeful reasoning. Some are simply saying that the scoring system doesn't comment very much on their activities and they're right. That's why there's a cohort of players who ignore it. There's also a cohort who use their score to infer more than it actually means.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 17, 2016, 12:12:25 AM
Except you can tell from the fact that there is a score page that there is more to the game than a limited perspective would allow.
Don't let your negative and caustic attitude toward me allow you to be blinded to reality. That would be just wrong.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 17, 2016, 12:59:02 AM
Don't let your negative and caustic attitude toward me allow you to be blinded to reality.
We disagree on many issues. That's the extent of the attention I pay to you. When I feel inclined to comment, I do. How you internalise that is your business.
Except you can tell from the fact that there is a score page that there is more to the game than a limited perspective would allow.
I have stated nothing to disagree with that statement in fact to the contrary. I have already implied agreement that there is more to the game than a limited perspective by stating there are any number of simultaneous activities possible in the same virtual environment.
That does not alter the observation that each activity is as equally valid as any other and the score system does not reflect that. Playing for score is effectively a sub-game of its own, if the comments of other posters is true. If a more sophisticated scoring system arrived, combining data in an intelligent way and adding a qualitative facet, that would not change the gameplay possibilities of the virtual environment.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Randy1 on October 17, 2016, 07:13:13 AM
You can kill rocky without much trouble IF you can get the gear up and have turning speed. It seems to get his goat, if he misses on the first pass. When he does miss, he makes harder turns slowing the 51 down enough you can roll around and get a snap shot or another player can get him.
We all get a good laugh when he shows up.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Tilt on October 17, 2016, 07:35:39 AM
On a separate but allied subject ..... I never agreed with idea of earning fighter perks by bombing stuff.... If there are separate categories of perkage then there should be an attack perk category to match the attack score category.
Re score .... ( and a future attack perk) I agree with the OP..... Choose bombs and you are given a ground attack profile for scoring etc automatically.
Then we see above the usual descent into an argument over score validity. Etc etc etc
I would note that whilst perkage takes into account Eny disparity..... Score does not..... Which IMO is a pity.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 07:54:45 AM
Like I said it was on Mindanao, and no a P-51 (Skat's an my own favorite) doesn't climb very fast. It's been too many years now to remember precisely, but from memory we were trying to egress and I had members of my own squad that kept going in low to an area that was covered by the ingress from an enemy field. The details of that sortie are not as important as what you said about taking kills out of the formula if you repeatedly killed someone. That's just not right.
As to your not 'furballing' statement, it doesn't matter. You are trying to favor your own style above that of other players. HiTech simply will not change things on that basis. He has said so many, many times already.
I want you to specifically say how it is I'm trying to favor my own style of play....do you even know how I play???
As for that sortie, you brought it up as an example why my idea wouldn't work....No more then 3 consecutive kills of the same person within a set period of time....that means you would have had to keep killing Skatsr over and over WITHOUT killing anyone else and WITHIN a certain amount of time....so what I was getting at is it isn't a good example for why it shouldn't be in placed. I've already thought of situations where it can be still skewed but it doesn't hurt the person's score at all....it works the opposite way of what you're worried about (gaining kills toward rank instead of losing them).
Like shida said....we wouldn't have "scorepotato" as a phrase in Aces High if there wasn't a portion of the community that goes after it...my suggestion, as of now has not received a good enough counter argument IMO, to say this couldn't make the fighter category better and more competitive for the more efficient killers in game.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: hitech on October 17, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
A person with 5 sortie 10+ K/D 10 K/H High accuracy will have a better score then a guy who has 200 sortie 5 K/D 9 K/H....and I bet in one of the 5 sorties they killed the same person 5+ times in a consecutive order...example in the fighter score right now...Blade. (not a hack or a discredit to him but he killed the same person over and over)
This is not true. You seem to be forgetting what effect the point category has.
HiTech
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 12:13:47 PM
This is not true. You seem to be forgetting what effect the point category has.
HiTech
I know the person with 200 sorties will have a better kill points score but that's one of the categories....only need 5 sorties to rank high in 3 of them. Can the person who picks only the most advantageous fights to up in fighter mode do that for 200 sorties in one month and still still maintain an exceedingly high K/D, K/T, and accuracy like that??? I havent seen any in my tenure here...yes there's some that can keep K/T or K/D up in that but in order to keep it that high they need to sacrifice another...example Starfox's K/T and Kill points are high but his K/D isn't 12 like others on the top 10...because in order for him to keep up those kills in that time he has to fly more aggresively(hes got a lot of time in game so his Kill points are also higher then most)
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: hitech on October 17, 2016, 01:25:02 PM
I know the person with 200 sorties will have a better kill points score but that's one of the categories....only need 5 sorties to rank high in 3 of them. Can the person who picks only the most advantageous fights to up in fighter mode do that for 200 sorties in one month and still still maintain an exceedingly high K/D, K/T, and accuracy like that??? I havent seen any in my tenure here...yes there's some that can keep K/T or K/D up in that but in order to keep it that high they need to sacrifice another...example Starfox's K/T and Kill points are high but his K/D isn't 12 like others on the top 10...because in order for him to keep up those kills in that time he has to fly more aggresively(hes got a lot of time in game so his Kill points are also higher then most)
Incorrect again. You'r ignoring how BADLY your example player would rank in the points category. There is no way you can be toward the top of ranking if you completely ignore one catagory.
HiTech
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 17, 2016, 01:44:04 PM
I want you to specifically say how it is I'm trying to favor my own style of play....do you even know how I play???
Yes, I've killed you enough. Your style is inconsequential, because your very premise in this thread is that the scoring method is wrong and you want to change things to 'correct' the fighter category. It's very obvious from your choice there that you think you can beat the top scorers, which you have yet to prove. You have said yourself that it is not about 'fighting,' so what is it then?
A while back I was interested in writing about Aces High and I examined how to score best in every category. Vulching does present the chance to get a better k/d, and if you come straight off the carrier in a situation in which you know first hand that the AAA is down and there is low risk that you have little chance of adding a death to the category. I can tell you that landing the kills doesn't really do much for your score. In fact, flying home takes additional time, so probably not the best thing to do unless you need that for k/d. The best target to shoot down are the larger more expensive bombers, because of the points category. You get points by causing damage to the bombers, at least that was my conclusion.
You have concluded that five hours in the category is enough, and HiTech called you out on it and he's right (of course). What has you fooled for the moment is that the pilot you have focused upon has had little chance to find the type of fighting he likes to do in fighters. He could very easily be beat by someone flying the 200 hours and shooting down crowds of bombers. I know this to be true, because I have done it.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 17, 2016, 01:50:34 PM
That does not alter the observation that each activity is as equally valid as any other and the score system does not reflect that. Playing for score is effectively a sub-game of its own, if the comments of other posters is true. If a more sophisticated scoring system arrived, combining data in an intelligent way and adding a qualitative facet, that would not change the gameplay possibilities of the virtual environment.
I would say that the system we have now is already incorporating all of your dream facets and is in harmony because of the ENY system. If a pilot fights with a higher ENY his 'quality' will stand out. If you must have the best aircraft and only furball to achieve score, then you have failed to see the point.
You fellas really need to learn look into the deep ocean instead of the shallow end of the pool. You really do not know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 01:58:31 PM
Incorrect again. You'r ignoring how BADLY your example player would rank in the points category. There is no way you can be toward the top of ranking if you completely ignore one catagory.
HiTech
My example IS rank 1 in kill points right now, we talking about the same thing?
Fighter Scores Score Rank Kills per Death + 1 3.55 37 Kills per Sortie 2.21 17 Kills per Hour of Flight 11.88 10 Kills Hit Percentage 11.26 34 Kill Points 55801.01 1
Fighter Scores Score Rank Kills per Death + 1 24.00 2 Kills per Sortie 2.40 15 Kills per Hour of Flight 6.19 84 Kills Hit Percentage 12.06 30 Kill Points 19972.67 11
Kills per hour of flight vs Kills per death....these are PERFECT examples of what I was talking about...one player is obviously more conservative (notice kills per hour of flight) in their way to approach fighter mode and they take a hit in 2 categories in particular. The other is more aggressive so he takes a hit on K/D, another thing of note is that player doesn't often hunt bombers so his accuracy would be a lot higher but that player also has VERY good aim compared to the general population(maybe why you were calling him a bad example?).
Fighter Scores Score Rank Kills per Death + 1 28.00 1 Kills per Sortie 28.00 1 Kills per Hour of Flight 12.38 8 Kills Hit Percentage 26.45 2 Kill Points 11693.86 43
current rank 1....notice the 43 for kill points.(1 sortie...)
Now I know a lot would say this is a rare incident but there's plenty of examples I could take from a handful of pilots in the last 4 years that got top 50 doing a very similar style(Few sorties lots of kills in single sortie...lets call it a 'certain' sortie because they are very certain they will land a lot of kills)....and I'm willing to bet a lot of them were landing big sorties killing the same person either upping on a field or just off a field....which sparked my suggestion.
BTW I'm not saying ignore a particular category but letting off in kill points is definitely the one to do it in....maybe that ties to veteran(good pilots) not having too much time to play so theres less competition in that category....notice the difference between one and 11 and 43...
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 02:04:00 PM
See rule #5
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 02:18:02 PM
For Chalenge
In many of the best pilot threads....this guy is considered the best KI84 stick in game and I'm in a CHog which I rarely fly...
Turn fighting a TA152 with a Hog....not many get this opportunity because they afraid of death....I'm not, because current score doesn't matter much to me in gmae because of the manipulation some have used to get top 50
Hey look fighting 2 cons from a position of disadvantage...probably doesn't happen much for you at 30K saving fuel...
Oh and look in the KOTH section....somehow I can win more rounds then most "great" players....it must be because I don't know how to fly....yea your right I'm bad. Chalenge
oh icing on the cake...I'm upped this Brew from the base that was being vulched....
If you actually want to discuss this score thing I'm going to discuss....but if you want to try to attack me Chalenge, I'd ask you to do it in game.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: TheBug on October 17, 2016, 02:53:16 PM
You're #1 to me Junky. :aok
I hope that helps.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 03:04:35 PM
See rule #7
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 17, 2016, 03:11:00 PM
Speaking of spewing lies, can you quote me "blindly saying no", in other words disagreeing with no reason? In many threads?
Worded poorly on my part but quick example off the top of my head is in Fess's post about flickering planes....there's obviously some sort of problem(don't know if it's on HTC's end or on a connection end) and you said it was a snap roll...posting films of snap rolls which didn't look anything like what the plane in game was doing.
Not spending any time searching the wishlist furom for countless threads all you did was "How does it effect you?" It doesn't matter contribute or move on
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: FLS on October 17, 2016, 03:22:28 PM
When I said it was a snap roll it wasn't a "blind no". It was an informed opinion.
When Hitech looked at AHfilm he said it was a snap roll.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 03:25:20 PM
When I said it was a snap roll it wasn't a "blind no". It was an informed opinion.
When Hitech looked at AHfilm he said it was a snap roll.
Yea but what the pilot was seeing at the time in game was recorded into a youtube video and it was obviously different....snap roll doesn't make a flicker out of control where you can't judge what it's doing.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 17, 2016, 03:30:34 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: hitech on October 17, 2016, 03:43:14 PM
My example IS rank 1 in kill points right now, we talking about the same thing?
Fighter Scores Score Rank Kills per Death + 1 3.55 37 Kills per Sortie 2.21 17 Kills per Hour of Flight 11.88 10 Kills Hit Percentage 11.26 34 Kill Points 55801.01 1
Fighter Scores Score Rank Kills per Death + 1 24.00 2 Kills per Sortie 2.40 15 Kills per Hour of Flight 6.19 84 Kills Hit Percentage 12.06 30 Kill Points 19972.67 11
Kills per hour of flight vs Kills per death....these are PERFECT examples of what I was talking about...one player is obviously more conservative (notice kills per hour of flight) in their way to approach fighter mode and they take a hit in 2 categories in particular. The other is more aggressive so he takes a hit on K/D, another thing of note is that player doesn't often hunt bombers so his accuracy would be a lot higher but that player also has VERY good aim compared to the general population(maybe why you were calling him a bad example?).
Fighter Scores Score Rank Kills per Death + 1 28.00 1 Kills per Sortie 28.00 1 Kills per Hour of Flight 12.38 8 Kills Hit Percentage 26.45 2 Kill Points 11693.86 43
current rank 1....notice the 43 for kill points.(1 sortie...)
Now I know a lot would say this is a rare incident but there's plenty of examples I could take from a handful of pilots in the last 4 years that got top 50 doing a very similar style(Few sorties lots of kills in single sortie...lets call it a 'certain' sortie because they are very certain they will land a lot of kills)....and I'm willing to bet a lot of them were landing big sorties killing the same person either upping on a field or just off a field....which sparked my suggestion.
BTW I'm not saying ignore a particular category but letting off in kill points is definitely the one to do it in....maybe that ties to veteran(good pilots) not having too much time to play so theres less competition in that category....notice the difference between one and 11 and 43...
What do you think the kill point rank will be in another 2 weeks?
HiTech
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 04:18:25 PM
What do you think the kill point rank will be in another 2 weeks?
HiTech
Depends on the amount of time players have to actually play....if all of them keep on the same exact path...number 1 will stay the same in points but drop in kill points rank Next guy(aggressive pilot) his will still climb because he is efficient killer and has A LOT of time to play...third one(conservative player) will keep climbing...hunting buffs I'm not sure how much of a difference it is but I've been told they get more kill points for buffs. I understand what you're getting at...his kill points will never go up meaning his rank in that category will go down. But his other numbers are still high and he will for sure stay in top 5 because of 1 "lucky" sortie. I understand the "it's just the way it is" but how could making a restriction on consecutive kills of the same player within a set time....disrupt game play at all for players trying to go for top ranks in fighter mode....unless their way of getting a lot of kills in fighter is by vulching/killing the same person over and over? I personally can't think of an example in game, Chalenge said one but that is where the time restriction would come into play...plus the kills would have to be consecutive...same person without any kills in between.
(By the way, in no means do I think this should be near to top of list of things to implement in game...I'm sure that list is longer then any of us can imagine...personally I'd like to see the KI84 updated ;) )
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 17, 2016, 04:35:00 PM
What do you think the kill point rank will be in another 2 weeks?
HiTech
I guess something between 100 and 130.
And actually he has a very good chance of retaining his #1 fighter rank. With his current score of just one sortie, he would have ended up #2 in fighters in last tour. And the #1 player (who's usually very heavy in kill points) of last tour won't be doing that this tour anymore...
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: hitech on October 17, 2016, 04:38:55 PM
Depends on the amount of time players have to actually play....if all of them keep on the same exact path...number 1 will stay the same in points but drop in kill points rank Next guy(aggressive pilot) his will still climb because he is efficient killer and has A LOT of time to play...third one(conservative player) will keep climbing...hunting buffs I'm not sure how much of a difference it is but I've been told they get more kill points for buffs. I understand what you're getting at...his kill points will never go up meaning his rank in that category will go down. But his other numbers are still high and he will for sure stay in top 5 because of 1 "lucky" sortie. I understand the "it's just the way it is" but how could making a restriction on consecutive kills of the same player within a set time....disrupt game play at all for players trying to go for top ranks in fighter mode....unless their way of getting a lot of kills in fighter is by vulching/killing the same person over and over? I personally can't think of an example in game, Chalenge said one but that is where the time restriction would come into play...plus the kills would have to be consecutive...same person without any kills in between.
(By the way, in no means do I think this should be near to top of list of things to implement in game...I'm sure that list is longer then any of us can imagine...personally I'd like to see the KI84 updated ;) )
Why should I punish a guys score who got lucky? The end result is the same planes have been killed.
HiTech
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 09:01:45 PM
Why should I punish a guys score who got lucky? The end result is the same planes have been killed.
HiTech
My only reason would be for a more competitive score system (better pilots in the higher ranks, taking a little luck out of the equation) for players looking for that in a game.
:salute Hitech thanks for the discussion.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 18, 2016, 12:37:43 AM
I note with interest you don't say: 'I've flown against you enough' or 'seen you flying enough' or 'I've encountered you in the MA'. I'd take what you actually said as evidence of something I've said earlier: 'people who play the score sub-game often use it to imply more than it means'. You forget I've watched several videos of your flying including the one you pulled down when there were comments made about it. A surface inspection:-
Your flying is timid and dictated by relative energy states. I've only seen you attack from advantage and stay at best neutral when co-e or numerically disadvantaged (more often you're erm, what's your term, egressing). Your ACM is shallow. You demonstrate no superior handling of your aircraft. Your knowledge of energy is one dimensional. You tend to extract evidence of your own performance from what are in fact axiomatic scenarios. Your flying is very ordinary. So presumably what's left to you is to look at your results. Score. You aren't a 'top stick', you're nowhere close after how many years of playing? So much for your being at the deep end of the pool.*
Then let's look at Junky, whom I've flown against many times as well as watched videos from. He'll fight from whatever starting position, advantage or disadvantage, energetically inferior or outnumbered. His ACM indicates depth of knowledge and application. His aircraft handling is top notch, including some departure manoeuvres that actually exceed convention (unlike your self-described 'Cobra Roll', which actually took longer to move your boresight vector than a conventional turn. I timed it). His knowledge of energy is two dimensional, and his overall flying is fair to say extraordinary, compared to the unwashed masses. By any metric that means anything he's a 'top stick'.
Yet you've 'killed him enough'. This is the core of this discussion which you seem to deliberately avoid and throw chaff into etcetera. Score and flying ability is often at best loosely coupled and more usually very misleading. I say playing for it usually implies very little in meaningful terms beyond helping people evidence something that isn't really there (some exceptions granted, Bruv119 for example).
I have no faith that anything will change in the scoring department, to the point I'm not even arguing for that. It's pointless. Just let me drop the following thought into the discussion: killing someone (by any means) is an entirely different thing than outflying someone. And every one of us knows when you're encountering a stick who is more skillful than you, usually in the first merge or watching them fight someone else. That takes considerably less time to observe than looking up their score and which might not even encapsulate that.
That's a qualitative element and the scoring system is quantitative by definition. In aces high (as opposed to certain sports for example), one is open to systematic manipulation and the other isn't.
Until you disassemble that observation or alter the scoring system to do it for you, any discussion is going to end in disagreement and people stating their subjective opinions of their experiences of it. In fact that's necessary.
* Not one atom of acerbic sarcasm present in that statement.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lazerr on October 18, 2016, 12:46:53 AM
Is that so? Alright, let's take you and Junky as a working example. Regarding this comment:
I note with interest you don't say: 'I've flown against you enough' or 'seen you flying enough' or 'I've encountered you in the MA'. I'd take what you actually said as evidence of something I've said earlier: 'people who play the score sub-game often use it to imply more than it means'. You forget I've watched several videos of your flying including the one you pulled down when there were comments made about it. A surface inspection:-
Your flying is timid and dictated by relative energy states. I've only seen you attack from advantage and stay at best neutral when co-e or numerically disadvantaged (more often you're erm, what's your term, egressing). Your ACM is shallow. You demonstrate no superior handling of your aircraft. Your knowledge of energy is one dimensional. You tend to extract evidence of your own performance from what are in fact axiomatic scenarios. Your flying is very ordinary. So presumably what's left to you is to look at your results. Score. You aren't a 'top stick', you're nowhere close after how many years of playing? So much for your being at the deep end of the pool.*
Then let's look at Junky, whom I've flown against many times as well as watched videos from. He'll fight from whatever starting position, advantage or disadvantage, energetically inferior or outnumbered. His ACM indicates depth of knowledge and application. His aircraft handling is top notch, including some departure manoeuvres that actually exceed convention (unlike your self-described 'Cobra Roll', which actually took longer to move your boresight vector than a conventional turn. I timed it). His knowledge of energy is two dimensional, and his overall flying is fair to say extraordinary, compared to the unwashed masses. By any metric that means anything he's a 'top stick'.
Yet you've 'killed him enough'. This is the core of this discussion which you seem to deliberately avoid and throw chaff into etcetera. Score and flying ability is often at best loosely coupled and more usually very misleading. I say playing for it usually implies very little in meaningful terms beyond helping people evidence something that isn't really there (some exceptions granted, Bruv119 for example).
I have no faith that anything will change in the scoring department, to the point I'm not even arguing for that. It's pointless. Just let me drop the following thought into the discussion: killing someone (by any means) is an entirely different thing than outflying someone. And every one of us knows when you're encountering a stick who is more skillful than you, usually in the first merge or watching them fight someone else. That takes considerably less time to observe than looking up their score and which might not even encapsulate that.
That's a qualitative element and the scoring system is quantitative by definition. In aces high (as opposed to certain sports for example), one is open to systematic manipulation and the other isn't.
Until you disassemble that observation or alter the scoring system to do it for you, any discussion is going to end in disagreement and people stating their subjective opinions of their experiences of it. In fact that's necessary.
* Not one atom of acerbic sarcasm present in that statement.
winner winner chicken dinner! :aok :cheers:
side note, i remember running into people like shida and junky and having fun....
I dont remember running into this challenge guy... i must be 15k below him. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 18, 2016, 12:55:43 AM
You forget I've watched several videos of your flying including the one you pulled down when there were comments made about it.
The only videos I took down were because AH2 was being rebuilt into AH3. The only negative comments came from one person jealous of the audio, and nothing said of the flying. You seem to forget that there was a time when I flew very, very aggressively. My k/d and k/t was always ten times and even forty times yours on your best tour. Your analysis is based upon limited experience and knowledge about my flying and is weak on that basis. I submit you have no knowledge to draw upon and you take yourself too seriously.
Step off this topic.
@Lazerr, not worth even dignifying that junk.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 18, 2016, 01:40:24 AM
The only negative comments came from one person jealous of the audio, and nothing said of the flying.
I commented on your Cobra Roll which was an example of ridiculously ineffective manoeuvre the mechanism of which you apparently didn't even understand and the day after your video was gone. Audio issue was it? Oh right.
Your analysis is based upon limited experience and knowledge about my flying and is weak on that basis. I submit you have no knowledge to draw upon
My analysis is based on six years of independent study and learning ACM from some of the best sticks in the last decade including duelling most of them for extended periods. I can and have fingered shades with little evidence and reasonable accuracy just by looking at their patterns of preferred ACM. I submit your motivation for trying to devalue my comments is because it threatens your self-delusion. I'd be happy to have others analyse your ACM and carefully consider their comments too, if you think that would be fairer.
My k/d and k/t was always ten times and even forty times yours on your best tour.
You're forty times the man I am then!?!?!? Wow.
K/d and k/t says precisely nothing. I've spent the last two years flying in vain off peak in dwindling numbers looking for a fight. Mostly chasing vanishing darbars and bailing opponents. Before then I almost exclusively flew at the furbal lake which I think isn't even scored. I usually fly alone and low and if I find any opponents at all I wade straight in. If I find a capped base I up over and over again because it's better than flying around doing nothing. Again I note you resort to score without context to support your argument. You are in fact just endorsing and evidencing everything I've said about score. Why don't you think about it.
You seem to forget that there was a time when I flew very, very aggressively.
Okay then, evidence it. Let's see film. Pop your aggressive flying on YouTube for us. Let's see your series of skilful reversals of fortunes. Fighting it out outnumbered. Fighting from a disadvantaged starting position. Let's see you fighting against three BnZers simultaneously, or outmanoeuvring a superior turning aircraft. Let's see you flying without wingmen, or low down, or just off the coast from an enemy base fighting increasing numbers of uppers until you're fired upon from three directions simultaneously. Let's see you not extending. Let's see you holding fire because the fight is good and you're all about quality and not quantity. Let's see your evidence for what you claim otherwise you're just pompously talking out of your hat.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Chalenge on October 18, 2016, 03:12:25 AM
I'm ignoring you nrshida. You deserve it.
I'm about to spend $25,000 approximately on equipment and other expenses related to creating an FMOD sound pack for AH3. If I were to take into consideration your attitude toward me and my 'timid' flying, I might reconsider. This is probably just the beginning to my expenses, but it's my passion. I spent more previously, and will certainly spend more in the future. I don't need you bringing me down.
What is your contribution to AH?
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: ccvi on October 18, 2016, 03:24:34 AM
we need a russian judge to score the ACM used per kill and it's technical attributes.
Almost. We need a general to judge the contribution to the war (capturing fields), and decide about rank based on that - instead of score. This would unite the play-styles of the score-worshipper and turf-capture crowds.
Unfortunately, neither the russian judge nor the general can be automated easily. Maybe with advances in AI?
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: nrshida on October 18, 2016, 04:15:45 AM
I'm about to spend $25,000 approximately on equipment and other expenses related to creating an FMOD sound pack for AH3. If I were to take into consideration your attitude toward me and my 'timid' flying, I might reconsider. This is probably just the beginning to my expenses, but it's my passion. I spent more previously, and will certainly spend more in the future. I don't need you bringing me down.
Oh stop crying you big baby. A complete non-sequitur. No one asked you to make sound packs, that's your choice. There's some pretty awesome sound packs that didn't cost a penny. Perhaps your $25,000 could be better invested. I'm thinking therapy but you could probably do yourself a lot of good with a couple of weeks in Vegas :rofl
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 18, 2016, 06:43:02 AM
For the record. I agree with Dobs original post, I think the fighter or attack should be shown when you start your sortie in the text buffer as a system message. That way people know which method they choose. I often forget to change it and have no idea until after my sortie that I scored it wrongly. I think it would help.
Secondly when it comes to rank.
The majority of the people who bash rank could never even get in the top 10 if they tried. They call the high scorers every name imaginable and disregard their flying skills in some fashion. There aren't very many people who would be Top 5 or even top 10 every month even if they flew easy perk planes. People like Semp claiming they use to fly for rank "easily" but yet you fly a P51D every sortie. That should be an automatic top 10 rank even dying half the time. People think flying timidly or running, or getting a high K/D is the best way to get a high rank. They are wrong. I'd love to challenge people to a fighter rank contest, but they are usually too weak to accept. I think it's actually harder than people give credit for. I think it does take skill to be a top 5 ranked. Given the integrity of the players and how they achieved it. I dare you to call me a weak score tard after Ive gone 97-9 in a 109g2 this tour. A slow midwar plane. No one sees that, no one sees the challenge I've given to myself. No one sees the actual skill it takes to achieve that. They just think I'm some score dweeb who gets top 5 every month. I think if people used the rank more, it would help them become a better pilot. You can gauge your performance and work on part that you need help with. You can work on getting kills faster, you can work on getting more kills a sortie, and see those #s for comparison. There really is a skill to get a good fighter rank in harder planes. There is a reason why I always score high, it's because I know how to play in the MA and I know how to get kills in a short period of time. I dont fly like your percieved run timid gang dweebs, and that's half the reason I have a better rank than all of them. I'm all for bashing the runners and gangers, but they are not an indication of good pilot scoreres. It's almost insulting to me when I hear people talking about rank because they simply don't understand it, or at least don't understand why I always have a top 5 rank, it happens on accident, and it's simply because of the way I fly, not because I have to fly some dweeb ride or fly a special way. Maybe you can point out the true pilots who represent rank rather than bash everyone who scores high, and actually learn how they do it, so you can become better in the MA.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: JunkyII on October 18, 2016, 07:58:25 AM
At Violator
I don't think anyone is taking away from the guys like yourself and Snailman who put the actual time in to attain those ranks...why I was talking top 50 instead of top 5...but this month had a great example for my suggestion in the top spot. I consider top 5 to be NORMALLY very hard to get into...this month a little luck got in there. But you can't tell me that within the top 50 every tour there isn't a few people who get in there because they only up in fighter mode for vulches and such....which is the reason for my suggestion, it really doesn't take anything away from anyone who got their score skillfully.
Almost. We need a general to judge the contribution to the war (capturing fields), and decide about rank based on that - instead of score. This would unite the play-styles of the score-worshipper and turf-capture crowds.
Unfortunately, neither the russian judge nor the general can be automated easily. Maybe with advances in AI?
Overall score measures turf capture ability very well IMO as of now....why the top 50 overall are mostly base capture players....some milk runners and achievement seekers but for the most part base capture guys.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
I do agree to some extent that 5 or such kills on the same player in a span of 3-5 minutes should be restricted to some extent. Even though Blade did not break the rules, the integrity of the score matters, and I'd hate for people to take advantage of this with their friend, as there is no way to identify proof of gaming the rank. Yes, I would have been #1 this month if not for that, which is why I was pissed when I first saw it. I will do my best to pass his rank as it is a challenge for me. :police:
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Bruv119 on October 18, 2016, 10:40:41 AM
omg just go get a 262 and kill 10 sets of buffs already.
Normally there are way more players and that makes the points category average much higher making it very difficult for low sortie fighter types to remain top 2. I'm sure he wouldn't still be #1 if you and everyone else ups their game a little and puts more kill points on the board.
EDIT: just looked and it is a big ask however if he logs in again and plays in fighter he will dilute that ridiculous score.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 18, 2016, 10:59:14 AM
After looking at it, I might be #1 tomorrow depending on how much further Blades point rank goes up :D
I won't get to play till the weekend. But I'm in a good spot :banana:
I remember back in 2006-2007 I couldn't ever get #1 because of the points. KillnU beat me one time (tour 82, I think.) because I just couldn't get enough points. That was one of my best month ever I'm AH. Nowadays it's all about K/H and Hit# to really have a chance at winning. I still think it's challenging. Plus I just enjoy beating starfox every tour playing 1/16th the time he does hehehehe.
Title: Re: Attack label when rolling light
Post by: Lusche on October 18, 2016, 01:16:27 PM
Nowadays it's all about K/H and Hit# to really have a chance at winning.
In absolute numbers, the perceived importance of K/H has actually declined, as the average K/H went down a lot over the past years. A K/H in the top group right now would have given you something like a 'honorable mention' back in the day ;) I mentioned it before: My bomber hunting style never got me to the top in those days, because the many furballers had a way better k/h than me. But now that those days are gone, the very same playing style got me to #1 a lot of times.
But of course, relatively spoken all categories are worth the same, because they all contribute their sub rank number to your total rank.