...why...that hump-backed, slab-sided, lumpy-like-a-cucumber kerosene-sucking, smelly-smoking 15-ton brick that they laughed and named "Phantom," of course.
Now the F-106, there was a slender ballerina of an aeroplane....
- oldman
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 09:01:20 PM
...why...that hump-backed, slab-sided, lumpy-like-a-cucumber kerosene-sucking, smelly-smoking 15-ton brick that they laughed and named "Phantom," of course.
Now the F-106, there was a slender ballerina of an aeroplane....
- oldman
Yeah, but, the Rhino was a beast and could carry anything out and drop it on someone's noggin. Plus, the Rhino could go like a scalded ape down low in the trees. Like I was in the video below. :D
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 08, 2018, 10:03:38 PM
Yeah, but, the Rhino was a beast and could carry anything out and drop it on someone's noggin. Plus, the Rhino could go like a scalded ape down low in the trees. Like I was in the video below. :D
No, the plane that could go like a scaled ape in the trees was the Thud.
"Check twelve o'clock, see you at the bar." - Red Flag c. 1983 :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 10:05:18 PM
I've known several who have. It's hardly uncommon.
(Not to say that the F-4 wasn't/isn't fast as it sure was/is.)
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 08, 2018, 11:59:13 PM
So, the answer is no. Then, you’re not aware that the term “go like a scalded ape” is frequently used in the real fighter world to describe the ability to move out at max possible speed, in a fast mover.
There’s no denying the Thud was extremely fast down low and could do a lot of damage along the way. I too have met numerous pilots who have flown it and I’ve seen it in action.
You seem to know everyone and every thing. Just be cautious about speaking out of turn. :salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2018, 12:13:21 AM
So, the answer is no. Then, you’re not aware that the term “go like a scalded ape” is frequently used in the real fighter world to describe the ability to move out at max possible speed, in a fast mover.
There’s no denying the Thud was extremely fast down low and could do a lot of damage along the way. I too have met numerous pilots who have flown it and I’ve seen it in action.
You seem to know everyone and every thing. Just be cautious about speaking out of turn. :salute
No caution needed or required.
I am well aware of the phrase and its meaning--it's not a secret code. I see nothing inconsistent with what I've said vs. what you've said. My comment was not a smear on the Rhino but was merely a compliment to the Thud. :cheers:
Going fast down low is not unique to any fighter or attack jet in this class, but the F-105 made a legend of itself for doing it better and faster than anyone--and not just in a stripped down form for a speed record dash either. The reference in the message above that has attracted your ire was in regard to an actual event at their final Red Flag where the 105s outran everyone, even old, tired and worn as they were. I recall something about the pursuing airplanes getting into windshield overheat territory in a vain attempt to keep up. It's a vague memory now unfortunately, but a good story. (I think the appropriate response would have been a chuckle, not a public attempt at flogging.)
So in this context I will speak, with all due respect and appropriate deference, as I please when I please within the rules of the forums to the best of my ability. :aok
No insult intended (and no animals were harmed during the writing of this post).
Carry on. :salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 09, 2018, 01:02:47 AM
Yeah, but, the Rhino was a beast and could carry anything out and drop it on someone's noggin. Plus, the Rhino could go like a scalded ape down low in the trees. Like I was in the video below. :D
A guy I used to work with flew both the F-4 and the F-15. I was surprised when he said the highest speed he obtained was in the Phantom. His tale of a late in the day just before club closing blast from Eielson to Elmendorf burner run that only took like 18 minutes was pretty funny. He assumed he had set a record only to find his CO had done it in a few minutes less.
One of the most awesome things I saw, and would have loved to have a photograph of, was a 2-ship of alert Phantoms that launched from Elmendorf on a very rainy late afternoon. As lead rotated there was a huge wake of mist blowing back, the flame from the afterburners were bent on the runway surface and of course the sound of the 4 J-79s was awe inspiring....at least for a young paratrooper.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2018, 01:13:58 AM
I can't top that Columbo but I'll never forget rushing to the Airsho' in Harlingen back around 1986 to try and meet Chuck Yeager. I was late and as we were pulling onto the airport road two dark green F-4s flew over our head at about 50 feet off the ground, with Yeager in the lead.
Absolutely howling. Speed restriction? Not on your life. They set off every car alarm (if they even existed then) within five miles of their path going out of there. :bolt:
Never met him but that experience was perhaps even better.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: TequilaChaser on September 09, 2018, 01:16:29 AM
I always found it funny how the AF F4 phantoms used those ladders....where as the Navy F4 phantoms I worked on never had or required them
Still is one of my all-time favorites of the different types of jets I had the joy to work on and do high power turn quals in....
TC
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 09, 2018, 09:27:43 AM
we were pulling onto the airport road two dark green F-4s
For me it was a natural metal F-100 at Newton, KS around 1960 or 61. We were driving onto the small airport where there was some kind of aviation thing going on when an F-100 crossed very low, very fast from right to left. I remember the big buzz number on the side of the F-100. And it was pretty obvious that none of the crowd distance regulations had been enacted back then. :)
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 09, 2018, 09:29:27 AM
I am still looking for the F-4 guy that blew my hootch down with a low pass just outside Ft. Yukon, AK. Awesome pass dude but I put a lot of work in that hootch!
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 09, 2018, 09:32:47 AM
I always found it funny how the AF F4 phantoms used those ladders....where as the Navy F4 phantoms I worked on never had or required them
Still is one of my all-time favorites of the different types of jets I had the joy to work on and do high power turn quals in....
TC
We Air Force guys used the retractable steps for hanging helmet bags, harnesses, etc during the preflight walkaround.
The Rhino never failed to motivate when grunts would request a flyby during field exercises. Of course, we would add low, fast, and full AB to the flyby. On one occasion in Egypt, the attached AF ALO was very excited after our low two ship flyover with a shackle and pitch up in full AB with flares spitting out as we aileron rolled vertically. He yelled over the radio that it was fantastic and the General loved it. I asked what General? His reply, “the Corp Commander and the General wanted us to do another”. Using discretion, I replied “negative, bingo, RTB”.
I am still looking for the F-4 guy that blew my hootch down with a low pass just outside Ft. Yukon, AK. Awesome pass dude but I put a lot of work in that hootch!
It wasn’t me but, sounds oddly familiar. :D. That is, just the low pass part.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2018, 09:33:02 AM
For me it was a natural metal F-100 at Newton, KS around 1960 or 61. We were driving onto the small airport where there was some kind of aviation thing going on when an F-100 crossed very low, very fast from right to left. I remember the big buzz number on the side of the F-100. And it was pretty obvious that none of the crowd distance regulations had been enacted back then. :)
The Hun! :aok
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2018, 09:33:35 AM
I am still looking for the F-4 guy that blew my hootch down with a low pass just outside Ft. Yukon, AK. Awesome pass dude but I put a lot of work in that hootch!
It was Puma. :banana: :rofl
Edit In: Don't let him kid you. It was him. :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 09, 2018, 12:46:40 PM
It was pretty awesome. We were on this tiny hilltop, maybe 30-40 feet about surrounding terrain. Lead bottomed out of his dive below where I was standing, looking in the intakes was impressive. As he passed over our GP medium tent used to show movies at night he pitched up hard, afterburner, two rolls as he climbed away. The wake flattened the GP tent with the center ridge pole destroyed the projector. He also sucked my hootch and a couple others off the ground. -2 came by pretty high, he was probably 50' above us. The audio/visual guys back on Rich didn't believe the story that "a Phantom destroyed the projector". :)
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2018, 12:54:18 PM
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 09, 2018, 04:29:58 PM
It was pretty awesome. We were on this tiny hilltop, maybe 30-40 feet about surrounding terrain. Lead bottomed out of his dive below where I was standing, looking in the intakes was impressive. As he passed over our GP medium tent used to show movies at night he pitched up hard, afterburner, two rolls as he climbed away. The wake flattened the GP tent with the center ridge pole destroyed the projector. He also sucked my hootch and a couple others off the ground. -2 came by pretty high, he was probably 50' above us. The audio/visual guys back on Rich didn't believe the story that "a Phantom destroyed the projector". :)
A nice motivation pass, all in good fun for you grunts.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 09, 2018, 04:38:42 PM
A nice motivation pass, all in good fun for you grunts.
Says the guy that flew home, stopped by the club then perhaps a few laps in the pool before climbing into his luxury bed while the "motivated" troop tried to find his mosquito netting so that he might have some blood left in the morning.
:devil
It was no doubt the most impressive pass I saw.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 09, 2018, 04:42:21 PM
Says the guy that flew home, stopped by the club then perhaps a few laps in the pool before climbing into his luxury bed while the "motivated" troop tried to find his mosquito netting so that he might have some blood left in the morning.
:devil
It was no doubt the most impressive pass I saw.
:rofl. Glad one of my brethren made your day in more than one way. We had to be well rested and refreshed to conduct such precision airshows for you guys. Most certainly a privilege and way more fun than you can imagine. :salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2018, 04:47:55 PM
:rofl. Glad one of my brethren made your day in more than one way. We had to be well rested and refreshed to conduct such precision airshows for you guys. Most certainly a privilege and way more fun than you can imagine. :salute
Says the guy that flew home, stopped by the club then perhaps a few laps in the pool before climbing into his luxury bed while the "motivated" troop tried to find his mosquito netting so that he might have some blood left in the morning.
:devil
It was no doubt the most impressive pass I saw.
Plus, I theorized that a low enough pass at high speed and full AB would warm and dry you guys who had been sleeping in the rain and mud. No to mention erraticating a few mosquitos.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Gman on September 09, 2018, 09:45:09 PM
Puma, what can you elaborate on regarding the j79 engines? I've been re reading Mark Berent's books which go into great detail his and his character's F4 Phantom time in Vietnam, and some other books and sources I've read recently too really talk up the J79 as one of the great fighter engines of our lifetime. Some of the RCAF pilots I've spoken to about the F104 said it was one of the few parts of the 104 that was great.
How do you compare the F4 models that flew in Vietnam vs the Mig 17, 19, and especially the 21 back then?
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 09, 2018, 10:52:46 PM
Puma, what can you elaborate on regarding the j79 engines? I've been re reading Mark Berent's books which go into great detail his and his character's F4 Phantom time in Vietnam, and some other books and sources I've read recently too really talk up the J79 as one of the great fighter engines of our lifetime. Some of the RCAF pilots I've spoken to about the F104 said it was one of the few parts of the 104 that was great.
How do you compare the F4 models that flew in Vietnam vs the Mig 17, 19, and especially the 21 back then?
The first thing about the J79 is that it is an indestructible brute. Pushing the throttles up and they both delivered instantly. The engines could be at idle in the middle of a dogfight and deliver full AB power as fast as the pilot could push them forward to the stops. I personally have never had one cough or hesitate, nor have I ever heard of one doing it. It was amazing to have that range of power available without hesitation. Early J79s had a characteristic thick smoke trail that could be easily be seen 50 miles or farther against a clear sky. A technique used when entering an engagement would be to drill straight at an opponent and at the desired time go into min AB which pretty much eliminated the smoke trails. At this point the Rhino pilots would action out of plane to hopefully make the opponent lose the visual. One of the nicknames for the F-4 was “Ole Smokey”. The joke among F-4 pilots was when an opponent was trapped at six, deselect AB and blow smoke and cinders in his eyes. In later years, the F-4s were equipped with “smokeless” J79s. This started during my second tour. In the midst of the conversion, it was not uncommon the see an F-4 coming up initial with a smoker and smokeless installed. The contrast was stunning. It appeared as the jet had one engine shutdown since the new engines where virtually smokeless.
I entered the USAF at the end of Vietnam and didn’t see combat there. When the F-4 was being developed, the powers to be decided it didn’t need an internal gun because it would be equipped with long range radar misseles that could reach out and touch someone BVR (beyond visual range). Two problems with that theory. One was ROE requiring VID before launch. With the small size of the MIGs, it was difficult to get a VID before the MIG was inside the F pole for the radar missles. A late VID would cause the Phantom pilots to maneuver for a possible IR shot. This could be difficult to do because of the second problem. The MIGS turned much tighter than the Phantom causing a turning fight which could prove deadly without a gun in the Phantom. Inside the F pole for the missles left the gunless Phantoms at risk. As a side note, we flew against Egyptian Fishbeds one day and simply could not see them in the hazy Egyptian sky. When GCI called them 2 miles at six, we stroked the J79s and extended away from the Migs. With short fuel range, they broke off. The old head Vietnam Vets I trained with always said to not get in the phone booth with a MIG but, to shoot them in the lips with the Sparrow, then the Sidewinder, then a snap shot with the gun and blow through while maintaining high speed. Of course there always exceptions to the rule and some Rhino drivers were able to defy the odds and get MIG kills.
To help alleviate these problems, the F-4E was developed with an internal 20mm Vulcan cannon with a firing rate of 6,000 rounds per minute and leading edge slats. Phantom pilots planned on three 2 second bursts before expending the available internal gun load. We routinely strafed practice ground targets and airborne towed targets. The gun was my favorite. The growl and vibration in the nose and rudder pedals was exhilarating. Pretty much worth a woody every time.
The leading edge slats allowed Phantom pilots to do high AOA rolling maneuvers with the ailerons in addition to the rudder. In previous hard wing Phantoms, pilots had to do high AOA rolling maneuvers with rudder alone. Use of aileron would cause the jet to depart and enter Mr Toad’s Wild Ride. So, the E model had much improved maneuvering performance. (Reminds me of a story for later about a flight examiner’s High AOA demo turned into an out of control recovery).
The E model was an amazing jet. My first assignment in it was in an air to air squadron in the ROK. After gaining proficiency, it was common to get in the phone booth in the vertical ending up with no airspeed indication and be in complete control of the jet beyond the edge of the envelope.
So many memories and great stories......... :salute
Hope I’ve answered your questions.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Gman on September 10, 2018, 03:24:01 PM
Answered and then some, thanks Puma, what a great post, I could read this stuff indefinitely.
It's interesting the trick you describe with the engine smoke, reminds me of something Mace said once about messing with the wing sweep intentionally on the F14 at merge so opponents would think they were in a far different energy state, and then mess them up accordingly.
Like to hear more sometime about your deployment in Korea with the F4, must have been interesting flying.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 10, 2018, 03:47:19 PM
Answered and then some, thanks Puma, what a great post, I could read this stuff indefinitely.
It's interesting the trick you describe with the engine smoke, reminds me of something Mace said once about messing with the wing sweep intentionally on the F14 at merge so opponents would think they were in a far different energy state, and then mess them up accordingly.
Like to hear more sometime about your deployment in Korea with the F4, must have been interesting flying.
Yeah, the Tomcat guys were always working some kind of an angle. Basically, the mode in fighter combat is that “if you ain’t cheatin’, you ain't tryin’”.
Reminds me of a 2v2 in the F-106 vs the Tomkitties.
And scorching the tail of the Phantom in Korea.
I’m short on time right now but, will expand on both of these later this afternoon.
:salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 10, 2018, 04:02:42 PM
In western most time zone.....tapping fingers on desk top.
OK,OK, I"m back.
So, we are at Tyndall AFB for our annual "shot the nuke" Qualification Event. Every year the F-106 had to shoot an inert Genie and get withing scoreable hit distance. Sounds easy, eh? Well, that's a whole other story. We scheduled for two weeks, usually during the winter months so us norther tier boys could get warmed up and sunburned. All the jets were usually qualified in the first week. So, we had DACT scheduled for the second week. This one year we had a bunch of Tomcats from Oceana as I recall.
Its going really well and all concerned were having a blast with the Kitties. The first day we briefed FOX 1,2, and 3 simulated weapons availability but, no Phoenix for the Tomcats. That would be cheating. Fox 1 was a radar missile, Fox 2 was a heat seeker, and Fox 3 was the gun in the F-14. In the F-106, Fox 3 was the NUKE but, they were unaware of that and we surely weren't going to tell them that. So, the first day was a 4V4. We launched early and set up on the opposite side of the area and had presorted the Kitty that each of us would lock on to and shoot. When they checked into the area, we were already line abreast 4-6,000 feet apart. "Fights on" was called and we simultaneously called FOX 3 and executed our nuke escape maneuver. Of course the Tomcat guys thought we had lost our minds shooting the gun that far out and calling kills on all of them. They continued running us down but, GCI called a Knock it Off and explained that they had just been nuked. The rest of the week it was heaters and guns only. The Six or Iron Triangle as we called it was capable of extremely high end speed and accelerated quickly. It could do one hard bat turn and them it was nose down and full burner to regain the speed that had just been burned off in the turn. To say the least, getting in the phone booth with the Tomcat was a load of fun and humbling.
Later that week, I launched in two ship and my lead had a mechanical requiring immediate RTB. So, I arrived in the airspace early as a single ship and waited for the two ship of Kitties to arrive. The Six had a UHF Data Link receive only unit. So, I dialed up the Tomcat discrete frequency and heard them check in with GCI. When they came up on the common freq, I started making two sets of radio calls using my best ventriloquist voice to simulate my missing wingman. The Tomcat guys were in a panic because they could only find one target, me. Again, we were heaters and guns only. So, it was going to be a phone booth fight. I locked onto the lead, selected full AB, and went straight at him. With a visual on both, I rolled inverted, supersonic and made a canopy to canopy pass with lead. We then transitioned into the phone booth. They spanked me without mercy.
Which reminds me of the Tomcat dual engine flameout, the Bomarc Missile shoot, and the Six low altitude supersonic intercept stories. But, I'll get onto the F-4 story. I know Columbo is waiting impatiently. :rofl
As I mentioned earlier, the F-4E was very maneuverable in high the AOA, low speed environment. One of the old head instructors at my squadron in Korea taught me to be ready when chasing a guy uphill in burner. The trick was to park right behind and under his tail in full AB and be the first to crack a notch of flaps. This would allow the chaser just enough control authority to outlast the chasee as gravity took over the high AOA/low to no airspeed indication. By staying buried in his close deep six, he would eventual roll just a little to see where I was. This would cause gravity to take over and him pitch straight down in max AB trying to regain speed. Since I was first with the flaps out, there was just enough control authority to rudder the nose over, point at him, and FOX 2 (heat seeker) him with a full steady growl in the headset from the seeker head on the missile. When we RTBed and parked the crew chiefs were irritated because the tail of the jet had black soot all over the tail from doing somewhat of a tail slide and wrapping the burner plume around the tail. They would, of course, have to do extra work and get a stand and clean their jet and make it look presentable. I learned early on in my flying career that I was only borrowing the Crew Chief's jet, not flying my jet.
Then there was the time North Korean SAM site lit up our RHAW hear when we were playing in the ACMI area.
And the time of the near dual PC failure.
And live firing the new AIM-7 in the Phillipines.....and the AIM-9.
:airplane: :salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 10, 2018, 05:15:45 PM
Answered and then some, thanks Puma, what a great post, I could read this stuff indefinitely.
It's interesting the trick you describe with the engine smoke, reminds me of something Mace said once about messing with the wing sweep intentionally on the F14 at merge so opponents would think they were in a far different energy state, and then mess them up accordingly.
Like to hear more sometime about your deployment in Korea with the F4, must have been interesting flying.
"Palace Cobra" by Ed Rasiums is a must-read then.
I agree, good stuff by Puma.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 10, 2018, 08:40:02 PM
You remember I'm terminal right....no time for patience here!! Didn't the crew chief at least get some satisfaction from you owning the F-14 guy?
Oh, most definitely. He thought it was pretty funny.
So, what do you want to hear about next?
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: TequilaChaser on September 11, 2018, 12:09:31 AM
Quote
I learned early on in my flying career that I was only borrowing the Crew Chief's jet, not flying my jet.
I got a really good ol'laugh out of this line....
Reminds me of my time in VS-24 and the Squadron CO & XO was getting ready to go fly, I was the plane captain of his (my) S-3A Viking.....
I had signaled for him to start the APU, Engine 1, then Engine 2...going through the whole process of checking flaps, ailerons, rudder, elevators, launch bar, landing light etc.....
Then while verifying the hydraulic pressure was good/in the grey area/too low.... They were right at the very minimal limit of 2,900 psi on the gauge, in the tail hook bay......that was left up to my decision to go/no go.....so I called the flight off, refusing to launch my CO & XO, totally pee'ing both of them off
It was my call, I made it..... After that, the CO called me that cocky sob.....LOL
Keep the stories/memories flowing.....am enjoying them gratefully Puma
~S~
TC
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 11, 2018, 12:11:22 AM
Oh, most definitely. He thought it was pretty funny.
So, what do you want to hear about next?
The airport where I worked got a new airport director, a retired AF Colonel who hired a bunch of retired military pilots. F-4, F-15, C-130, F-18, Coast Guard H-3. My productivity dropped when I could get these guys to talk.
Talk about anything you want, you lived the life I wanted to live.
I once had to turn down a ride in an F-4 owned by the Collings Foundation. I just didn't have the time to head back to Houston. Oh yeah, the ride was going to be flown by Steve Ritchie if you've heard of him. I do kind of regret saying no. :)
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 11, 2018, 12:19:53 AM
Read that one..PER YOUR insistence! WAS NOT disappointed :rock :rock
:aok :salute :cheers: "Palace Cobra" was a book I was sad to put down.
From the Marine perspective:
Fiction - "Pettibone's Law" (one of my former instructors swears half of it was truth masquerading as fiction). Fact - "Phantom Over Vietnam" (it's been awhile since I read it, but it will give you the Marine side of a lot of the things Puma has talked about).
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 11, 2018, 12:49:34 AM
The airport where I worked got a new airport director, a retired AF Colonel who hired a bunch of retired military pilots. F-4, F-15, C-130, F-18, Coast Guard H-3. My productivity dropped when I could get these guys to talk.
Talk about anything you want, you lived the life I wanted to live.
I once had to turn down a ride in an F-4 owned by the Collings Foundation. I just didn't have the time to head back to Houston. Oh yeah, the ride was going to be flown by Steve Ritchie if you've heard of him. I do kind of regret saying no. :)
My very first instructor (who was also my Freshman English teacher) when I went to the Marine Military Academy in Harlingen was a retired Marine Major (F-4s). He had 250+ missions in Vietnam or something crazy like that. Modest guy but he had some funny stories.
One of the best ones was how they crashed a Navy medal ceremony. They took toilet paper rolls of all kinds and stuffed them up inside the speed brakes on a four ship of Marine Rhinos. At about the time the big cheese was making his remarks they came roaring in, burners lit, boards out at the appropriate moment to make it rain... Toilet paper fluttering down and covering the whole parade deck...
When he told us the story I laughed myself silly for two days. He was and is quite the character.
He also swears that the book "Pettibone's Law" had to have been written by someone he knew in Nam because many of the stories in it are 10000000% true (as he witnessed them firsthand).
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: nooby52 on September 11, 2018, 08:54:53 AM
I grew up in Birmingham, AL, across the street from the south end of the runway of the Birmingham airport, home of the Alabama ANG. For two weeks every summer I could sit in my front yard and watch the F4s taxi to "my"end of the runway, make their turn, two-by-two, straighten up, throttle forward, notch the afterburners, as they rent the evening air with their awesome roar, fire trailing as they rocketed down the runway. Then repeat as about 7 or 8 more pairs did the same thing. I remember those days with much fondness.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 11, 2018, 02:42:52 PM
In 1985, we deployed 8 F-4Es from Moody AFB to Cairo West AB, Egypt for Bright Star Combined Force Exercise. Following weeks of work up, launch time came for the flight that took 12.6 hours of flight time and 11 air refuelings. Armed with a myriad of maps, box lunches, and our normal flight gear, we stepped to the jets after an extensive brief. First, checked the aircraft forms and built a nest with all the extra stuff not normally carried on a local flight. Then, the walk around. The jet was perfect. Leaking just a little oil and hydraulic fluid as normal to indicate that there were fluids in the jet. Nothing leaking was valid cause for concern and investigation. You could always tell a Rhino crew by the strip of fluid that leaked onto their back during the duck walk pre flight. Everyone climbed up, strapped in, and brought the J79s to life. The familiar rumble and sound as they spun up to idle was comforting on that hot and humid August night. Lead called for checkin and everyone chirped in crisply. We then started the taxi for a south departure, followed by the two air spare jets. They were to takeoff and follow to the first tanker hookup to ensure the eight primaries could hook up and take on fuel.
My backseater and I were number 4 in the second four ship because I was the only pilot who hadn’t made an ocean crossing and the other pilots out ranked me. Our takeoff was planned for a 2230 takeoff behind our two KC-10 tankers. After the first four ship cleared EOR and took the runway, we entered EOR for predeparture checks by the EOR crew chiefs. Ours plugged in said howdy then unplugged to do his inspection. Almost immediately, he came back up on the intercom and said we had a hydraulic leak in the left brake. I asked if he thought it was a show stopper. He said the DCM and surrounding O-6s would have to decide. As we watched all the head scratching going on, the rest of our fourship was leaving EOR for the runway. We were both frantically waving to get the crowd’s attention with no response. When I goosed the left engine, the resulting roaring screech caused everyone to look our way. I waved the CC over. When he answered up on the intercom, I asked what the decision was. They were still deciding. I told him to unplug, pull chocks, and get out of the way. We were going back to the ramp for a ground spare. He did so and we pivoted around to head back to the ramp as the two airspares pulled into the EOR and, of course, saluting smartly to the gang of O-6s. WE WERE NOT GOING TO MISS THIS DEPLOYMENT! We hauled azz down the taxiway, parked next to one of the spares and began a very expedited shutdown, preflight, start up, taxi process.
We again hauled donut back and entered EOR as the air spares were taking the runway. Our same crew chief popped up on intercom and said he would quick turn us. Shortly, he appeared off the left side, intercom cord in hand, and flashing a big smile and thumbs up. I gave him the pull chocks signal, he did so, and we took the runway, did the checks, and lit up the burners. Off the runway with gear coming up, my pitter asked what we were goin to do. He was concerned with the radar picture displayed. Both KC-10s with four and three Rhinos in tow were in a sweeping left turn from south to northeast to begin the great circle route to Egypt. The two air spare bastages were closing on the three ship. My pitter asked how we were going to do this. My answer, “watch this cutoff”. I took a huge lead vector in front of the lead KC-10 to get maximum closure rate. We were, of course, in full AB for most of this, until we had about 450-500 knots of energy built up. As we closed on the gaggle, I adjusted our energy state and smartly muscled in front of the air spares who were a few thousand feet in trail of our position in for the second four ship. They followed us until the first AR hook up and RTBed.
Then, several hours of night AR in the top of cumulonimbus nimbus clouds followed. The rest of the story later. :salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 11, 2018, 07:16:20 PM
Good stuff.
I'll throw this one in. Shorty but goody.
Jerry Cooke wrote a book about his career which included a Vietnam tour or two in F-4s. One story he related was a conversation he overheard between some F-105s he was escorting.
The F-105s' said something like this:
"Lead this is Four."
"Go, Four."
"Sir, I got slung wide on that last turn and I've lost the formation." This was an inexperienced pilot and the tone in his voice was filled with apprehension.
The lead was obviously concerned. "Do you know where you are?"
"Yes, sir."
"Well where the HELL are you?" the flight lead replied, with exasperation.
"I'm over downtown Hanoi."
"What the hell are you doing there?????" came the leader's booming query.
"A thousand miles an hour!"
:rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 12, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
So, we proceeded to climb to our cruise altitude of 28,000 feet, for the trip across the Atlantic. This was the optimum altitude the KC-10s could cruise for the distance to be flown. On the other hand, it was higher than F-4s normally refueled. Optimum altitude for the Rhinos was normally in the 20-24,000 ft range. Since we were loaded to the gills with all sorts of junk the maintenance guys could hang on the jets, 28,000 was definitely a challenge while hanging on the boom.
In addition to the altitude challenge, there were towering cumulus along the route at our altitude. The towers were scattered but, seemed to show up about the time it was my turn to hook up with the tanker. This added turbulence to a less than ideal performance state on the boom. Of course, the tanker guys would just drive through the tops vs taking a slight deviation around them. So, plugging into the boom was doable but, staying there was another thing. As our ride took on fuel there was a point that both throttles had to be against the MIL stops. The continuing increase in fuel weight soon made MIL a losing proposition. To maintain the middle of the “green apple” on the boom, modulating in and out of min burner on one engine was required. This created an asymmetrical situation requiring cross controls to prevent a brute force disconnect from the boom. Then as the fuel load increased even more, one burner had to be left in min and the other modulated in and out of min burner. This was a taxing event combined with the tower CUs and higher altitude. We continued this for the next 4-5 hours.
Later after coming off the boom and settling into position on the tanker, I realized daybreak was in progress. The sky and everything below us was a hazy grey with no discernible horizon. I asked my backseater if we were over the ocean. He answered “Yeah, for the last three hours”.
We still had nearly eight hours to go and I was exhausted already.
And the rest of the story later.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 12, 2018, 11:01:36 AM
How much movement do you have before you'll break the contact?
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 12, 2018, 11:21:29 AM
How much movement do you have before you'll break the contact?
Don’t recall ever hearing an exact number. The are director lights on the belly of the tanker showing UP/DWN and FWD/AFT. When positioned perfectly, there are a set of green Captain’s Bar's as they are called. Also, on the boon there are colored bands with a green circle in the middle. This is referred to as the “Green Apple”. The goal is to have the Apple split in half by the boom shroud. With this accomplished and both Captains Bars illuminated, a perfect position is obtained. To get a brute force disconnect one would have to allow one or more of the three positioning indicators to go into a red band. This didn’t happen very often. Most of the time a brute force disconnect was the result of turbulence, or ham fists. In my F-106 unit, we had a Squadron CC who come back from refueling sorties with 3-4 feet of the boom stuck in his AR receptacle, THREE TIMES. Everyone scrambled to get off the AR schedule when he was on.
I found the Six a much more solid AR platform than the Phantom. With the flying stabilator, the Phantom was naturally pitch sensitive.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 12, 2018, 11:32:28 AM
Awesome stuff.
What would losing an engine on a burner takeoff be like? I realize the engines are near the centerline but that's one heck of a lot of differential thrust. Would it be akin to how the 737 behaves or much worse?
That pitch sensitivity has been demonstrated a few times by the Navy coming off the catapult. One inch too far aft and it was a high AOA rudder dance. One intrepid aviator got a new callsign that way. The Admiral was on the bridge when a someone did that in a B and said, "I can see that guy's boots." Yep. You guessed it. Boots. (Paul Gilchrist wrote about that one.)
You should write a book. Seriously. It would be a fun read.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 12, 2018, 12:03:51 PM
What would losing an engine on a burner takeoff be like? I realize the engines are near the centerline but that's one heck of a lot of differential thrust. Would it be akin to how the 737 behaves or much worse?
That pitch sensitivity has been demonstrated a few times by the Navy coming off the catapult. One inch too far aft and it was a high AOA rudder dance. One guy got a new callsign that way. The Admiral was on the bridge when a guy did that in a B and said, "I can see that guy's boots." Yep. You guessed it. Boots. (Paul Gilchrist wrote about that one.)
You should write a book. Seriously. It would be a fun read.
I’ve never experienced a failure at all, let alone on takeoff. We practiced and were evaluated on single engine approaches, etc. The jet was very solid on one engine and wasn’t much of a concern for the most part. At full combat load on takeoff, it might have been a bit of an issue but, that’s were the SALVO ALL selector would come in handy.
No comparison at all to the 737. Similar to the T-38 centerline thrust rating issued after pilot training for those of us who did the MILCOMP written test. I later got a real multiengine rating in a 310.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Mister Fork on September 12, 2018, 03:45:28 PM
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 12, 2018, 06:29:33 PM
:aok I could read this sort of stuff ALL NIGHT :rock Too good NOT TO SHARE...you are my HERO,sir! That was ALL I EVER wanted to do..had the grades, had the drive...but BS took over. Damn FUTBAL...blew out both knees. Wasnt a total loss...I will always have Top Gun and Iron Eagle,plus the assorted Documentaries and Books...so I dealt with it :cheers:
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 12, 2018, 07:26:24 PM
:aok I could read this sort of stuff ALL NIGHT :rock Too good NOT TO SHARE...you are my HERO,sir! That was ALL I EVER wanted to do..had the grades, had the drive...but BS took over. Damn FUTBAL...blew out both knees. Wasnt a total loss...I will always have Top Gun and Iron Eagle,plus the assorted Documentaries and Books...so I dealt with it :cheers:
Glad you enjoy it. No hero here. Just another grain of sand in an immense effort to keep our freedom and way of life safe. :salute .....and so very privileged to fly some really cool jets along the way.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 12, 2018, 08:03:51 PM
This created an asymmetrical situation requiring cross controls to prevent a brute force disconnect from the boom.
My F-4 buddy told me of a night AR where they were flying through a slanted layer of clouds. Dave said his back seater asked if he "was okay" and Dave realized he had the jet flying sideways as he fought the vertigo induced by the odd visual cues.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 12, 2018, 11:04:45 PM
My F-4 buddy told me of a night AR where they were flying through a slanted layer of clouds. Dave said his back seater asked if he "was okay" and Dave realized he had the jet flying sideways as he fought the vertigo induced by the odd visual cues.
My first assignment out of UPT was the venerable Lockheed Racer, more commonly known as the T-33 Shooting Star. Crews referred to it as the stretch F-80.
The T-33s were used by ADCOM as interceptor target support, proficiency flying for headquarters peuks, and various mission support activities (some really interesting stories here).
One crisp, clear Southern California winter night we were flying a target mission out of Pt Magu. Pretty simple. Fly west over the Pacific for about 350 miles, turn around, fly east to land, and harass the interceptors along the way with our under wing chaff and ecm pods. We were on the east bound leg on this moonless, pitch dark night when I noticed my partner in the front seat was slowly banking to the right. I asked what he was doing and he replied “nothing” and snapped back on the proper heading. After a few minutes it started happening again. I took a closer look out front to see a series of boat and drill rig lights that formed an artificial horizon line. My front seater was subconsciously lining up with this fake horizon. He eventually went to pure instrument flying until the coastline came into view.
Another time on a similar mission out of Elgin AFB, Fl, we were to fly due south checking frequency reception over the Gulf for ATC. On departure out of Elgin we encountered scattered towering cumulus clouds. As we climbed, the cloud layers thickened along with intermittent lightening. Did I mention that it was monsoon season? I was again in the rear cockpit this leg, enjoying the light show. The lucky dude up front was having a tough time even flying on instruments due to the lightening and turbulence. He admitted to being extremely spatially disoriented. So, I pulled the much hated instrument flying hood from its storage behind my seat, over my head, and attached it to the top of my instrument panel, completely blocking the light show from view. I flew the rest of the sortie under the beloved instrument hood. My bud enjoyed about three hours of disorienting, psychedelic light show. On our last frequency with ATC on the southbound leg started to get scratchy and broken. The controller told us that when he quit answering us to fly south another ten minutes, then turn around and head back. Sure was a dark, nasty night.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 13, 2018, 12:57:56 AM
While working on my commercial ticket I did a dual night cross-country from Anchorage to Talkeetna and back. The forecast called for some snow showers but the CFI and I didn't feel the risk was bad. Sound familiar? :) As we approached Talkeetna the snow increased so it was a quick bank the mains on the ground for landing credit and get pointed back toward Anchorage.
Did I mention this was in a mighty Cessna 152 with a single Nav/Com radio?
As we headed back south the snow intensity increased to the point where I don't believe we were any longer legal VFR. From our altitude of 1500' we had about a 2 mile circle on the ground we could see detail in. I was tracking outbound from the Big Lake VOR on a radial that would put me in position to find the airport and basically flying instruments while peeking outside for hints of where we were. As we got closer to town there were more lights on the ground, mostly the yellowish sodium yard lights. As I'm looking out I see lights moving across our nose from left to right. I think I'm seeing a Herc in the pattern at Elmendorf and even call the traffic to the CFI. About then I got that funny feeling you sometimes get. I took a good look at the instruments and realized I was in about a 60-70 degree left bank, the nose had dropped 10 degrees or so and we'd turned nearly 90 degrees.
The "Herc landing lights" were actually a couple of those sodium yard lights. I got wings level, stopped the descent and turned back to my original heading. About then the CFI became aware that something was up and started to talk. I said to him "shutup, I'm flying the airplane!". A mile or so later the city lights came into view, the scary went away and we landed in about 10 inches of fresh, new snow which makes for great arrestor gear.
It was a great lesson to have entered a situation that has killed so many.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 01:13:42 AM
Yikes! A close one. Good thing you were in the Mighty 152. :aok
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 13, 2018, 02:30:41 AM
Reading these last couple of posts....I wonder if this is the same thing that causes accidents due to rubber necking? Think you know what I mean? :uhoh Just more natural to steer to where you are looking. It just struck me funny,imagining my Dad flying. Oh look, a Deer...GRRRRR(the rough patch of road edge on highway) :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 09:33:36 AM
Reading these last couple of posts....I wonder if this is the same thing that causes accidents due to rubber necking? Think you know what I mean? :uhoh Just more natural to steer to where you are looking. It just struck me funny,imagining my Dad flying. Oh look, a Deer...GRRRRR(the rough patch of road edge on highway) :rofl
In an airplane, the inner ear and brain pan are dealing with three dimensions vs two while driving. More than likely, drivers are the victims of innattention or distraction.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Mister Fork on September 13, 2018, 11:05:29 AM
In an airplane, the inner ear and brain pan are dealing with three dimensions vs two while driving. More than likely, drivers are the victims of innattention or distraction.
...why do most of us find flying easier than driving then? :D
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 11:56:46 AM
...why do most of us find flying easier than driving then? :D
Because usually the easiest thing to hit is the ground. :D
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 12:37:23 PM
True. The ground pretty much always wins.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Mister Fork on September 13, 2018, 12:43:46 PM
A good friend of mine, former CF-18 pilot, once told me the wise pilots wisdom statement. "I'd rather be down on the ground wishing I was flying, than flying wishing I was down on the ground."
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 13, 2018, 12:45:09 PM
My first assignment out of UPT was the venerable Lockheed Racer, more commonly known as the T-33 Shooting Star.
In the early 70s they were using T-33s here in Alaska for some tactical missions such as dropping off recon film. They were also equipped with sensors and would harass the modern tactical aircraft. Very common to see a T-33 in the pattern back then. Sadly on spun in on the turn to base one day with the loss of the crew.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 13, 2018, 12:54:46 PM
A good friend of mine, former CF-18 pilot, once told me the wise pilots wisdom statement. "I'd rather be down on the ground wishing I was flying, than flying wishing I was down on the ground."
A very true statement for sure. One day at the drop zone I called off flying due to the turbulent wind. Our runway was set in a narrow strip between tall trees and the rotors as you went below the tree tops could be quite challenging. One of the jumpers was griping quite a bit about the "wasted blue sky". After an hour or so the winds had eased some and I figured I could launch and recover without dying so called for the load. Mr Grump was sitting up next to me on the floor facing aft. I wore a flight suit when hauling jumpers, when I got to the end of the runway I stopped to zip everything up and pulled on my gloves. Grumpy asked why and I replied "cuz it's still windy". As we climbed through the rotor zone we got rolled over hard (things hadn't calmed quite as much as I thought) I had to do a little pilot stuff to avoid the trees and as we got into smooth air I looked over to Grumpy and said "aren't we glad we're flying?". From that day onward I would often here Grumpy telling jumpers that if Dale says we shouldn't be jumping just listen to him. :)
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 13, 2018, 01:50:36 PM
LOL! Nice one.
Did you hear the story about the kid who was a student pilot and got ramp checked after dropping a load of jumpers. The Fed was gonna' violate the guy until he explained that the last guy to jump was his CFI.
:rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 13, 2018, 02:40:54 PM
In an airplane, the inner ear and brain pan are dealing with three dimensions vs two while driving. More than likely, drivers are the victims of innattention or distraction.
Good point :aok Ok, then. It would be more like Dad driving in a down pour(talking about WIPERS ALL ON, ponding on road and 4 lanes of traffic(2 lanes under construction :eek:). Dad, was the type of driver that would hold off applying the breaks as long as he could, waiting to see if he would ACTUALLY have to stop or slow down...usually leading to a hard application of the brakes. Hold on to anything loose behind you :furious Now, in a down pour, with his NON defensive driving skills AND his propensity to drive TOO where he is looking..Pretty much as close as this could come to FLYING by Instruments :uhoh I was gritting my teeth so hard...Mashed potatoes and Biscuits hurt to chew for 3 days! :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
In the early 70s they were using T-33s here in Alaska for some tactical missions such as dropping off recon film. They were also equipped with sensors and would harass the modern tactical aircraft. Very common to see a T-33 in the pattern back then. Sadly on spun in on the turn to base one day with the loss of the crew.
That is sad. Too bad, because the T Bird is such and honest airplane. But, like any airplane, it’ll kill ya just as dead. The year before I went through T bird school at Tyndall, a couple of IPs took one out for a weekend cross country. One of the guy’s family was having a big family reunion the same weekend. On the cross country, they cancelled IFR, went VFR and descended down to the reunion loacation for a flyby. On the first pass the T bird pitched up and started an aileron roll. About half way through the nose buried and they crashed in front of the family reunion. The T-33 Dash 1 had a warning something to the effect of not doing rolling maneuvers with fuel in the tip tanks because the nose would pitch down.
In ground school, instructors used this example to emphasize the Dash 1 WARNING.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 13, 2018, 04:57:47 PM
Don Gentile killed himself in a T-bird. Ran out of gas—they think due to not being familiar with the fuel system or something. :(
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Oldman731 on September 13, 2018, 09:58:25 PM
On the cross country, they cancelled IFR, went VFR and descended down to the reunion loacation for a flyby. On the first pass the T bird pitched up and started an aileron roll. About half way through the nose buried and they crashed in front of the family reunion.
I'm reminded of Creighton Collins' "The Dangers of the Air," as contained in Langewiesche's classic "Stick and Rudder" (1944 version, for those who have it! Pages 328-329):
In many of these cases [of fatal accidents] there is an obvious element of exhibitionism. This element is so strong that the layman is likely to decide that pilots are a curious breed, one with a marked deficiency in common sense, for their fatal accidents seldom occur while the airplane is being put to any normal use.
From the pilot's standpoint, of course, it doesn't look that way. He thinks only in terms of flying technique. After all, isn't it often difficult to get a clean, sharp stall and a spin? Isn't it almost inconceivable that anyone could ever miss the pronounced warnings which every airplane gives in too slow flight? He very definitely does not see exhibitionism as a major hazard in flying, nor does he find it easy to believe the real story on flying hazards even after he is told. Why should it be easy for him to believe? He is already a pilot, well trained and with a Certificate of Competency. But that bears only on convention. Neither his textbooks nor his training have mentioned or brought out in practice the facts of life as to flying hazards, that is, as to what they really are, that is, as to the things that he is going to have to understand and guard against if he is to fly safely where innumerable others out of his same mold have not.
Flying releases something almost uncontrollable in the average pilot. Learning to fly the prescribed patterns in training, learning to make precision approaches and landings, learning coordination of stick and rudder in every detail, learning accuracy and to be ever the master of the machine - well and good; but, once on his own, there surges within a pilot a powerful impulse to break the bonds of every restraint that has followed him into the free air. He wants to throw away the music and to play, play as it has never been done before. He wants to give vent to all the suppressed feelings of his innermost self. That is his reaction to this new medium of expression in speed and infinite freedom of motion.
And that is why you soon find him, by the score, flying over to dive at and zoom above his home and spinning in; that is why you find him trying to climb as steeply as possible after a take-off and spinning in; that is why you find him pulling up into graceful climbing turns and spinning in; that is why you find him anxious to give his passengers a little thrill, a little taste of the wonders of free motion; that is why you find him circling low over his friends to wave and spinning in. Little does he realize that these situations bring on conditions of flight outside the pattern of what his training maneuvers have taught him. He does not know how many people mush into treetops in the pull-out from their dives, how many of them collide with wires, chimneys, trees, radio towers, guy wires, and countless other things they did not see in time in their low flying. He doesn't know how likely he is to kill that first rider to whom he is only trying to be a generous host. And above all, he hasn't the vaguest idea that in nearly 70 per cent of fatal accidents the airplane spun out of a turn, hit the ground with the motor running normally.
- oldman
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 13, 2018, 10:39:23 PM
The CAF lost their original P-40 this way. Pilot tried a slow roll with flaps out. Boom.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 10:46:45 PM
So, with onset of daylight and many hours flying formation and ARs ahead of us, fatigue was building. Several hours of formation flying and AR in the weather had taken its toll. We were each issued go pills for the flight and stop pills for after landing. By now, I had taken all of my go pills and drank most of the liquids stashed in my nest.
As the hours ticked by, I became more and more dog tired. My trusty WSO hadn’t taken any of his go pills and offered them up. Who was I to say no to such a generous offer? Once the sun was up in the east and out of our eyes the flying became somewhat more relaxed. The go pills were working well by now.
About half way across the Atlantic, two additional KC-10s accomplished an AR rendezvous with our gaggle to refuel our tankers. We moved our two 4 ships out a bit and let the big rigs go at it. That was quite an impressive sight. Four behemoths in close formation passing gas. Kind of like mating elephants; a big deal at high altitude.
With ten ARs behind us, we flew through the Straits of Gibraltor and across the Mediterranean in preparation for the eleventh and final AR before descending for approach and landing at Cairo West Air Base, Egypt. By now, I was very tired and dehydrated despite drinking all the liquids I carried and most of what my pitter offered up, and I now had the enormous need to pee. It was time to break out the piddle pack(s). These things were robust plastic bags with an absorbent sponge inside and a secure tie wrap at the business end. As the internal pressure was steadily building, I was debating with myself if I would be able to make the last hour plus or not. It was time to pull the trigger. First, the PP was unrolled and laid on one of the side consoles. Actually, two of them were placed in deployment mode. Next, the seat safety pin was installed. Then, the lap belly and shoulder harnesses were disconnected. Next, the G suit had to be repositioned so, the front full length flight suit zipper could be retracted upwards. You see were this is going don’t ya?
Well, while I’m doing all this, I obviously needed both hands for this complex operation. So, I gave the perfectly trimmed flight controls to my WSO. I recommended he hold the stick gently with one hand and steady his elbow on the knee to eliminate the Rhino’s characteristic pitch sensitivity. It worked for a few seconds and then a very slight PIO began. I reminded him to hold the stick gently and brace on his knee. The PIO kept getting more and more pronounced as we flew along side the tanker and the rest of our four ship started cycling on the tanker for the last time. When I finally got “plugged in” to the PP the flow just wasn’t happening due to 11+ hours being cramped, folded, pinched, etc. And, it was now our turn on the boom.
So, I left the PP hanging in position while we established the pre contact position behind the boom. Once stabilized, the boomer cleared us to the contact position. AR is basically formation flying behind a bigger aircraft and requires a certain amount of concentrated attention. When cleared to the contact position it was a matter of driving straight at the end of the boom so that it was coming to the center of the windscreen. A few feet from contacting the windshield, the boomer would fly the boom around and above the canopy and plug into the refueling receptacle on top of the fuselage behind the rear cockpit. When positive contact was made, a CONTACT light would illuminate on the front canopy bow. Then, it was just a matter of splItting the apple until the boomer confirmed the planned offload was complete. As I was concentrating on this process, a heavy, warm flow started. It felt so good that I subconsciously moaned over the intercom. My backseater was worried about what was wrong with the jet. I advised that golden flow was in progress. His response, “While we’re refueling?!” Yep! While the jet was on-loading, I was off loading. We completed our last AR, disconnected, and smoothly dropped down and back to clear the boom. We then re-established our position on the tanker’s wing for the short portion of the remaining distance to go and offloaded a second PP. Somewhere under an hour to go and it would be nap time. The rest was going to be easy. Yeah, right!
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 13, 2018, 11:01:11 PM
Good words Oldman.
A few years later, a couple of guys in a T bird decided to cancel IFR and fly down the gorge near Taos, NM. Everything was going well as they raced down the gorge below the rim. Since this was a spur of the moment idea, they weren’t aware of the cable stretched across their path. The cable passed over the nose and cleaned off everything flush with the top of the fuselage.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 13, 2018, 11:31:36 PM
Re: Your refueling adventure... :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 14, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
A few years later, a couple of guys in a T bird decided to cancel IFR and fly down the gorge near Taos, NM. Everything was going well as they raced down the gorge below the rim. Since this was a spur of the moment idea, they weren’t aware of the cable stretched across their path. The cable passed over the nose and cleaned off everything flush with the top of the fuselage.
:furious Quit using CODE speak!!! What is a T-Bird? I know...Look it up....I would rather here how you describe it :x
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 14, 2018, 01:23:33 AM
Longest leg I did in the B-17 was from Juneau to Spokane, a little over 6 hours. There were only 5 of us on the airplane. My wife was wearing her flight suit when we departed, after landing in Spokane I noticed she was in "civvies". It seems along the way she needed to relieve herself so back in the waist she dropped the flight suit down, positioned her ziplock back and took care of business. About that time either a bit of turbulence or a clumsy rudder bump by one of the pilots wagged the tail on the Fortress....Bobbi went over backward dumping the contents of the bag onto her chest. To this day she thinks I did that on purpose!!
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Oldman731 on September 14, 2018, 08:04:54 AM
:furious Quit using CODE speak!!! What is a T-Bird? I know...Look it up....I would rather here how you describe it :x
Since there are so many aviation experts in the forums, it’s natural to assume some level of knowledge. Please do ask questions. More than happy to provide more detail.
Crews often referred to the T-33 as the “T Bird”.
When the F-80 became operational, the prop fighter guys were having problems with the jet’s centrifical flow engine, especially in the traffic pattern. The centrifical flow engine had a unique characteristic. When the throttle was pushed forward, there was a delay in the engine thrust because of the spool up time, unlike what the high powered prop planes pilots of the time were used to. The result, a lot of accidents in the traffic pattern.
So, it was decided to make a trainer version of the F-80, the T-33. This was done by putting a 33 inch (if memory serves me well) extension in the fuselage and a duplicate cockpit/controls, except the rear cockpit had the much hated instrument flying hood, normally stowed behind the rear ejection seat. There were a set of bungee cords attached to the front center canopy bow of the rear cockpit and the rear canopy frame. These bungee cords were more commonly used by the rear cockpit guy to hold his head up on long cross country legs whilst taking a nap. It was matter of taking a couple of cords on each side and hooking them under the sides of the helmet. Whola! A neck stretcher. Never did get a kink in my neck.
Here’s a good view of the instrument flying hood or “Bag” and the bungee cords. (https://s33.postimg.cc/9yf7lm5nj/77_CC9296-8_BF6-44_E5-_B7_FE-572_B4935_D10_C.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) And no that ain’t me. This is me a couple of years ago.
The luminescent green strips are formation lights for additional visual reference at night.
Reminds me of a night bombing range mission. Led a two ship of F-4Es from Moody AFB to the Elgin AFB range complex in the panhandle of Florida. We each dropped six BDU-33 practice bombs. (https://s33.postimg.cc/6mv5h2467/627439_FE-9813-4626-9468-12_DFE6_CA2969.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) I pulled off the last pass and started a climbing left hand turn, watching #2 drop his last one and come off target. He called “no joy” for the rejoin. I described our visual position and he still couldn’t see us. So, I stroked both ABs to mid range and back out. Still no joy. Next, a full AB stroke and “no joy”. So, I turned the flares to the “ON” position and rippled off about a dozen. “There you are” #2 replied. We rejoined and RTBed to Moody.
The next day, the Valdosta newspaper ran a story about UFOs that were spotted over the Florida panhandle the night before, about the same time we were trying to rejoin.
So, with that in mind the next time we flew a night interceptor mission in the MOA (Military Operating Area) that had downtown Valdosta in the center of the airspace, liberal use of the flares was exercised. You guessed it. The next day, the paper reported several UFOs seen over Valdosta the night before. 😆
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: morfiend on September 14, 2018, 01:59:46 PM
I saw a T33 and an CF18 fly formation over my house last weekend,we have a restored one here and it's flight worthy. With the wing tanks it looks just like a P80 but dont you dare call it that as you will be corrected....wonder how I know that....... :noid
Ya Puma you had all the fun!!! :aok
:salute
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Mister Fork on September 14, 2018, 02:22:56 PM
<snip>So, with that in mind the next time we flew a night interceptor mission in the MOA (Military Operating Area) that had downtown Valdosta in the center of the airspace, liberal use of the flares was exercised. You guessed it. The next day, the paper reported several UFOs seen over Valdosta the night before. 😆
:rofl
Ahhh, so it was you that was pretending to be little green men?
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 14, 2018, 03:01:48 PM
I saw a T33 and an CF18 fly formation over my house last weekend,we have a restored one here and it's flight worthy. With the wing tanks it looks just like a P80 but dont you dare call it that as you will be corrected....wonder how I know that....... :noid
Ya Puma you had all the fun!!! :aok
:salute
The tanks are way different between the two.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 14, 2018, 03:21:38 PM
:rock Thanks for the non code update :rock I could pick your brain for hours! Colmbo's story....PRICELESS :rofl Wonder if she still brings it up during"DISCUSSIONS" most women I know would :rofl So the extension was for adding a "Back seater" ...noticed before you were commenting on "Taxiing from back seat and couldnt see where you were going"..so assume the Trainee was in the back...assumption based on the location of THE HOOD. The bungee cord thing was great! I need to see about getting something like that for next road trip...with Dad Driving :x Not that I would get any sleep...but would cut down on Neck fatigue...the late application of brakes, full burner on green lights...and swerving due to Rubber Necking....My teeth may still get sore..but a mouth guard may help that! :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2018, 04:53:35 PM
:rock Thanks for the non code update :rock I could pick your brain for hours! Colmbo's story....PRICELESS :rofl Wonder if she still brings it up during"DISCUSSIONS" most women I know would :rofl So the extension was for adding a "Back seater" ...noticed before you were commenting on "Taxiing from back seat and couldn't see where you were going"..so assume the Trainee was in the back...assumption based on the location of THE HOOD. The bungee cord thing was great! I need to see about getting something like that for next road trip...with Dad Driving :x Not that I would get any sleep...but would cut down on Neck fatigue...the late application of brakes, full burner on green lights...and swerving due to Rubber Necking....My teeth may still get sore..but a mouth guard may help that! :rofl
You may be referring to a discussion about a different aircraft re difficulty seeing forward during taxi, possibly the Mustang.
The T Bird was reasonably easy to see out of from the back seat. For initial checkout, the trainee would sit in the front with the IP (instructor pilot) in the back. Instrument training sorties and instrument check-rides would be flown from the back seat under the dreaded bag.
Feel free to pick away. :aok
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2018, 05:17:07 PM
I saw a T33 and an CF18 fly formation over my house last weekend,we have a restored one here and it's flight worthy. With the wing tanks it looks just like a P80 but dont you dare call it that as you will be corrected....wonder how I know that....... :noid
Ya Puma you had all the fun!!! :aok
:salute
We did this a lot after interceptor missions when our squadron T Bird guys would harass the Six guys with the chaff and ECM Pods on the T-33s.
After arriving at my Six unit flying was kinda sparse for this new kid on the block. Since it was less than six months since I had flown the T Bird, I asked my OPs officer if dual qualification was ok with him. The ADCOM (Air Defense Command) regulations allowed dual qualification AND a local requal in the T Bird with less than six months since the last flight. I jumped all over that and became dual qualified in the F-106 and the T-33. It was pilot heaven! And I was flying one of the two every day. Some days twice. Some days a sortie in each. Those were the days!
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2018, 05:18:17 PM
Ahhh, so it was you that was pretending to be little green men?
Hmmmmm, could be. :D
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 15, 2018, 01:16:14 AM
So "Your 6 unit", where was this...and what was a sortie. :uhoh I know WHAT it is, but what did you do I guess. What would you consider the ULTIMATE experience you had ,flying.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 15, 2018, 08:07:48 AM
So "Your 6 unit", where was this...and what was a sortie. :uhoh I know WHAT it is, but what did you do I guess. What would you consider the ULTIMATE experience you had ,flying.
5th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) Spitten Kittens @ Minot AFB, ND. A typical local sortie in the Six was out to the northwest in our working airspace for practice intercepts. Usually in a two ship, sometimes 3 or 4. A TBird was launched out head and to provide a chaff and ECM emitting target to run intercepts against. If a TBird wasn't available the Six’s would, as it was called, bump heads. Typical sortie length was around 2.5 hours, sometimes longer. During our quarterly Air Defense Exercises, we would fly two sorties, and have the option for a third. I did a third one night and was RTB from several hundred miles north in Canada when the sun started coming up. Since the exercise started about 2200 local, my body clock went into instant rebellion. Never did a third sortie again.
Ultimate experience? I’ll have to ponder on that and get back to you. The F-106 Delta Dart was commonly referred to as the Ultimate Interceptor though.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 15, 2018, 05:24:58 PM
So, the 11th and last AR is complete and the tankers turn us to a heading for our last leg into Cairo West AB. We are anticipating a quick descent and slinging two four ships of Rhinos up initial just before sunset. The tankers get the current weather report. The winds are out of the northwest, gusting over 20 knots, and the visibility is a mile with blowing sand. The single runway at Cairo West is oriented northwest/southeast and we are approaching from the northwest. We now have to fly past the field in order to land into the wind. No cool arrival for us. It’s instrument approaches for the eight of us.
As I remember, we had jets spread out for 30 miles southeast of the field on the radar downwind for spacing on the instrument approach. It was a rough ride flying the approach with decreasing daylight to a strange field. We had been briefed on the runway and field facilities. As we reached short final it was obvious that the briefed down slope to an upslope runway was more of a bowl. Basically, a runway built between two big sand dunes. We touched down in the normal zone (1,000 ft past the approach end), popped the bag (drag chute) and rolled down hill, through the bottom, and up the other side. As we crested the far end hill, I became concerned about running out of runway. There was no more visible. So, I got on the binders (brakes). On top of the crest, there was another thousand feet or more available resulting in a breath of relief. It was now time to park this thing and go to sleep. We taxied the gaggle to a parking ramp, shut down, and opened the canopies. Wham! The temperature was 120 degrees F at 1800 local time with sun setting. It felt like being behind a jet exhaust.
With seats safety pinned, we gathered up the remains of our nests and climbed down the crew ladders. Neither of us could stand up straight. We'd been strapped in for nearly 13 hours and were severely cramped. At least one of us didn’t have to pee. Total flight time was 12.6 hours.
We were to live in large tents. More gaggle experience but, could not wait to settle in for a nap. Oh not so fast moose breath! You all have to in process. We spent the next FIVE HOURS, in the dark, wandering from one shoe clerk line to another before being dropped off at our new home for the next 10 days.
The next day.......
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 15, 2018, 06:15:59 PM
Rhino...as in F-4 Phantom? That was the FIRST love of my life...around 5yso :x Also my first Model, F-5 was second favorite. Eh, who am I kidding...never saw one I DIDNT love :x
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 15, 2018, 06:30:12 PM
Rhino...as in F-4 Phantom? That was the FIRST love of my life...around 5yso :x Also my first Model, F-5 was second favorite. Eh, who am I kidding...never saw one I DIDNT love :x
Yes. Viewed from a side profile with a little imagination, a rhino can be visualized. A common term used by crews because it was such a beast.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 16, 2018, 01:27:40 AM
:aok Yes...I fell in love with a RHINO! I think I still have that particular Model. I will look and see,pretty sure I kept it! Think I was 9 or 10 when I put it together? Been into AirPlanes since birth. Would lay out in the grass and watch planes ALL DAY. We were just outside of Knoxville's MCgee Tyson Airport. They had an ANG group there..but i wasnt picky..if it had wings I wanted one. Here where I live now,Chattanooga,Tn, we were in the, cant remember ACTUAL term, but with in the Super Sonic Test area? We had the F-22 Vipers come over the house several times a week! They were higher of coarse, but DAMN I loved hearing that BOOM :x The worst sunburn I ever got...yep AN AIR SHOW Only thing that wasnt burned...back of my neck :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 16, 2018, 08:34:39 AM
We lived in Wichita, KS from '62 until '66. B-52s, KC-135s, KC-97s, 100 series fighters. So many times driving across Kansas and on the horizon you'd see this dark smudge which would grow into a low level B-52 on what were then called Oil Burner routes, later called Olive Branch routes. :)
Then one Sunday morning a KC-135 went down right after takeoff into a residential area, IIRC 34 dead.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Oldman731 on September 16, 2018, 08:43:53 AM
:aok Yes...I fell in love with a RHINO! I think I still have that particular Model. I will look and see,pretty sure I kept it! Think I was 9 or 10 when I put it together? Been into AirPlanes since birth. Would lay out in the grass and watch planes ALL DAY. We were just outside of Knoxville's MCgee Tyson Airport. They had an ANG group there..but i wasn't picky..if it had wings I wanted one. Here where I live now,Chattanooga,Tn, we were in the, cant remember ACTUAL term, but with in the Super Sonic Test area? We had the F-22 Vipers come over the house several times a week! They were higher of coarse, but DAMN I loved hearing that BOOM :x The worst sunburn I ever got...yep AN AIR SHOW Only thing that wasn't burned...back of my neck :rofl
To the best of my knowledge, there's no supersonic test airspace in existence. Most likely, there is airspace nearby that has no supersonic flight restrictions, a rare thing in modern times. As a kid, growing up near Holloman AFB, NM, I heard numerous sonic booms a day and was thrilled by them. Found my passion for the Phantom one day walking alone the two blocks to school in the first grade. A flight of four buzzed our neighborhood at low altitude. That was my first conscious thought at six years old of “I'm going to do that”. At age 31, after three years in the T-33 and surviving three North Dakota winters in the F-106, flew my first training sortie in the F-4D at Homestead AFB, FL. The love affair was complete.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 17, 2018, 10:47:51 AM
From '66 until '69 my folks owned a resort about 1 mile downstream from Beaver Dam in NW Arkansas. It was quite common for Phantoms to be driving around at low level, the local thought is they were "from that training base in Oklahoma" and were "practice bombing the dam". One day I hear a jet and run outside just in time to see a F-4 in a hard right turn over our store, the back seater with his cherry red helmet was looking right at me as they screamed by. Awesome!! On my than one occasion we were buzzed by Phantoms as we water skied on the lake....a Phantom coming up behind you can spoil you form!!
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 17, 2018, 11:17:38 AM
I remember "waving down" an F-4K/M from the RAF once while standing atop Enchanted Rock with a bunch of my cabin mates from Summer Camp. Everyone thought I was nuts. He went by below the crest of the ridge with the back seater waving at us. A friend took a photo of it as he was wing wagging--full on belly shot. Gorgeous.
I was a hero for a few days after that.
:D
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 17, 2018, 11:39:43 AM
From '66 until '69 my folks owned a resort about 1 mile downstream from Beaver Dam in NW Arkansas. It was quite common for Phantoms to be driving around at low level, the local thought is they were "from that training base in Oklahoma" and were "practice bombing the dam". One day I hear a jet and run outside just in time to see a F-4 in a hard right turn over our store, the back seater with his cherry red helmet was looking right at me as they screamed by. Awesome!! On my than one occasion we were buzzed by Phantoms as we water skied on the lake....a Phantom coming up behind you can spoil you form!!
Very cool! Yeah, when it was nearing transonic at low level, sneaking up on someone was easy. When the sound arrived, it was deafening.
One day during the Bright Star Combined Force exercise, we were watching the huge gaggle of jets do a mock airfield attack (read mega airshow here) before coming up initial and landing. The stream of Air Force, Navy, Marine, and always last, Egyptian fighters stretched out for several miles because everyone was in a quasi tactical formation at cough, cough 500’ agl. We watched from atop an earthen berm built up around the power generators in our tent city. It was a great airshow as everyone passed by below our vantage point and did some sort of individualized hyaka pull up and performance demo. At the end of the trail, we see three Egyptian F-4s. A two ship in tactical spread with the third about two miles in trail. Since they didn't have the smokeless engine mod, they were very easy to see far away against the sand. Up to this point everyone came by at a barely subsonic speed. As the third Egyptian Phantom came by, we wondered what happened to the fourth guy. As we searched in the distance, this low level black dot appeared with the characteristic pair of black smoke and cinder trails. As he got nearer, the smoke trails disappeared. He had gone to full AB and was trying to catch up. As there was no discernible noise, I yelled “cover your ears”. As he approached closer at a 100’ or so, the shock wave was visible in the sand. When it came through tent city, all the tent flaps went vertical. There was an instant of quiet when he passed, then the sonic boom, and rumble as he headed down range, still trying to catch up.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on September 17, 2018, 10:30:54 PM
To the best of my knowledge, there's no supersonic test airspace in existence. Most likely, there is airspace nearby that has no supersonic flight restrictions, a rare thing in modern times. As a kid, growing up near Holloman AFB, NM, I heard numerous sonic booms a day and was thrilled by them. Found my passion for the Phantom one day walking alone the two blocks to school in the first grade. A flight of four buzzed our neighborhood at low altitude. That was my first conscious thought at six years old of “I'm going to do that”. At age 31, after three years in the T-33 and surviving three North Dakota winters in the F-106, flew my first training sortie in the F-4D at Homestead AFB, FL. The love affair was complete.
Yes, could have been it....they were testing F22, and breaking the sound barrier,so...you know me and CODE speak.. Either way...they were Booming! They got too many complaints, as the region was really growing up(populations). They ended it in 2008 or so. Was sort of in fly way from Knoxville,Tn south to Atlanta,Ga.Just West of mountains(Smokeys and Cherokee Natn. Forrest. :uhoh Yep...I was same way..only the knees werent on same wave length...bastages :furious Most fun being stuck in traffic....Atlanta, durring severe Thunder Storms! Well after actually, they must have been WAY behind? Had 2 hours of absolute NON STOP take offs, and were stuck right under the flight paths :banana: Not as sexy as an F-4...but they were Air Planes :x Like 50 in an hour..I quit counting at 35 :aok
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: colmbo on September 18, 2018, 12:42:27 AM
I think it was 2015. Bobbi and I were in our sailboat about 80 miles or so southwest of Seward, AK anchorage in Tonsina Bay. We start hearing some rumbles that build in intensity and realize it was fighters having fun. They had one of the big international war game things going and we were near the edge of the MOA. Lots of booms!!
We were in that same bay and experienced an earthquake. It was impressive, it was a 6.X about 70 miles or so from us. From below in the boat it was an omnipresent rumble surrounding the boat. At first I though we were dragging anchor but realized there was no wind or current. Next thought was TSUNAMI!!! We were at the head of a narrow, shallow bay about 1.5 miles from deep water. Flipped the SSB on and no mention of tsunami warning so elected to stay put.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 20, 2018, 09:29:58 AM
A high subsonic or faster sneak attack goes something like this:
Still hilarious no matter how many times I see it. :rofl
Spitfire was LOW...maybe TOO low! Of coarse I am just splitting hairs :devil, how Low is TOO LOW? I guess when its so low you are scared into ANOTHER profession? Went from Journalist to Prostitute in 3 seconds :neener:
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 20, 2018, 02:39:43 PM
Spitfire was LOW...maybe TOO low! Of coarse I am just splitting hairs :devil, how Low is TOO LOW? I guess when its so low you are scared into ANOTHER profession? Went from Journalist to Prostitute in 3 seconds :neener:
You should see a couple of those passes in that link I posted. We are talking a drop tank possibly nicking the grass definition of low in one of them. It was that close.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on September 20, 2018, 04:57:43 PM
It’s too low when unintended contact is made. :uhoh
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Vraciu on September 20, 2018, 05:06:05 PM
My first airshow ('72-ish) was when the Thunderbirds were still flying the F-4. They loved doing this maneuver from behind the crowd. I was never so happy to fall off the roof of the car! :grin:
I've been to lots of airshows over the years, but I'll never forget that one. I think we were stationed at Anderson AFB (Guam) at the time.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on October 08, 2018, 05:13:16 PM
Haven’t seen the T bird show in awhile but, I believe the Blue Angels still the sneak pass.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 09, 2018, 01:14:15 AM
Hard to believe that video is over twenty years old now. SMH.
Variations of this one exist but they usually have music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1JSFqImfdg
SWEET! I was able to catch sight of 2 F22's playing with each other in 2015 at Death Valley! They were pretty high but close enough to see every move. Best 2 hour EVER! They even refueled twice. That was before what I know now. For some reason...an IDIOT who shall remain un-named, DID NOT know about Star Wars Loop being IN DEATH VALLEY. What a handsomehunk lol Guess where I will be next February!!!!! Is it wrong that I have a woody right now? Who needs Viagra...just watch this video :rofl
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on October 16, 2018, 11:09:04 AM
Ran across this photo yesterday. A great representation of the “Ole Smokey” nickname the Phantom carried until the smokeless engines came along, as was discussed earlier.
Not uncommon to spot a Phantom 50+ miles away, especially against a clear blue sky.
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 16, 2018, 01:56:47 PM
GOOD thing they were fast,I guess? :uhoh LOOKY...here I is :uhoh Sort of like Black Powder to Gun Cotton/Smokeless. What did they use Diesel :eek: This was only at higher throttle setting s? :uhoh
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Puma44 on October 16, 2018, 02:57:45 PM
GOOD thing they were fast,I guess? :uhoh LOOKY...here I is :uhoh Sort of like Black Powder to Gun Cotton/Smokeless. What did they use Diesel :eek: This was only at higher throttle setting s? :uhoh
More throttle, more smoke and cinders. JP-4 was the primary fuel. JP-8 was an alternate as I recall. It does look like a diesel doesn’t it?
Title: Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
Post by: Mister Fork on October 16, 2018, 08:12:32 PM
But, does your F-350 have twice pipes and spit cinders in the eyes of those following you? :rofl
Here is a funny! I was driving my parents Suburban with the 7.2 liter diesel and came upon a cyclist, trying to go up a local Mountain road. HAMMER DOWN and let her ROLL! All you could see was her Dismounted,stopped and bending over to breathe! I know...ARSE HAT-ISH....was ALL fun...till first day Senior year :uhoh Guess who the NEW Chemistry teacher was :rofl Not sure what was more awkward...the fact that she knew it was me(dang kiss butts :furious ) or watching ALL the "Jocks" flirting with her(one of which was laughing from back seat when it went down and ratted me out)...She was very young and looked like an upper classman! :rofl It worked out pretty sweet....She told me when her next "TEAM" event up the Mountain was going to take place...and asked if I could pay them a visit..seems she had a issue with the team lead :rofl HECK YEAH...I did it! :x