Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bozon on September 19, 2018, 03:24:14 PM
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We all heard that most new players don't even last the free trial. I can understand this - they log in, look at the map, don't understand what is going on, what they need to do or should do to "help their team". If they fly to a target field and don't get slaughtered on the way, they do not know what to hit and why it is not destroyed when they drop a 500 lbs bomb on it.
What we are missing is the equivalent of a pick up group (PUG) of other games. This function used to be filled (sort of...) by what we now call "pickup missions" - and they are extinct. In a community of veterans, those who wish to organize anything do it within their squadron, or not at all. A new player is left out of this action. Pickup missions are a great opportunity for a new player to fly in a group (so they do not get slaughtered right away), have a purpose, be guided to the purpose by the mission leader, and most of all - get free social intercation, so the AH experience is not so lonely anymore.
We need a strong incentive for missions driven gameplay and the structure to make it inviting to the new player. Long long time ago, I proposed something in that spirit
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,256300.msg3168700.html#msg3168700
I think HTC should reconsider something along these lines in order to bring back pickup missions for the sake of new player retention. The key aspects I think are:
1. A scoring system for mission leaders - score based on mission outcome. Hype this, reward the tour leader, put their names in gold and award them with HTC merchandise (or a free month ...gasp...). These are the ones that create the experience for the other players.
2. A system for creating missions with objectives - We have a mission planner that sort of works, that is a start. The mission should include a declared objective (attack a field, attack a factory, capture a field, fighter sweep). The score for the leader will be counted only on mission objectives (target field objects destroyed, factory damage inflicted, field captured by a mission participant, planes shot down).
3. A system for auto-creation of counter missions - This one is completely optional, but I think it is good gameplay. Milkruns are bad, and attacking meaningless and easy to reach targets for score is bad gameplay. We WANT the forces to collide and this is why we plan scenarios the way we do. A mission that is launched should create a scramble mission on the other side (giving a proper head start to the attackers). The number of participants in scramble should be limited by the number of participants in the attack mission. This of course does not prevent anyone from taking off without a mission and defending like they do now, just like it does not prevent anyone from taking off within being a member of the attack mission and fly with it - just like they can do now. The counter mission is a good way to measure the difficulty, so give the leader score a bonus if there were many opposing players in the counter mission.
4. Recruiting participants - Once a mission is posted, anyone who likes to be notified can get a small flashing messege at the corner saying "mission available" or something like that (default on for noobs). Heck, that "base under attack" meaningless voice message can be turned in "scramble scramble!" call for paricipation in a counter mission. Make the "pickup mission" option in the menu flash. When you join, ask whether to tune your vox to the mission channel so noob do not have to do anything to set up. To prevent abuse for leader scores, require a mission to have at least 4 participants in order to launch.
5. Scoring for participants - to attract them, create a scoring system for mission participants (perk bonus also?). You get a score for mission objectives or shooting down the scramble mission planes (or the attacking planes for the scramble mission). Only partial score for destroying other targets.
There's a lot more that can be said and the basic idea can be developed far far more (see the link above for example) and even include things like system generated missions and AI, but this is the jist of it. The main point is that aside from the scores, there is very little that needs to be added to the game to make this happen. This does not affect any flight or graphics or core game mechanics. The whole thing runs parallel to the free sandbox of the main arena. No one is forced to start missions and no one has to participate. If you ignore the missions system, the whole thing will look like a normal rare organized attack on a field and you can takeoff with any plane from any field to assist or counter it.
The PUG-like aspect is really important and I think it is missing from this game.
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The mission planning tool available today is not a great tool. AH and AH 2, had a good mission planning tool and I believe that was why so many missions were posted. The 113th Lucky Strikes Posted hundreds of missions over the last twenty years. But found the population less receptive and unwilling to fly in a mission where one was expected to work as a team and we finally stopped posting public missions about four or five years ago. Depending on Squad members only to do the job. I doubt that HTC will invest to improve the planning tool at this stage of the game.
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Sadly it is today's society that is the issue. If anyone gets a gold star or a popsicle then all the others will want their gold star and popsicle or it is not fair.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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The mission planning tool available today is not a great tool. AH and AH 2, had a good mission planning tool and I believe that was why so many missions were posted. The 113th Lucky Strikes Posted hundreds of missions over the last twenty years. But found the population less receptive and unwilling to fly in a mission where one was expected to work as a team and we finally stopped posting public missions about four or five years ago. Depending on Squad members only to do the job. I doubt that HTC will invest to improve the planning tool at this stage of the game.
I personally found their mission had too much mission to it. We had to counter it by developing missions where large groups of torpedo planes attacked far reaching towns.
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Pickup missions are a great opportunity for a new player to fly in a group (so they do not get slaughtered right away), have a purpose, be guided to the purpose by the mission leader, and most of all - get free social intercation, so the AH experience is not so lonely anymore.
This makes good sense. I wonder if, in the absence of human leaders willing to organize such missions, it might be possible to have some sort of canned mission that would supply the new player with his plane, his target, and some sort of guidance on how to get there and what to do when he does.
- oldman
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This makes good sense. I wonder if, in the absence of human leaders willing to organize such missions, it might be possible to have some sort of canned mission that would supply the new player with his plane, his target, and some sort of guidance on how to get there and what to do when he does.
- oldman
The Ai could be called Chef Boyardee
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In my personal opinion if AH embraced the battle royal style of gameplay that’s so popular now a days it would do really well. I used to love this game, playing hours upon hours per tour at one point, but the lack of matchmaking really hurts gameplay. Even if it was just a list of groups of people who were on and looking for 1v1s, or even people to fly with it would be better than nothing. This game is set up perfect for BR style combat, especially with the air spawns that were add before I left. Imagine everyone spawning at a random location with the circle getting smaller and smaller forcing everyone to fight it out, that would be amazing. PUBG style AH3 would be a game changer.
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The orange help channel doesn't seem to get a lot of newbie help conversations. Anonymous MODs have been a part of the game forever. Recruit MA Help who sit on a channel and that channel is on the clip board for new players or anyone really needing help to contact a live person for personal direct help. Abuse of them by bored vets can receive severe MOD attention just like challenging the MOD's on text.
Our game is an outside or inside community. New people who speak up and text quickly because they want to communicate, become part of the inside community and get involved with the organic initiative flows becasue they become part of the community banter. The ones who don't want to communicate for what ever reasons will feel alone and not part of the community. This game is easy if you are part of the inside community. Our numbers and initiatives are more of a Dunbar's Number equation ruled community. We have so few players, it's natural for organic initiatives to be the missions. Since everyone part of the inside community is in touch with the current wide country banter. Inside community members ask where the next target is which organically starts up the next initiative because they know each other and setting up missions wastes their play time.
When you have more than 75 players in a country, then missions become practical becasue not everyone will know each other. Today with 120 total being a good prime time night in the MA across three countries. We all know each other, and know by being insiders what to ask, or how to read and listen to country to follow the next attack. We mission up organically which leaves new people outside not knowing. A dedicated person or people on a help channel would bring the new player closer to being in the inside community, while feeling the game has a mechanism to address their needs.
Otherwise if a new person dosen't want to communicate, they probably don't want to stay with this game. Then no amount of hand holding and videos for 5th graders will help keep them.
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Bustr is correct and this is why mission posting and leading needs to be incentivised. If we turn it into a challenge, or someones goal to be 1st ranking leader and have his name in lights, some players will adopt this style and willingly create game content (missions) for HTC.
For the purpose of scores bases are not even need to be captured - you launch an attack mission to hit a base and a scramble mission is launched against you, and BAM you get meaningful gameplay even without any intention to capture. The mission results can affect the capturing of the base outside of the mission. The mission scale can be small (4vs4) so the system can work even with a low population, or have multiple missions in parallel.
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Yall seem to put a lot of importance into missions.
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I do miss those days with Rolling Thunder. Falcon23 would put together these missions that both captured bases and let the red guys do some killing as well. Fun for sure. Same with the swampdragons.
I think it would be a wise community investment to set up a buddy system for new players. The learning curve in AH is so much steeper then really any other MMO. I say that just from a control point of view as most FPS are set up differently.
Wish I could still play, love the game.
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Yall seem to put a lot of importance into missions.
Missions are the pick up groups of AH. Without pick up groups, any mmo for the new player is just like a stand alone game with human like AI. Missions are the best way to introduce a new player into the game. It does not require much of him to enter the mission and he immediately gets some social interaction - a key aspect of AH to keep players in the game. These PUG/missions are where he meets other players, meet familiar names from previous sessions, and perhaps find some guys he likes enough to join their squadron. In the mean time he gets free tutorial of the game on-job-training style.
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Any player in tower at time of Pickup Mission posting should receive the ".join" popup with mission name and time to launch.
Players have to make a choice, is my time better spent climbing/heading towards a fight or "waiting" for a mission to launch.
It's just sad really, Missions are what "hooked" me to this game... Heck, id even join some of the longer bomber runs if they'd let it be known they're outbound.
Group involvment is the core of this game.
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Any player in tower at time of Pickup Mission posting should receive the ".join" popup with mission name and time to launch.
This would be imperative as anyone who is unwilling to take the time to read any basic instructions is unlikely to know how to join a mission.
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This would be imperative as anyone who is unwilling to take the time to read any basic instructions is unlikely to know how to join a mission.
That's just it, basic instructions do not exist for this game. Nested instructions are old and dated, but that is being discussed in another thread. Back in the day when we all started gaming we were on the forefront of online gaming and it was expected, at the time, for the player to hunt down manuals, help via communities (official and non-official).
In today's game market it's perfectly reasonable for a new stick to log in to the game and expect that the "basic" information needed will be presented in a neat and orderly fashion. Nowadays, if I install a new game and it requires me to go to a website, youtube channel, blog etc.. just to learn how to start the game, I will uninstall it. It's a waste of my time to search the interwebs for what should be presented from the get go.
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oops hit the wrong button... my bad
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Sadly it is today's society that is the issue. If anyone gets a gold star or a popsicle then all the others will want their gold star and popsicle or it is not fair.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
+1
I posted a mission 2-3 days ago just to see if Istill remembered how to do it... only 1 other joined :bhead
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That's just it, basic instructions do not exist for this game. Nested instructions are old and dated, but that is being discussed in another thread. Back in the day when we all started gaming we were on the forefront of online gaming and it was expected, at the time, for the player to hunt down manuals, help via communities (official and non-official).
In today's game market it's perfectly reasonable for a new stick to log in to the game and expect that the "basic" information needed will be presented in a neat and orderly fashion. Nowadays, if I install a new game and it requires me to go to a website, youtube channel, blog etc.. just to learn how to start the game, I will uninstall it. It's a waste of my time to search the interwebs for what should be presented from the get go.
There you go, succinct and to the point.
A short time a go the powers that be were looking for folks to write training sections. It may have been for wiki.... not sure on that.
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+1
I posted a mission 2-3 days ago just to see if Istill remembered how to do it... only 1 other joined :bhead
...who wants to do a mishun when you can't NOE properly at 65 bloody feet above the ground?
:bolt:
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There you go, succinct and to the point.
A short time a go the powers that be were looking for folks to write training sections. It may have been for wiki.... not sure on that.
In-game tutorial is what is needed. Period. Exclamation point. #ingametutorial. Ellipses. Yellow highlight. Bold. Large font.
Wiley.
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That's just it, basic instructions do not exist for this game. Nested instructions are old and dated, but that is being discussed in another thread. Back in the day when we all started gaming we were on the forefront of online gaming and it was expected, at the time, for the player to hunt down manuals, help via communities (official and non-official).
In today's game market it's perfectly reasonable for a new stick to log in to the game and expect that the "basic" information needed will be presented in a neat and orderly fashion. Nowadays, if I install a new game and it requires me to go to a website, youtube channel, blog etc.. just to learn how to start the game, I will uninstall it. It's a waste of my time to search the interwebs for what should be presented from the get go.
so true
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...who wants to do a mishun when you can't NOE properly at 65 bloody feet above the ground?
:bolt:
Someone who wants their mishun to be something other than an undefended smash and grab?
Wiley.
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In-game tutorial is what is needed. Period. Exclamation point. #ingametutorial. Ellipses. Yellow highlight. Bold. Large font.
Wiley.
OK that is funny right there..... :cheers:
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I posted a mission 2-3 days ago just to see if Istill remembered how to do it... only 1 other joined :bhead
Exactly my point why pickup missions died - why would anyone join a mission in the current system?
The noobs will not even understand what you are talking about and what they need to do. The veterans like myself don't give a damn about your mission - I just look at the largest red bar and take off in that direction. THERE ARE NO INCENTIVES AND THE SYSTEM IS UNWELCOMING AND UNFRIENDLY.
Score and rewards for tour leaders are something that enough players will be interested in. This is why I suggested mission-leaders score and players scores that are gained only through the mission, and actual real rewards from HTC to the tour leaders.
The fact that a mission has been posted should be VERY clear to anyone potentially interested and the leader does not need to start shouting in country channel like a fishmonger. Joining must be stupid easy, incl. tuning to the proper channels. The target crowd are newer player and squad-less players. Squadrons too may be interested to be score leaders as a squadron, or run one of their members to the top mission-leader title by him posting and they playing his missions.
...who wants to do a mishun when you can't NOE properly at 65 bloody feet above the ground?
:bolt:
Humor. I read about it.
Sneak missions are bad. This is why I suggest that the mission leader calls out the target in planning stage and that a scramble mission is created. You can fake and fade and sneak on your way in, but the opponents know that you are coming. This is how we design scenarios and special events - the opposing forces are meant to collide, it is just a question of whether the attackers manage to sneak through & drop the bombs first and fight their way out, or fight their way in through the defenders.
...and forget about the 20 P-38 +goon missions of old. What we are talking about can be 4-5 players going to bomb the hangars in a field, or 2B17s+2P51s escorts to drop some bombs on a factory. Capture does not have to be a goal at all, so the leader does not have to recruit 15 players. Capture is just a goal that is worth a lot of points if you declare it in the mission beforehand - and achieve it.
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I would like to see a ground mission that follows a proper air mission that spans three or four targets (1 port, 1 AF, 1 VB IE...). that would be fun and something the MA hasn't witnessed in a very long time.
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Sneak missions are bad. This is why I suggest that the mission leader calls out the target in planning stage and that a scramble mission is created.
Players who choose their own way can attack unannounced, and for missions intended to be filled with noobs there is guaranteed opposition? Practically, that reduces the chances of success to zero, unless the announcement is only available to other noobs. It's just a system that feeds noobs to what bustr calls sharks.
Running missions with human leaders is also a bad idea. People who like to communicate will do so with or without missions. Players who don't won't naturally gravitate towards such missions. Personal failure is guaranteed, which is embarrassing enough. Being watched is going to make it worse.
No forced opposition and fully automized it might work.
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PS: The purpose of PUGs is to connect players with the same plan, without having to rely on their own friends list. With a large number of players personal failure might not matter (you'll never meet again), which is not the case in here.
What's missing is quests. That allow to play at the players own pace. Where failure doesn't matter, only success is counted. Where the computer guides through the game. Something that provides a sense of a purpose.
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...who wants to do a mishun when you can't NOE properly at 65 bloody feet above the ground?
:bolt:
:uhoh To MY knowledge, NOE is exactly the same as in AH2. Once "LOCAL" radar is down, NOE is still 200 ft. Unless you meant that with the NEW--if in Icon range you show on map? Pretty sure that I read a statement from Hitech, that it doesnt effect you if NOE now? Personally, I believe this is a AH Urban legend...easy to understand why folk would think its different as alot of things have changed. I see Goons and other planes popping up to show dar, then disappearing from dar ALL THE TIME...just like in AH2
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PS: The purpose of PUGs is to connect players with the same plan, without having to rely on their own friends list. With a large number of players personal failure might not matter (you'll never meet again), which is not the case in here.
What's missing is quests. That allow to play at the players own pace. Where failure doesn't matter, only success is counted. Where the computer guides through the game. Something that provides a sense of a purpose.
What you suggest is to turn AH into a single player experience, with human player maybe doing things in the background. AH will fail miserably at that since every game out there does it better.
I disagree with almost everything you wrote in the previous post.
You keep thinking of missions as a way to capture a base. You have to stop thinking that. A mission can have a different goal and getting into combat with opposing players is what make this game tick. The bases, the captures, the strats are all just means to make combat happen.
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The best way to get action going is to make an effort to capture a large base. Use the bomber icons on radar to let the other side what is happening. Wait 5 minutes of them seeing a bad case of the measles over the base, then take out the radar. One player in bombers take out a large amount of town buildings. this will show the intent on the down time list for the airfield under attack. Don't vulch lifting defenders in the beginning. Let the fight escalate.
This can be done with a pick up mission for official organization, a shout out on country text, or a few players just getting the ball started for others to join in.
The underlining intent of this based on this topic thread would be for the experienced players to communicate with the new players vis country text to invite for either attack or defense depending on what country your on during this action.
Don't depend on HiTech to establish a learning system through tutorials in game, you tube videos by other players, or information posted in the forum. If experienced players in the game want to keep the new arrivals playing, then it falls on the player base community in the main arena.
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While I wish we could get more people in missions. I think what you are presenting would be a big task for hitech and crew. IMO, setting up map "zones" based on importance would attract more players to a specific area. So, if you attack or Jabo/bomb, tank, or shoot down fighters in the "zone", you will get more perks or points. Colored zones would encourage players to fight in specific areas.
Tutorials should walk you step by step to setting up your joystick, mouse, gear, ect. They should show what darbars are and how they work. How the radio works. And how the GUI works. Not my strong suit.
Maps that have fields that funnel the flow of action really work well. That's why Fester's map was a success even though it was big. Buzzsaw for example doesn't provide very much flow and throws every one in the middle, which doesn't benefit the overall objective of taking bases to win the map. New players just want to find the action quickly while pretending like they are doing something to help their team. Colored Zones of importance would accomplish this much easier and allow for players to group up easier and know where to attack/defend.
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What you suggest is to turn AH into a single player experience, with human player maybe doing things in the background. AH will fail miserably at that since every game out there does it better.
I disagree with almost everything you wrote in the previous post.
You keep thinking of missions as a way to capture a base. You have to stop thinking that. A mission can have a different goal and getting into combat with opposing players is what make this game tick. The bases, the captures, the strats are all just means to make combat happen.
Feel free to disagree as much as you like, but the objective of this game is to capture territory. If you think otherwise, you might be playing the wrong game (http://hitechcreations.com/aircraft-preflight/aces-high-objectives (http://hitechcreations.com/aircraft-preflight/aces-high-objectives)).
Missions should contribute directly or indirectly to the objective in some convincing way. That's anything from destruction of enemy factories to resupplying ones own, protecting ones fields as well as capturing enemy ones. Take away that part of the game, there's just the fight left. Every boxed with some kind of multi-player mode can offer that. Some argue those have lesser flight models and simulation, others think some are better. But more importantly most of them come without a monthly fee.
The idea that players choose multi-player games because they want to play with others is probably pretty wrong. Just as anecdotal evidence the first hit on google (https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/do-you-play-multiplayer-games-alone-1765911/ (https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/do-you-play-multiplayer-games-alone-1765911/)) shows a large number of players of multi-player games playing alone, at least some of the time. I think its like taking walk in downtown, because everyone is there. It doesn't mean someone wants to talk to anyone. What's going on in here can provide a nice background setting for activities that do not require a high amount of communication.
This threat isn't about providing a setting for sating your thirst for blood. Its about keeping noobs entertained long enough to understand the game sufficiently to be able to enjoy it. Noobs that leave after 10 minutes. Noobs that cannot fly straight after auto-takeoff disengages. You suggest to lead them to be slaughtered, while being watched by other humans. No matter how welcoming the mission leader is, the emotionally taxing nature of this setting comes with a more negative effect than any almost single-player activity ever could.
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Feel free to disagree as much as you like, but the objective of this game is to capture territory. If you think otherwise, you might be playing the wrong game
Pardon me, I gotta chime in on this one.
Your objective of this game is to capture territory.
Somebody else's objective of this game it to pursue achievements.
Yet another person's objective is to improve their K/D ratio.
Yet another person's objective is to de-vulch a field with 88s.
And on and on and on.
There is no one way to play the game.. took me a couple years to figure that out.
This game offers many things to many different types of play. Creating a poison environment by insulting people's choices does the game no good.
:salute
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Pardon me, I gotta chime in on this one.
Your objective of this game is to capture territory.
My or your or anyone elses personal objective doesn't matter. Those are all just subjective objectives.
Read the games manual. Link provided above. I know, reading manuals, noone does it.
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My or your or anyone elses personal objective doesn't matter. Those are all just subjective objectives.
Read the games manual. Link provided above. I know, reading manuals, noone does it.
I read it and it says ...."Capturing territory through the use of air, land and sea power is the team objective in Aces High. "
Doesnt mention what a player should or shouldnt be doing or what they may choose as their objective. I guess that leave the options open, right?
The other night we were on the "Crater" amp and there was nothing going on on the Rooks front. My squad, the 56th, and bunch of JUG heads had 6 or 7 guys flying. A couple of us got in bombers, one in a goon, and the others in Jugs.... of course :P After we captured 2 bases, a number of other Rooks joined in and before you know it we had the horde show up to try and slow us down. Turned into a fun time for a couple hours. WHY? because there were missions to attack a base. The 56th isnt known as a base capturing squad, we can if we want. We prefer to fight it out with other fighters. In this case as we rolled missions we got more and more people involved with the "fun" we were having and game play ....in that area improved and was a blast until the side imbalance became a bit over whelming.
Missions are a great thing for this game. Dont think of it as leading newbs to slaughter, but look at as LEADING newbs! The more interaction with them we can generate the more information they will suck up, the more comfortable they will become in communicating, the more comfortable they will become with asking questions. No one is going to turn a newb into an ACE over night, but the more we can get comfortable in the game the more we will have signing on.
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My or your or anyone elses personal objective doesn't matter. Those are all just subjective objectives.
Read the games manual. Link provided above. I know, reading manuals, noone does it.
Meh, they are all byproducts of one another... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Feel free to disagree as much as you like, but the objective of this game is to capture territory. If you think otherwise, you might be playing the wrong game (http://hitechcreations.com/aircraft-preflight/aces-high-objectives (http://hitechcreations.com/aircraft-preflight/aces-high-objectives)).
AH follows much of the form of one of it's predecessors, Air Warrior (as have many other WW air combat flight sims that followed). AW only had two maps; Europe and Pacific, which both ran simultaneously 24/7. I started in 1996 and played primarily on the Europe map which only had three capturable bases along with factories and base objects which could be destroyed at the non-capturable bases. Since capturing the three capturable bases didn't really do anything for you the point of the game was to fly and fight in WWI and WWII aircraft and, to a very limited degree, vehicles.
So, coming from that base, it's not surprising many AH players couldn't care less about capturing territory, instead, playing for their own personal objectives. Capturing territory is only one limited aspect of AH.
So, before you ask why AW isn't still around it was because EA bought it for other business purposes and quickly closed the doors on it.
The idea that players choose multi-player games because they want to play with others is probably pretty wrong. Just as anecdotal evidence the first hit on google (https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/do-you-play-multiplayer-games-alone-1765911/ (https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/do-you-play-multiplayer-games-alone-1765911/)) shows a large number of players of multi-player games playing alone, at least some of the time. I think its like taking walk in downtown, because everyone is there. It doesn't mean someone wants to talk to anyone.
After leading a 60+ player squad in AW I spent the vast majority of my time in AH playing alone. It wasn't that I wanted to play WITH others, it's that I wanted to play AGAINST other, real human beings. In it's best form AH is a sport that allows you to test your skills against the best.
I've been thinking about what would help AH and have come to the conclusion that it's missing tool tips. You know that silly MS Office paperclip guy. But every relatively complex program (and game) includes tool tips. I'd envision beginner, intermediate and advanced, any of which could be selected or deselected at any time. Even if they just pointed you to the key commands and dot commands would be a step in the right direction.
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In it's best form AH is a sport that allows you to test your skills against the best.
Good lord, I agree with BaldEagle. Who would have guessed?
- oldman
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For me the fight is exciting - but only a means to achieve my objective of "furthering my countries cause" (aka winning the war).
And I would venture out and say its that way for a majority of the players - otherwise you would see the matchmaking arena populated with all you "I just care about a good fight, really!!" players. Everytime the subject comes up, we get a lot of people that just care about the fight, yet the one arena that is "just about the fight" is always empty. Hmmm.
Individual goals are differing in many ways, and with every gameplay decision HiTech alienates the one side of the spectrum but makes the other side happy.
If you look at other MMOGs out there, there is always a large section for PVE - and PVP is actually loathed by a large percentage of players. A lot of people aren´t the aggressive fighter-pilot Maverick type, they want to help the cause, take part, be good at what they do, have success. They are happy to fly the goon, bomb a strat, bring supplies, shoot down attackers in a Wirble to help defend their base.
I think ccvi is right in that making the "single-player-experience" (aka PVE) worthwhile is the right way to RETAIN players in their first minutes and hours in AH and gently introduce them to the vicious and frustrating PVP part later on.
Sorry, sharks, I know you need fodder. But eat the hatchlings before they reproduce, and you will eventually starve.
Litjan
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Feel free to disagree as much as you like, but the objective of this game is to capture territory. If you think otherwise, you might be playing the wrong game (http://hitechcreations.com/aircraft-preflight/aces-high-objectives (http://hitechcreations.com/aircraft-preflight/aces-high-objectives)).
Missions should contribute directly or indirectly to the objective in some convincing way. That's anything from destruction of enemy factories to resupplying ones own, protecting ones fields as well as capturing enemy ones. Take away that part of the game, there's just the fight left. Every boxed with some kind of multi-player mode can offer that. Some argue those have lesser flight models and simulation, others think some are better. But more importantly most of them come without a monthly fee.
The idea that players choose multi-player games because they want to play with others is probably pretty wrong. Just as anecdotal evidence the first hit on google (https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/do-you-play-multiplayer-games-alone-1765911/ (https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/do-you-play-multiplayer-games-alone-1765911/)) shows a large number of players of multi-player games playing alone, at least some of the time. I think its like taking walk in downtown, because everyone is there. It doesn't mean someone wants to talk to anyone. What's going on in here can provide a nice background setting for activities that do not require a high amount of communication.
This threat isn't about providing a setting for sating your thirst for blood. Its about keeping noobs entertained long enough to understand the game sufficiently to be able to enjoy it. Noobs that leave after 10 minutes. Noobs that cannot fly straight after auto-takeoff disengages. You suggest to lead them to be slaughtered, while being watched by other humans. No matter how welcoming the mission leader is, the emotionally taxing nature of this setting comes with a more negative effect than any almost single-player activity ever could.
If you take a game where you capture territory and another where you have dogfights in WWII aircraft, the dogfighting game would win every time.
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If you take a game where you capture territory and another where you have dogfights in WWII aircraft, the dogfighting game would win every time.
There's plenty of dogfighting games out there. If you take one with and without a monthly fee the one without will win every time.
Players without any interest in the main objective are still here of course. Because they have ever been (unable to adapt to new), because of people they have known for decades (many of the dead by now), and because the asymetric fights created by many players working towards the main objective provide a personal advantage for pure a2a over a setting that provides balanced fights.
How does that work for new players?
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Maps that provide "paths of attack" ie bases that can be taken in a path like structure provide the best outcome for all of the types of players. You have defenders on one side and attackers on the other. Each person is helping to win the war with their team no matter if they mean to or not, no matter what they chose to roll. Maps that have a TT or FT do not help the war effort. Therefore it takes players away from the strategy to win the map (even if they aren't trying), to only furballing. If there is a map that can provide both a "path to action" and alllow for all teams to meet in the middle if the fight is weak in their side, than I think most of these issues would fix themselves.
In all reality. I think it would benefit AH more to switch to smaller maps at 3AM eastern time - 9AM estern time. This would be a lot better for European flyers who have a hard time finding enough action.
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If you take a game where you capture territory and another where you have dogfights in WWII aircraft, the dogfighting game would win every time.
Not any more Shuff. Todays "gamers" have shown over and over again that they just dont have the time to get proficient in fighters to make it worth their while.
Jump in a gun, easy, just point and shoot
Run supplies, easy, drive and duck under trees until your a mile away from town and drop.
dive bomb in hvy buffs, easy, just dump a whole load of a B17 on a single hanger. Cant miss.
The game is the same and those of us who like to fight in fighters can find a few fights now and then, nothing like it use to be years ago, but they are there. The difference is the new players want to jump in and be pros NOW. If that cant happen they are gone.
Maps that provide "paths of attack" ie bases that can be taken in a path like structure provide the best outcome for all of the types of players. You have defenders on one side and attackers on the other. Each person is helping to win the war with their team no matter if they mean to or not, no matter what they chose to roll. Maps that have a TT or FT do not help the war effort. Therefore it takes players away from the strategy to win the map (even if they aren't trying), to only furballing. If there is a map that can provide both a "path to action" and alllow for all teams to meet in the middle if the fight is weak in their side, than I think most of these issues would fix themselves.
In all reality. I think it would benefit AH more to switch to smaller maps at 3AM eastern time - 9AM estern time. This would be a lot better for European flyers who have a hard time finding enough action.
They tried this for a few months and it sucked. Next time your in the game right click on the map and near the bottom of the list you'll find "field order". Clicking on it use to put up the "lines" on the map to show you the order of capture.
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What sucked? Paths of action or switching the maps during off hours?
All Im saying is that when people know there is an "objective" on the map that is most critical at the time, more people will show up there to achieve that objective, and know where to go to find the most fights/action. It's not forced, as others can still fly any where on the map and attack anything they want. It just provides an objective for people to find the action and be apart of the effort.
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BOTH!
The paths of action sucked because one everyone knew where the attack was coming from/going to. This caused issues with many NOT wanting to fight for the base in an attack, as well as having a cap sitting at 25k to crush any attack coming in. It took all the strategy and surprise out of any attack.
Switching maps always has its complaints due to the fact the players dont log on and off at set times. Switching a map at 1am est is still in the middle of someones flying/playing time. They have to give up on a map.... where they may be close to winning, to switch to a map where they may be losing. When they had the two MAs shut down to a single MA each night to try and keep the numbers viable in the Euro time slots it helped with the but ticked of a lot of people while doing it.
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Pardon me, I gotta chime in on this one.
Your objective of this game is to capture territory.
Somebody else's objective of this game it to pursue achievements.
Yet another person's objective is to improve their K/D ratio.
Yet another person's objective is to de-vulch a field with 88s.
+1
And btw... Its been awhile since I read the manual but last time I did, it hasn't kept up with
the game :salute
And on and on and on.
There is no one way to play the game.. took me a couple years to figure that out.
This game offers many things to many different types of play. Creating a poison environment by insulting people's choices does the game no good.
:salute
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There's plenty of dogfighting games out there. If you take one with and without a monthly fee the one without will win every time.
Players without any interest in the main objective are still here of course. Because they have ever been (unable to adapt to new), because of people they have known for decades (many of the dead by now), and because the asymetric fights created by many players working towards the main objective provide a personal advantage for pure a2a over a setting that provides balanced fights.
How does that work for new players?
I find it funny that you bring up another weak point of many "gamers" today..... math. Many will spend 10s, 100s or 1000s over a month time because $14.95 is too much monthly.
No game of any substance is "free".
The main objective is pretty simple and.makes for some very exciting times..... fighting/competing against another human in an arena where neither can really be harmed. A competition where each and every player can get better by playing on a level playing field.
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if you want old AH'ers to come back, you need new plane types/variants, new tanks/SPV's maybe ships.
The game have not got anything new to play with in a long time.
Mission planners and make game more intuitive is good, but the old players are looking for a reason to come back and play , and they want new toys.
New players either want a ww2 sim or - a community to live in - something many other sim's does not give them the same way as AH does.
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Last night was almost enough to make me quit this game.
Bish and Knights were fighting on their front. Knights trying to hold off the Bish win. Rooks get together.... sorta :D and start pushing the Bish front to try and get them under the 20%. Base after base we took while the few defenders that came out to try and slow us down were in guns or wirbles and the occasional M3. It was a poor defense as we took base after base but one. For someone who likes to fly fighters there were very few guys to fight..... most players hiding in GVs.... and those that did come up in a plane made one pass and then dove out to circle in the wirbles range of fire. There is more excitement playing a game of solitaire.
If the "action" isnt put back into this game by the players new players arent going to stay, and old players will just get bored and leave.
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Last night was almost enough to make me quit this game.
By contrast, I had a lot of fun last night. With the new radar, I was able to spot some enemy fighters. I headed that way, had a fun fight, then needed a new plane (as always). I announced my location, my destination, my altitude and my plane type. Within a few minutes we had three or four people on each side participating in the engagement.
What I took from this: If you tell people where you are and where you're going, like-minded others will come out to play. So far as I'm concerned, the rest of the crowd can entertain itself with winning the war.
- oldman
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By contrast, I had a lot of fun last night. With the new radar, I was able to spot some enemy fighters. I headed that way, had a fun fight, then needed a new plane (as always). I announced my location, my destination, my altitude and my plane type. Within a few minutes we had three or four people on each side participating in the engagement.
What I took from this: If you tell people where you are and where you're going, like-minded others will come out to play. So far as I'm concerned, the rest of the crowd can entertain itself with winning the war.
- oldman
What team were you playing on? If it was Bish or Knight then yes there seemed to be PLENTY going on on that front. Rook front was pretty much empty but for the wirble yahoos.
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Last night was almost enough to make me quit this game.
Bish and Knights were fighting on their front. Knights trying to hold off the Bish win. Rooks get together.... sorta :D and start pushing the Bish front to try and get them under the 20%. Base after base we took while the few defenders that came out to try and slow us down were in guns or wirbles and the occasional M3. It was a poor defense as we took base after base but one. For someone who likes to fly fighters there were very few guys to fight..... most players hiding in GVs.... and those that did come up in a plane made one pass and then dove out to circle in the wirbles range of fire. There is more excitement playing a game of solitaire.
If the "action" isnt put back into this game by the players new players arent going to stay, and old players will just get bored and leave.
Being the third wheel sucks no matter the situation.
just a quick question:
How does a developer put the action back in to the game when the action is reliant on players actions? do you want a linear game? 'Cause that's how you get a linear game... .
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What team were you playing on? If it was Bish or Knight then yes there seemed to be PLENTY going on on that front. Rook front was pretty much empty but for the wirble yahoos.
Rooks are usually the low side when I log on, and last night was no different. So I was a rook. I believe the people I was fighting were bishops.
- oldman
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Being the third wheel sucks no matter the situation.
just a quick question:
How does a developer put the action back in to the game when the action is reliant on players actions? do you want a linear game? 'Cause that's how you get a linear game... .
....as I said in my last line of the message you quoted...
If the "action" isnt put back into this game by the players, new players arent going to stay, and old players will just get bored and leave.
I believe HTC could "push" players to do this by limiting guns and 88s during low population numbers as well as wirble availability. Its the low numbers that is highlighting the issues. If there are 120 players on and 20 of them are in guns and 88s thats a big number, but 250 players with 20 in guns not so much a big deal.
Rooks are usually the low side when I log on, and last night was no different. So I was a rook. I believe the people I was fighting were bishops.
- oldman
I was on untill 11PM est and I didnt see you, maybe things picked up after I logged. I ran one buff run, one M3 run with troops, half a dozen P38 runs, and half dozen hvy P47 runs, as well as joined a mission KB put up. Dropped bombs on wirbles and T34s, shot up a few M3s running supplies, carpet bombed a V base, and chased 190s and spits through ack/wirble fire. All and all a pretty boring night. Had one fight with a spit that started co-E at 14k and went to the deck but again, he ran for the ack and a buddy came off the base to HO me.
If HTC added something in to where a team could take no more than 3 bases in a row from one team WITHOUT taking a base from the third team it would break up that "third wheel" issue. Forcing fights to move from one front to another.
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....as I said in my last line of the message you quoted...
You're right, I misread the last line. My bad.
:salute
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Last night was almost enough to make me quit this game.
Bish and Knights were fighting on their front. Knights trying to hold off the Bish win. Rooks get together.... sorta :D and start pushing the Bish front to try and get them under the 20%. Base after base we took while the few defenders that came out to try and slow us down were in guns or wirbles and the occasional M3. It was a poor defense as we took base after base but one. For someone who likes to fly fighters there were very few guys to fight..... most players hiding in GVs.... and those that did come up in a plane made one pass and then dove out to circle in the wirbles range of fire. There is more excitement playing a game of solitaire.
If the "action" isnt put back into this game by the players new players arent going to stay, and old players will just get bored and leave.
Yes, you are correct, we were in VEHICLES! Had a great time defending in the WIRB...was 2 hours plus! HOWEVER...IT WAS A V-BASE...and you wonder why we were defending in GV's :headscratch: I liked it...then again I love every thing AH :neener: Even at the Air Fields, once again WIRB HEAVEN. I WASNT EVEN gonna think about trying to up a plane :devil Not when the field is CAPPED and deacked with 8 fighters vulching the run way. 2 Jugs, 2 Spits, 1 110 and 1 Mossy an La7 and a Ki-84. With 4 more fighters hovering near town. That to me is no fun. So YEAH, Wirb was BOSS :devil
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I was on untill 11PM est and I didnt see you, maybe things picked up after I logged.
My first film was saved at exactly midnight, so I was an hour later than you.
I'll stick with the premise, though. I think you can find fights if you ask for them.
- oldman
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Artificial intelligence generated "Maximum effort missions" or "Fuhrer Directives"...................
After a predetermined amount of time the game does not detect a player generate mission against side A or B. The Game AI sets up a mission and targets a base.
If the mission parameters or objectives are not achieved in a certain amount of time, all players presents at the start of the mission lose perk points for failing the objectives.
Just for fun.... exempt the side with the lowest number of players from AI missions. ;) And cut down on 2 teams ganging up on the third.
CAV
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My first film was saved at exactly midnight, so I was an hour later than you.
I'll stick with the premise, though. I think you can find fights if you ask for them.
- oldman
Im sure there are still those that will accommodate you when you call out but it isnt the norm any longer. I was on for over 5 hours last night and had only one fight that was any good and even then that one ended with the guy running to the base/friendly to save his butt.
The rest of the time was bombing GVs or dropping guns at fields.... so much fun.
The game mechanics ALLOW all kinds of play, unfortunately todays players seem to choose the least combative and look to avoid as much combat as possible.
HTC has to decide if they are putting out a combat game, or something more along the line of a realtors game where changing properties is the end game.
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Im sure there are still those that will accommodate you when you call out but it isnt the norm any longer. I was on for over 5 hours last night and had only one fight that was any good and even then that one ended with the guy running to the base/friendly to save his butt.
The rest of the time was bombing GVs or dropping guns at fields.... so much fun.
The game mechanics ALLOW all kinds of play, unfortunately todays players seem to choose the least combative and look to avoid as much combat as possible.
HTC has to decide if they are putting out a combat game, or something more along the line of a realtors game where changing properties is the end game.
First off, you can't hang out near a field and expect them to not run to the ack, because they invariably will. Feign a pass at the town to get the ack firing at you and they will think you are easy meat. Give up your six. Then drag them out to where they can't run to the ack. They also will be much more aggressive if you are in a low end aircraft. That gives them an advantage but it's not insurmountable unless the guy is much better than you. IMO, flying a low end plane is the best way to learn how to survive, because you can't run or climb out of it when things go south. You have to figure out some pilot stuff through trial and error and it will make you better - guaranteed. Then you kick their taints back to the tower (if all goes well).
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First off, you can't hang out near a field and expect them to not run to the ack, because they invariably will. Feign a pass at the town to get the ack firing at you and they will think you are easy meat. Give up your six. Then drag them out to where they can't run to the ack. They also will be much more aggressive if you are in a low end aircraft. That gives them an advantage but it's not insurmountable unless the guy is much better than you. IMO, flying a low end plane is the best way to learn how to survive, because you can't run or climb out of it when things go south. You have to figure out some pilot stuff through trial and error and it will make you better - guaranteed. Then you kick their taints back to the tower (if all goes well).
Defensive maneuvers are the best. Great advice. I always try to drag players out to get that 1v1 or 1v2 scenario. Then I pull a defensive maneuver and throw them for a loop ;). You can get so many more kills with defensive counter punch maneuvers.
Yes, you are correct, we were in VEHICLES! Had a great time defending in the WIRB...was 2 hours plus! HOWEVER...IT WAS A V-BASE...and you wonder why we were defending in GV's :headscratch: I liked it...then again I love every thing AH :neener: Even at the Air Fields, once again WIRB HEAVEN. I WASNT EVEN gonna think about trying to up a plane :devil Not when the field is CAPPED and deacked with 8 fighters vulching the run way. 2 Jugs, 2 Spits, 1 110 and 1 Mossy an La7 and a Ki-84. With 4 more fighters hovering near town. That to me is no fun. So YEAH, Wirb was BOSS :devil
Temps are your friends. Hoards hate temps. Roll from a back base, get about 18K. Dig in!
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Defensive maneuvers are the best. Great advice. I always try to drag players out to get that 1v1 or 1v2 scenario. Then I pull a defensive maneuver and throw them for a loop ;). You can get so many more kills with defensive counter punch maneuvers.
Temps are your friends. Hoards hate temps. Roll from a back base, get about 18K. Dig in!
True!!! It was a DIRE SITUATION though...all be it, I did stick to the Wirb defense well after the immediate emergency was diminished! Masochistic...? Its what I am good at :devil Also...appreciate your input about my Freaky discovery, the other day :rock
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Once the ball is "rolling" a little with missions, you can keep the numbers up...
If i'm online for a good stretch, I'll just start posting Pickup Missions each time I'm going to up... I've found about 10minutes before launch is a good window as it gives people time to finish their sortie, land, or get in that field gun for 5minutes of action (or go for a smoke/bio/drink break)... Sometimes we get people to join, other times it's just me launching by myself... BUT I'd rather have a mission posted for ppl to join than not...
It's all about timing and preference, I've had ppl tell me they don't like the aircraft choice, or that it's "too much fuel" for them. I dunno, all you can do it post them and try to be entertaining... I've NEVER flown a pickup mission that DID NOT result in some form of action or entertainment....
Over this weekend I had some great success (in pulling in players to a mission, not necessarily launching it correctly {sry guys!}), but it did take awhile for rooks to catch on that we were running together. Heck, I even FILLED a 12 slot mission for a P51D fighter sweep!
Thanks to those that joined, I hope you guys enjoyed yourselves!
A bad pickup mission is still better than nothing... :salute rooks that joined up!
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Once the ball is "rolling" a little with missions, you can keep the numbers up...
If i'm online for a good stretch, I'll just start posting Pickup Missions each time I'm going to up... I've found about 10minutes before launch is a good window as it gives people time to finish their sortie, land, or get in that field gun for 5minutes of action (or go for a smoke/bio/drink break)... Sometimes we get people to join, other times it's just me launching by myself... BUT I'd rather have a mission posted for ppl to join than not...
It's all about timing and preference, I've had ppl tell me they don't like the aircraft choice, or that it's "too much fuel" for them. I dunno, all you can do it post them and try to be entertaining... I've NEVER flown a pickup mission that DID NOT result in some form of action or entertainment....
Over this weekend I had some great success (in pulling in players to a mission, not necessarily launching it correctly {sry guys!}), but it did take awhile for rooks to catch on that we were running together. Heck, I even FILLED a 12 slot mission for a P51D fighter sweep!
Thanks to those that joined, I hope you guys enjoyed yourselves!
A bad pickup mission is still better than nothing... :salute rooks that joined up!
Missions are great fun and a great way to interact with fellow friendlies. You have a good idea there. Go ahead and create missions, call it out, maybe get some people to join, If not, ohwell, carry on with the sortie anyway.
Perhaps HTC could do more to encourage missions, or at least make them more visible on the GUI when they are posted so people can see if there is one. For example, I log on, and if there is a mission posted, it will pop up as a Side bar. Or a radio message text comes thru calling out a mission to that team, so If people are in the air, they can see that a mission posted. If you are in the tower. A side bar pops out of the clipboard without clicking anything that shows all of the missions.
Any thing that can be posted without people having to click on it to see what's posted would be better. Then they can simply click on it and join the mission.
I feel like Special Events for that month should also be posted on the Arena message. So many more players would join. Many never look at the boards and the website doesn't even market them. I just don't get it....
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...who wants to do a mishun when you can't NOE properly at 65 bloody feet above the ground?
:bolt:
65 ft? … that's a cake walk :aok
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Once the ball is "rolling" a little with missions, you can keep the numbers up...
If i'm online for a good stretch, I'll just start posting Pickup Missions each time I'm going to up... I've found about 10minutes before launch is a good window as it gives people time to finish their sortie, land, or get in that field gun for 5minutes of action (or go for a smoke/bio/drink break)... Sometimes we get people to join, other times it's just me launching by myself... BUT I'd rather have a mission posted for ppl to join than not...
It's all about timing and preference, I've had ppl tell me they don't like the aircraft choice, or that it's "too much fuel" for them. I dunno, all you can do it post them and try to be entertaining... I've NEVER flown a pickup mission that DID NOT result in some form of action or entertainment....
Over this weekend I had some great success (in pulling in players to a mission, not necessarily launching it correctly {sry guys!}), but it did take awhile for rooks to catch on that we were running together. Heck, I even FILLED a 12 slot mission for a P51D fighter sweep!
Thanks to those that joined, I hope you guys enjoyed yourselves!
A bad pickup mission is still better than nothing... :salute rooks that joined up!
This highlights some of the snags that the current mission system suffers from. The interface for posting the mission is very VERY old fashioned - one step below would be writing script files in a terminal. The visibility of mission to potential players is non existent and relies on shouts in country channel. The players cannot tweak the loadout of their planes (there should be a flag for the mission designer to not/allow this). There is no “launch now” button... and the list goes on.
You are also correct about the rolling ball effect. Once you get missions going, this will encorage more mission posting. I juggested mission leaders scores and ratings to help with initializing the process and keep its momentum. My experience shows that it is a relatively small number of leader types that do these things and HTC should reward them and make it pleasent and easy for them to post the missions. All these things need to happen roughly together and this is why it is not a mere small patch to the game. On the other hand, this does not require AH4 by a long shot.
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This highlights some of the snags that the current mission system suffers from. The interface for posting the mission is very VERY old fashioned - one step below would be writing script files in a terminal. The visibility of mission to potential players is non existent and relies on shouts in country channel. The players cannot tweak the loadout of their planes (there should be a flag for the mission designer to not/allow this). There is no “launch now” button... and the list goes on.
You are also correct about the rolling ball effect. Once you get missions going, this will encorage more mission posting. I juggested mission leaders scores and ratings to help with initializing the process and keep its momentum. My experience shows that it is a relatively small number of leader types that do these things and HTC should reward them and make it pleasent and easy for them to post the missions. All these things need to happen roughly together and this is why it is not a mere small patch to the game. On the other hand, this does not require AH4 by a long shot.
I'm also experiencing some strange bugs/glitches in the Pickup Mission Editor.... like freezing the game solid when working from a saved mission trying to edit/place waypoints. Unfortunately the Pickup Mission system leaves a lot to be desired... Skuzzy, I have faith in your hold over HTC (threaten him with a cord pulling "accident").
I like the launch now wish, but I really think there needs to be some form of country wide notification and acceptance option. 10min minimum launch time on my Pickup Missions seems to at least grab a few players from their lone-wolf, pearl-necklace approach to "going where the action is".
In MY opinion, pickup missions are made of the things that "hook" players to this game, coordinated effort with country-men all somewhat focused on the same task... Heck, even classic bomber + escort missions will see action given enough players in the mission (a large dar back from the front line will ALWAYS get red guys intercepting).
HTC and crew, please take a hard look at the Pickup Mission editor/system... Make Pickup Missions Great Again? ? ? :bolt:
EDIT: There seems to be a tipping point also on country channel, once you get 4-6 players in the mission roster, the general populace seems to be more enticed to join... in the past week, I've gotten on average 3-4 players in mission, but when it reached 6 players, typically it jumped to 10-12 right away... People are funny creatures...
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:aok Herd mentality :rofl In large venues, you will NEVER see a "LONE" Female going to restroom.... For that matter, you will RARELY see a "LONE, Male, Wall Flower" either. Guess the walls were not built to code? Usually takes at least 5 or 6 to ho;d the walls up and in place :x
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:aok Herd mentality :rofl In large venues, you will NEVER see a "LONE" Female going to restroom.... For that matter, you will RARELY see a "LONE, Male, Wall Flower" either. Guess the walls were not built to code? Usually takes at least 5 or 6 to ho;d the walls up and in place :x
Not to change the subject but...... I was shopping new toilets for my house. Good Lord..... you could just go buy one years a go. Now you have anything from $150 to $6000. I have a smart home but I did not need my toilet knowing who I am and what music and air flow I preferred. ROTFLMAO
Even one line in a manufacturer's list may have 10 versions. BTW if you do anything but white, just add $150 to $200 each. LOL
We ended up with Kohler Highline in Biscuit, comfort height elongated with Rutledge Quiet Close seat. We chose not to add the trailering package or racing stripes.
:O
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Not to change the subject but...... I was shopping new toilets for my house. Good Lord..... you could just go buy one years a go. Now you have anything from $150 to $6000. I have a smart home but I did not need my toilet knowing who I am and what music and air flow I preferred. ROTFLMAO
Even one line in a manufacturer's list may have 10 versions. BTW if you do anything but white, just add $150 to $200 each. LOL
We ended up with Kohler Highline in Biscuit, comfort height elongated with Rutledge Quiet Close seat. We chose not to add the trailering package or racing stripes.
:O
Oh YES! Ran into the same issues after a house fire, 2013 :uhoh Its a "device" for POO...how FANCY DOES IT NEED TO BE! :headscratch: Like a BACK UP Camera? For "Proper DETAIL work" thats really the ONLY OPTION I didnt see :rofl
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Make one yourself and see if its not worth the money crafting one of these things. :neener:
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Great, a discussion about game play and how to keep new players turns into talk about toilets :rolleyes:
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Still more classy than most discussions on the subject.......so far.
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Great, a discussion about game play and how to keep new players turns into talk about toilets :rolleyes:
Don't have such a crappy attitude. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Don't have such a crappy attitude. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
:aok :rofl :rofl :rofl :rock :bolt:
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I find it pretty sad, actually, how pretty much every thread turns into an off-topic discussion or the same old "hey dude, haven´t seen you in a long time, how is life? Still working on that ´72 Chevy of yours?" banter. :huh
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Sorry... your post is off topic.
Ebb and flow.