General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DaveBB on July 20, 2018, 04:09:19 PM
Title: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on July 20, 2018, 04:09:19 PM
In biology, there is an entire field dedicated to the letter K. It stands for carrying capacity. How many organisms an environment can support. It's similar to the law of diminishing returns. If it weren't for this pesky fact, one could grow the entire world's food supply in a single flower pot. But there's a catch. There is always a limiting factor. Some are basic items, like food, shelter, water. Others get more complicated. Territory, mates, interspecies rivalry, pollution.
Years ago when I studied biology, my instructor informed me that the consensus of the carrying capacity of the Earth was 12-20 billion (his opinion was 12 billion). When carrying capacity is reached, it is not a pretty site, be it humans or animals. It involves famine, violence, starvation, cannibalism. Though some animals are better suited for rebounding from carrying capacity than others (sardines vs grizzly bears).
Anyhow, I believe a large part of the chaotic nature we see in our modern day world can be explained by approaching this carrying capacity. As of right now, the limiting factors appear to be water, ideology, and territory. Though ideology for the time being may be the main limiting factor.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 20, 2018, 04:20:37 PM
Too political. :bolt:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: oakranger on July 20, 2018, 04:23:57 PM
Fritz Haber change that carry capacity by stooping starvation.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Puma44 on July 20, 2018, 05:38:25 PM
Humin greed is the key factor.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: perdue3 on July 20, 2018, 06:26:12 PM
Easter Island was a hint.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 20, 2018, 07:06:46 PM
This. I use this example to explain the situation to others myself. Its really a cut and dry example. That or bacteria in a petri dish lined with nutrients.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Nefarious on July 20, 2018, 08:40:25 PM
Human overpopulation is a myth.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 20, 2018, 08:48:41 PM
And the FIRST ONE IN the IN category prize goes too... :aok Wait does it count if it is misspelling of a word to get IN? :devil
:rofl
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: BuckShot on July 21, 2018, 06:46:12 AM
The carrying capacity increases when we start raising insects for food? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: nrshida on July 21, 2018, 07:06:20 AM
David Attenborough did a very good one-off documentary about this. In his lifetime he said the human population had gone from a reasonably stable 2 billion to 6.4 and since he made that it's higher.
Denser populations make ideal vectors for epidemics. Cordyceps for humans anyone?:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 21, 2018, 07:20:46 AM
The carrying capacity increases when we start raising insects for food? Just a thought.
We could start with not wasting half of what we produce..
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on July 21, 2018, 11:51:52 AM
I watched some documentaries on overpopulation. I have deduced what will be when humans reach 12 billion (price gouging worldwide), 15 billion (food riots), 20 billion (food czars), 25 billion (mass starvations), 30 billion (cannibalism), 35 billion (animal cloning), 40 billion (insect diet), 45 billion (food paste consisting of protein and carbs and calories), and finally when the home sapiens club reaches the stupendous count of 50 billion, then
we have reached the necessary numerical count to bring forth the arrival of aliens who require us for their nutritional requirements. Said alien arrival will be the aristocrats who will numbers in the hundreds and sustain their economic system implementing homo sapiens as a prized commodity.
It's a shame I won't live to see this fulfillment. I am very confident that my alien worth will be 1 million kasukas and special honor of being sent to the alien home world and being served to the High Muckey Duckey as a well roasted and BBQ glazed meal.
Until then, Mother Earth is vast and capable of supporting over 999 nonillion organisms at one time. Oxygen levels will last another 1 billion years and 4 billion more for light with gradual warming trends in the future resulting in eventual evaporation of the oceans after 2 more billion years.
I trust this will calm your fears and let you get back to worrying about more pressing concerns.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Ramesis on July 21, 2018, 11:53:55 AM
IMHO, nature, the universe and the earth have an innate method for correcting imbalances... EXTINCTION I really do not think we have anything to worry about :cheers: Either nature will render us obsolete or the universe will :aok
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 21, 2018, 12:22:00 PM
Cue George CarlIN.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on July 21, 2018, 01:38:22 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Meatwad on July 21, 2018, 01:43:42 PM
I watched some documentaries on overpopulation. I have deduced what will be when humans reach 12 billion (price gouging worldwide), 15 billion (food riots), 20 billion (food czars), 25 billion (mass starvations), 30 billion (cannibalism), 35 billion (animal cloning), 40 billion (insect diet), 45 billion (food paste consisting of protein and carbs and calories), and finally when the home sapiens club reaches the stupendous count of 50 billion, then
we have reached the necessary numerical count to bring forth the arrival of aliens who require us for their nutritional requirements. Said alien arrival will be the aristocrats who will numbers in the hundreds and sustain their economic system implementing homo sapiens as a prized commodity.
It's a shame I won't live to see this fulfillment. I am very confident that my alien worth will be 1 million kasukas and special honor of being sent to the alien home world and being served to the High Muckey Duckey as a well roasted and BBQ glazed meal.
Until then, Mother Earth is vast and capable of supporting over 999 nonillion organisms at one time. Oxygen levels will last another 1 billion years and 4 billion more for light with gradual warming trends in the future resulting in eventual evaporation of the oceans after 2 more billion years.
I trust this will calm your fears and let you get back to worrying about more pressing concerns.
Until the Spaceballs come and steal our air :old:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DubiousKB on July 21, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
IMHO, nature, the universe and the earth have an innate method for correcting imbalances... EXTINCTION I really do not think we have anything to worry about :cheers: Either nature will render us obsolete or the universe will :aok
99.99% of all species that lived on this planet are extinct. We's just another mosquito drinking our glorious drink before mother earth slaps us into a pile of goo.
We started as goo, we will end as goo...
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on July 21, 2018, 04:21:45 PM
We need a world project to massively irrigate the Sahara desert. That would create an exponential ability for crops and grazing potential.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: mbailey on July 21, 2018, 08:24:21 PM
"We’re going away. Pack your stuff, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas."
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 21, 2018, 08:36:00 PM
"We’re going away. Pack your stuff, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas."
“The Earth isn’t going ANYWHERE.......WE ARE!”
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: bozon on July 22, 2018, 03:12:36 AM
We will not reach numbers in the 10s of billions. The population is growing the fastest in the places and cultures that can least support it. Prepare to close your borders and run an endless string of "XXX aid" donation events to make us feel like good humanitarians while they parish.
Grim, but oh so predictable.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Oldman731 on July 22, 2018, 08:59:00 AM
We will not reach numbers in the 10s of billions. The population is growing the fastest in the places and cultures that can least support it. Prepare to close your borders and run an endless string of "XXX aid" donation events to make us feel like good humanitarians while they parish.
Grim, but oh so predictable.
We will, the reason the population is growing is because of lower mortality rates and increased life expectancy. Number of births have been constant for a long time. The peak will be somewhere around 11-12 billion at the end of the century. Anything lower than that will require a massive genocide.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 22, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
We will, the reason the population is growing is because of lower mortality rates and increased life expectancy. Number of births have been constant for a long time. The peak will be somewhere around 11-12 billion at the end of the century. Anything lower than that will require a massive genocide.
Stabilized societies reach replacement-level births over deaths. Until you elevate the Somalias of the world to that point you’ll continue this trend.
I asked in Nigeria why people have ten kids even with almost no income. The children grow up and care for their elderly parents. More kids means one has more people to look after him/her. It’s unsustainable, but that’s their mindset.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on July 22, 2018, 10:49:15 PM
Interesting topic! :aok The increasing overweight population in western world, could destabilize the Earth, fall off the orbit into the darkness of space or cause polar shift, North America could move to the bottom replace Antarctica at South Pole turn us all into penguins . https://youtu.be/cesSRfXqS1Q
"There is no matter as such... ...This mind is the matrix of all matter " Max Planck 1944 https://youtu.be/QiZLlpqAQ7U The Earth and material world is made out of some sort of quantum foam, floating all around us ,like pizza dough, raw data and our mind, thoughts ,consciousness adds the topping, turns it solid material ilussionary reality ; we the observers collapses the wave function, turn waves in matter. I have this photo on my desktop for awhile, helps me get over bad day and not to grasp at things;https://wakeup-world.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Thought-Provoking-Quantum-Experiments-Show-Reality-is-Only-an-Illusion1.jpg I imagine it works like this; (https://ladiesinredparedvini.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/wpid-tumblr_nezvxq9jl21ru2k0go1_4001.gif?w=400&zoom=2)
or in Volkswagen commercial ;https://youtu.be/xSA0OtmzGAQ
It's an incredibly advanced alien holographic simulation , they can split the arena and shift population, same like in game few years ago, parallel worlds do exist. Rene Decarts believed we are sitting inside the pineal gland , he called it the seat of the souls , controlling this bodies bio machines and generating reality via 3rd eye . I believe we not here, it's just a test simulation for soul punishment and recycling when we leave we have the oculus rift removed and meet our masters . We are not here all the time, my yogi guru used to say after evening sessions; "See you in astral" . We spend almost one third of our life sleeping ,outside of this realm, our true self transcedes beyond 3D ,floating in higher dimensions astral worlds where we belong , where time and matter don't ..matter. Perhaps the aliens switch the computers in energy saving mode send us to sleep. It's an illussion ; https://youtu.be/qgJAKBryCr0
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 23, 2018, 12:32:49 AM
Earth is no where close to being over capacity. Infact, some theories suggest the 7B people is not even accurate. That being said, transportation is the biggest problem facing our society today (besides the media). With transportation, people can live further apart. Have you ever flown across the US? It is incredibly huge, so much barren empty land where people could live. What do we have though? People living in square boxes the size of a prison cell in a city compact with thousands of people. With better transportation, we could spread people out to cheaper areas and begin to develop those economies. With better and faster transportation, billions of uninhabited square acres of land can be areas for homes for people. Without this kind of transportation, we will not advance very much further as a society.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on July 23, 2018, 04:45:34 AM
Earth is no where close to being over capacity. Infact, some theories suggest the 7B people is not even accurate. That being said, transportation is the biggest problem facing our society today (besides the media). With transportation, people can live further apart. Have you ever flown across the US? It is incredibly huge, so much barren empty land where people could live. What do we have though? People living in square boxes the size of a prison cell in a city compact with thousands of people. With better transportation, we could spread people out to cheaper areas and begin to develop those economies. With better and faster transportation, billions of uninhabited square acres of land can be areas for homes for people. Without this kind of transportation, we will not advance very much further as a society.
I prefer cities keep their problems in their city.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: zack1234 on July 23, 2018, 07:16:37 AM
If people were not as fat would there be more room?
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Chris79 on July 23, 2018, 08:04:46 AM
Drive from Indianapolis to Omaha on I80, 600 or so miles of endless Corn. 99% of that corn goes to either ethanol or stock feed not direct human consumption. The problem lies with the fact the agricultural production and human population growth tend to exist in separate geographical areas. Making certain countries like the United States, Canada, Argentina, ect far below carrying capacity, but other countries such as Bengladesh, Egypt, Uganda, ect which have high relative populations above carrying capacity. Education seems to be the driver. Developed nations with higher levels of education tend to have low, or even negative population growth, those countries also have the economic capability to purchase food if they are unable to internally meet domestic demand. Unfortunately, countries to are prone to famine have low education, relatively high population, low education, and lack the means to purchase food from other countries.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on July 23, 2018, 08:50:11 AM
Some countries they produce like animals still. They have.lots of offspring hoping some will survive. You will see 10 kids all malnourished but the mom seems to be pretty well fed.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 23, 2018, 09:37:17 AM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 23, 2018, 10:10:35 AM
Drive from Indianapolis to Omaha on I80, 600 or so miles of endless Corn. 99% of that corn goes to either ethanol or stock feed not direct human consumption. The problem lies with the fact the agricultural production and human population growth tend to exist in separate geographical areas. Making certain countries like the United States, Canada, Argentina, ect far below carrying capacity, but other countries such as Bengladesh, Egypt, Uganda, ect which have high relative populations above carrying capacity. Education seems to be the driver. Developed nations with higher levels of education tend to have low, or even negative population growth, those countries also have the economic capability to purchase food if they are unable to internally meet domestic demand. Unfortunately, countries to are prone to famine have low education, relatively high population, low education, and lack the means to purchase food from other countries.
I guess Darwin was onto something...
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Chris79 on July 23, 2018, 10:52:08 AM
The point was, not that I am a proponent of this is, the 1st world nations devote most of its arable land to crops that strictly feed livestock, i.e meat production. I can understand the argument, use more cropland for basic food stuffs Wheat, Rye, Barley ect, and less for Corn, Sorgum, and Soy. Furthermore, there are still massive tracts of land in the American south dedicated strictly for timber production, although the soil is not the best 'clay' with modern tech, it could be very productive farm land. Personally, i like my pork chops and beef sirloin, and would rather keep them at its current cost. My "aunt in law" worked for the U.N as a aid worker in Ghana, and the few times we've talked, it confirms Vraciu's previous statement.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 23, 2018, 11:06:54 AM
Well, as you noted, it's insane to me that we burn our food to drive cars.
The other problem we have is taxation. Our tax code promotes buying up land, wiping out the farming and low-density housing areas (country homes, small ranches, etc.) for cookie-cutter houses jammed roof to roof. The area I grew up in is a prime example. When I was a kid I had an orchard on three sides of my house. That area is now about as population dense as Rwanda--and not much richer.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 23, 2018, 12:23:23 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 23, 2018, 12:29:56 PM
+1
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 23, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 23, 2018, 04:28:24 PM
We are nowhere close to using up all capacity of the earth.
Humans are very robust and can live in more conditions and on more types of food than just about any other creature. We live in a wider variety of places than cockroaches and rats. We can survive off of food that would kill a chimp and that bacteria can't even eat.
Add to this that birthrate decreases as standard of living rises, and that standard of living is rising in the world, and I doubt we will get to an overpopulation crisis.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 23, 2018, 04:29:11 PM
I'm not a malthusian.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 23, 2018, 04:32:27 PM
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on July 23, 2018, 04:36:22 PM
A lot of this so called issue would be corrected by thinning out the so called scientist. There are so many that the ones that are not busy are coming up with all kinds a granola for people to "think" they need to worry about.
:aok
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on July 23, 2018, 07:31:39 PM
Technology and experimental hermetic closed bio-spheres should give us the potential for artic, desert and underwater cities.
As Dr. Ian Malcom famously said, "Life finds a way."
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Meatwad on July 23, 2018, 10:12:51 PM
Soylent Green :old:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 24, 2018, 12:11:37 AM
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 24, 2018, 12:54:26 AM
IMO, the biggest problem facing species extinction is modern medicine. We have come so far with meds, that we are basically killing our selves in the future by saving us in the now. Think about it...as far as I can see, there has always been Heart Disease, Diabetes, Cancers and STDs, among other melodies, only NOW we can keep them around and breeding. Sounds harsh I KNOW. Its the right thing to do...but every action has an equal and opposite reaction! Its no more survival of the fittest, its the survival of the best access to medical care. On a SERIOUS NOTE...OUTLAW Plastic Surgery!!!!!! We as men gravitate to beautiful women...if we dont know how our partners really look...WE are DOOMING our posterity to lack luster genes! lol
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 24, 2018, 01:13:46 AM
IMO, the biggest problem facing species extinction is modern medicine. We have come so far with meds, that we are basically killing our selves in the future by saving us in the now. Think about it...as far as I can see, there has always been Heart Disease, Diabetes, Cancers and STDs, among other melodies, only NOW we can keep them around and breeding. Sounds harsh I KNOW. Its the right thing to do...but every action has an equal and opposite reaction! Its no more survival of the fittest, its the survival of the best access to medical care. On a SERIOUS NOTE...OUTLAW Plastic Surgery!!!!!! We as men gravitate to beautiful women...if we dont know how our partners really look...WE are DOOMING our posterity to lack luster genes! lol
That is a misconception - you cannot cheat evolution. The fittest survive and carry on, but the criteria for evaluating "fittest" change. The only thing humans can do is to rock our evolution boat hard enough until it capsizes - but then the joke is on us. By that I mean that we extinct ourselves.
We are nowhere close to using up all capacity of the earth.
Humans are very robust and can live in more conditions and on more types of food than just about any other creature. We live in a wider variety of places than cockroaches and rats. We can survive off of food that would kill a chimp and that bacteria can't even eat.
Add to this that birthrate decreases as standard of living rises, and that standard of living is rising in the world, and I doubt we will get to an overpopulation crisis.
Yes, but would you LIKE to survive on food that will kill a chimp? Unless the food IS the chimp, my answer would be no. I want more than just survive.
The birth rates in the "west" (this includes Japan S. Korea etc) are going down, but that is not where the world population is. The majority of the world population are still reproducing at high enough rates and that is worse because thay are creating more people who are poor from birth, live with the poor, and will never be anything other than uneducated poor with lots of poor children of their own.
The world does not need to reach max capacity for a tragedy on mass scale - it is enough that regions of it reach capacity limits. The violence and suffering will then spill over to the more advanced civilizations that think that they are safe because we have not reached total global capacity.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: BOBO on July 24, 2018, 05:43:35 AM
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: TWCAxew on July 24, 2018, 07:16:36 AM
Humanity is a pest that will destroy the world eventually. We will turn to ashes and a new life form will take our place only to discover our past civilizations and repeat the cycle. Untill either the sun stops working or when they are like an ant collective and are able to colonize space to brake the cycle.
Untill than I enjoy the ride :cheers:
DutchVII
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 24, 2018, 07:31:36 AM
:confused: :bolt:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: nrshida on July 24, 2018, 07:47:47 AM
True, confirmed in Godzilla 2 trailer "...we are the infection..." https://youtu.be/CT3eA2t2G28
Lol! I should become a movie script writer :rofl
I am gonna watch out for that movie :D
DutchVII
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on July 24, 2018, 10:23:41 AM
Someone mentioned living underwater......I don't think so (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4779682/)!
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: pembquist on July 24, 2018, 10:53:32 AM
Here is one person who thinks it will level off around 11 billion: https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI (https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI)
Where people live:https://www.gapminder.org/answers/where-do-people-live/ (https://www.gapminder.org/answers/where-do-people-live/)
I think it is fairly obvious that with the technology we have right now we cannot just scale up our lifestyle globally, not everyone in the world can drive a buick, that just won't work. On the other hand I don't think we necessarily have to live lives of hardship and deprivation. There is still plenty of fat to cut out in terms of profligate waste with existing tech and it is not like innovation is over.
My personal wonder about is whether or not there is going to be another full out industrial and technological war. If that happens and humans hold true to form, (that being that people don't stop fighting till exhausted,) I think things will get pretty miserable and dark ages like.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 24, 2018, 11:27:48 AM
Here is one person who thinks it will level off around 11 billion: https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI (https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI)
Where people live:https://www.gapminder.org/answers/where-do-people-live/ (https://www.gapminder.org/answers/where-do-people-live/)
I think it is fairly obvious that with the technology we have right now we cannot just scale up our lifestyle globally, not everyone in the world can drive a buick, that just won't work. On the other hand I don't think we necessarily have to live lives of hardship and deprivation. There is still plenty of fat to cut out in terms of profligate waste with existing tech and it is not like innovation is over.
My personal wonder about is whether or not there is going to be another full out industrial and technological war. If that happens and humans hold true to form, (that being that people don't stop fighting till exhausted,) I think things will get pretty miserable and dark ages like.
I disagree. We have the resources to significantly upgrade lifestyles. The problem is that you can’t teach a Nigerian to think like an American unless you immerse them. They think cooking with diesel is normal and you can explain the harm in it until you’re blue in the face, it won’t matter. But at least everyone has a cell phone.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: pembquist on July 24, 2018, 01:16:35 PM
With regard to upgrading lifestyle, cell phone yes Buick no. What I mean is that I don't believe 11 Billion people can have our lifestyle if it is produced as it is now. Just like we wouldn't have smartphones if we still made computers like this: https://youtu.be/YIBhPsyYCiM (https://youtu.be/YIBhPsyYCiM)
What I like to reflect on is how different the world was in 1927 from 1947. Just 20 years!
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 24, 2018, 01:54:31 PM
Once all of the cockroaches get smushed for crimes against humanity (cough Executive Order cough). We will finally stop the gangs from suppressing new age transportation and healthcare methods. The tech has already been discovered and suppressed. Healthcare treatments have been discovered and supressed. We already have the technology to advance in terms of healthcare and transportation. The space force will prove that we have it. They didn't want a space force because they do everything on a black budget. Now they won't be able to that as easily.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 24, 2018, 02:33:07 PM
With regard to upgrading lifestyle, cell phone yes Buick no. What I mean is that I don't believe 11 Billion people can have our lifestyle if it is produced as it is now. Just like we wouldn't have smartphones if we still made computers like this: https://youtu.be/YIBhPsyYCiM (https://youtu.be/YIBhPsyYCiM)
What I like to reflect on is how different the world was in 1927 from 1947. Just 20 years!
Bruh, we've built enough cars on this planet for everyone to own three. There is no problem with everyone owning a car. The issues are that globalization is driving (no pun intended) everything to be owned by a few centralized companies in some fictitious global market (don't get me started) rather than in numerous national/regional economies. Why? Profit margin.
ARBITRAGE. It's a lifestyle killer.
When I went to business school we were taught things like "normal profit" and morality in terms of how much to charge. Nobody discusses that any more.
If Nigeria and that region were developed regionally into an economic system like the US's they would all own Buicks. As it stands now, they own a lot of cars, they just don't have A/C most of the time and just about all of them have a check engine light on...
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 24, 2018, 03:11:29 PM
That is a misconception - you cannot cheat evolution. The fittest survive and carry on, but the criteria for evaluating "fittest" change. The only thing humans can do is to rock our evolution boat hard enough until it capsizes - but then the joke is on us. By that I mean that we extinct ourselves. Yes, but would you LIKE to survive on food that will kill a chimp? Unless the food IS the chimp, my answer would be no. I want more than just survive.
The birth rates in the "west" (this includes Japan S. Korea etc) are going down, but that is not where the world population is. The majority of the world population are still reproducing at high enough rates and that is worse because thay are creating more people who are poor from birth, live with the poor, and will never be anything other than uneducated poor with lots of poor children of their own.
The world does not need to reach max capacity for a tragedy on mass scale - it is enough that regions of it reach capacity limits. The violence and suffering will then spill over to the more advanced civilizations that think that they are safe because we have not reached total global capacity.
That was the point I was TRYING :uhoh to make. WE are rocking that boat pretty hard. It just seems counter productive to said evolutionary changes if we tamper with WHAT IT MEANS TO BE "FITTEST". Sure it will eventually equal out,but not till after taking a step backwards. Its all a great big mystery really..such is life. Why worry..its a waste of time :cheers:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: zack1234 on July 24, 2018, 03:35:09 PM
Humanity is a pest that will destroy the world eventually. We will turn to ashes and a new life form will take our place only to discover our past civilizations and repeat the cycle. Untill either the sun stops working or when they are like an ant collective and are able to colonize space to brake the cycle.
Untill than I enjoy the ride :cheers:
DutchVII
Gibberish
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 24, 2018, 04:49:19 PM
Yes, but would you LIKE to survive on food that will kill a chimp?
Sure! I like Big Macs, pizza, spaghetti, tacos, chili, fish and chips, meat pies, sausages, potato chips, french fries, ice cream, milk, cheese, pickles, kimchi, sushi, thai food, pho, chocolate bars, bacon, and fried eggs just fine. ;)
But to be more serious about it, my feeling is that humans on average on the planet will not run into any malthusian wall or get even close to it.
I believe that birthrate everywhere -- including Africa -- will eventually decline to or below replacement rate, that it is just a matter of time until even Africa's standard of living increases enough to reduce birth rate.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 24, 2018, 04:57:05 PM
David Attenborough did a very good one-off documentary about this. In his lifetime he said the human population had gone from a reasonably stable 2 billion to 6.4 and since he made that it's higher.
Denser populations make ideal vectors for epidemics. Cordyceps for humans anyone?:
I think something like this is the most likely next huge challenge for humans.
As for carrying capacity, there's going to be multiple answers. An un-augmented "natural" capacity (which we may have exceeded thousands of years ago), a level using basic Newtonian physics level engineering augmentation (basic agriculture, water reclamation, human-stacking in high rise apartments), and a capacity that requires technologies we are just now starting to dabble in. Engineered chemical energy sources and storage. Genetic modification to increase food output. "Clean" energy sources that are so abundant they're effectively free after the infrastructure is built (space based solar is a first step). Matter-energy conversion that makes water purification "free". Engineered materials that permits rapid infrastructure growth while reducing maintenance requirements.
With sufficiently advanced science applied to the problem, the carrying capacity becomes effectively space-constrained. Moving food and energy production into space will let us utilize the entire earth's surface plus high-rises and sub-surface area for people. At that point we may have figured out space travel to the point where we can either colonize other places, or strip other planets or solar systems of resources to feed our own.
Without basic agricultural engineering and materials sciences that give us metals petrochemicals glass and other composites, we're effectively at the carrying capacity of north America prior to the euro invasion, pre-1500s or so, and that's a very very low population density.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: eagl on July 24, 2018, 05:38:25 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM
What is really stupid is using more than 1 gallon of gasoline of energy to produce 1 gallon of gasoline of energy in ethanol.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: pembquist on July 24, 2018, 06:30:21 PM
What is really stupid is using more than 1 gallon of gasoline of energy to produce 1 gallon of gasoline of energy in ethanol.
Ahh, but you make it up in volume!
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on July 24, 2018, 07:17:15 PM
Corn is not really wasted in ethanol production, the process of fermentation turns starch/sugars only in alcohol. The byproduct still has proteins and fats contained in seed are used as animal chickens feed, anyway over 60% of corn production is used for animals feed turned into proteins for human consumption, meat, mil, eggs . Not a bright idea, i replaced my EGR cooler last week,bio is killing the engines, less energy /volume more soot and wearing.
https://youtu.be/XROVcSC7mds
https://youtu.be/D5uX_U3FiKA
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on July 24, 2018, 07:41:56 PM
Someone mentioned living underwater......I don't think so (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4779682/)!
That was me. in case of that scenario, just splash the water with your hand and https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=HNwnTdx7&id=0A7723E6BFA2C3992BF12D1B03053CB72D6CD0E3&thid=OIP.HNwnTdx7ga1d4J7va_yg7QHaC4&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fibdp.huluim.com%2fshow_art%2f1838%3fsize%3d900x350&exph=350&expw=900&q=flipper+tv+show+pics&simid=608016016983788312&selectedIndex=13&qpvt=flipper+tv+show+pics&ajaxhist=0 will come to the rescue.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 24, 2018, 07:51:20 PM
Corn is not really wasted in ethanol production, the process of fermentation turns starch/sugars only in alcohol. The byproduct still has proteins and fats contained in seed are used as animal chickens feed, anyway over 60% of corn production is used for animals feed turned into proteins for human consumption, meat, mil, eggs . Not a bright idea, i replaced my EGR cooler last week,bio is killing the engines, less energy /volume more soot and wearing.
It should exceed 60%. Supply and demand. We’ve created an artificial demand through regulation that has spiked prices.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: eagl on July 24, 2018, 11:34:37 PM
Food prices have not magically increased for no reason. It’s demand.
I think it's also transport, storage, distribution, and increased regulation. Cheap fuel and energy lowers all those costs except for regulation. Regulation is a double-edged sword... Some of the regulations are dumb but others keep us from pretty much all getting sick every week eating food grown all over the planet.
The other day I ate an orange grown over 1500 miles away. It cost me 50 cents. Seems cheap to me, all things considered.
Also, consider that a great deal of food is somewhat price controlled in order to keep farmers from going out of business. Yields are high enough in the US that if the farmers aren't subsidized either directly or by jacking up prices above a market supply/demand equilibrium level, we won't have very many farmers anymore. Seems like a small price to pay, and I'd rather give my $$$ to the people who grow my food than pay more taxes and let the govt ensure our food supply.
Also related... It's important to remember that gas/oil prices rise for three reasons. First is not enough actual supply. Second is artificial supply controls intended to maximize profit and level out seasonal production. Third is demand. Right now, gas and oil prices (ie. "energy" prices) are high due to demand. That's a good thing because it means the economy is booming. There will be a new equilibrium level where energy supplies start to hamper overall industrial and economic activity (not growth, but activity) and at that point we'll see some artificial supply constraints to prevent oil prices from plummeting rapidly enough to kill energy companies. Then there will be a slow decrease in oil/gas prices until the next economic boom or REAL supply crisis moves the needle one way or another again.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 12:35:09 AM
I think it's also transport, storage, distribution, and increased regulation. Cheap fuel and energy lowers all those costs except for regulation. Regulation is a double-edged sword... Some of the regulations are dumb but others keep us from pretty much all getting sick every week eating food grown all over the planet.
We are massively over-regulated in the wrong areas. The only way you guarantee you won't get sick from food is to not eat.
Quote
The other day I ate an orange grown over 1500 miles away. It cost me 50 cents. Seems cheap to me, all things considered.
It used to cost about a quarter.
Feeding family of four for example... My food costs have exploded from about $150 a month to that much every time we go to the store--four or five times a month. That $0.50 is exponentially applied to everything. Now it's not so cheap. In Nigeria I could buy an entire bunch of bananas for about a buck, just like we used to do here.
Quote
Also, consider that a great deal of food is somewhat price controlled in order to keep farmers from going out of business. Yields are high enough in the US that if the farmers aren't subsidized either directly or by jacking up prices above a market supply/demand equilibrium level, we won't have very many farmers anymore. Seems like a small price to pay, and I'd rather give my $$$ to the people who grow my food than pay more taxes and let the govt ensure our food supply.
It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more complicated than that. Everything from multi-nationals, to fuel regulations, to NAFTA, to Mexico stealing water in violation of Treaty agreements factors in.
Quote
Also related... It's important to remember that gas/oil prices rise for three reasons. First is not enough actual supply. Second is artificial supply controls intended to maximize profit and level out seasonal production. Third is demand. Right now, gas and oil prices (ie. "energy" prices) are high due to demand. That's a good thing because it means the economy is booming. There will be a new equilibrium level where energy supplies start to hamper overall industrial and economic activity (not growth, but activity) and at that point we'll see some artificial supply constraints to prevent oil prices from plummeting rapidly enough to kill energy companies. Then there will be a slow decrease in oil/gas prices until the next economic boom or REAL supply crisis moves the needle one way or another again.
No, fuel prices spiked in PART due to demand back in 2008ish, going from $1 a gallon to $4 a gallon. When demand crashed fuel prices never went back to $1. We became conditioned to think that $2.50 is cheap and the industry never looked back.
Regulations impose HUGE costs on energy production. It's a shell game and ultimately intended to take away freedom by those who think they know best.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: zack1234 on July 25, 2018, 02:50:39 AM
If the Saudis are looking at investing in other markets highlights oil will not be the cash cow it was.
The main flash point in the Middle East will be access to fresh water :banana:
The nasty Russians will be supplying Europe with its carbon based fuel, and the US will be forcing the greedy Germans to pay properly into NATO to defend themselves from the said nasty Russians.
Germany has signed a billion gas deal with Russia :rofl
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: BOBO on July 25, 2018, 04:50:46 AM
If the Saudis are looking at investing in other markets highlights oil will not be the cash cow it was.
The main flash point in the Middle East will be access to fresh water :banana:
The nasty Russians will be supplying Europe with its carbon based fuel, and the US will be forcing the greedy Germans to pay properly into NATO to defend themselves from the said nasty Russians.
Germany has signed a billion gas deal with Russia :rofl
I think that the simple fact that the Saudis have never bothered to even attempt to add any value to the only raw material they've ever exported disqualifies oil from being a "cash cow" for them. I think "spare change calf" is a more descriptive term.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: nrshida on July 25, 2018, 05:05:26 AM
With sufficiently advanced science applied to the problem, the carrying capacity becomes effectively space-constrained.
Just one small observation that most animal populations are upper-limitted to the food supply. With Homo Sapiens it is abstracted by one layer to energy supply because they are inherently tool-users. The population expansion is directly related to the use of first coal and now oil. Both of those were deposited over VERY long periods and modern humans use them up at a very rapid rate. That's why sustainable energy will find the balance for modern humans. Right now it's probably a bit artificially high.
Note to self: count how many AH forum users are triggered by the word sustainable :rofl
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 05:43:27 AM
Just one small observation that most animal populations are upper-limitted to the food supply. With Homo Sapiens it is abstracted by one layer to energy supply because they are inherently tool-users. The population expansion is directly related to the use of first coal and now oil. Both of those were deposited over VERY long periods and modern humans use them up at a very rapid rate. That's why sustainable energy will find the balance for modern humans. Right now it's probably a bit artificially high.
Note to self: count how many AH forum users are triggered by the word sustainable :rofl
Sustainable is mythology. The only thing that is sustainable is Nuclear (and possibly hydro). Hopefully we will learn how to recycle it. Solar and wind are basically gimmicks to buy off donors.
The earth is actually producing oil at a rate faster than we use it--and we've barely found even a fraction of what exists now. The sun will explode before we run out.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: nrshida on July 25, 2018, 06:16:35 AM
Well I shan't try to convince you otherwise merely suggest those ideas are not widely accepted outside of your specific culture & motivation for holding those beliefs. Probably best just to agree to disagree on this point :salute
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 25, 2018, 10:19:45 AM
Ask California how they are liking their "sustainable" solar and wind that melts and breaks in the high heat. Millions told to turn off everything in their houses lmao. Solar and wind also take up large acreage of land. Thus "hurting" the environment. They also cost a lot to repair.
We couldn't have energy that cost almost nothing. We could have quick airiel transportation that could take people 100 miles in minutes. We have billions of uninhabitatable acres that have yet to be lived on because of transportation.
They have slowed down the spread of society by using larger cities to force state policies that hurt smaller rural areas and forces them into the city to work for wages.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 11:20:18 AM
Well I shan't try to convince you otherwise merely suggest those ideas are not widely accepted outside of your specific culture & motivation for holding those beliefs. Probably best just to agree to disagree on this point :salute
Which is fine by me. More for us.
I prefer being the lead dog not the ones behind it.
It wasn’t “widely accepted” the USA could get to 3% GDP (as we edge toward 5%). “Experts.” LMAO.
As for sustainable energy pipe dreams, if it sounds too good to be true it is.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on July 25, 2018, 11:50:58 AM
Ask California how they are liking their "sustainable" solar and wind that melts and breaks in the high heat. Millions told to turn off everything in their houses lmao. Solar and wind also take up large acreage of land. Thus "hurting" the environment. They also cost a lot to repair.
Texas is doing pretty well with wind generation. West Texas is loaded with wind generators.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 11:54:22 AM
It’s a payment transfer that’s all it is. I have friends in that industry and they say it’s a joke. Heavily subsidized.
Like CARBON offsets...doesnt matter how hard you are on the environment IF you have enough Grease to apply to the skids. Nature has its way of cleaning itself...City Living was the thing to do back in Dark Ages too. Cohabitation for safety...worked fine until sanity became an issue. You can only dump SO MANY bed pans out the window until it seeps into your water system. Not to mention the rats and the fleas they brought with them.....NOPE give me Home on the Range any day.....as long as It has descent Internet :uhoh This game COULD be the death of me after all and just because I get NO EXERCISE :devil
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 25, 2018, 02:52:44 PM
Oil isn't going to run out any time soon.
Nevertheless, eventually, solar will be cheap and plentiful.
Between now than then (and even after then), nuclear could be a great power source if idiots wouldn't keep messing it up.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 02:59:34 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 25, 2018, 03:30:57 PM
Agreed on all points except that solar can never replace petroleum. It's absolutely impossible, even if you covered every inch of the planet with solar panels, there is simply not enough energy to run much of anything.
Yep, you'd need to have a solar array perhaps impractically large -- maybe the size of Nevada or something for the US -- but it isn't the size of the whole country.
Here's my group mate from grad school giving a TED talk on just this topic, explaining how for the UK (which has no deserts), it would be a solar array about 25% the size of the country: https://youtu.be/E0W1ZZYIV8o?t=549
Space-based solar power might be able to add appreciably.
In the far future, there is the Dyson sphere. :aok
But, I think nuclear is a good way to go -- if people could quit making very stupid design, operation, and policy decisions about it. Safety concerns and disposal of fuel are straightforward to deal with. We just have a legacy in the world of crap designs and bad decisions that set things down a bad path that is hard to reverse.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 03:39:32 PM
Yep, you'd need to have a solar array perhaps impractically large -- maybe the size of Nevada or something for the US -- but it isn't the size of the whole country.
Here's my group mate from grad school giving a TED talk on just this topic, explaining how for the UK (which has no deserts), it would be a solar array about 25% the size of the country: https://youtu.be/E0W1ZZYIV8o?t=549
Space-based solar power might be able to add appreciably.
In the far future, there is the Dyson sphere. :aok
But, I think nuclear is a good way to go -- if people could quit making very stupid design, operation, and policy decisions about it. Safety concerns and disposal of fuel are straightforward to deal with. We just have a legacy in the world of crap designs and bad decisions that set things down a bad path that is hard to reverse.
I saw another science guy give a talk on it. Debris free, 0% cloud cover, directed at the sun... You'd maybe get 1% of the energy we need if you covered the whole planet. Something ridiculous like that.
You can basically power a light bulb with these massive things, meanwhile you are frying birds, causing pilots to go blind (literally, these things out in Nevada are HORRIFIC to fly past), etc.
Would love to see a way to recycle nuclear waste though. Man that would be something.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 25, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
Would love to see a way to recycle nuclear waste though. Man that would be something.
There is -- those are breeder reactors. But one downside is that they can (and are) used to make bomb-grade material, so the US isn't so keen on lots of places having them.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: zack1234 on July 25, 2018, 04:11:22 PM
Well I shan't try to convince you otherwise merely suggest those ideas are not widely accepted outside of your specific culture & motivation for holding those beliefs. Probably best just to agree to disagree on this point :salute
How dare you! I demand satisfaction :mad:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 04:24:20 PM
There is -- those are breeder reactors. But one downside is that they can (and are) used to make bomb-grade material, so the US isn't so keen on lots of places having them.
Darn.
Well, we could always just sink the waste in the Marianas Trench and wait for Godzilla to emerge... :D
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 25, 2018, 05:06:43 PM
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 25, 2018, 06:29:38 PM
Steam engines, with fuel being the pineal glands of pandas.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on July 25, 2018, 07:59:08 PM
Water, the Ozone, and the electromagnetic field will be the trinity of Earth's maintaining life factors. The first two can be destroyed by the carbon based lifeform known as "Upright Ape". The last is susceptible to natural and astronomical phenomena beyond our control.
Lose one of those three and the ballgame is over.
Keep the human civilization in an environment friendly attitude as a whole, Earth should have no problem maintaining a growing population.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 25, 2018, 09:01:08 PM
Destroying the ozone. Another hoax. Gotta’ do something about CFCs and then whatever comes after that...and after that.....and.... Never be without a “crisis” that must be “solved” by the Utopianist elite.
The only way we can destroy the planet is to nuke it—and it will heal from that, too.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on July 26, 2018, 12:12:45 AM
Destroying the ozone. Another hoax. Gotta’ do something about CFCs and then whatever comes after that...and after that.....and.... Never be without a “crisis” that must be “solved” by the Utopianist elite.
The only way we can destroy the planet is to nuke it—and it will heal from that, too.
Yeah what he said....Environmentalism killed the 80's and 90's....I miss BIG HAIR! :furious Wait,thats not exactly true...I MISS HAIR :bhead Its NOT a bald head AT ALL...What it is,is a solar panel for brain power :D What were we discussing again..it got cloudy all the sudden...DAMN CHEM TRAILS :rofl
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: bozon on July 26, 2018, 03:33:50 AM
If the Saudis are looking at investing in other markets highlights oil will not be the cash cow it was.
The main flash point in the Middle East will be access to fresh water :banana:
The nasty Russians will be supplying Europe with its carbon based fuel, and the US will be forcing the greedy Germans to pay properly into NATO to defend themselves from the said nasty Russians.
Germany has signed a billion gas deal with Russia :rofl
You know what happens when Germany has its own powerful army.. Belgium be ware!
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on July 26, 2018, 06:37:47 AM
I saw another science guy give a talk on it. Debris free, 0% cloud cover, directed at the sun... You'd maybe get 1% of the energy we need if you covered the whole planet. Something ridiculous like that.
You can basically power a light bulb with these massive things, meanwhile you are frying birds, causing pilots to go blind (literally, these things out in Nevada are HORRIFIC to fly past), etc.
Would love to see a way to recycle nuclear waste though. Man that would be something.
There is a solar power plant in the Mojave generating 354MW of electricity per day. Must be one heckuva light bulb.
Forget fission reactors. Fusion reactors will be the best alternative.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 07:19:28 AM
Largest solar power plant generates 850 MW/year. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/SolarGIS-Solar-map-World-map-en.png)
To produce all the electricity (globally) with solar power alone you need an area about the size of Spain.
And as I said: triboelectric generators. They can produce energy from low frequency oscillations like wind or waves much more efficient so even a regular flag can produce electricity. Having powerplants in the oceans could be a solution. An area of 400 x 400 km can produce electricity for the entire world. http://www.lauriewinkless.com/sea-snake-triboelectric-generator-could-harvest-ocean-wave-energy/
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: TWCAxew on July 26, 2018, 07:29:33 AM
Destroying the ozone. Another hoax. Gotta’ do something about CFCs and then whatever comes after that...and after that.....and.... Never be without a “crisis” that must be “solved” by the Utopianist elite.
The only way we can destroy the planet is to nuke it—and it will heal from that, too.
Oh really? So I take it that you don't believe in rising sea levels aswell and are a hoax to? https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/world/asia/facing-rising-seas-bangladesh-confronts-the-consequences-of-climate-change.html
Or that you don't believe in the giant plastic islands we have created in our oceans. Or micro plastics that are everywhere in our foods. https://www.google.nl/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/15/microplastics-found-in-more-than-90-of-bottled-water-study-says
Lets not forget the massive deforestation that is going on in Brazil. http://environmentalscience.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199389414.001.0001/acrefore-9780199389414-e-102
And yes, all of the crisises are man made. So yes we keep cleaning up our own messes.
But hey we will be fine, it's all a hoax.
DutchVII
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 07:35:39 AM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: TWCAxew on July 26, 2018, 08:14:15 AM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 08:32:56 AM
Lets not walk to far down that road but yes - it does.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DubiousKB on July 26, 2018, 10:24:34 AM
me thinks the carrying capacity of this post has been reached.. :noid
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:05:29 AM
There is a solar power plant in the Mojave generating 354MW of electricity per day. Must be one heckuva light bulb.
Forget fission reactors. Fusion reactors will be the best alternative.
I’d like to see the specs on that. You're not delivering anywhere NEAR all of that to the end user for a variety of reasons and it is only even generating power of any kind (never mind peak) for a fraction of the year.
These things last ten years with a break even point of twenty. It’s a scam.
If we think solar is the solution we are dreaming. It may be helpful here and there but only as a minor augmentation not a replacement.
I’m all for anything that works, so let’s keep developing the technology and see, but we are a long way from Star Trek...
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:11:02 AM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:21:50 AM
Largest solar power plant generates 850 MW/year. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/SolarGIS-Solar-map-World-map-en.png)
To produce all the electricity (globally) with solar power alone you need an area about the size of Spain.
And as I said: triboelectric generators. They can produce energy from low frequency oscillations like wind or waves much more efficient so even a regular flag can produce electricity. Having powerplants in the oceans could be a solution. An area of 400 x 400 km can produce electricity for the entire world. http://www.lauriewinkless.com/sea-snake-triboelectric-generator-could-harvest-ocean-wave-energy/
No way. Not even with 24 hours of sun and clear skies.
We have Nuke plants that generate more in one hour than a solar plant can generate in a week and we still suffer brownouts and such.
Technology will improve solar but it will never approach that power capacity.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: TWCAxew on July 26, 2018, 11:27:01 AM
The earth gets hotter. The earth gets colder. It’s a cycle. Where were the SUVs that melted the glaciers we had in North America? And where did they grow from when they had receded past Greenland?
I’ve studied this stuff for four decades. It’s mass hysteria driven by unethical research funded for political purposes. They’ve been caught in their own lies numerous times on this stuff yet the drumbeat continues. People can be sheep if they want. Not me. Science is not agenda-based consensus.
The planet is fine, and we can’t do anything about it any way.
Okay well, let's say your right. What would be the issue in putting recourses in fighting these causes even if it does not help. Would we really be worse off?
Now let's say i am right and we do nothing? We would be screwed. We basically already are because not enough is happening right now in these crucial years the reverse climate change or saving animal habitats duo to dying corral reaves, dessartation in North China or deforestation.
In my country (which is below sea level) there are poles everywhere in the water where you can measure the water levels yourself. Trust me water levels are higher now.
(I am not denying the cycle btw, I am saying it's sped up tremendously)
DutchVII
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:36:55 AM
Okay well, let's say your right. What would be the issue in putting recourses in fighting these causes even if it does not help. Would we really be worse off?
Now let's say i am right and we do nothing? We would be screwed. We basically already are because not enough is happening right now in these crucial years the reverse climate change or saving animal habitats duo to dying corral reaves, dessartation in North China or deforestation.
In my country (which is below sea level) there are poles everywhere in the water where you can measure the water levels yourself. Trust me water levels are higher now.
(I am not denying the cycle btw, I am saying it's sped up tremendously)
DutchVII
If fighting the “cause” hurts the lifestyle of the populace for no benefit then it shouldn’t be done.
I’m all for saving habitat, increasing efficiency, reducing waste, etc. As I said, I’m an ecologist and a conservationist, not an environmentalist.
The best way to achieve these goals is to INCREASE global standard of living, not reduce it. Education is important. When I was a kid people thought nothing of throwing trash out the window while driving. Now almost nobody does it because an information campaign put the thought in the public’s mind that clean beats littered.
I’ve studied this stuff my whole life and at the end of the day we are not going to make things better by turning into a bunch of Chicken Littles.
The cycle is measured in centuries (millennia) not years. You don’t have the data to know which way it’s going yet, never mind the speed of reversal.
Water levels are higher now compared to what? When your country was underwater? It happened before it will happen again. Move.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 11:39:29 AM
Okay well, let's say your right. What would be the issue in putting recourses in fighting these causes even if it does not help. Would we really be worse off?
Now let's say i am right and we do nothing? We would be screwed. We basically already are because not enough is happening right now in these crucial years the reverse climate change or saving animal habitats duo to dying corral reaves, dessartation in North China or deforestation.
In my country (which is below sea level) there are poles everywhere in the water where you can measure the water levels yourself. Trust me water levels are higher now.
(I am not denying the cycle btw, I am saying it's sped up tremendously)
DutchVII
Its the same thing as with flat earthers, no amount of evidence will change his mind. No point of wasting the time.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:41:18 AM
Its the same thing as with flat earthers, no amount of evidence will change his mind. No point of wasting the time.
That’s quite condescending. The skepticism of a Flat Earther sure beats the cliff jumping acceptance of a lemming any day, I will say that.
Your own research was FAKED to “prove” your point. Your side was busted in a lie multiple times, faking research, manipulating data, and “forcing” the models to arrive at a pre-conceived conclusion. That’s not science, that’s an agenda.
How much time did you spend in the study of ecology? Wildlife management? Habitat restoration? Zero I’m sure.
I think in terms of eons not years. The planet has been around a looooong time and our tiny little snapshot of an instant in time where we had a hot summer five or ten years ago doesn’t mean the planet is burning up. It’s not.
The planet is fine. It’s certainly not Canada and the USA that are the problem. It’s India, China, Pakistan, Nigeria, etc. where improvement and efficiency are needed.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 11:46:30 AM
That’s quite condescending. The skepticism of a Flat Earther sure beats the cliff jumping acceptance of a lemming any day, I will say that.
Your own research was FAKED to “prove” your point.
I think in terms of eons not years. The planet has been around a looooong time and our tiny little snapshot of an instant in time where we had a hot summer ten years ago doesn’t mean the planet is burning up.
When you are arguing against objective fact like the rising sea levels, then you are a lost cause. I dont want global warming to be real either, it would be a lot easier if it wasnt. But unfortunately the evidence suggests otherwise and then the logical thing to do is to accept the reality and start working to avoid the worst case scenarios.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 11:49:09 AM
If you can present objective scientific evidence that proves that all the climate scientists are wrong then i might change my mind. But when you are up against NASA, ESA and a ton of other organizations then you are losing the fight.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:49:45 AM
When you are arguing against objective fact like the rising sea levels, then you are a lost cause. I dont want global warming to be real either, it would be a lot easier if it wasnt. But unfortunately the evidence suggests otherwise and then the logical thing to do is to accept the reality and start working to avoid the worst case scenarios.
Sea levels rise and fall. That’s a normal part of the way the earth works.
“Evidence” that is faked and/or shown completely out of proportion to what it should mean.
Global warming happened before and will happen again, just like global cooling. Man has no control over it.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 11:51:31 AM
Start argue with them then: https://climate.nasa.gov/
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 11:51:34 AM
If you can present objective scientific evidence that proves that all the climate scientists are wrong then i might change my mind. But when you are up against NASA, ESA and a ton of other organizations then you are losing the fight.
Organizations that were caught FAKING DATA.
You obviously missed that little scandal.
There is no global warming. We are actually entering a cooling cycle due to reduced solar activity.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 11:53:16 AM
And it wasn’t just them. NASA did it numerous times, including 2005 to say it was the hottest year ever. A lie.
Dozens of these scandals have been exposed over the years. Too many to list. The CRU email hack being the most high profile. Mann’s Hockey Stick Lie is a big one, too, due to its public profile.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 11:58:49 AM
Science is not a consensus nor is it settled. It is a continual process of evaluation and re-evaluation to find where the facts lead, not to lead the facts.
The planet has been WAY hotter than it is now—and way colder. It will happen again, with or without humans.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 12:14:44 PM
The planet has been WAY hotter than it is now—and way colder. It will happen again, with or without humans.
No one have said otherwise and yes while its true that not helping. The world inst going to end. But there will still be a ton of negative consequences.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 12:23:52 PM
No one have said otherwise and yes while its true that not helping. The world inst going to end. But there will still be a ton of negative consequences.
Our impact is ultimately minimal. We should always strive for low impact when possible, but leave the government out of it. They cannot be trusted, and they've proven it over and over again.
I used to be a global warming true believer. I grew up.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 100Coogn on July 26, 2018, 12:32:41 PM
No one have said otherwise and yes while its true that not helping. The world inst going to end. But there will still be a ton of negative consequences.
Actually the world will end one day. (a simple Google search will explain it.)
Coogan
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 12:38:00 PM
That the sun runs out of fuel in a few billion years and expands enough to swallow the earth?
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 12:50:43 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 12:55:10 PM
Even colliding with another galaxy (which will happen) isnt much of a risk, there is still a lot of space in the space so its unlikely that we are affected. An asteroid from the Oort cloud is far more likely. But it will not end the Earth itself so I guess it doesnt count..
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 100Coogn on July 26, 2018, 12:59:01 PM
Even colliding with another galaxy (which will happen) isnt much of a risk, there is still a lot of space in the space so its unlikely that we are affected. An asteroid from the Oort cloud is far more likely. But it will not end the Earth itself so I guess it doesnt count..
If we get pulled into another galaxy all bets are off.
Would the planet be detroyed? Well, technically, no, since matter is neither created nor destroyed. But it will most certainly be in no recognizable form.
Asteroids have hit before and wouldn't have the impact (pun) of a galactic head-on.
The point is, the planet will be gone someday, and it will have nothing to do with humans.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 01:20:13 PM
If we get pulled into another galaxy all bets are off.
Would the planet be detroyed? Well, technically, no, since matter is neither created nor destroyed. But it will most certainly be in no recognizable form.
Asteroids have hit before and wouldn't have the impact (pun) of a galactic head-on.
The point is, the planet will be gone someday, and it will have nothing to do with humans.
Yes. and its completely irrelevant in this debate.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: zack1234 on July 26, 2018, 01:21:28 PM
Will Uranus affect the Earth?
After a curry :old:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 01:22:02 PM
I’d like to see the specs on that. You're not delivering anywhere NEAR all of that to the end user for a variety of reasons and it is only even generating power of any kind (never mind peak) for a fraction of the year.
These things last ten years with a break even point of twenty. It’s a scam.
If we think solar is the solution we are dreaming. It may be helpful here and there but only as a minor augmentation not a replacement.
I’m all for anything that works, so let’s keep developing the technology and see, but we are a long way from Star Trek...
I am thinking you are confusing solar plants with solar panels. Solar plants use steam driven generators. The plant in the Mojave is a working plant powering a small town nearby. I drove through there a couple of years ago.
They use a battery backup to store excess electricity when they need it. The residual heat in the heat exchanger can convert water to steam for several hours after Sun set.
You want to turn a blind eye to it, fine, but openly dismissing a working plant is not going to convince anyone you are right.
I never said solar was a solution. I was commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement how solar plants could not generate enough electricity to power a light bulb.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 03:44:41 PM
I am thinking you are confusing solar plants with solar panels. Solar plants use steam driven generators. The plant in the Mojave is a working plant powering a small town nearby. I drove through there a couple of years ago.
They use a battery backup to store excess electricity when they need it. The residual heat in the heat exchanger can convert water to steam for several hours after Sun set.
You want to turn a blind eye to it, fine, but openly dismissing a working plant is not going to convince anyone you are right.
I never said solar was a solution. I was commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement how solar plants could not generate enough electricity to power a light bulb.
It was hyperbole, first of all. (I'm also really uninterested in convincing anyone. That's not my job and I've long gotten over the futility of even trying. Besides, I'm still trying to figure out fact from fiction myself, and that's a process, not a destination requiring a skeptical eye toward EVERYTHING. I'll lead them to the water and they may drink it if they wish or tell me they think it's poisoned. That's up to them.)
"PV [photo-voltaic] solar panels convert solar energy to electrical energy at an efficiency factor of about 15%. Thus, our panel [one square meter in size], at the equator, year-round, should deliver 25.5 watts of electrical energy – one very dim light bulb."
Secondly, I highly doubt this plant powers an entire town but let's say it does... What's the cost? This is not a market-driven solution. This is a highly subsidized endeavor where you are spending $500 to save $40.
You made precisely my point, btw, on batteries. We have nowhere near the battery technology to make this stuff even remotely efficient. Pie in the sky dreams of solar power replacing oil are just that. Dreams. It's not a global solution for energy, and I seriously doubt it ever will be. Regionally, of limited use or to augment the grid? Sure. If they can ever figure out how to tie it in efficiently. We are a long way from that.
I think solar has its place, but it's not the panacea we're being promised. I say let's use everything but only as technology permits. I'm not going to put solar panels on my house when the break-even is 18 years under perfect conditions. It's stupid to do that. Let the technology improve then we'll talk.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on July 26, 2018, 04:26:30 PM
I am thinking you are confusing solar plants with solar panels. Solar plants use steam driven generators. The plant in the Mojave is a working plant powering a small town nearby. I drove through there a couple of years ago.
They use a battery backup to store excess electricity when they need it. The residual heat in the heat exchanger can convert water to steam for several hours after Sun set.
You want to turn a blind eye to it, fine, but openly dismissing a working plant is not going to convince anyone you are right.
I never said solar was a solution. I was commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement how solar plants could not generate enough electricity to power a light bulb.
In the end we can never just dismiss anything without thorough testing. Through testing we can find paths for improvement in generation. It may never drill down to one source for power. It will most likely always be multiple sources that will work the best.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Vraciu on July 26, 2018, 06:06:30 PM
In the end we can never just dismiss anything without thorough testing. Through testing we can find paths for improvement in generation. It may never drill down to one source for power. It will most likely always be multiple sources that will work the best.
Well said.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 26, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
When I was in high school, I was antinuclear (to be precise, anti nuclear fission).
In college, I decided (as an idealistic youngster) to go into plasma physics and fusion-reactor engineering. That meant going into nuclear engineering. Even though I was majoring in fusion, I did have to take courses in fission as well. By the time I finished by BSE in nuclear engineering with a major in fusion, I had nearly the opposite opinion from when I stared. I now felt that fusion had waste problems, too, and more importantly wasn't likely to be a power source for a very, very long time; and I felt that good fission designs could be a great power source.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 26, 2018, 10:55:42 PM
Newer generations of Nuclear, for ex with led cooling could be a way forward. Thorium reactors is another. Led cooling can give you the ability to use the waste of todays plants as fuel so you get the fuel for free. Thorium is much more abdundant than Uranium and the waste is a lot less radiant than with the Uranium-Plutonium cycle.
The problem with nuclear plants is that its hard to convince anyone to have them as neighbour and when things go bad it goes really bad.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 26, 2018, 11:05:07 PM
Why not magnetic motors? They could spin for years. No crazy tech needed. Easier to repair. No waste. No runoff. Safe. Doesn't ruin the scenery. Perpetual motion. That's the way.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on July 26, 2018, 11:44:22 PM
Why not magnetic motors? They could spin for years. No crazy tech needed. Easier to repair. No waste. No runoff. Safe. Doesn't ruin the scenery. Perpetual motion. That's the way.
Then you need something to power them with..
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on July 27, 2018, 03:42:44 AM
The OP was about the population of life being sustained by Earth. Is electricity that valuable to plant and animal life? That seems where this conversation is been driven to.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on July 27, 2018, 06:44:32 AM
<snip> "PV [photo-voltaic] solar panels convert solar energy to electrical energy at an efficiency factor of about 15%. Thus, our panel [one square meter in size], at the equator, year-round, should deliver 25.5 watts of electrical energy – one very dim light bulb."
Secondly, I highly doubt this plant powers an entire town but let's say it does... What's the cost? This is not a market-driven solution. This is a highly subsidized endeavor where you are spending $500 to save $40.
You made precisely my point, btw, on batteries. We have nowhere near the battery technology to make this stuff even remotely efficient. Pie in the sky dreams of solar power replacing oil are just that. Dreams. It's not a global solution for energy, and I seriously doubt it ever will be. Regionally, of limited use or to augment the grid? Sure. If they can ever figure out how to tie it in efficiently. We are a long way from that. <snip>
And again, you are talking about solar PANELS. The solar power plants DO NOT use panels. Solar panels are a very inefficient way to generate electricity, but they are low maintenance. Solar plants, focus the energy of the Sun to a heat exchanger (usually containing molten salt) which then turns water to steam to power the generators. There are examples of this all over the world being used everyday.
We drove through that town and stopped and had lunch. Many of the people there work at the plant and are very happy to talk about the project. The kw/h costs is on par with what we pay in Texas for power. If you fly over that plant, you cannot miss the town. They are both out in the middle of nowhere.
The big problems with plants like this is they require a lot of Sun and heat. They are very poor generators in cold climates as they bleed off the heat stored too quickly. They work best in desert applications. The primary maintenance item is the heat exchanger.
As far as batteries go. There is a battery energy storage plant outside Los Angeles which can power 15,000 homes for about 4 hours.
There is also Tesla's Powerwall (https://www.tesla.com/powerwall) which is for individual homes.
Stop thinking in terms of a central power generation system and think local, block level power generation. A lot of things become viable then.
And again, I am not saying any of this is the best solution. I think fusion is the best we will be able to get and should be focusing in that.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 27, 2018, 07:58:41 AM
There are plenty of solar power plants using panels. The largest is at 850 MW. And the solar star plants in California produces around 1600 GWh annualy.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on July 27, 2018, 08:58:33 AM
I was heavily into nuclear fission for awhile. I never caught one and lost a lot of hooks.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on July 27, 2018, 10:45:06 AM
There are plenty of solar power plants using panels. The largest is at 850 MW. And the solar star plants in California produces around 1600 GWh annualy.
I was aware of any solar power plants using panels, other than for augmentation. I'll do some reading. Thanks Zimmie.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 27, 2018, 10:59:19 AM
Photovoltaic solar plants require a lot of land to produce eny larger amount of electricity, but the most ideal land is a desert so it wont compete with anything else about the land since deserts are pretty much useless otherwise. And once the panels are installed the power plant is more or less maintenance free and has very low running costs. The drawbacks is of course that they only produce electricity in daylight so another source of electricity is still needed. But most of our electricity is consumed during the day so solar can still covers most of our needs with for ex hydro or nuclear as compliment.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 27, 2018, 02:02:02 PM
??? The magnetic parts are what powers them. The fan gets pushed by the magnets. The only thing you need is something to start them, which doesn't need much but the installer to get it going. Once it gets going. It will run forever, or until it needs maintenance.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 27, 2018, 02:12:10 PM
I wish it was that simple.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 27, 2018, 09:11:27 PM
Could you not place a lock on the spinner after you set it in place? Once you install it, "pull the pin", and off it goes.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on July 28, 2018, 04:39:37 PM
I can confirm that there are a few solar panel power plants. However, I don't know if the energy to build them is ever recaptured during the lifetime of the plant. It wasn't with the efficiencies I saw. Believe it or not, the same goes for wind turbines. Takes more energy to make them (at least it did) than they ever recapture.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on July 29, 2018, 06:09:32 AM
The cost of making and maintaining wind turbines pretty much insures they are not going to be competitive with other forms of electrical generation.
I know the ones in West Texas had about 1/3 opf them shut down. They say it is cheaper to install a new one than to fix the broken ones. I doubt that it true, but there are a lot of dead ones out there.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 29, 2018, 02:02:30 PM
Plus they ruin the scenery. I saw a bunch in California on my way to Indian Wells and wasn't impressed.
I feel like giant turbines sucking the air down through tunnels using a magnetic motor turbine would be a lot a cheaper and more efficient.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Ramesis on July 29, 2018, 04:52:05 PM
I realize I have not studied Physics since college... but at that time, perpetual motion was not achievable... in terms of magnetism... even cryogenic magnets don't maintain their magnetic field for forever :furious Liquid helium boils off eventually
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 29, 2018, 05:25:12 PM
Magnets are not a source of energy.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: pembquist on July 29, 2018, 05:45:22 PM
Of course not. Everybody knows they are a cure for arthritis!
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Meatwad on July 29, 2018, 09:31:16 PM
Magnets make bending robots sing folk music :old:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on July 30, 2018, 04:03:35 AM
A brief check reveals that a wind turbine needs 6-9 months to produce the energy needed to build it. A 4MW pland producing electricity for 5 hours a day in 5 years will deliver around 36 GWh . That is enough to build a lot of wind turbines.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on July 30, 2018, 04:55:01 AM
A brief check reveals that a wind turbine needs 6-9 months to produce the energy needed to build it. A 4MW pland producing electricity for 5 hours a day in 5 years will deliver around 36 GWh . That is enough to build a lot of wind turbines.
Ok, it looks like the wind turbine energy debt was a widely spread myth. It terms of equivalence, it takes 450 tons of coal to produce a 2 megawatt wind turbine.
Solar panels have now reached the break even mark on energy debt. https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-04/solar-panels-now-make-more-electricity-they-use
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 30, 2018, 03:55:50 PM
Magnetism can be used to generate power. Here's a very small concept design that shows how it works. https://youtu.be/jiAhiu6UqXQ No harmful waste, no pollutants, no crazy tech. The biggest problem is that energy companies will burn down your Warehouse if they catch you trying to sell it, or any other perpetual motor energy that you cant be billed monthly for. It's happened.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 30, 2018, 04:54:18 PM
Magnetism can be used to generate power. Here's a very small concept design that shows how it works. https://youtu.be/jiAhiu6UqXQ No harmful waste, no pollutants, no crazy tech. The biggest problem is that energy companies will burn down your Warehouse if they catch you trying to sell it, or any other perpetual motor energy that you cant be billed monthly for. It's happened.
I suspect that is hokum. People from time to time come up with perpetual-motion machines. Our current understanding of physics (often mainly conservation of energy and 2nd law of thermodynamics) suggests that there can be no perpetual-motion machines. In history, as far as I know, every time a perpetual-motion machine is tested, it is found not to be so.
In the case of that video, the guy spins up the fan and then uses it as a flywheel to power a light bulb. When you spin up something, you are taking energy from one source (in this case a battery or power supply) and putting it into another form (in this case rotational kinetic energy). You can then draw from that rotational energy to power something else (in this case, a light bulb). But you do draw from it, and eventually you run out of the stored rotational energy. Flywheels store energy but do not create it -- you use something else to charge them up.
I would expect that, after the fan is spun up, the initial power is removed, and the setup is powering the light bulb, the fan would stop spinning after a little while. This happens once the initial rotational energy is all used up and turned into light and heat.
Magnets are not a source of energy. They are like ball bearings or springs, depending on how you use them. When they are used like ball bearings, they reduce friction (which otherwise uses up energy in creating unwanted heat). When they are used like springs, they can store up energy, but that's energy that you put in from some other source -- they don't generate the energy on their own.
In the guy's experiment, if you measured the power used up from the power source to spin up the fan and measured the power consumed by the light bulb, you would likely find that the light bulb gets less power than the amount used up from the initial power source -- in other words that the fan/flywheel in the middle just ended up wasting some of the energy (because it has some friction in its bearings, some inefficiency in its electric motor, some energy used up in moving air). He would have a more-efficient system just running the light bulb from the power source directly.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 30, 2018, 06:26:22 PM
I suspect that is hokum. People from time to time come up with perpetual-motion machines. Our current understanding of physics (often mainly conservation of energy and 2nd law of thermodynamics) suggests that there can be no perpetual-motion machines. In history, as far as I know, every time a perpetual-motion machine is tested, it is found not to be so.
In the case of that video, the guy spins up the fan and then uses it as a flywheel to power a light bulb. When you spin up something, you are taking energy from one source (in this case a battery or power supply) and putting it into another form (in this case rotational kinetic energy). You can then draw from that rotational energy to power something else (in this case, a light bulb). But you do draw from it, and eventually you run out of the stored rotational energy. Flywheels store energy but do not create it -- you use something else to charge them up.
I would expect that, after the fan is spun up, the initial power is removed, and the setup is powering the light bulb, the fan would stop spinning after a little while. This happens once the initial rotational energy is all used up and turned into light and heat.
Magnets are not a source of energy. They are like ball bearings or springs, depending on how you use them. When they are used like ball bearings, they reduce friction (which otherwise uses up energy in creating unwanted heat). When they are used like springs, they can store up energy, but that's energy that you put in from some other source -- they don't generate the energy on their own.
In the guy's experiment, if you measured the power used up from the power source to spin up the fan and measured the power consumed by the light bulb, you would likely find that the light bulb gets less power than the amount used up from the initial power source -- in other words that the fan/flywheel in the middle just ended up wasting some of the energy (because it has some friction in its bearings, some inefficiency in its electric motor, some energy used up in moving air). He would have a more-efficient system just running the light bulb from the power source directly.
How could he run the light bulb from a power source directly if there's isn't one, that's why he has the fan? I get what you are saying about the energy used to power the fan, which powers the light, and agree that it does take more power to power the fan than the light, but that power is caused by the magnets repelling from each other, thus turning the fan. Something has to power it. This is much better than the battery because it doesn't corrode and doesn't have to be built with as much technology, which uses more energy. There is no energy source that doesn't ware down and have to be maintained for effeciency and effectiveness.
Have you heard of the Torus energy rotation?
Watch this video from 36:00 to 40:00. You will see what I am talking about with regards to people getting shut down for finding better sources of energy than what we have today. https://youtu.be/lEV5AFFcZ-s
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 30, 2018, 06:34:55 PM
How could he run the light bulb from a power source directly if there's isn't one, that's why he has the fan?
At the start, he powers up the fan to get it spinning. Then he disconnects the power source he uses to get the fan spinning and hooks the leads to the bulb.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 30, 2018, 06:49:38 PM
Watch this video from 36:00 to 40:00. You will see what I am talking about with regards to people getting shut down for finding better sources of energy than what we have today. https://youtu.be/lEV5AFFcZ-s
That's a guy on a video saying "Here is what happened". People say false stuff all the time, and the world has lots of crackpots and charlatans. I looked around a little and couldn't find any backup for what the guy said. The world also has secrets and stuff that is hushed up all the time, too -- but for me, it boils down to evidence along with how it fits with what I think I know, how I think the world works, and what sounds plausible to me.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 30, 2018, 07:11:04 PM
That's a guy on a video saying "Here is what happened". People say false stuff all the time, and the world has lots of crackpots and charlatans. I looked around a little and couldn't find any backup for what the guy said. The world also has secrets and stuff that is hushed up all the time, too -- but for me, it boils down to evidence along with how it fits with what I think I know, how I think the world works, and what sounds plausible to me.
You couldn't find any research on any of the men shown in that video? Must be some Google algos messing with you. Hell, even looking for correct history on Oregon slavery is pretty difficult these days on Google. I tried recently.
At the start, he powers up the fan to get it spinning. Then he disconnects the power source he uses to get the fan spinning and hooks the leads to the bulb.
Are you sure we are watching the same video? The reason the fan was spinning the first time was because of his hand. Then he showed the battery, then he showed how the big magnet repells the fans magnets and causes it to spin. This spins the fan and then provides the current through the wires that gets the light to power up.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 30, 2018, 08:28:07 PM
You couldn't find any research on any of the men shown in that video? Must be some Google algos messing with you.
Nah, Google wouldn't do that to me! The co-founder of Google and I went to the same school! ;)
You can't find stuff that isn't there (such as if one guy is making it all up) or if large powers manage to hide the information. I don't think folks can successfully hide everything. What I see is they can discredit stuff, scoff at it, put out contradictory information, etc. -- but making it all disappear seems less likely to me.
Here's about all I found on Trombly: https://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/who-is-adam-trombly/
Quote
Are you sure we are watching the same video?
Here's what happens when you try doing it the way the guy purports he is doing it (which is a scam):
https://youtu.be/QBFHn5bLy7Q
Here's how the scam works:
https://youtu.be/M6QV0AfDF2k
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 30, 2018, 10:25:56 PM
Alright. So maybe the spinner vid was a stupid post in the .9 seconds it took to find that.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 30, 2018, 10:33:07 PM
I still believe that we have not produced the best energy source and it's still and always will be transportation that holds society back.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on July 31, 2018, 02:01:42 AM
It seems to me that we puny humans CANNOT affect the earths future... therefore, this debate is moot!
Bacterial once made the world flourish and evolved into intelligent lifeforms, I don't see how we can't destroy it :bolt:
DutchVII
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on July 31, 2018, 03:33:36 PM
Careful with that word "intelligent" Dutch. The implications are far reaching. :)
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on July 31, 2018, 07:08:10 PM
Speaking of bacteria and energy, they are the reason that higher life evolved. Our mitochondria are ancient aerobic bacteria with their own DNA. Billions of years ago a cell engulfed another cell to eat it, but instead of disolving it, a sort of symbosis formed. This is what gave rise to eukaryotic cells (versus more primitive prokaryotic cells).
We only get our mitochondria from our mothers, as that DNA is only passed along with the egg. The rest of our DNA is a mixture of our mother and father's.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: BBQsam on August 01, 2018, 03:23:46 PM
It seems to me that we puny humans CANNOT affect the earths future... therefore, this debate is moot!
Ever here of MAD? Mutual Assured Destruction. We have enough nukes to get the job done. Take millions of years for total recovery.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on August 02, 2018, 04:33:32 AM
We've already unlocked enough mercury from the burning of coal to make eating fish dangerous. The same goes for PCBs, which haven't been dumped into rivers since the 1970s, but continue to stay in the food chain. Only about 1% of the Earth is habitable (when considering the mass). We absolutely can (and have) made a big change. Think of it as a small aquarium stuffed full of fish. It's going to find equillibrium one way or another, but probably not before a massive die-off.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Mister Fork on August 02, 2018, 09:15:04 AM
If having 7 billion of us is destroying the planet and consuming almost all it's natural resources, do you all honestly think we can put another 4-5 billion here? Research from the UK and Canada at the UN showed that a infinitely sustainable population of 2B is about as much as the planet can handle. Even the 1 billion figure was questionable. (here (https://na.unep.net/geas/archive/pdfs/geas_jun_12_carrying_capacity.pdf))
So, 10 billion will be the max, and then the planet will shake us off like a bad cold with climate change, rising water levels, lack of fresh water, disease, and running out of resources will kill us all off. Then after a few hundred million or a billion years, the remaining animals, insects, and bacteria, will reform a new equalized species regime on our planet...just sans humans.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on August 02, 2018, 09:32:36 AM
Aliens must have made the earth heat and cool before humans.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Puma44 on August 02, 2018, 09:56:01 AM
More importantly, what’s the carrying capacity of this thread?
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on August 02, 2018, 10:04:55 AM
Since I am good at solving the world's problems, I will let the rest of you on this handy gem.
Vertical agricultural farming.
Humans have been doing this on high top hillsides and in the cities with rooftop gardens. Take the next logical step with our industrialization methods with regards to vertical structures and infrastructure compatibility.
Take a ten square acre plot of land in the country. Build a 10 story complex in that location. Each level is 50 feet tall and enclosed. Each level is filled with the dirt, topsoil, and water sprinkler and reclamation system. A well placed system of moving mirrors reflects outside light through large windows on all sides.
Food crops will be more sustainable and not subject to drought and flooding like crops fields are in the open. Bad weather like hurricanes, tornados and thunderstorms could damage or destroy the complexes.
If we are running out of square area, then going vertical within said square area will be the best future option. This will require money and resources. More competition will ignite the usual reduction in costs over time. Building millions of these structures will keep the population fed.
Grazing animals can be implemented in this approach also. They will require a very good ventilation system.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on August 02, 2018, 10:16:19 AM
You do not need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics have come a long way. Makes vertical farming much easier. You also do not need Sun light. The UV needed to support plant life can be created with lamps. You need solar panels to supply the electricity. You need a good source of CO2 in the farm and be able to release the O2 buildup.
All these things have been worked out already. The only thing holding it back is the initial cost of building it.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Oldman731 on August 02, 2018, 10:34:45 AM
You do not need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics have come a long way. Makes vertical farming much easier. You also do not need Sun light. The UV needed to support plant life can be created with lamps. You need solar panels to supply the electricity. You need a good source of CO2 in the farm and be able to release the O2 buildup.
All these things have been worked out already. The only thing holding it back is the initial cost of building it.
While true enough, running the indoor grow lamps requires an enormous amount of electricity. I haven't heard anyone - here on the east coast, at least - who thinks that solar panels or windmills will provide enough.
- oldman
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: MiloMorai on August 02, 2018, 10:36:31 AM
Recycling clean water from livestock manure really is possible
While true enough, running the indoor grow lamps requires an enormous amount of electricity. I haven't heard anyone - here on the east coast, at least - who thinks that solar panels or windmills will provide enough.
- oldman
Don't tell these guys that. http://www.solarilluminations.com/solar-led-grow-lights/gl04-solar-grow-light
The target is a moving one. There are breakthroughs in this technology happening all the time. There was a time when we thought LED's could not be used as growth lamps, but that proved wrong too. Panel efficiencies have improved dramatically over the last 10 years as well.
Today, I think it quite possible to solar power a vertical farm. Not cheap to do though.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on August 02, 2018, 12:04:35 PM
You do not need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics have come a long way. Makes vertical farming much easier.
As a Midwest boy growing up, corn fields are everywhere. There was a certain movie during my early elementary days filmed twenty miles south of my prior home of Sioux City, IA back in the early 80s.
There's a good chance of a sequel titled "Children of the Cornfield Skyscraper"?
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Mister Fork on August 02, 2018, 01:23:31 PM
Oh I thought the topic was the destruction of the earth :headscratch:
The OP is about how much fauna and flora can the Earth provide for. Then, the wisdom of the discussing committee here has evolved to electrical and power generation capability plus the usual end times scenarios.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on August 02, 2018, 04:06:52 PM
Even if the food/water problems are sorted out, there will be a limiting factor of radically different ideologies. That equates to violence and wars. In fact, I'm going to say that's a bigger problem than food and water. Take Israel for example. A tiny country placed in the midst of radically different ideologically countries. Of which have attempted (and continue to) to anihilate them on several occassions just due to their beliefs.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on August 02, 2018, 04:08:47 PM
I'll get used to the green wafers...... :devil
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: TWCAxew on August 02, 2018, 04:37:09 PM
You do not need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics have come a long way. Makes vertical farming much easier. You also do not need Sun light. The UV needed to support plant life can be created with lamps. You need solar panels to supply the electricity. You need a good source of CO2 in the farm and be able to release the O2 buildup.
All these things have been worked out already. The only thing holding it back is the initial cost of building it.
This guy is hilarious and does it at home with all sort of plant's!
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on August 02, 2018, 04:54:32 PM
You do not need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics have come a long way. Makes vertical farming much easier. You also do not need Sun light. The UV needed to support plant life can be created with lamps. You need solar panels to supply the electricity. You need a good source of CO2 in the farm and be able to release the O2 buildup.
All these things have been worked out already. The only thing holding it back is the initial cost of building it.
I am perfecting the ability to grow plants in Tequila. This would knock out two birds with one stone.
Can you imagine tomato margaritas, okra margaritas.......... the list is never ending.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on August 02, 2018, 05:33:54 PM
If all the animals die off, there is over 7 billion people on the planet. I won't go hungry. :devil
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on August 02, 2018, 09:20:06 PM
You do not need soil to grow plants. Hydroponics have come a long way. Makes vertical farming much easier. You also do not need Sun light. The UV needed to support plant life can be created with lamps. You need solar panels to supply the electricity. You need a good source of CO2 in the farm and be able to release the O2 buildup.
All these things have been worked out already. The only thing holding it back is the initial cost of building it.
I remember watching the documentary bellow , this company is growing large quantities of green leafy vegetables in warehouses located in New York without soil and less water; same trick vertical farming UV light. Perhaps a method perfected by forbidden plants growers; set ups like this were found quite often in Toronto, one was in my apartment building , hydro company reported suspicious high electricity consumption and popped electric fuses . https://youtu.be/-_tvJtUHnmU
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on August 02, 2018, 09:34:53 PM
Sorry fellas, I hold the Title Deed to the Sol System. The Grand Nagus sol it to me at a 15% discount minus his customary fees. I proclaim myself as High Emperor of the Kuya Kosmos and Defender of the Sacred Dallas Cowboys' Cheerleading Team. They are excellent at giving oomox. :devil
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Meatwad on August 04, 2018, 02:27:36 PM
Pigs eat vegetables and turn them into bacon, so therefore bacon is a vegetable
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on August 04, 2018, 11:04:49 PM
So if vegetables are compost. Than bacon is poo? :uhoh :headscratch:
:huh Thanks for causing me to change my mind about Pigs and Bacon..might explain why I hear folk say "You are full of chit"? Its POO? Bacon tastes great!! So I am all in :cheers:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Skuzzy on August 05, 2018, 07:33:55 AM
I'd rather die from eating too much bacon, than not enough brussel sprouts.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on August 05, 2018, 03:30:44 PM
You can have both!
Brussels sprouts, pan roasted with bacon (and thus bacon grease) and a drizzle of balsamic vinegar is yummy, especially as a side dish for a great steak.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on August 05, 2018, 04:21:42 PM
I'd rather die from eating too much bacon, than not enough brussel sprouts.
:rofl NAILED IT....and SKUZZY...drop the MIC :rock AWE CRAP..he dropped it in THE ONE place it would hurt something.. dropped it on his foot.Had him jumping around and tripped over the power cord again :rofl Sorry had a vision maybe.. :devil
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on August 05, 2018, 04:46:03 PM
Yep, the primordial sin entered this wold through veganism, if Eve would have feed her husband with pork chop not apples, we would be still living eternal in paradise.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Meatwad on August 05, 2018, 07:47:54 PM
Brussels sprouts, pan roasted with bacon (and thus bacon grease) and a drizzle of balsamic vinegar is yummy, especially as a side dish for a great steak.
Little green balls of death :old:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: AKKuya on August 05, 2018, 08:12:15 PM
Years ago, I used to grill pork chops and covered them with BBQ sauce and let the flames get the chops nice and blackened for a crispy edge of tantalizing carnivorous pleasure. I also cheated and bought some microwavable potatoes for a side dish of baked potato. Lastly, I boiled some water in a pot and threw in some frozen mixed veggies (carrots, corn, green beans, and peas).
I eat meat, veggies, fruit, bread, dairy, and pizza to cover all the food groups. :D
Yes, pizza is a separate food group.
Vegan, soy and yogurt, I leave for the rest of humanity. Bacon, grease, and sugar may be the end of me, but I will die with a happy stomach.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: 1stpar3 on August 05, 2018, 10:42:13 PM
Brussels sprouts, pan roasted with bacon (and thus bacon grease) and a drizzle of balsamic vinegar is yummy, especially as a side dish for a great steak.
Now why would anyone want to ruin bacon like that? Careful Brooke,...your man card is in serious distress. :)
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on August 06, 2018, 07:41:47 AM
Bacon is the most overrated food on the planet, Ok its not bad but its mediocre at best. Its pretty much just grease and salt.
:bolt:
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Shuffler on August 06, 2018, 11:44:24 AM
Come on now... everyone knows you can wrap bacon around a dog turd and make it palatable.
...I'm...I'm very sorry to hear your opinion on this, Shuff...
- oldman
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: morfiend on August 06, 2018, 04:01:02 PM
Can someone smarter than me explain this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoCBORXzOqU
While I'm not quite as far out there as some I do believe we are being had!
I've been a fan of Tesla,the man not the car for many years,he could transmit electricity wirelessly and proved it many times.
Sure there are some scams and nonsense out there but this simple coil array in the video seems to be real but what do I know???
:salute
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on August 06, 2018, 04:45:47 PM
It seems like the instrument shows (-)5.92 volt when he attatch it to the coil. My guess is that the metal piece on the side of the coil contains the batteries. Since its DC current the coil is just a wire.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Brooke on August 06, 2018, 05:59:05 PM
Now why would anyone want to ruin bacon like that? Careful Brooke,...your man card is in serious distress. :)
:uhoh
However, Skuzzy, if you are ever in the Seattle area, you let me know, and I will take you to El Gaucho for a great steak, and you can try just one of said bacon brussels sprouts. I'll see if I can win you over. :aok
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: morfiend on August 06, 2018, 06:30:13 PM
It seems like the instrument shows (-)5.92 volt when he attatch it to the coil. My guess is that the metal piece on the side of the coil contains the batteries. Since its DC current the coil is just a wire.
That metal piece is supposed to be a magnet. There are other people doing similar things,Tesla thought the earth was a giant dynamo that we could simply tap into.
The video I picked was just 1 of many that show similar devices,then there are those that claim it's all just RF frequencies..... Like I said can someone smarter than me explain this.....
:salute
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: oakranger on August 06, 2018, 09:32:47 PM
That metal piece is supposed to be a magnet. There are other people doing similar things,Tesla thought the earth was a giant dynamo that we could simply tap into.
The video I picked was just 1 of many that show similar devices,then there are those that claim it's all just RF frequencies..... Like I said can someone smarter than me explain this.....
:salute
Morfiend, these crazy Russians come in my mind, i watched many of their videos all kind of interesting experiments . They are charging cell phones from rail tracks and under power lines. I understand one rail track is always charged for signaling ;i'm guessing, perhaps the test was done under power lines inducing a current in that copper coil, i'm not sure is possible, this videos could be also fake .
https://youtu.be/ZyfXvFicp8M
https://youtu.be/oeYVjOdkUEc
https://youtu.be/hvQ9H9K7XeM
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on August 07, 2018, 02:48:10 AM
Stealing power from the magnetic field around a power line is possible. The electricity in the power line provides you with the (dynamic) magnetic field you need. But it's of course not free energy. The energy comes from the electricity and of you tries to steal too much it will be noticed.. But that is a completely different thing than gluing a permanent magnet to a coil. In order to produce electricity you need either a dynamic magnetic field or a closed circuit moving in a static magnetic field. Both needs an external source of power. Those batteryless flashlights that you shake is a perfect example. Thats just a moving permanent magnet inside a coil. As long as the magnet isn't moving nothing will happens. The dynamic magnetic field is created by moving the magnet inside the coil.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: ghi on August 09, 2018, 10:09:19 PM
If you can explain how the sound turns into light inside the bubble, a Nobel Prize waiting; do it Zimme ,keep the cash in Sweden. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence
Video above is just clip from this older BBC documentary , https://youtu.be/0CN1gAu1Hys but more like bad guys plot in "Chain reaction" movie.
Pistol Shrimp sonic weapon https://youtu.be/XC6I8iPiHT8
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: morfiend on August 10, 2018, 01:20:58 PM
Zimme,
Google Gerard Morin,or better yet look him up on utube. He's a crazy canuk that has done some strange things with electricity,like run around 1200 watt generator and yet power over 4500 watts of appliances.
There are many others doing similar thing,all based off of Tesla's work.
As I said I think we are all being had! There's no way to meter wireless transmission.
:salute
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: mikeWe9a on August 10, 2018, 02:43:12 PM
If you can explain how the sound turns into light inside the bubble, a Nobel Prize waiting; do it Zimme ,keep the cash in Sweden. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence
The wikipedia article seems to explain the process pretty well. The sound causes pressure fluctuations in the water, and the bubbles are created by temporary zones of very low pressure. When the bubble then collapses, the incompressibility of water results in an extremely high, short-lived, pressure spike, allowing the small amount of gas (water vapor or gases normally dissolved in the water) to be heated via compression to the point that they incandesce. The amount of gas in the temporary bubble is very small, resulting in a very small amount of very high temperature plasma in the center. If the amount of gas was larger, the bubble would not collapse as far before the pressure built up, resulting in less energy being spread across a larger amount of gas, and lower final temperatures. The amount of energy available to produce the effect is based on the size of the bubble produced (the larger, the more energy available and the higher the peak temperature) and the amount of gas which evaporates into it (the more gas, the LESS energy available and more gas to put it into, resulting in lower peak temperatures).
Mike
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Zimme83 on August 10, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
Google Gerard Morin,or better yet look him up on utube. He's a crazy canuk that has done some strange things with electricity,like run around 1200 watt generator and yet power over 4500 watts of appliances.
There are many others doing similar thing,all based off of Tesla's work.
As I said I think we are all being had! There's no way to meter wireless transmission.
:salute
I watched 5 mins of one of his videos and it pretty clear that he have very little clue about what he is doing. Seems like an enthusiastic guy with very little knowledge about electricity and magnetism. I dont think he is trying to scam anyone, he is just a bit too overconfident about his own knowledge.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: DaveBB on August 11, 2018, 04:27:38 AM
The wikipedia article seems to explain the process pretty well. The sound causes pressure fluctuations in the water, and the bubbles are created by temporary zones of very low pressure. When the bubble then collapses, the incompressibility of water results in an extremely high, short-lived, pressure spike, allowing the small amount of gas (water vapor or gases normally dissolved in the water) to be heated via compression to the point that they incandesce. The amount of gas in the temporary bubble is very small, resulting in a very small amount of very high temperature plasma in the center. If the amount of gas was larger, the bubble would not collapse as far before the pressure built up, resulting in less energy being spread across a larger amount of gas, and lower final temperatures. The amount of energy available to produce the effect is based on the size of the bubble produced (the larger, the more energy available and the higher the peak temperature) and the amount of gas which evaporates into it (the more gas, the LESS energy available and more gas to put it into, resulting in lower peak temperatures).
Mike
This is also how cavitation works. Destroys countless pump impellers.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: MiloMorai on August 11, 2018, 05:07:11 AM
As well as props on boats.
Title: Re: Carrying capacity of the Earth
Post by: Yeager on August 12, 2018, 05:46:48 PM