General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: alpini13 on January 14, 2018, 04:31:34 PM
Title: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 14, 2018, 04:31:34 PM
yeah i know... but hear me out.... only the very small midget type submarine....with two torpedoes, only available at the port, these things are slow, and only have two shots to fire, but they could go where shore batteries cant fire as a spawn point for them, they have no machine guns and could not fire on the lvt or troops. it could be interesting possible candidates? my choice ,german seahund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seehund
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 14, 2018, 06:35:36 PM
and yes i know the japanese had midgets as well... also another choice
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: 100Coogn on January 14, 2018, 09:36:15 PM
Hope you get your wish Shrinky-Dink. :grin:
Coogan
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: OldNitro on January 15, 2018, 08:34:12 AM
Not so funny..
Ages ago, I remember reading that HT's dad was a WW2 silent service veteran.. And HT was actually interested in adding a Submarine aspect to the game..
Adding a submarine, would mean adding DD's under your full control to hunt the subs! In the manner of keeping things even, gameplay wise..
+1
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 15, 2018, 09:56:56 AM
If Dale thought it would be worth the effort or practical he woulda done it by now. Sub sims are way different than AH (read 'slow and meticulous').
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: OldNitro on January 15, 2018, 10:29:06 AM
I always found quickies to be rather unsatisfying..
They say, death by starvation takes a long long time.. I wonder how long death by stagnation takes?
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: FLS on January 15, 2018, 10:46:12 AM
I'm sure there's a reason the water has depth now.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 15, 2018, 10:47:40 AM
i remember a time when it was said there would be NO tiger 2, and NO b-29, and NO panther... well.. guess what!!!!.... we got em now. :neener:
None of which are part of a submarine simulation. ;)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: RODBUSTR on January 16, 2018, 09:11:08 AM
Kaitan?.... Manned torpedo. Perk the heck out of It. To fund It give points for Manned gun and PT ops. :)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 16, 2018, 09:28:58 AM
Manned torpedo gun would be cool. However, Subs is the next evolution, along with player controlled Fletcher Class destroyers with Mark I radar... :x
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 16, 2018, 10:18:11 AM
Ok, lets talk about submarines in Aces High. Lets talk about submarines in any combat MMO that features, first and foremost, air combat with tanks and fleets a close second. Lets talk about the difference between that and a submarine simulation.
We all know that Aces High offers an element of quick combat. In some instances it isn't so quick (bomber runs). It offers an arena environment capable of providing constant action to hundreds of players. The environment doesn't really lend itself to the nature of a submarine simulation. Adding mini-subs that spawn off ports would be very arcade like compared to a well designed submarine simulation.
Those of us familiar with submarine simulations such as Silent Hunter 4 know that the simulation does not just involve spawning where enemy ships are already within periscope range (on a sunny smooth sea, for that matter). It involves a series of patrols. Finding the enemy is just as much a challenge as engaging them. You run on the surface until you have to dive. You make use of radar on the surface and sonar submerged. You sail through squalls as much as clear seas. Even when the encounter begins it involves setting up a run, programming the torpedoes via your TDC (torpedo data computer), firing your spread then (if enemy combat ships are part of the mix) diving and hiding while your crew reloads. For any true submarine simulation enthusiast, anything short of this experience is anathema.
Now, lets say that Dale and co. want to add subs in just that manner - as a simulation that compared to everything modeled to fly or roll on wheels or tracks. The amount of modeling and programming must be staggering (more so than the environment update I'm willing to bet). It would be much more complex than, say, adding operational torps on destroyers, I presume.
Is that really what you want HTC to devote itself to for the next, I dunno, three years or more? In the end will it be something that attracts sub simmers to the game (when they already have highly detailed submarine simulations to play offline - where such a simulation thrives)?
Mini subs attached to ports? May as well just program some slow moving periscope spawns that play like:
Ok, lets talk about submarines in Aces High. Lets talk about submarines in any combat MMO that features, first and foremost, air combat with tanks and fleets a close second. Lets talk about the difference between that and a submarine simulation.
We all know that Aces High offers an element of quick combat. In some instances it isn't so quick (bomber runs). It offers an arena environment capable of providing constant action to hundreds of players. The environment doesn't really lend itself to the nature of a submarine simulation. Adding mini-subs that spawn off ports would be very arcade like compared to a well designed submarine simulation.
<snip> Mini subs attached to ports? May as well just program some slow moving periscope spawns that play like:
We need to thinking outside the box Arlo. You're thinking about integrating subs the same way you would try to integrate Silent Hunter into Chuck Yeager's Air Combat. It's oil and water. Won't work - we need to think how Dale and Doug did it with other slow moving player-controlled vehicles. Tanks.
I would think like vehicles, integrating subs with spawn points are key to its success. No one would try and do a base raid in a tank if you drove your Sherman 4 hours to the closest base to be popped by a JagD camping just outside their base within seconds of a tank battle. That's why spawn points are an important implementation feature for gameplay. Submarines should be treated exactly the same way. You should be allowed to spawn your sub in a position that gets you to action within 10-20 minutes if you need to hunt or minutes if an enemy CV group is just off port. It would also make players think-twice about parking a CV just off the coast.
To counter subs, you need to add Destroyers - who would also have spawn points that would counter sub spawn points to you can get to action in 10-20 minutes of sailing. No different than we have spawn points for tanks/vehicles that are strategically close to one another to allow tank battles to occur. Or maps with tank towns.
Not only is it doable, it would add some very cool dynamics (and huge new player numbers) to the game - and we're not talking about adding an extra 10 players a night...
If word got out that Aces High added subs and destroyers we're talking about potentially adding thousands of extra players... who would also up an aircraft or tank once in a while like I up a tank once in a while (my first love is flying). But like most Aces High pilots, we love ALL aspects of WWII gameplay.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 16, 2018, 11:49:17 AM
I believe I covered inside and outside the box rather well. My illustration gave example of what submarine simmers enjoy most versus a whittled down arcade version (anything short of the submariner experience without actually being in the sub).
Visit here for an idea of how devoted the submarine simulator community is to realism: http://www.subsim.com/index.php
Adding sub spawns and treating sub warfare like tank spawns in AH won't attract them.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 16, 2018, 02:42:53 PM
I believe I covered inside and outside the box rather well. My illustration gave example of what submarine simmers enjoy most versus a whittled down arcade version (anything short of the submariner experience without actually being in the sub).
Visit here for an idea of how devoted the submarine simulator community is to realism: http://www.subsim.com/index.php
Adding sub spawns and treating sub warfare like tank spawns in AH won't attract them.
Very aware of the website - I've had an account there for over a decade now... no different than most pilots would agree that pressing E to start your engine, forgetting about fuel, prop, and heat management in your aircraft isn't a whittled down experience for the seasoned WWII sim enthusiast...yet here we are, all still playing Aces High.
No different than a single control panel for your sub, and then a station for a deck or AA gun (assuming we get a Type VII or a Balao-class sub) which was most early WWII sub sims - yet they were played by tens of thousands of enthusiasts. And it is on THEIR wishlist, not particularly ours. :D
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Lusche on January 16, 2018, 03:01:39 PM
No different than a single control panel for your sub, and then a station for a deck or AA gun (assuming we get a Type VII or a Balao-class sub) which was most early WWII sub sims
Very aware of the website - I've had an account there for over a decade now... no different than most pilots would agree that pressing E to start your engine, forgetting about fuel, prop, and heat management in your aircraft isn't a whittled down experience for the seasoned WWII sim enthusiast...yet here we are, all still playing Aces High.
No different than a single control panel for your sub, and then a station for a deck or AA gun (assuming we get a Type VII or a Balao-class sub) which was most early WWII sub sims - yet they were played by tens of thousands of enthusiasts. And it is on THEIR wishlist, not particularly ours. :D
Sub sims have evolved. I doubt many enthusiasts would like to devolve.
2003 join date here. There's a 'Fork' from Calgary, Alberta that registered in 2004? That you? :)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 16, 2018, 04:23:52 PM
Mine's Fork... (ba dum dum).
My first experience at sub sims... (https://images-2.gog.com/ea1899113e6791c84419bc5530530fb1f4f75db84aa898bff1a63a4f0d0d2df5_product_card_screenshot_600.jpg)
Subsim Join Date: 09-17-2004 - so yeah, that's me. :)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: 100Coogn on January 16, 2018, 04:33:14 PM
My first experience at sub sims... (https://images-2.gog.com/ea1899113e6791c84419bc5530530fb1f4f75db84aa898bff1a63a4f0d0d2df5_product_card_screenshot_600.jpg)
For a sub in WWII, that's a lot of info. Pretty sure they didn't have windows to look out or God Mode. Those dials remind me of the old flight sims from back in the day. :old:
Coogan
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 16, 2018, 04:55:33 PM
My first experience at sub sims... (https://images-2.gog.com/ea1899113e6791c84419bc5530530fb1f4f75db84aa898bff1a63a4f0d0d2df5_product_card_screenshot_600.jpg)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 17, 2018, 04:21:23 PM
Actually, I'm talking about this:
(http://www.one35th.com/seehund/XXVII.jpg)
It appears to be similar to the Hecht (Type XXVIIA, which can be confusing) which were used for training the Seehund crews. But there are differences. The diagram appears to illustrate that it has a 'mine' on its nose.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 17, 2018, 04:28:57 PM
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 17, 2018, 05:20:03 PM
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 18, 2018, 08:44:28 PM
i would like to add a small idea to the idea IF subds were added as already discussed....and thats is the quick and easy idea of countermeasures that all aspects of aiming and firing are already in the game,,,,and that would be from any manned gun in the fleet have an option for depth charge and a limited number of ammo for this idea....and then implement the type of aiming/ range/depth like the 88mm manned gun on a V-base.....in other words you aim toward an area, and then use the C and V keys to determine other factors for the depth charge....mabe as a timer until detonation? so you aim and fire and then it launches hits the water and sinks at a predetermined rate, and after so many seconds detonates... thats one idea, im sure we could think of others...in this way we dont need a manned destoyer, all ships have the potential to attack subs except maybe the heavy cruiser(our stand in for battle ship) and the cv(aircraft carrier)...again just a thought on this.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 18, 2018, 08:52:32 PM
... any manned gun in the fleet have an option for depth charge and a limited number of ammo for this idea....
Up to this point I thought you were being at least halfway serious and not trolling.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: lunatic1 on January 19, 2018, 06:55:32 AM
games that use submarines-submarine games-were designed and built to use submarines- AH AH2 AH3 was not designed to use submarines.. and guys forgive me for using another game title here but not even World Of Warships have submarines-and its a warship game.
no we don't need submarines.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 19, 2018, 10:17:05 AM
well i was being serious..as a matter of fact when i was asked for the 88mm flak gun the sticking point was they didnt have a proximity fuse on thier rounds...i had a discusion with skuzzy and suggested the using keys for the range to set the distance of the round exploding...skuzzy liked the idea and it went into the game.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 19, 2018, 10:28:57 AM
well i was being serious..as a matter of fact when i was asked for the 88mm flak gun the sticking point was they didnt have a proximity fuse on thier rounds...i had a discusion with skuzzy and suggested the using keys for the range to set the distance of the round exploding...skuzzy liked the idea and it went into the game.
There's a big difference in suggesting a way to model historical accuracy and making up bizarre stuff. Don't presume previous good ideas support current bad ones.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mano on January 25, 2018, 03:52:14 PM
We started with Aces High(Planes), then we added Aces Low(GV's), .....and soon we shall see Aces Below :D
Submarine spawn points could be added near channels where all ships have to pass (a gauntlet) , also spawns near airfields, v Bases, or ports much the way pt boats spawn in. Submarine captains will have to be very patient to take advantage of their opportunities.
Submarines will be restricted on how close they can get to the shore. They could also deliver troops for base capture. Instead of lvt's.....small motor boats are launched just off shore. Once the motor boats reaches the beach the troops are let out to run. Troops would have to run allot further than those delivered by lv2t, m-3, or C-47. They would also be in danger of being spotted so the Submarine captain would have to be careful in his selection of the area for troop deployment.
CV's will need full time skipper to watch for enemy subs and pt boats, besides heavy fighters and bombers overhead. :uhoh
Would be fun if several players can attach to help run the submarine, ie. man the guns, launch torpedoes ect.
The map makers will have a good time designing maps that include submarines.
AAAAAAOOOOOOOOGAAAAAAAA DIVE DIVE DIVE !!!!!
:salute
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Sabre on January 25, 2018, 04:13:05 PM
I spoke to Dale (HiTech) a number of years ago (interviewing him for a game magazine). His thinking at the time was that subs would spawn from a moving point that represents a wolf-pack. The WP would be moved around the map in the same fashion as the fleets are, with waypoints. So, when the WP is in transit, away from any enemy vessels, the players can just ignore it. When it's someplace interesting, they spawn the u-boat and con it in real-time. "Interesting" is in the eye of the beholder. If the WP is near an enemy base, you might want to spawn a U-boat and start shelling with the deck gun. If an enemy fleet is about to respawn at it's base, having a WP nearby would put you in a position to intercept it. Maybe you park the WP to bottle up a straight that an enemy fleet has to run through to get at your bases. Adding merchant convoys (think of them like trains) give you more targets.
The point is, it Aces High was always meant to grow beyond being just an air combat game. HiTech also stated he wanted to add a FPS element for base capture and defense. This is (or was, at least) always in the cards.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 25, 2018, 05:07:14 PM
For the most part the water is -1000ft out of the box. I always thought while doing the alpha\beta testing when our GV's used to fall through the ground into the water Underworld that subs might work if that space had physics formulas that control it like the air above it does for aircraft.
Wouldn't the first step be finding out if Hitech is even interested.....
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 25, 2018, 05:49:16 PM
.... if that space had physics formulas that control it like the air above it does for aircraft.
Similar, not like (but I know what you mean, I think).
Programming submarines into AH would likely be the most demanding thing HT has done, to date, and for it to be anything close to submarine sims from even a decade ago it would require all of his resources and nothing else would likely get modeled for years. I'm not sure how that'll bring players into the game faster than adding planes, vehicles or surface ships that require way fewer resources.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 25, 2018, 09:56:20 PM
its like we havent experienced that before... the last time a new plane was added to the game was january 2014.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 25, 2018, 10:19:14 PM
its like we havent experienced that before... the last time a new plane was added to the game was january 2014.
That's because of the environmental update. You remember the environmental update that took precedence over everything?
And if HT tries to make AH a submarine game you won't see a new plane `til 2024.
SMH .... sometimes I wonder ....
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 25, 2018, 11:21:06 PM
i remember the enviro-mental update...we are some of the few that stayed around to see it. main arena numbers are down, all numbers are down, FSO is down to 58% of what it used to be.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: wil3ur on January 26, 2018, 01:29:04 AM
We should probably just kill our shades to get #1 ranking in the MA and be done with it :noid :bolt:
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 26, 2018, 12:35:50 PM
Do we need to pass the hat and get alpini a crying towel??
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 26, 2018, 01:07:49 PM
The brutal point is this - if something doesn't change to drastically increase the number of players in Aces High - like adding Aces Deep to the MA, we can only expect this game to last a little while longer before it is no longer operable at current subscription rates.
Adding another gameplay elements could give it a deeper audience other than pilot enthusiasts, is perhaps the easiest way to add another 1-2000 players initially, and if it takes off, then HTC can hire a team of aircraft and vehicle builders to expand upon the game.
I'm only speaking about the data I see...and the future isn't pretty. :(
And for all of you to go "sorry, this isn't a sub game", well, it isn't a tank game either, yet here we are. I mean honestly, if HTC adds player controllable destroyers and subs, and another 2000 players show up, ya'll be like "frack off, this is a pilots game ya navy bastiges!"
No, you'd all be :x
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 26, 2018, 02:11:22 PM
Seems if I am to take Fork as the industry expert on our game, I should delete my current terrain project, my AH account, and find a WT squad. Then tell everyone I meet at WT AH is about to go belly up because I have it on good authority from an inside expert with his finger on the pulse of HTC.
And here I was going to roll out a task group furball arena in the center of my new project to throw a CC\BB group from each country at each other inside of a center sector pond. Kind of like those tiny arenas in the competitor's timed battle boat matches. I mean Hitech needs testing and feed back some how to see if it's worth investing his valuable time programing something new like he used my first terrain to test the BB task group. I guess most importantly, because Fork has declared himslef an industry expert who is wailing away at the top of his lungs that the HTC sky is falling.
I don't see Fork or Alpini doing what I am doing with terrains to help Hitech see how his customers utilize his toys and his arenas. As always "talk is cheap" and ground on a bitter wheel with a personal AX that has someone's name etched on it with acrimony. And they just love to talk as many as they can into joining them in that burning pot of acrimony.
OK lets pass the hat to get a few crying towels in here.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Wiley on January 26, 2018, 02:18:44 PM
The brutal point is this - if something doesn't change to drastically increase the number of players in Aces High - like adding Aces Deep to the MA, we can only expect this game to last a little while longer before it is no longer operable at current subscription rates.
Adding another gameplay elements could give it a deeper audience other than pilot enthusiasts, is perhaps the easiest way to add another 1-2000 players initially, and if it takes off, then HTC can hire a team of aircraft and vehicle builders to expand upon the game.
I'm only speaking about the data I see...and the future isn't pretty. :(
And for all of you to go "sorry, this isn't a sub game", well, it isn't a tank game either, yet here we are. I mean honestly, if HTC adds player controllable destroyers and subs, and another 2000 players show up, ya'll be like "frack off, this is a pilots game ya navy bastiges!"
No, you'd all be :x
Forgetting about everything else, if the game gets this mythical 2000 submarine players, explain in detail how that will improve the aircraft players' game? Because there'll now be a bunch of submarines under the water we're flying over?
Wiley.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Lusche on January 26, 2018, 02:26:36 PM
Forgetting about everything else, if the game gets this mythical 2000 submarine players, explain in detail how that will improve the aircraft players' game? Because there'll now be a bunch of submarines under the water we're flying over?
It would be unlikely they only would do subbing all of the time, just like 'tankers' don't do tanking exclusively. Also, planes hunt submarines. :airplane:
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 26, 2018, 02:53:10 PM
Here for the Aces Low community who want sea battles, I posted this in another post in the General forum that Mongoose put up concerning a terrain I built for him last week.
You gents can always have mega sea battles or duels because all of the tools to quickly( it would take me 60 minutes) to create a task group dueling arena and put it up on the custom arena HOST. You have always had the ability to act upon your wishes just like every other player has, and like I've doing for the last 15 months.
from the other post: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that we have the ability to use negative elevations to lower objects below ground level, arch and circle objects say 1000ft dia .25-1mile long could be set into a thin volcanic wall. Then a terrain for squad level dueling setup say 8x8miles 5,000ft deep with a maze of walls and spires that have those objects set into them.
But, they might end up working like driving your PT under a bridge where for a moment you are set on the road bed during the transit and then back into the PT out the other side. You would have to discuss that phenomenon with Hitech. I've had it not happen when the space under the bridge road bed was at the maximum length of exposed support legs. So maybe there is a proximity issue.
Heck even a 19x19 pond for dueling with task groups, or a 25 mile pond shape with the center easily holding a 19x19 square. Then set the task groups on a patrol just out of visual range and let players man the guns and planes. At which point the duel is who sinks the CV first with a CM who can reset the boats for the next match. There would be a place for independent destroyers with active torpedo tubes and even a Cruiser task group to run interference. And there would be no land based bombers to get in the way, just carrier planes.
For a task group dueling arena anyone can create it since land dosen't have to be pretty. Still it would work better to border the dueling pond with land to keep the ships in the arena. You only put in a port and HQ for each country. You gotta have those for each of the three countries or the HOST won't accept the terrain. Just don't populate any task groups for one country.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 26, 2018, 02:53:12 PM
It would be unlikely they only would do subbing all of the time, just like 'tankers' don't do tanking exclusively. Also, planes hunt submarines. :airplane:
My point all along - they'll eventually end up in cockpits and gunnery seats.
Seems if I am to take Fork as the industry expert on our game, I should delete my current terrain project, my AH account, and find a WT squad. Then tell everyone I meet at WT AH is about to go belly up because I have it on good authority from an inside expert with his finger on the pulse of HTC.
And here I was going to roll out a task group furball arena in the center of my new project to throw a CC\BB group from each country at each other inside of a center sector pond. Kind of like those tiny arenas in the competitor's timed battle boat matches. I mean Hitech needs testing and feed back some how to see if it's worth investing his valuable time programing something new like he used my first terrain to test the BB task group. I guess most importantly, because Fork has declared himslef an industry expert who is wailing away at the top of his lungs that the HTC sky is falling.
I don't see Fork or Alpini doing what I am doing with terrains to help Hitech see how his customers utilize his toys and his arenas. As always "talk is cheap" and ground on a bitter wheel with a personal AX that has someone's name etched on it with acrimony. And they just love to talk as many as they can into joining them in that burning pot of acrimony.
OK lets pass the hat to get a few crying towels in here.
Bustr - I'm not going to swing out my schlong to prove my length of gaming industry experience in interface and design (which I have) because like you I'm invested in HTC's Aces High. We all have the same intent in mind - you designing AMAZING maps, me thinking about how we can improve this fantastic MMO WWII aircraft war simulator.
Bustr - How do you know how to make the right kind of maps? Because you play the game (in addition to hundreds of others prior) and you know what makes a good map. Nobody questions that. Ever. (Some try, and fail spectacularly to our entertainment). :lol
Anyways, I am in the same mindset as you - except I'm thinking about long term gaming architecture and gameplay design to increase our use base and experience by adding player controlled destroyers and subs (even if we start with just mini-subs). Just like I did over 15 years ago for another successful game series today. What I'm talking about is fundamentally shifting the focus for a bit on a different style of gameplay (naval) to help increase the membership and the war game dynamics.
Cause I'm tired of logging in and fly around for 20 minutes desperate for a fight at 15'000 ft with 130 players online on a Friday at 8pm with a map designed for 750.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Wiley on January 26, 2018, 03:09:48 PM
It would be unlikely they only would do subbing all of the time, just like 'tankers' don't do tanking exclusively. Also, planes hunt submarines. :airplane:
I just don't get it. I've seen your stats. I believe your stats. I just don't understand why it is so often when I log in what I see looks like the ratio of aircraft to GVs just doesn't seem to reflect it. At times 100+ people on, enough bardar for at best 10 enemy aircraft on both fronts.
Wiley.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Oldman731 on January 26, 2018, 03:14:15 PM
I don't see Fork or Alpini doing what I am doing with terrains to help Hitech see how his customers utilize his toys and his arenas. As always "talk is cheap" and ground on a bitter wheel with a personal AX that has someone's name etched on it with acrimony. And they just love to talk as many as they can into joining them in that burning pot of acrimony.
OK lets pass the hat to get a few crying towels in here.
I don't see Fork or Alpini being this unpleasant, either. Both are suggesting ways in which the game can be changed in a way which might attract more players. If people making such suggestions are to be restricted to those who make maps...well, the two of you enjoy your little room together.
- oldman
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 26, 2018, 03:49:35 PM
Their complaints run the bleeding edge of a flame that stops just short of point blank telling perspective new players reading them to not take part in this game because of: "I am mad at Hitech so his game is crashing and burning."
There is a cadre of vets who seem to be self infected with this chicken little virus. Some are so infected it superficially looks like turrets syndrome when they talk about Hitech, while others are convinced they have only Hitech's best interests at heart while the baby fly's out the window with the bath water that just broke it's glass.
Ultimately one has to wonder if they are assisting the competition regardless of the motivation. I choose to build terrains and test ideas to help game play instead of telling the world I think the HTC sky is falling in concert with every opening provided by the chicken little virus. Not a bad measuring stick of player concern for this game or, do I have to get infected with the chicken little virus to properly signal my virtue and solidarity?
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Lusche on January 26, 2018, 04:29:05 PM
I just don't get it. I've seen your stats. I believe your stats. I just don't understand why it is so often when I log in what I see looks like the ratio of aircraft to GVs just doesn't seem to reflect it. At times 100+ people on, enough bardar for at best 10 enemy aircraft on both fronts.
Wiley.
100 people on often just means only 60 people "inflight". That's only 20 per side. Deduct one or two in manned guns, then something like 5 in GV, and you are down to 13 already. Also, GV usage can vary immensely, driving vehicle to an enemy base is much more attractive to players when nothing else does happen. During low hours (euro day time) you can indeed have moments with >50% of 'inflight' players being in vehicles.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 26, 2018, 05:20:03 PM
Their complaints run the bleeding edge of a flame that stops just short of point blank telling perspective new players reading them to not take part in this game because of: "I am mad at Hitech so his game is crashing and burning."
There is a cadre of vets who seem to be self infected with this chicken little virus. Some are so infected it superficially looks like turrets syndrome when they talk about Hitech, while others are convinced they have only Hitech's best interests at heart while the baby fly's out the window with the bath water that just broke it's glass.
Ultimately one has to wonder if they are assisting the competition regardless of the motivation. I choose to build terrains and test ideas to help game play instead of telling the world I think the HTC sky is falling in concert with every opening provided by the chicken little virus. Not a bad measuring stick of player concern for this game or, do I have to get infected with the chicken little virus to properly signal my virtue and solidarity?
Neither...we're not saying the sky is falling. And I'm not a vet who thinks the sky is falling - we just want to ensure that HTC is successful long term - current subscriber base IS keeping this company going otherwise we wouldn't be beer... I mean here (dang u Friday brain :cheers:)
What we're proposing is a substantial enhancement to an already excellent platform.
And what we're actually saying is that by attracting more players to this sim with destroyers and subs, most will actually end up flying as well, or tanking. Or manning AAA guns in a CV or BB formation. Or running suppliers to a damaged field. Or flying troops NOE in a C-47 to an airfield. That is what Lusche is also saying... plus he likes to sink subs from his plane. :D
Plus, for those of us who fly, it gives us a lot more interesting targets and more players if our membership base grows. Win win IMHO.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: alpini13 on January 26, 2018, 07:13:30 PM
i like the idea of subs being hunted by planes...that would be awesome
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 26, 2018, 07:48:43 PM
You gents can always have mega sea battles or duels because all of the tools to quickly( it would take me 60 minutes) to create a task group dueling arena and put it up on the custom arena HOST. You have always had the ability to act upon your wishes just like every other player has, and like I've doing for the last 15 months.
I appreciate what you do for this community, Bustr, and the project you describe is exactly the terrain I wanted to design (but, damn, I still find the TE a hard tool to use - especially when time is once again a rare commodity). Don't fret all who claim that this game/community is dying and only they know what will breathe life back into it. The wishlist was never about game cpr, in my opinion. It was just about wishes (some good, some bad, some ugly). :)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mano on January 26, 2018, 08:38:05 PM
Every single one of us wants AH to succeed. We have all put in allot of time in this game because it is fun. If anyone posts a suggestion here accept it or don't accept it, but don't discourage others from leaving a post in this forum.
Everyone that plays has a different point of view. We all have different interests in game play in Aces High and there is allot to keep us entertained on any given night.
The Wishlist is here for everyone to make a suggestion. If it is a good idea and it can be programmed, then HiTech will implement it. We have seen allot of positive improvements over the years and it will continue to grow. Optimism Ladies and Gents.
:salute
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 26, 2018, 08:40:01 PM
I appreciate what you so for this community, Bustr, and the project you describe is exactly the terrain I wanted to design (but, damn, I still find the TE a hard tool to use - especially when time is once again a rare commodity). Don't fret all who claim that this game/community is dying and only they know what will breathe life back into it. The wishlist was never about game cpr, in my opinion. It was just about wishes (some good, some bad, some ugly). :)
I will make this one for you just for the custom arena HOST with three ports\HQ and two CV\BB task groups at each port in a task group dueling pond limited to a 19x19 area. Just like I did for Mongoose and his two side beginners terrain called Mongoose where he wants to help newbies get their chops up. I'll post this up on the HOST and make the project files available to you in a zip file after you check it out offline at home to verify it does what you want. After that I have no clue how you get people in to do task group dueling.
So you want a task group dueling arena for the custom terrain HOST? Since you will have the project files, you can make any changes you want after that. I like the idea and I think you are the guy to pull it off if it's going to happen.
Here is a screen shot of what Mongoose asked me to make for him.
(https://s20.postimg.org/6nyc4d23x/mongoos2.jpg)
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 26, 2018, 09:40:34 PM
I will make this one for you just for the custom arena HOST with three ports\HQ and two CV\BB task groups at each port in a task group dueling pond limited to a 19x19 area. Just like I did for Mongoose and his two side beginners terrain called Mongoose where he wants to help newbies get their chops up. I'll post this up on the HOST and make the project files available to you in a zip file after you check it out offline at home to verify it does what you want. After that I have no clue how you get people in to do task group dueling.
So you want a task group dueling arena for the custom terrain HOST? Since you will have the project files, you can make any changes you want after that. I like the idea and I think you are the guy to pull it off if it's going to happen.
Here is a screen shot of what Mongoose asked me to make for him.
(https://s20.postimg.org/6nyc4d23x/mongoos2.jpg)
Thank you. When summer hits, I'll work on mastering TE to take some of the load off ya. :salute
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 27, 2018, 03:45:24 PM
I've already designed it, won't take much time to get you a test terrain to inspect the layout for tweeks I would need to do. Then I would post it to the HOST and give you the zipped up project files. Once you have the finished product, then you can play with that project for offline learning. You would simply rename that folder and unzip the original project and edit it if you had updates you wanted to incorporate into the first one I would update to the HOST for you.
If you want to learn how to use the tools in the terrain editor, create a terrain set to a map size of 64, set the elevation tool to 5000 and its maximum diameter of 6 miles. Click in the water and start trying out the tools against that 5000ft 6mile diameter block. Now you cannot mess anything up and just carve away everything that does not look like what you want. If you don't like what you are doing, you can erase it by setting the elevation tool to -1000 or put the block back in place with 5000 or any smaller number you want. It gets pretty obvious from that point after you run a few tools against the land block.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: lunatic1 on January 28, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
My final word and vote which don't mount to a spot of spit on the sidewalk in the summertime is we don't need submarines so my vote is -1
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: The Fugitive on January 28, 2018, 02:16:10 PM
My final word and vote which don't mount to a spot of spit on the sidewalk in the summertime is we don't need submarines so my vote is -1
Who says ANY of us get a vote? :neener:
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 28, 2018, 02:24:31 PM
A Cruiser task group and even a single player controlled destroyer with working torpedo's. The objects and task group function already exist, it would be the 3D bridges and weapons selection hangers that Waffle would have to add on. The function may well be a variation on the bomber box function for the captain and gunners. One 16in salvo or bombs will make the destroyer a suicide ride but, enable the smoke screen and maybe it would survive long enough to get into torpedo range. Even PT's chasing ships is a suicide ride. After 15 years I suspect the single player destroyer would be one of the destroyers in a task group, maybe an additional one added to the object group for each task group. That would be a keystone cops whine fest here in the forums over all the wresting of command back and forth getting nothing accomplished. In this game whatever we ride in it's all lone wolf which for a slow moving large object like a destroyer with virtually no defense, a suicide ride of epic fail. Probably why Hitech only makes task groups.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Mister Fork on January 28, 2018, 03:15:28 PM
A Cruiser task group and even a single player controlled destroyer with working torpedo's. The objects and task group function already exist, it would be the 3D bridges and weapons selection hangers that Waffle would have to add on. The function may well be a variation on the bomber box function for the captain and gunners. One 16in salvo or bombs will make the destroyer a suicide ride but, enable the smoke screen and maybe it would survive long enough to get into torpedo range. Even PT's chasing ships is a suicide ride. After 15 years I suspect the single player destroyer would be one of the destroyers in a task group, maybe an additional one added to the object group for each task group. That would be a keystone cops whine fest here in the forums over all the wresting of command back and forth getting nothing accomplished. In this game whatever we ride in it's all lone wolf which for a slow moving large object like a destroyer with virtually no defense, a suicide ride of epic fail. Probably why Hitech only makes task groups.
Very true. But that would mean that all engagements are SPD (single player destroyer) versus a CV or BB. You could get SPD vs SPD or SPD vs port or SPD vs PT boats.
During WWII, it was absolute suicide for a destroyer to take on any larger war vessel. Some may get lucky, but a volley of 8" rounds from a cruiser would send them to the bottom in a minute...as happened during many naval battles during the PTO against the IJN (fierce naval engagements - always). No different if I was to take on a CV task force in a SPD. Absolute nutty to think it would work.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Chris79 on January 28, 2018, 03:36:59 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 28, 2018, 04:20:52 PM
Very true. But that would mean that all engagements are SPD (single player destroyer) versus a CV or BB. You could get SPD vs SPD or SPD vs port or SPD vs PT boats.
During WWII, it was absolute suicide for a destroyer to take on any larger war vessel. Some may get lucky, but a volley of 8" rounds from a cruiser would send them to the bottom in a minute...as happened during many naval battles during the PTO against the IJN (fierce naval engagements - always). No different if I was to take on a CV task force in a SPD. Absolute nutty to think it would work.
And in the face of this understanding to how that works in our game, solo cruisers and destroyers are wished for year after year. The task group configuration in our game is for self defense more than projecting power. The planes are for projecting power. The BB task group, game wise has the destructive power of it's guns to project enough power to make it viable. Yet its still just as vulnerable as the CV to our bombers. Solo is suicide unless it's an airplane.
Once again it comes down to what can be presented to Hitech based on how our game functions, is worth the trouble so he is not releasing a suicide ride that will eventually go unused after it's novelty wears off after a week. Players respond here in the forums with their emotions that "everyone" will think it's a fantastic idea and they can "almost, just about, pretty sure" guarantee it will have players standing in line to get at it 24x7. Because they think their earnestness will sway Hitech against his experience to get their suicide ride that they will probably not use after the first week or two themselves. Our sea game has proven over years, groups of ships are viable as game tools that get used.
A submarine, out there with the PT for any real effectiveness other than being able to hide and sneak around all night by a tiny group of players. And how much a PBY could do other than get it's pilot towered. Have you considered since Hitech introduced GVDAR for reasons related to hiding that he would release something to make subs stand out becasue of his philosophical position on his combat game?
There seems to be an over arching interest these days into being able to hide and sneak around at all costs. I guess it's to be expected because that is an underlying tactic to success in so many other styles of shoot-em up games.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 28, 2018, 04:24:12 PM
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: bustr on January 28, 2018, 06:15:59 PM
You gents might have room to present the idea of a Cruiser task group, active torpedo's on the destroyers, and expand the port facility to launch PBY, Emily, Sterling in the bay. And extend the runway to launch wildcat, A6m2\3, seafire, SBD and D3a. Remember on buzzsaw the brewster and I16 are enabled at vBases. There is some precedence within the existing framework and code. Too often you gents go about this from the wrong position.
I'm considering for my new terrain asking if at the two vBases in each country I can launch Brewster, I16, F4f-4, Ki43 and Yak7. Consider why the Brewster and I16 were chosen on buzzsaw. The Yak7 is pushing the envelop to what I suspect was the reasoning.
Title: Re: ok..dont laugh...SUBMARINES, limited
Post by: Arlo on January 29, 2018, 11:45:27 AM