Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on January 30, 2017, 12:01:32 AM
-
For info.
:salute
-
Small question: what's the difference between "Landing Bonus" and "Pilot Survival Bonus"?
For example, If I bork the landing and die, but manage to place all the wreckage on the tarmac, do I still get the "Landing Bonus"? ;)
-
I think the difference comes into play if your pilot is killed while rearming by bailed enemy with his .45. That way, you only get the "landing bonus" because the plane is not damaged - bullet hole in the canopy and blood stained IP not withstanding. :devil
-
A pilot who bails out and/or captured is not dead. If you die (crash or killed) you will not get a pilot survival bonus. It's a small incentive to care about your virtual pilots life. Better a POW than a wooden cross.
The landing bonus is simply bringing your bird home.
Land ok at home base? 3 pts for your side. 2 for the plane and 1 for the crew.
-
Thanks! :salute
-
Chute targeting systems <ON>
:devil
-
Intelligence has reported bailed out air crew with horrific injuries. This cannot stand. There shall be no mercy. :devil
-
bonus pts if you can shoot the little man before he can open his chute :aok
-
Please take a look at the fuel and the alt cap. The entire squad ran out of fuel about 100+ miles from only friendly field. Never been a fan of artificial alt caps for bombers. Thank you for your consideration.
:salute
Way
-
Please take a look at the fuel and the alt cap. The entire squad ran out of fuel about 100+ miles from only friendly field. Never been a fan of artificial alt caps for bombers. Thank you for your consideration.
:salute
Way
Come on Way. You could have taken 5 hours worth of gas if you wanted to. Assuming you were in the B-17's, of course.
-
Come on Way. You could have taken 5 hours worth of gas if you wanted to.
We were limited to full internal and no droppers. Not enuff fuel.
-
Ok, so you were in jugs. That sucks about the lack of DT's - makes no sense given the distance needed, I agree. Not sure what that has to do with the 17's having an alt cap though.
-
Ok, so you were in jugs. That sucks about the lack of DT's - makes no sense given the distance needed, I agree. Not sure what that has to do with the 17's having an alt cap though.
Alt caps are bombers on a platter. :aok
-
Lilma and I glided 2-3 sections with engines off and made it. It's about %100 fuel management
Lol, you non jug people will never master the jug until you put a lot of time in them to appreciate them.
-
Ok, so you were in jugs. That sucks about the lack of DT's - makes no sense given the distance needed, I agree. Not sure what that has to do with the 17's having an alt cap though.
The idea of no DT is because that is about accurate on real mission for them.
-
Lilma and I glided 2-3 sections with engines off and made it. It's about %100 fuel management
Lol, you non jug people will never master the jug until you put a lot of time in them to appreciate them.
Fight the Luftwaffe or glide home? Hmmm I'll take the extra fuel thank you. Experience has little to do with it, it's more about fostering a longer fight window.
-
The idea of no DT is because that is about accurate on real mission for them.
You do realize this is not World War 2 right?
-
Waystin, I feel for ya buddy and your Allied brethren. The Luftwaffe would much rather have had a fight with you but for lack of fuel. It gets better.
JG11 was bounced nicely by 4 or more P51 30 seconds before we saw the buffs so we only got one good HO pass. I was hoping for a nice alt advantage slashing pass or three but that was not to be had. Climbing for position was just not going to happen. The P47's came in quick and kept control of anything above the buffs after that. I was hoping to escape south, then turn west and climb to get to those big fat bufferoonies on their egress. Nope, Ran into a swarm of P38's. So many.......so few of me.
Very exciting.
-
Fight the Luftwaffe or glide home? Hmmm I'll take the extra fuel thank you. Experience has little to do with it, it's more about fostering a longer fight window.
We manage our fuel to give us 15 min tops, to fight Luftwaffe before returning home or at least making it. 15 is enough time to stay with the bombers, ingress and egress.
-
We manage our fuel to give us 15 min tops, to fight Luftwaffe before returning home or at least making it. 15 is enough time to stay with the bombers, ingress and egress.
Your missing the point and your fuel management prowess is noted. Anybody could stretch that fuel and make it back if they are willing to abandon the bombers. The Pigs did not. We flew all the way to Bremen at max cruise with our buffs until encountering the enemy south of Bremen. We fought the enemy until all of our bombers were down and found our selves with 17-20 minutes of fuel with 6 sectors to the only friendly field. Do that math for me oh wise one.
-
Way makes my point. We had the fuel to get there and back on max cruise. If the mission didn't include protecting our bombers, we would have been fine. Add in that I landed with only minutes to spare due to lumbering along, barely flying, time was also an issue.
-
Your missing the point and your fuel management prowess is noted. Anybody could stretch that fuel and make it back if they are willing to abandon the bombers. The Pigs did not. We flew all the way to Bremen at max cruise with our buffs until encountering the enemy south of Bremen. We fought the enemy until all of our bombers were down and found our selves with 17-20 minutes of fuel with 6 sectors to the only friendly field. Do that math for me oh wise one.
How were you 17-20 mins of fuel? My group was there too and had hell lot more fuel, stayed with the bombers and fought off the threat and made it back.
-
How were you 17-20 mins of fuel? My group was there too and had hell lot more fuel, stayed with the bombers and fought off the threat and made it back.
You were on the northern flight path. Northern path was more direct & less distance and it explains why the difference in fuel.
-
Those of us in VF-17 that flew p47s had to use Super Cruise to get back to A1 from Hanover. I was less skilled in this strategy and ditched 2.5 sectors from my base. It was very touch-and-go for the others though.
-
You were on the northern flight path. Northern path was more direct & less distance and it explains why the difference in fuel.
Ah, that explains it. If you told me that I won't question it.
-
The bombers don't fly at the historic speeds. They fly far faster because they aren't afraid of blowing an engine, running out of gas or maintaining proper formations.
This means the fighters have to fly at higher power settings to stay close to the bombers.
So constraining the fighters while not constraining the bombers results in empty tanks for P-47 's.
Now if the bombers were limited to just enough fuel to complete the mission at real world cruise power levels then the fighter fuel restrictions would make more sense.
-
The southern target was about 1.5 standard map squares further than the northern target (about 37 miles). This extra distance adds about 15 minutes flight time at normal speeds. It would be difficult for the fuel guzzlers sent south.
If targets are set back no further than 7.5 sectors from the start point then the essential requirements including fuel management can be maintained.
-
It's up to the CiCs who plan the mission and the squadron leaders who lead to be aware of fuel issues. This isn't the Melee Arena where we just roll off at 100 throttle and keep it there the whole time.
-
It's up to the CiCs who plan the mission and the squadron leaders who lead to be aware of fuel issues. This isn't the Melee Arena where we just roll off at 100 throttle and keep it there the whole time.
I appreciate your response. So either the CIC planned poorly or I led the squadron into certain doom with my ignorance of fuel management from flying the melee arena. Or maybe both? I hope someone else get those setup crippled planes next frame Sir.
:salute
Way
-
It wasn't meant as an insult i'm simply saying there are some missions where the planners and the squad leads have to make allowances for fuel. Sometimes you have to call bingo and turn back.
The P-47s have the shortest legs of the trio of USAAF fighters. You have to plan for that.
-
It wasn't meant as an insult i'm simply saying there are some missions where the planners and the squad leads have to make allowances for fuel. Sometimes you have to call bingo and turn back.
The P-47s have the shortest legs of the trio of USAAF fighters. You have to plan for that.
Understood. I will pay closer attention to this in the future.
:salute
Way
-
Fuel management is important and pretty much reflected the range we are emulating... It's not a problem if you're not full throttle/full RPM the whole trip... Tough lesson to learn, but hey that's the way she goes...
Also learned not to chase 109's to the deck where my Jug is all but a dump-truck for speed/acceleration. :salute ESPECIALLY considering there's only ONE friendly base to return too...
I think this is a worse problem then no fuel as it's pretty easy to catch allies RTB on little to no fuel because after target, only 1 direction is usable to RTB.
Fun frame tho.
-
Fuel management is important and pretty much reflected the range we are emulating... It's not a problem if you're not full throttle/full RPM the whole trip... Tough lesson to learn, but hey that's the way she goes...
Also learned not to chase 109's to the deck where my Jug is all but a dump-truck for speed/acceleration. :salute ESPECIALLY considering there's only ONE friendly base to return too...
I think this is a worse problem then no fuel as it's pretty easy to catch allies RTB on little to no fuel because after target, only 1 direction is usable to RTB.
Fun frame tho.
KB, we were at max cruise until two sectors from Bremen. From that point the bombers were under constant attack all the way to target. As you can see none of them made it, but we took a heavy toll on the enemy fighters as well. When the last bomber went down we were over Bremen with 17 minutes fuel left. Only choices were to abandon the bombers right about where the Axis planes attacked or fight the Axis at fuel settings above max cruise setting. I will look for these situations in the future orders and question and/or request changes.
See you up there,
Way
-
So did our fearless bureaucrats just let us down in our fuel load and route? As in, literally no way to achieve the route AND make it home? I only ask as I didn't get the chance to try and make it home, but thought that I could have. :uhoh
-
So did our fearless bureaucrats just let us down in our fuel load and route? As in, literally no way to achieve the route AND make it home? I only ask as I didn't get the chance to try and make it home, but thought that I could have. :uhoh
It's a combo of factors not anyone persons fault. Add in the fact that no plan survives contact with the enemy and the potential for the flight to go sideways increases. After the back and forth with fellow FSOers and Warloc (CM) my thinking is the jugs should be relegated to a role that does not require them to close escort the bombers. This job is better suited to the Ponies and 38's fuel loadouts.
-
It's a combo of factors not anyone persons fault. Add in the fact that no plan survives contact with the enemy and the potential for the flight to go sideways increases. After the back and forth with fellow FSOers and Warloc (CM) my thinking is the jugs should be relegated to a role that does not require them to close escort the bombers. This job is better suited to the Ponies and 38's fuel loadouts.
Seems legit. That's all a grunt pilot like me can ask for... :salute
-
Wait??? We went to Bremen and flew over the bombers the whole way. Throttled up to full military about 1 sector out and followed a couple formations all the way home. I killed the engine 2.5 sectors out @28k just to see how far I could glide. Made it 2 miles from the runway before I turned the engine back on. Had 11 minutes at military power over the airfield. I was leading the group so I had more fuel than the rest. At a cruise setting I would've had 22 minutes of fuel two sectors away at 28k. Most of my guys should've had at least 1/2 of that which was enough to make it home.
The Luftwaffe, as I understand it, had to RTB back to their departure airport so hovering over the landing airport would be a suicide run.
-
Wait??? We went to Bremen and flew over the bombers the whole way. Throttled up to full military about 1 sector out and followed a couple formations all the way home. I killed the engine 2.5 sectors out @28k just to see how far I could glide. Made it 2 miles from the runway before I turned the engine back on. Had 11 minutes at military power over the airfield. I was leading the group so I had more fuel than the rest. At a cruise setting I would've had 22 minutes of fuel two sectors away at 28k. Most of my guys should've had at least 1/2 of that which was enough to make it home.
The Luftwaffe, as I understand it, had to RTB back to their departure airport so hovering over the landing airport would be a suicide run.
Northern track was a full 15 minutes less flight time by the orders and almost a full sector shorter in distance. Add to that the full throttle business of combat and the Pigs refusing to leave their bombers when under attack. Well they we were. Unless you guys drained some fuel off of us before we lifted as a joke? :D
-
my thinking is the jugs should be relegated to a role that does not require them to close escort the bombers. This job is better suited to the Ponies and 38's fuel loadouts.
+1
-
Northern track was a full 15 minutes less flight time by the orders and almost a full sector shorter in distance. Add to that the full throttle business of combat and the Pigs refusing to leave their bombers when under attack. Well they we were. Unless you guys drained some fuel off of us before we lifted as a joke? :D
Well that definitely makes a difference. I disavow draining any bacon grease from your tanks. :devil
-
Well that definitely makes a difference. I disavow draining any bacon grease from your tanks. :devil
:aok :rofl
-
Way I don't think your target was Bremen if you had the southern job. Might be causing some confusion.
-
Way I don't think your target was Bremen if you had the southern job. Might be causing some confusion.
Without discussing planning too much, take a look at the frame 1 orders and route map again. We were assigned Bremen on the southern route.
-
Too much flying and fuel management in this setup and not enough fighting. Absolute zero chance of any late frame action. If we are to have a heavily scripted event in order to avoid people missing out on any action, why do we have a script that severely reduces the action?
-
Too much flying and fuel management in this setup and not enough fighting. Absolute zero chance of any late frame action. If we are to have a heavily scripted event in order to avoid people missing out on any action, why do we have a script that severely reduces the action?
Frame 1 was awesome. Yes it was a lot of flying and fuel management but that sort of thing should matter in FSO and the action was intense if brief.
-
Alt caps are bombers on a platter. :aok
IMHO, so long as the in-game bomber accuracy is the same at four thousand feet and FORTY thousand feet, bomber alt caps are a valid balancing adjustment.
:salute
-
IMHO, so long as the in-game bomber accuracy is the same at four thousand feet and FORTY thousand feet, bomber alt caps are a valid balancing adjustment.
:salute
Hello Bino,
You and I will differ on this issue. In my opinion the accuracy of bombers has no correlation to knowing the altitude that your attackers are going to come in at. Cap all the planes, or cap none. With that said, I think this applies more to a setup like the current event where one side only has to defend. When both sides are attacking there is some semblance of balance in the risk incurred by an artificial ceiling. See you up there my friend!
Way
-
I think the alt cap @ 23 for bombers is fair. Increasing the fight could be accomplished by opening up a few more Axis fields for landing or establishing a no fly zone for the Axis.
-
I think the 23k foot alt cap is ridiculous. Read "Bomber Pilot" or Bob Morgan's book and you will see the B-24's that flew lower than the forts got chewed up all the time at that alt. More realistic for B-17's would be 26k or so. Load up the planes the way they were and see what the caps look like. That 3k foot is huge for performance at that alt.
-
Also look at the Ruhr Event and Longbow events from a few years back as well as real life. Fighters didn't cover bombers for and entire trip but only covered certain segments of the route for a window of 10 min or so. Reference Ramrod to Emden.
-
I think the 23k foot alt cap is ridiculous. Read "Bomber Pilot" or Bob Morgan's book and you will see the B-24's that flew lower than the forts got chewed up all the time at that alt. More realistic for B-17's would be 26k or so. Load up the planes the way they were and see what the caps look like. That 3k foot is huge for performance at that alt.
I'd buy off on higher altitudes if we flew bombers at realistic speeds. As it stands now you can firewall the things and not lose your drones. Not realistic.
-
Without discussing planning too much, take a look at the frame 1 orders and route map again. We were assigned Bremen on the southern route.
Heh.. Just read them again and it isn't hard getting lost describing them here.
You were assigned Bremen, but on what we have been calling the "northern route". The green lines are for the sweep only. There wasn't supposed to be any bombers on them. You had the "short" leg. :) The guys going to Hanover had the long flight! You did get the shortest route handed to any P47s.
Having said that, the plan called for us to take the long way round and then go to Bremen first and then on to Hanover. We couldn't achieve that because a couple of other groups mixed up their orders and started out as close escort for bombers that spawned in the wrong place anyway.
We could have made it to both on fuel, but time and task did us in. We ended up back on ground about 10 mins before the end. Guys were a bit surprised that I only loaded 75% fuel but it was plenty for our task. :aok
-
Heh.. Just read them again and it isn't hard getting lost describing them here.
You were assigned Bremen, but on what we have been calling the "northern route". The green lines are for the sweep only. There wasn't supposed to be any bombers on them. You had the "short" leg. :) The guys going to Hanover had the long flight! You did get the shortest route handed to any P47s.
Having said that, the plan called for us to take the long way round and then go to Bremen first and then on to Hanover. We couldn't achieve that because a couple of other groups mixed up their orders and started out as close escort for bombers that spawned in the wrong place anyway.
We could have made it to both on fuel, but time and task did us in. We ended up back on ground about 10 mins before the end. Guys were a bit surprised that I only loaded 75% fuel but it was plenty for our task. :aok
Unsure what to say on this. Regardless of the confusing orders. Still not sure I see the assignment the way you do, but it should be crystal clear. Can we agree on that? We used max cruise before the NE jog at which point the bombers cam under repeated attack. We either leave them, fight at max cruise settings, or throttle up try to kill all the red guys we can. We opted for the latter.
After re-hashing this with several folks I will say that if I see a similar assignment I will question it and/or request a change in orders. It will not happen again in this event. See you up there!
Way
-
Hello Bino,
You and I will differ on this issue. In my opinion the accuracy of bombers has no correlation to knowing the altitude that your attackers are going to come in at. Cap all the planes, or cap none. With that said, I think this applies more to a setup like the current event where one side only has to defend. When both sides are attacking there is some semblance of balance in the risk incurred by an artificial ceiling. See you up there my friend!
Way
Understood, Waystin. :salute
I look at my suggestion of more realistic bomber accuracy this way: If bombers attack from way, way up high they should only be able to achieve historically "accurate" bombing and in return enjoy enhanced protection from interception. If bombers come in low to increase their bombing accuracy they would run a greater risk of being intercepted and/or pursued. In game terms, by attacking low they gamble their own plane points against BDA points - by attacking high they preserve more plane points but achieve fewer BDA points.
At any rate, I really do hope that you and your bunch enjoy the fights in this FSO. :cheers: