Puma, what can you elaborate on regarding the j79 engines? I've been re reading Mark Berent's books which go into great detail his and his character's F4 Phantom time in Vietnam, and some other books and sources I've read recently too really talk up the J79 as one of the great fighter engines of our lifetime. Some of the RCAF pilots I've spoken to about the F104 said it was one of the few parts of the 104 that was great.
How do you compare the F4 models that flew in Vietnam vs the Mig 17, 19, and especially the 21 back then?
The first thing about the J79 is that it is an indestructible brute. Pushing the throttles up and they both delivered instantly. The engines could be at idle in the middle of a dogfight and deliver full AB power as fast as the pilot could push them forward to the stops. I personally have never had one cough or hesitate, nor have I ever heard of one doing it. It was amazing to have that range of power available without hesitation. Early J79s had a characteristic thick smoke trail that could be easily be seen 50 miles or farther against a clear sky. A technique used when entering an engagement would be to drill straight at an opponent and at the desired time go into min AB which pretty much eliminated the smoke trails. At this point the Rhino pilots would action out of plane to hopefully make the opponent lose the visual. One of the nicknames for the F-4 was “Ole Smokey”. The joke among F-4 pilots was when an opponent was trapped at six, deselect AB and blow smoke and cinders in his eyes. In later years, the F-4s were equipped with “smokeless” J79s. This started during my second tour. In the midst of the conversion, it was not uncommon the see an F-4 coming up initial with a smoker and smokeless installed. The contrast was stunning. It appeared as the jet had one engine shutdown since the new engines where virtually smokeless.
I entered the USAF at the end of Vietnam and didn’t see combat there. When the F-4 was being developed, the powers to be decided it didn’t need an internal gun because it would be equipped with long range radar misseles that could reach out and touch someone BVR (beyond visual range). Two problems with that theory. One was ROE requiring VID before launch. With the small size of the MIGs, it was difficult to get a VID before the MIG was inside the F pole for the radar missles. A late VID would cause the Phantom pilots to maneuver for a possible IR shot. This could be difficult to do because of the second problem. The MIGS turned much tighter than the Phantom causing a turning fight which could prove deadly without a gun in the Phantom. Inside the F pole for the missles left the gunless Phantoms at risk. As a side note, we flew against Egyptian Fishbeds one day and simply could not see them in the hazy Egyptian sky. When GCI called them 2 miles at six, we stroked the J79s and extended away from the Migs. With short fuel range, they broke off. The old head Vietnam Vets I trained with always said to not get in the phone booth with a MIG but, to shoot them in the lips with the Sparrow, then the Sidewinder, then a snap shot with the gun and blow through while maintaining high speed. Of course there always exceptions to the rule and some Rhino drivers were able to defy the odds and get MIG kills.
To help alleviate these problems, the F-4E was developed with an internal 20mm Vulcan cannon with a firing rate of 6,000 rounds per minute and leading edge slats. Phantom pilots planned on three 2 second bursts before expending the available internal gun load. We routinely strafed practice ground targets and airborne towed targets. The gun was my favorite. The growl and vibration in the nose and rudder pedals was exhilarating. Pretty much worth a woody every time.
The leading edge slats allowed Phantom pilots to do high AOA rolling maneuvers with the ailerons in addition to the rudder. In previous hard wing Phantoms, pilots had to do high AOA rolling maneuvers with rudder alone. Use of aileron would cause the jet to depart and enter Mr Toad’s Wild Ride. So, the E model had much improved maneuvering performance. (Reminds me of a story for later about a flight examiner’s High AOA demo turned into an out of control recovery).
The E model was an amazing jet. My first assignment in it was in an air to air squadron in the ROK. After gaining proficiency, it was common to get in the phone booth in the vertical ending up with no airspeed indication and be in complete control of the jet beyond the edge of the envelope.
So many memories and great stories.........
Hope I’ve answered your questions.
