General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on December 21, 2019, 03:17:52 PM
Title: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: davidpt40 on December 21, 2019, 03:17:52 PM
In the Ethopian airlines crash, MCAS was shut off, and the manual trim wheel was used. But it still wouldn't trim. See this YouTube video by this airline pilot who talks about the auto-throttle system preventing it. It's only 12 minutes, and you can skip the first 2 where he complains about lighting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbUDZb1Ybs
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 21, 2019, 04:19:53 PM
In the Ethopian airlines crash, MCAS was shut off, and the manual trim wheel was used. But it still wouldn't trim. See this YouTube video by this airline pilot who talks about the auto-throttle system preventing it. It's only 12 minutes, and you can skip the first 2 where he complains about lighting.
:bhead
You cannot trim by hand when you are doing over 350 knots down low (exceeding the airplane's Vmo) because you didn't reduce power from the takeoff setting.
And they did move the stab manually about twenty percent of what was needed, so the notion they couldn't move it is bogus.
I'm no Boeing fan when it comes to the 737 in general (Southwest has bullied them into keeping it old, outdated, and "dumb") but this is on the crew.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: TyFoo on December 21, 2019, 06:38:49 PM
If you read the transcript, there was 8 seconds from the time the F.O. asked the Captain if he should try to manually trim the aircraft, received an affirmative response, attempted to move the wheel, and report that he was unable to trim the aircraft.
8 seconds. In essence there was no manual movement of the trim. Even if the auto throttle went into this “low altitude level off” situation he describes and did not adjust thrust for proper airspeed, the crew should have.
In the comment section, a 737 pilot comments when the Video speaks to startle factor” the emergent situation, and the fact that the crew was overwhelmed with multiple alarms, stick shaker input, etc, and states that they should have flown the plane first.
Meaning they should have hit the big red disconnect button disabling the autopilot, trim, and auto throttle - get straight and level, back to a manageable airspeed and then started working the problem. They were in VMC conditions, had they been IMC, I could see a lot of things going wrong very fast.
I believe that MCAS was an issue. However, the lack of airmanship, having a low time F.O. in the right seat and an obvious lack of company training in type are significant contributing factors to this accident. As an example, It took 3:45 min/seconds for the F.O. to “Look Up” a Memory Item”.
The very fact that the “Ethiopian Governments version of the FAA” in their report overlooks the airmanship & training side of things so as not to discredit the pilots and or the Airline makes them complicit and directly contributes to the unsafe & hazardous culture that leads to accidents like this.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 21, 2019, 08:02:55 PM
Ethiopian airlines is owned by the Ethiopian government which determined everything was someone else's fault.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Haskell on December 21, 2019, 08:43:44 PM
The very fact that the “Ethiopian Governments version of the FAA” in their report overlooks the airmanship & training side of things so as not to discredit the pilots and or the Airline makes them complicit and directly contributes to the unsafe & hazardous culture that leads to accidents like this.
The NTSB said they followed Boeing's guidelines by the book (which MCAS was not in).
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 21, 2019, 08:54:52 PM
If you read the transcript, there was 8 seconds from the time the F.O. asked the Captain if he should try to manually trim the aircraft, received an affirmative response, attempted to move the wheel, and report that he was unable to trim the aircraft.
8 seconds. In essence there was no manual movement of the trim. Even if the auto throttle went into this “low altitude level off” situation he describes and did not adjust thrust for proper airspeed, the crew should have.
In the comment section, a 737 pilot comments when the Video speaks to startle factor” the emergent situation, and the fact that the crew was overwhelmed with multiple alarms, stick shaker input, etc, and states that they should have flown the plane first.
Meaning they should have hit the big red disconnect button disabling the autopilot, trim, and auto throttle - get straight and level, back to a manageable airspeed and then started working the problem. They were in VMC conditions, had they been IMC, I could see a lot of things going wrong very fast.
I believe that MCAS was an issue. However, the lack of airmanship, having a low time F.O. in the right seat and an obvious lack of company training in type are significant contributing factors to this accident. As an example, It took 3:45 min/seconds for the F.O. to “Look Up” a Memory Item”.
The very fact that the “Ethiopian Governments version of the FAA” in their report overlooks the airmanship & training side of things so as not to discredit the pilots and or the Airline makes them complicit and directly contributes to the unsafe & hazardous culture that leads to accidents like this.
Meanwhile, the continued to fly the airplane at Takeoff Thrust until impact. Even an electric trim motor can be overloaded aerodynamically if you are flying too fast.
I recently experienced this exact failure in a B-737 simulator with an STS runaway. It's a non-event if you know how to fly.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Puma44 on December 21, 2019, 10:45:10 PM
In the Ethopian airlines crash, MCAS was shut off, and the manual trim wheel was used. But it still wouldn't trim. See this YouTube video by this airline pilot who talks about the auto-throttle system preventing it. It's only 12 minutes, and you can skip the first 2 where he complains about lighting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbUDZb1Ybs
This is a “HEY LOOK AT ME!” YouTube video from a guy who admittedly has not flown the 737 or it’s simulator, yet passes himself off as some sort of authority on the subject. He fails to mention that the Ethiopian pilots could have merely disconnected the auto throttles and simply reduced power, slowed down, and then manually trimmed the jet. Once again, Private Pilot 101: Fly the aircraft and maintain aircraft control. Instead, they burned into the ground at very high airspeed with the thrust levers at takeoff power setting.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: guncrasher on December 22, 2019, 01:41:11 AM
that's what scares the crap out of me. "it's a non issue". hey there's problem with my car, something is wrong but I am a great driver, so "it's a non issue".
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: guncrasher on December 22, 2019, 01:47:53 AM
This is a “HEY LOOK AT ME!” YouTube video from a guy who admittedly has not flown the 737 or it’s simulator, yet passes himself off as some sort of authority on the subject. He fails to mention that the Ethiopian pilots could have merely disconnected the auto throttles and simply reduced power, slowed down, and then manually trimmed the jet. Once again, Private Pilot 101: Fly the aircraft and maintain aircraft control. Instead, they burned into the ground at very high airspeed with the thrust levers at takeoff power setting.
look at me I can handle it in a simulator. have asked have you ever experienced this "anomaly" in this type of plane. not one here have said yes.
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Easyscor on December 22, 2019, 05:38:05 AM
After you quote Puma you can begin your reply with "Captain" as he recently retired as such from Southwest.
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 22, 2019, 06:55:34 AM
that's what scares the crap out of me. "it's a non issue". hey there's problem with my car, something is wrong but I am a great driver, so "it's a non issue".
semp
You have it backwards. You don't need something wrong with your car to crash. Most aircraft accidents occur to flyable planes. Just like the thousands of daily car crashes, it's the person in control making mistakes and not getting away with it this time.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
that's what scares the crap out of me. "it's a non issue". hey there's problem with my car, something is wrong but I am a great driver, so "it's a non issue".
semp
Oh, there's an issue. Too bad you can't fix stupid.
Third world airlines are notorious for incompetence on multiple levels.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 09:12:53 AM
You have it backwards. You don't need something wrong with your car to crash. Most aircraft accidents occur to flyable planes. Just like the thousands of daily car crashes, it's the person in control making mistakes and not getting away with it this time.
This.
Semp should be more afraid of pilots from Third World countries than airplanes from First World ones.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 09:15:24 AM
look at me I can handle it in a simulator. have asked have you ever experienced this "anomaly" in this type of plane. not one here have said yes.
semp
Actually, the simulator is much harder to fly/control because it’s just that, a simulator.
Since the grammar and punctuation in your sentence is somewhat confusing, let’s assume you’re asking a question. The answer here is yes, plus numerous events where the autopilot, FMS, and/or auto throttles started the 737 going in a direction it was not commanded to. As we commonly called it, “Dummy Down” the jet, as a first step. In other words, deselect the system that was misbehaving and again, Private Pilot 101, fly the aircraft and maintain aircraft control. Again, something neither crew in these two third world country flown 737s had the ability to do.
There are four basic steps that can be applied to any Non Normal situation.
1. Maintain aircraft control 2. Analyze the situation 3. Take the appropriate action 4. Maintain situational awareness.
If an honest and realistic evaluation is applied to the two 737 incidents in question, it is plainly obvious that none of these steps were considered.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Toad on December 22, 2019, 09:33:58 AM
I have. I posted about it in the other thread. I was the F/O on the 737 with the AOA malfunction at unstick.
Both the Lion Air and the Ethiopian events started with a basic AOA malfunction.
Fly the jet.
But you're never going to "get it" because you simply have no basis for understanding these situations.
Thus, it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you.
And with that, it is time to depart this thread (and I am hoping those who haven't weighed in yet spare themselves the effort). I suggest all of us who know what we're talking about do the same. Go enjoy the beautiful day. As the old saying goes: Don't feed the trolls.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 22, 2019, 09:42:52 AM
I cannot believe this "turkey" keeps getting resurrected in this forum. As I said before, we seem to live in an era where people will believe what they want to believe in spite of education or evidence to the contrary. Greg Feith,s commentary was priceless but sadly not widely published and the drama of a killer airplane is so much more exciting than reading about gross incompetence in the cockpit.
It seems that one third-world Government Regulator realizes that pilot training is lacking:
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Toad on December 22, 2019, 10:05:04 AM
Good article Busher.
It is a problem and it won't be resolved any time soon.
Fact is there is a huge shortage of competent aviators. There is also a basic infrastructure problem that inhibits training a large number of pilots very quickly. There are just not enough simulators to get it done. Not to mention the expense. The for profit training companies get about $140 per second for training two pilots in a modern Level D sim.
The last time there was a HUGE demand for pilots right away was WW2. At the end of World War II, the Army Air Forces Training Command had graduated 250,000 pilots from its schools.
Now, perspective on training: The U.S. suffered 52,173 aircrew combat losses. But another 25,844 died in accidents. More than half of these died in the continental U.S. The U.S. lost 65,164 planes during the war, but only 22,948 in combat. There were 21,583 lost due to accidents in the U.S., and another 20,633 lost in accidents overseas.
So what's that tell you about where we are now? You need a "crash" program like WW2 pilot training to provide the number of pilots that will be needed.
Quote
Demand for air travel is growing so rapidly that 800,000 new pilots are expected to be needed over the next 20 years, according to Boeing’s latest forecast.
The biggest need is in the Asia-Pacific region, where an improving economy in China has resulted in more people booking flights.https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/boeing-ceo-says-global-pilot-shortage-is-one-of-the-biggest-challenges.html
The US in an all out effort trained 250,000 pilots in about 5 years. That size program might meet the demand in the Boeing forecast. I don't see that kind of training effort getting done. Even so, that kind of training program still only turns out low time aviators.
There's the problem, as evidenced by the WW2 training and non-combat losses.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 11:05:51 AM
It's a waste of time, guys.
And yes, I can personally attest to the low standards in Africa where pilots, maintenance, etc. etc. is concerned. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not about the PEOPLE it's about the CULTURE.
A safety culture is not something that spontaneously appears. It has to be cultivated, nurtured, promoted, and requires buy-in from all involved. Without those elements--among others--you may as well forget the whole concept. But ultimately it has to be taught. You can't know what you don't know.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Easyscor on December 22, 2019, 12:31:33 PM
The NTSB says that the first officer failed proficiency evaluations during his training at Atlas Air, which operates Amazon Air flights, and at his prior job at Mesa Airlines. He also washed out of training at two other airlines, which he concealed when he applied for work at Atlas, claiming that he had been doing freelance real estate work and taking college classes during that period of time.
Sure...he failed a lot.....but we NEED more pilots!
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 01:54:55 PM
Sure...he failed a lot.....but we NEED more pilots!
Expletive deleted :rolleyes:
I saw the changes in aviation as my career progressed. I remember when I started my airline job as a wet-behind-the ears kid, there was a company policy fully supported by ALPA, that all new pilots must pass a "Captain potential assessment" within 2 years. It was a fair judgement based upon numerous check rides and the input of Captains we all flew with. We all knew that failure would result in termination. Admittedly brutal but keep in mind this was the early 1970s.
Over the next few decades, I watched that brutal approach to pilot staffing change to an attitude that promoted the belief that "anyone can be trained to do anything". Maybe that is the case (I would have always like to play the piano), but sadly as a both a line Captain and a Check Airman, I have encountered far too many pilots - especially in the last decade of my career - that might have done better as stock brokers.
I would like to have Puma44's input because I never had the opportunity to try military training. But given the stakes involved, I had always assumed there was no place for "good enough". Who would give a 50 million dollar fighter jet to some clown that might prang it before the fight even starts?
Flying airplanes is fun but its equally unforgiving. I don't claim to have the answer to the world-wide pilot shortage but turning out bodies in the interest of staffing ahead of quality is certainly going to result in a lot more splashed airplanes.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 07:33:30 PM
I saw the changes in aviation as my career progressed. I remember when I started my airline job as a wet-behind-the ears kid, there was a company policy fully supported by ALPA, that all new pilots must pass a "Captain potential assessment" within 2 years. It was a fair judgement based upon numerous check rides and the input of Captains we all flew with. We all knew that failure would result in termination. Admittedly brutal but keep in mind this was the early 1970s.
Over the next few decades, I watched that brutal approach to pilot staffing change to an attitude that promoted the belief that "anyone can be trained to do anything". Maybe that is the case (I would have always like to play the piano), but sadly as a both a line Captain and a Check Airman, I have encountered far too many pilots - especially in the last decade of my career - that might have done better as stock brokers.
I would like to have Puma44's input because I never had the opportunity to try military training. But given the stakes involved, I had always assumed there was no place for "good enough". Who would give a 50 million dollar fighter jet to some clown that might prang it before the fight even starts?
Flying airplanes is fun but its equally unforgiving. I don't claim to have the answer to the world-wide pilot shortage but turning out bodies in the interest of staffing ahead of quality is certainly going to result in a lot more splashed airplanes.
Busher, do you know what they call someone who graduates last from Medical School?
"Doctor."
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: guncrasher on December 22, 2019, 09:02:07 PM
Oh, there's an issue. Too bad you can't fix stupid.
Third world airlines are notorious for incompetence on multiple levels.
you are right too bad you cant fix stupid.
did the pilots messed up? I believe you 100%. what I dont believe is the idea that an airplane can have a problem with whatever and the thinking of "it's a non-issue, I can deal with it" instead of I can deal with it but let's fix it so I dont have to. this is what scares the crap out of me.
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 22, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
did the pilots messed up? I believe you 100%. what I dont believe is the idea that an airplane can have a problem with whatever and the thinking of "it's a non-issue, I can deal with it" instead of I can deal with it but let's fix it so I dont have to. this is what scares the crap out of me.
semp
Semp, airplanes have become terribly complex and while the technology is very reliable, computers fail. Most failures are innocuous - this one should have been. Airplane manufacturers are not going back to "steam technology" because computerised airliners fly more economically than those that we had to hand-fly for a significant portion of every flight.
So until the techs that build them can make all systems fail-safe, it's going to take 2 calm experienced and well trained pilots to take control.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 22, 2019, 09:42:54 PM
did the pilots messed up? I believe you 100%. what I dont believe is the idea that an airplane can have a problem with whatever and the thinking of "it's a non-issue, I can deal with it" instead of I can deal with it but let's fix it so I dont have to. this is what scares the crap out of me.
semp
What problem do you think exists that is being ignored?
The MCAS was added to prevent a potential problem and was deemed safe when used properly. It was a fix for a problem that hasn't happened. Sort of the opposite of your complaint.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Puma44 on December 22, 2019, 09:46:05 PM
I would like to have Puma44's input because I never had the opportunity to try military training. But given the stakes involved, I had always assumed there was no place for "good enough". Who would give a 50 million dollar fighter jet to some clown that might prang it before the fight even starts?
Flying airplanes is fun but its equally unforgiving. I don't claim to have the answer to the world-wide pilot shortage but turning out bodies in the interest of staffing ahead of quality is certainly going to result in a lot more splashed airplanes.
Military flight training is nothing short of intense. I’ve always compared it to going through four years of college in one year. A couple of years ago, a family friend got a pilot training slot to Vance AFB, my UPT base also. Before he started, I told him they would put a fire hose in every orifice and turn them up to 125% the first day and it wouldn’t let up for a year. Somewhere through the midst of it, we talked for a couple of hours about his experience. He was very frustrated that there wasn’t enough time to learn everything as perfectly as he wanted. He said just when something made sense and he wanted to improve on it, something totally new came down the trough.
Everyone who is awarded USAF Pilot Wings meets the same basic standards. Some met the standards better than the others. Those are the ones selected for fighter/attack follow on assignments. “Good enough” isn’t very survivable at 540 knots a couple hundred feet above the ground.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 10:28:32 PM
What problem do you think exists that is being ignored?
The MCAS was added to prevent a potential problem and was deemed safe when used properly. It was a fix for a problem that hasn't happened. Sort of the opposite of your complaint.
It's actually a replacement for a system (STS) that has been on the 737 since at least the NG. Same duck, different color feathers.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Oldman731 on December 22, 2019, 10:58:31 PM
What problem do you think exists that is being ignored?
The MCAS was added to prevent a potential problem and was deemed safe when used properly. It was a fix for a problem that hasn't happened. Sort of the opposite of your complaint.
not saying ignored by the manufacturer, or perhaps it is. but ignored by you guys. redundant systems, a single sensor used that can fail because somebody was chewing bubble gum and left it there and forgot about it. I dont hear from you guys saying that. I want to hear from you guys say, well yeah, the sensor thingy should be redundant just in case. because put yourselves as passengers and you will understand what I am trying to say. yes things can fail and a good pilot will try to fly till the airplane crashes or lands. yes the 2 planes that crashed did have bad pilots. and I am not saying it should replace training. but if it had had a redundant system or a light that said "hey stupid, I am giving you wrong information, instead of being sold as an option. well that is scary.
and again put yourselves in a situation whre you know nothing about airplanes like me. and I am overly exaggerating here, and you hear a pilot say, after the fact, yes the gas truck took off the wingtip but no need to fix it. I am a trained professional and I can fly it. and I gave you this example just to prove a point to us passengers, that's what you guys sound like. I do agree pilot training had a big thing to do with it, but what I worry about is pilots saying well it it's a non-issue, instead of saying we train for it, but it should be fixed.
I am not trolling any of you guys, just giving you my thoughts as a passenger.
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 12:00:20 AM
not saying ignored by the manufacturer, or perhaps it is. but ignored by you guys. redundant systems, a single sensor used that can fail because somebody was chewing bubble gum and left it there and forgot about it. I dont hear from you guys saying that. I want to hear from you guys say, well yeah, the sensor thingy should be redundant just in case. because put yourselves as passengers and you will understand what I am trying to say. yes things can fail and a good pilot will try to fly till the airplane crashes or lands. yes the 2 planes that crashed did have bad pilots. and I am not saying it should replace training. but if it had had a redundant system or a light that said "hey stupid, I am giving you wrong information, instead of being sold as an option. well that is scary.
and again put yourselves in a situation whre you know nothing about airplanes like me. and I am overly exaggerating here, and you hear a pilot say, after the fact, yes the gas truck took off the wingtip but no need to fix it. I am a trained professional and I can fly it. and I gave you this example just to prove a point to us passengers, that's what you guys sound like. I do agree pilot training had a big thing to do with it, but what I worry about is pilots saying well it it's a non-issue, instead of saying we train for it, but it should be fixed.
I am not trolling any of you guys, just giving you my thoughts as a passenger.
semp
Look, the issue is pilot standards. They can put in all the "fixes" in the world to MCAS and still not think of everything. One day the cheese holes will line up and bang. You better have someone up front who knows what the hell he is doing.
I've said it a million times and I'll say it again: HUMAN FACTORS CAN ONLY BE MITIGATED--NEVER ELIMINATED (from pilots to software engineers). This also counts with automation. The human is the only infinitely flexible part of the system. When HAL9000 decides to leave the pod bay doors closed the only solution is a human--and with the idiots we have programming things now, they are actually taking us out of the loop more and more.
If you want the problem solved then demand that the airlines you fly on train and maintain to the highest level. Don't complain when the ticket prices go up.
ALSO, DO NOT FLY THIRD WORLD CARRIERS. EVER. This is a problem that WILL NEVER GO AWAY in places like Africa, Cuba, India, etc. It's the nature of the game there.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: guncrasher on December 23, 2019, 01:21:07 AM
Look, the issue is pilot standards. They can put in all the "fixes" in the world to MCAS and still not think of everything. One day the cheese holes will line up and bang. You better have someone up front who knows what the hell he is doing.
I've said it a million times and I'll say it again: HUMAN FACTORS CAN ONLY BE MITIGATED--NEVER ELIMINATED (from pilots to software engineers). This also counts with automation. The human is the only infinitely flexible part of the system. When HAL9000 decides to leave the pod bay doors closed the only solution is a human--and with the idiots we have programming things now, they are actually taking us out of the loop more and more.
If you want the problem solved then demand that the airlines you fly on train and maintain to the highest level. Don't complain when the ticket prices go up.
ALSO, DO NOT FLY THIRD WORLD CARRIERS. EVER. This is a problem that WILL NEVER GO AWAY in places like Africa, Cuba, India, etc. It's the nature of the game there.
it's your job to point this things out, instead of saying we can train more because the programmers are idiots.
you still dont get that part.
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 01:51:51 AM
yeah, the programmers are idiots and they keep us out of the loop, but it's a non-issue, I'll just train more. I'll just keep saying nothing is wrong.
semp
What do you recommend they do then! No training? Duplicate AF447? Let the software engineers over-think the design parameters and cause negative feedback?
How about full computer autonomy? Will that work for you?
I think we should stop selling airplanes to third world countries until they prove their training and maintenance are worthy of the product.
It's always about training. Training rates the day when the chips are down. That's why we do it.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 23, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
not saying ignored by the manufacturer, or perhaps it is. but ignored by you guys. redundant systems, a single sensor used that can fail because somebody was chewing bubble gum and left it there and forgot about it. I dont hear from you guys saying that. I want to hear from you guys say, well yeah, the sensor thingy should be redundant just in case. because put yourselves as passengers and you will understand what I am trying to say. yes things can fail and a good pilot will try to fly till the airplane crashes or lands. yes the 2 planes that crashed did have bad pilots. and I am not saying it should replace training. but if it had had a redundant system or a light that said "hey stupid, I am giving you wrong information, instead of being sold as an option. well that is scary.
and again put yourselves in a situation whre you know nothing about airplanes like me. and I am overly exaggerating here, and you hear a pilot say, after the fact, yes the gas truck took off the wingtip but no need to fix it. I am a trained professional and I can fly it. and I gave you this example just to prove a point to us passengers, that's what you guys sound like. I do agree pilot training had a big thing to do with it, but what I worry about is pilots saying well it it's a non-issue, instead of saying we train for it, but it should be fixed.
I am not trolling any of you guys, just giving you my thoughts as a passenger.
semp
Two sensors disagree. Now what?
What should be fixed is letting unqualified pilots fly poorly maintained aircraft.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 09:29:59 AM
What should be fixed is letting unqualified pilots fly poorly maintained aircraft.
“But...but....Misseur, zet ees impossible. Zee airplen ees not designed to break thees way.” :old:
- Popular Dassault Falcon Tech Rep Joke
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: davidpt40 on December 23, 2019, 09:39:17 AM
You have the answer right there. It is a complex computerized plane. It appears that only a percentage of airlines have pilots who are skilled and trained enough to fly it. It should not be sold to those airlines that do not meet the training requirements. However, Boeing isn't the saintly company that you all believe it is. Their job is to make money. This is why these big goofy engines were added to the 737 in the first place, to compete with Airbus. All the current trouble stems from them being far forward of previous enginge placement. Poor aerodynamic design.
I wonder if Boeing knew about the rudder trouble on early 737s before the first crash happened?
but what I worry about is pilots saying well it it's a non-issue, instead of saying we train for it, but it should be fixed.
I am not trolling any of you guys, just giving you my thoughts as a passenger.
semp
It’s doubtful you’ll find a pilot, especially ones with 737 type ratings, saying “it’s a non-issue”. Modern airliners are high tech machines with double, and sometimes triple, redundant systems. It’s takes a highly trained and experienced pair of pilots to safely operate them with the ultimate goal on every flight to deliver you safely to your destination. It is not uncommon for an airliner to have a system malfunction, the pilots deal with it IAW the QRH, and continue on safely to your destination without you, as a passenger, aware of it. The ultimate goal is for you, as a passenger, to have a safe and uneventful flight to your destination. If you fly anywhere on a third world airline, pay your money and take your chances.
The root cause of this whole discussion about the two third world 737 crashes is “experienced pilots”. The whole political uproar, Boeing bashing(yes, Boeing deserves a massive bloody nose for hiding the MCAS from operators), and highly misinformed public opinion about this overlooks the root cause of these accidents: inexperienced pilots.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 09:48:18 AM
You have the answer right there. It is a complex computerized plane. It appears that only a percentage of airlines have pilots who are skilled and trained enough to fly it. It should not be sold to those airlines that do not meet the training requirements. However, Boeing isn't the saintly company that you all believe it is. Their job is to make money. This is why these big goofy engines were added to the 737 in the first place, to compete with Airbus. All the current trouble stems from them being far forward of previous enginge placement. Poor aerodynamic design.
I wonder if Boeing knew about the rudder trouble on early 737s before the first crash happened?
You all????
None of these companies are saintly. Embraer comes the closest, but I still have a tiny bit of suspicion about the Gol midair. Everyone blamed the crew for doing something that’s physically impossible as posited.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Wiley on December 23, 2019, 10:35:17 AM
yeah, the programmers are idiots and they keep us out of the loop, but it's a non-issue, I'll just train more. I'll just keep saying nothing is wrong.
semp
As another (infrequent) passenger, what I'm getting out of the guys that are talking about training is, our heads would probably collectively explode if we knew how many of the "innocuous" issues are corrected by flight crews every day. The point is, what should be an incident that gets reported for a good pilot becomes a crash when it's not.
Stuff shouldn't break, but generally speaking it appears the flight crew should be able to deal with the way things do break, and specifically should be able to deal with the way these planes are breaking for the most part.
I don't see anyone saying "and therefore there's no problem with the plane." What I hear is "the flight crews should be able to deal with this kind of failure, and they didn't in this case." which is a pretty reasonable thing to say IMO.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: guncrasher on December 23, 2019, 10:40:22 AM
Puma, I actually have seen pilots saying it's a non issue in here.
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Puma44 on December 23, 2019, 10:56:11 AM
Puma, I actually have seen pilots saying it's a non issue in here.
semp
Point being that if a pair of well trained and experienced pilots handled these jets properly, it would have been an uncomfortable ride vs loss of life for all concerned.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 11:42:17 AM
Puma, I actually have seen pilots saying it's a non issue in here.
semp
If you don't want to risk getting killed in a plane crash don't fly planes. :old:
NOBODY said it is a non-isssue. What we've said, repeatedly, is pilot/maintenance standards/training are woefully inadequate in some countries. What do you want Boeing to do? Reposses the airplanes? I have a better idea, let's stop building them altogether. Then nobody can get killed with one.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 23, 2019, 12:03:46 PM
You have the answer right there. It is a complex computerized plane. It appears that only a percentage of airlines have pilots who are skilled and trained enough to fly it. It should not be sold to those airlines that do not meet the training requirements. However, Boeing isn't the saintly company that you all believe it is. Their job is to make money. This is why these big goofy engines were added to the 737 in the first place, to compete with Airbus. All the current trouble stems from them being far forward of previous enginge placement. Poor aerodynamic design.
I wonder if Boeing knew about the rudder trouble on early 737s before the first crash happened?
David, I would like to know if you have any aeronautics background or flying time. I mean no disrespect; I wanted to know whether your comment of poor aerodynamic design came from education or opinion.
Aircraft have not been aerodynamically since the aeronca champ. An airplane is a vehicle being pushed, shoved, pulled through a fluid. When we observe a boat going fast through water we can see the forces acting upon the vessel. Airplanes are no different - the aerodynamic forces are extreme. Over the years of development, the engineers have come up with hundreds of improvements to make airplanes more stable...vortex generators, mach trim compensators, naca wing shaping and many more examples make an aircraft that might otherwise demonstrate mishandling at high speeds, a stable platform. Unlike constantly operating systems that make the airplane a stable platform, MCAS was only designed to intervene when the airplane was mishandled.
As to Boeing's responsibility for pilot training, all airlines when they purchase a new type be it Airbus or Boeing, send their Check/Instructor pilots to the manufacturer for detailed training not only on how to fly the type but how to teach other pilots how to operate the airplane to standard. Airlines are not going to send their entire pilot group to the manufacturer and whether Boeing needs to police the pilot standards maintained by all their customers or whether that authority belongs to the Government Regulator (ie FAA) is for the politicians to decide.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Zimme83 on December 23, 2019, 12:28:39 PM
The problem with the 737 is that its old as f*ck and all the modifications made have changed the aerodynamics of the original plane significantly. There are not enough room for the bigger engines so they had to be mounted in front of the wing. But this messed up the aerodynamics since they produce a lot of lift at higher AoA. This means that the stick force are decreasing when AoA is increasing. Thus the need for MCAS to comply with the regulations. Unfortunately the design of the MCAS was quite bad thats why Boeing are in this situation. On a fly-by-wire aircraft this would not have been that big of an issue since it could have been dealt with in the control software, but the MAX doesnt have that...
The selling point of the MAX was also that no additional training was needed to transit from the NG, so the MAX pilots wasnt really given a chance to handle a MCAS failure since it couldnt even be tested in the simulator. With proper proficiency training it might have been different, but Boeing didnt want that.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 23, 2019, 12:35:27 PM
The problem with the 737 is that its old as f*ck and all the modifications made have changed the aerodynamics of the original plane significantly. There are not enough room for the bigger engines so they had to be mounted in front of the wing. But this messed up the aerodynamics since they produce a lot of lift at higher AoA. This means that the stick force are decreasing when AoA is increasing. Thus the need for MCAS to comply with the regulations. Unfortunately the design of the MCAS was quite bad thats why Boeing are in this situation. On a fly-by-wire aircraft this would not have been that big of an issue since it could have been dealt with in the control software, but the MAX doesnt have that...
The selling point of the MAX was also that no additional training was needed to transit from the NG, so the MAX pilots wasnt really given a chance to handle a MCAS failure since it couldnt even be tested in the simulator. With proper proficiency training it might have been different, but Boeing didnt want that.
As Charles Dickens wrote "but most of all, beware this boy...."
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 23, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
You have the answer right there. It is a complex computerized plane. It appears that only a percentage of airlines have pilots who are skilled and trained enough to fly it. It should not be sold to those airlines that do not meet the training requirements. However, Boeing isn't the saintly company that you all believe it is. Their job is to make money. This is why these big goofy engines were added to the 737 in the first place, to compete with Airbus. All the current trouble stems from them being far forward of previous enginge placement. Poor aerodynamic design.
I wonder if Boeing knew about the rudder trouble on early 737s before the first crash happened?
You are wrong about almost everything you said. You seem to have read a few things you don't understand.
The sensor that failed is in all commercial aircraft. Everything else, except the pilots, worked properly.
The pilots that crashed were certified by basically the same people that said it wasn't their fault.
Neither of the accidents were caused by the upgraded engines and the change in the thrust line that the MCAS was added for.
Boeing makes money by building good products. The assumption that profit over-rides safety is an unwarranted slander.
If you want to be clever about motivation think about how Airbus can benefit by pushing stories that Boeing is greedy, because profits are evil, and they don't care about safety.
There are probably still people who think a Toyota could accelerate by pressing the brake pedal.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 23, 2019, 12:47:37 PM
The problem with the 737 is that its old as f*ck and all the modifications made have changed the aerodynamics of the original plane significantly. There are not enough room for the bigger engines so they had to be mounted in front of the wing. But this messed up the aerodynamics since they produce a lot of lift at higher AoA. This means that the stick force are decreasing when AoA is increasing. Thus the need for MCAS to comply with the regulations. Unfortunately the design of the MCAS was quite bad thats why Boeing are in this situation. On a fly-by-wire aircraft this would not have been that big of an issue since it could have been dealt with in the control software, but the MAX doesnt have that...
The selling point of the MAX was also that no additional training was needed to transit from the NG, so the MAX pilots wasnt really given a chance to handle a MCAS failure since it couldnt even be tested in the simulator. With proper proficiency training it might have been different, but Boeing didnt want that.
There was no MCAS failure. It was a local training and certification issue.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 01:23:52 PM
The problem with the 737 is that its old as f*ck and all the modifications made have changed the aerodynamics of the original plane significantly. There are not enough room for the bigger engines so they had to be mounted in front of the wing. But this messed up the aerodynamics since they produce a lot of lift at higher AoA.
Engines do not produce lift. They produce thrust.
Underslung engines tend to cause the nose to pitch up when power is added, and vice versa. It's a known dynamic. Your alternative is to ride the train.
Yes, the airplane is old, but so what? That doesn't make it flawed. It makes it outdated perhaps, but if the customers want it that way that's what they get. Southwest's tail has wagged the dog for years on the 737. It is what it is, but that doesn't make it a bad airplane.
Quote
This means that the stick force are decreasing when AoA is increasing. Thus the need for MCAS to comply with the regulations.
This is no different than the STS that's been on the 737 for decades.
Quote
Unfortunately the design of the MCAS was quite bad thats why Boeing are in this situation. On a fly-by-wire aircraft this would not have been that big of an issue since it could have been dealt with in the control software, but the MAX doesnt have that...
Air France 447. Fully-automated computer fly-by-wire flight control system. Fly-by-wire. *cough* *cough* 228 deaths.
The problem with the 737 is too much software, not too little. That aside, the steps for solving the problem remain the same. Disconnect the system if it malfunctions. This crew re-engaged it--after remaining at takeoff thrust to well beyond the certified Vmo speed. Fly-by-wire won't save you there.
Quote
The selling point of the MAX was also that no additional training was needed to transit from the NG, so the MAX pilots wasnt really given a chance to handle a MCAS failure since it couldnt even be tested in the simulator. With proper proficiency training it might have been different, but Boeing didnt want that.
We do it all the time in the 737 NG with the STS. Almost the exact same system. Exact same results. The response to the problem is exactly the same with MCAS as it is with STS.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Oldman731 on December 23, 2019, 03:15:23 PM
And still there's this (Sullenberger commenting on Langewiesche):
In “What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 MAX?” William Langewiesche draws the conclusion that the pilots are primarily to blame for the fatal crashes of Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 302. In resurrecting this age-old aviation canard, Langewiesche minimizes the fatal design flaws and certification failures that precipitated those tragedies, and still pose a threat to the flying public. I have long stated, as he does note, that pilots must be capable of absolute mastery of the aircraft and the situation at all times, a concept pilots call airmanship. Inadequate pilot training and insufficient pilot experience are problems worldwide, but they do not excuse the fatally flawed design of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) that was a death trap. As one of the few pilots who have lived to tell about being in the left seat of an airliner when things went horribly wrong, with seconds to react, I know a thing or two about overcoming an unimagined crisis. I am also one of the few who have flown a Boeing 737 MAX Level D full motion simulator, replicating both accident flights multiple times. I know firsthand the challenges the pilots on the doomed accident flights faced, and how wrong it is to blame them for not being able to compensate for such a pernicious and deadly design. These emergencies did not present as a classic runaway stabilizer problem, but initially as ambiguous unreliable airspeed and altitude situations, masking MCAS. The MCAS design should never have been approved, not by Boeing, and not by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The National Transportation Safety Board has found that Boeing made faulty assumptions both about the capability of the aircraft design to withstand damage or failure, and the level of human performance possible once the failures began to cascade. Where Boeing failed, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) should have stepped in to regulate but it failed to do so. Lessons from accidents are bought in blood and we must seek all the answers to prevent the next one. We need to fix all the flaws in the current system — corporate governance, regulatory oversight, aircraft maintenance, and yes, pilot training and experience. Only then can we ensure the safety of everyone who flies.
Sullenberger reported that the recreations of the crashes showed that a failed AoA sensor simultaneously generated a false “stick-shaker” (too slow) and “clacker” (too fast) warnings. “Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time and altitude before they could have solved the problems,” he testified.
And still there's this (Sullenberger commenting on Langewiesche):
In “What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 MAX?” William Langewiesche draws the conclusion that the pilots are primarily to blame for the fatal crashes of Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 302. In resurrecting this age-old aviation canard, Langewiesche minimizes the fatal design flaws and certification failures that precipitated those tragedies, and still pose a threat to the flying public. I have long stated, as he does note, that pilots must be capable of absolute mastery of the aircraft and the situation at all times, a concept pilots call airmanship. Inadequate pilot training and insufficient pilot experience are problems worldwide, but they do not excuse the fatally flawed design of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) that was a death trap. As one of the few pilots who have lived to tell about being in the left seat of an airliner when things went horribly wrong, with seconds to react, I know a thing or two about overcoming an unimagined crisis. I am also one of the few who have flown a Boeing 737 MAX Level D full motion simulator, replicating both accident flights multiple times. I know firsthand the challenges the pilots on the doomed accident flights faced, and how wrong it is to blame them for not being able to compensate for such a pernicious and deadly design. These emergencies did not present as a classic runaway stabilizer problem, but initially as ambiguous unreliable airspeed and altitude situations, masking MCAS. The MCAS design should never have been approved, not by Boeing, and not by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The National Transportation Safety Board has found that Boeing made faulty assumptions both about the capability of the aircraft design to withstand damage or failure, and the level of human performance possible once the failures began to cascade. Where Boeing failed, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) should have stepped in to regulate but it failed to do so. Lessons from accidents are bought in blood and we must seek all the answers to prevent the next one. We need to fix all the flaws in the current system — corporate governance, regulatory oversight, aircraft maintenance, and yes, pilot training and experience. Only then can we ensure the safety of everyone who flies.
Sullenberger reported that the recreations of the crashes showed that a failed AoA sensor simultaneously generated a false “stick-shaker” (too slow) and “clacker” (too fast) warnings. “Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time and altitude before they could have solved the problems,” he testified.
We're all pretty sick of Sullenberger. And that Southwest chick Tammy Jo. Like enough already, people.
Sully is just being contrarian so he can sound smart. He's not.
"Look at me. I'm awesome. Blah blah blah blah."
The only thing that saved him was the Hudson River. I had that identical scenario in a Citation III simulator back in the day, long before he did it. I did the exact same thing. Had it happened somewhere else I might have wound up in a building.
You can't mask the MCAS with that trim wheel. It makes one hell of a racket and when it trims the way you don't want it to you turn it off.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 23, 2019, 04:50:27 PM
I'm guessing Sullenberger recovered each time in the simulator since he fails to mention that.
Nobody is against an improved MCAS, the point is that the MCAS did what it was designed to do and the FAA had signed off on it.
The loss of reliable airspeed and altitude information is not the biggest problem in VFR conditions when you've left the throttles at takeoff thrust.
The issue I have with Sullenberger here is the notion that Langewiesche promotes an "age old aviation canard" that the pilots are mostly to blame. He must know that most aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. So it's not a canard, a false statement, it's the usual reason. He even agrees with it right after calling it false to deplatform Langewiesche.
He's correct that the accidents revealed issues with the MCAS, but that's not the main reason for both crashes. The pilots weren't ready to fly the plane when the automation failed.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: davidpt40 on December 23, 2019, 05:26:11 PM
You are wrong about almost everything you said. You seem to have read a few things you don't understand.
The sensor that failed is in all commercial aircraft. Everything else, except the pilots, worked properly.
The pilots that crashed were certified by basically the same people that said it wasn't their fault.
Neither of the accidents were caused by the upgraded engines and the change in the thrust line that the MCAS was added for.
Boeing makes money by building good products. The assumption that profit over-rides safety is an unwarranted slander.
If you want to be clever about motivation think about how Airbus can benefit by pushing stories that Boeing is greedy, because profits are evil, and they don't care about safety.
There are probably still people who think a Toyota could accelerate by pressing the brake pedal.
Why does the 737 Max need an MCAS at all? Because Boeing put much larger engines on the aicraft which could not be simply placed under the wing like the current engines. They have to be placed far forward of the wing, and as such, throttle increases now result in the aircraft pitching up. Pitching up enough to potentially stall the aircraft, and needing a complicated software system with sensors that have turned into this giagantic mess.
Do you think that is a pretty good aerodynamic design?
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 05:40:16 PM
Why does the 737 Max need an MCAS at all? Because Boeing put much larger engines on the aicraft which could not be simply placed under the wing like the current engines. They have to be placed far forward of the wing, and as such, throttle increases now result in the aircraft pitching up. Pitching up enough to potentially stall the aircraft, and needing a complicated software system with sensors that have turned into this giagantic mess.
Do you think that is a pretty good aerodynamic design?
Oh, boy... :bhead
Listen carefully: This exact same type of system in the NG is called the STS. STS = MCAS
STS and MCAS are intended for use at the extreme edge of the flight envelope, a regime almost never encountered. It’s a certification requirement, not a day-to-day feature that’s regularly needed or used.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. It’s beginning to sound like trolling at this point.
The airplane has always pitched up with power increases. It’s a byproduct of underslung engines. The -200 didn’t do it as much as the -300 etc. but it’s a common trait. That’s why many designs still use aft-mounted engines (which have their own set of characteristics).
Heck, the Cessna 152 pitches up with power increases, and it is one of the best trainers ever built.
Good grief. I’m seriously done with this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 23, 2019, 06:15:16 PM
Why does the 737 Max need an MCAS at all? Because Boeing put much larger engines on the aicraft which could not be simply placed under the wing like the current engines. They have to be placed far forward of the wing, and as such, throttle increases now result in the aircraft pitching up. Pitching up enough to potentially stall the aircraft, and needing a complicated software system with sensors that have turned into this giagantic mess.
Do you think that is a pretty good aerodynamic design?
I don't think it's an accurate description of the upgraded engines.
The MCAS system is designed to pitch down in the unlikely event that the 737MAX approaches the critical angle of attack with high power. That's to avoid a stall where the nose falls off to one side. That's the time you're likely to notice the higher thrust line difference. For your normal flying it's not a problem, it's not even noticeable. It wasn't a factor in the accidents.
The accidents occurred in VFR conditions that you can fly without instruments.
A faulty sensor wasn't fixed and the pilots weren't ready to go.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 06:19:21 PM
I don't think it's an accurate description of the upgraded engines.
The MCAS system is designed to pitch down in the unlikely event that the 737MAX approaches the critical angle of attack with high power. That's to avoid a stall where the nose falls off to one side. That's the time you're likely to notice the higher thrust line difference. For your normal flying it's not a problem, it's not even noticeable. It wasn't a factor in the accidents.
The accidents occurred in VFR conditions that you can fly without instruments.
A faulty sensor wasn't fixed and the pilots weren't ready to go.
It’s for extreme aft CG controllability at low speeds. It is in effect a pitch augmentation system to get the nose down with the airplane loaded to the rear. This is almost never seen. In fact, in normal ops the opposite is usually the case.
Nose falloff in a stall is normal for many airplanes, even something like a 777. It’s not a big deal.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 23, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
If you take off in AH3 and select auto-speed you may find yourself diving down with runaway trim. Some people crash, some turn it off. :D
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 23, 2019, 07:13:53 PM
I politely asked davidpt40 to provide me with his background in aviation and thus far we have nothing. But he does play Aces High - if that makes a pilot.
How did we come to the point where everyone's opinion is formed in comfort, rather than living in the discomfort of learning (my apologies to JFK for paraphrasing his great words)?
Maybe its time to stop using the word "fault" when discussing these and any other accidents. No pilot goes to work planning to die and contrary to some beliefs, no airplane manufacturer cuts corners with the idea what it won't like kill too many. Lets leave that to the car makers - Examples available on request.
There are many contributing factors to every accident. The MCAS was a contributor but it was only one.
To my fellow airmen, you command my greatest respect. Don't allow the trolls to frustrate you as much as they do me. :angry:
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 07:32:14 PM
I want to hear from you guys say, well yeah, the sensor thingy should be redundant just in case. semp
Is that what the mainstream media told you was necessary? Because they don't understand modern aviation either.
The aircraft I teach has TWO REDUNDANT AOA SENSOR "THINGIES". Guess what? If EITHER sensor malfunctioned that malfunctioning sensor ALONE, ALL BY ITSELF, will trigger the "stick pusher", which will repeatedly push the nose down as long as the malfunctioning sensor is not promptly disabled (by a competent, trained pilot I might add.)
So there you are. REDUNDANT sensors pushing the nose down! Does this confuse you?
It shouldn't. Because when the aircraft has redundant sensors, when one goes bad the aircraft designers make the system do the safest thing. Without the pilot determining which sensor is correct, the default is to use the sensor that senses the stall.
Which answers this accurately put question the FLS asked you:
What should be fixed is letting unqualified pilots fly poorly maintained aircraft.
In short, if Boeing had the MCAS using BOTH AVAILABLE SENSORS ON THE AIRCRAFT (there are two) the MCAS would STILL have activated when only ONE sensor malfunctioned. Because that is the safest thing to do until A COMPETENT, TRAINED PILOT analyses the situation and disables the malfunctioning sensor.
I bet you are still confused.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Toad on December 23, 2019, 07:58:03 PM
These emergencies did not present as a classic runaway stabilizer problem, but initially as ambiguous unreliable airspeed and altitude situations, masking MCAS.
- oldman
Indeed, an AOA malfunction, which was the initial problem in both the Lion Air and Ethiopian crashes, does NOT present as a classic runaway problem.
No, it presented as a classic AOA malfunction. That is, the pilot gets a stick shaker when the plane is nowhere near stall speed. Now if the pilot reacts to the classic AOA malfunction with the classic Pitch + Power = Performance response, the MCAS will never activate.
Further if the classic pilot moves the flaps up and the nose immediately pitches down, the classic pilot will immediately return the flaps to their previous position. Again, the MCAS cannot activate.
And you don't need to know a damn thing about MCAS to survive a classic AOA malfunction with those two classic pilot responses.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 23, 2019, 10:01:25 PM
This thread is golden. However, this Davidpt guy is clearly trolling you all with propaganda and isn't rationalizing anything you guys say. He's pushing an agenda.
He obviously believes that Boeing is "muh evil greedy corporate business" that don't care about nothing but "evil profits that only go right in the owners pocket". Do you really believe a company would risk billions in lawsuits, contracts, and integrity to do something stupid and put millions at risk?
Literally 2 planes in sweet Africa go down and we have a world wide crisis that is crippling a major aeronautical business worldwide. Think about that.
The real question is, why the attack on Boeing? CEO just resigned today. What's the real reason the media is so outraged? Why do they really hate Boeing now?
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Oldman731 on December 23, 2019, 11:12:43 PM
Indeed, an AOA malfunction, which was the initial problem in both the Lion Air and Ethiopian crashes, does NOT present as a classic runaway problem.
No, it presented as a classic AOA malfunction. That is, the pilot gets a stick shaker when the plane is nowhere near stall speed. Now if the pilot reacts to the classic AOA malfunction with the classic Pitch + Power = Performance response, the MCAS will never activate.
I bolded the quote because so many people have said that the malfunction instantly should have been recognized as runaway trim.
I have to tell you that this makes me happy I do not have to fly (or, viewed correctly, I am not permitted to fly) a plane with all these automated features. I am very content that a 3-axis autopilot is all I've got.
- oldman
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 11:51:57 PM
I bolded the quote because so many people have said that the malfunction instantly should have been recognized as runaway trim.
I have to tell you that this makes me happy I do not have to fly (or, viewed correctly, I am not permitted to fly) a plane with all these automated features. I am very content that a 3-axis autopilot is all I've got.
- oldman
It doesn’t HAVE to be instantly recognized. But it doesn’t take very long to realize the jet is trimming opposite of what you want. We are talking a couple of seconds.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Toad on December 24, 2019, 08:58:02 AM
I bolded the quote because so many people have said that the malfunction instantly should have been recognized as runaway trim.
- oldman
In the case of an actual runaway trim situation, runaway trim is very easily and quickly recognized as Vraciu pointed out. Particularly in the Boeings where the big dinner plate sized black trim wheel is whirling away right next to your knee.
After the first links in the accident chains were incorrectly recognized and incorrectly dealt with then, yes, Lion Air and Ethiopian would likely look like runaway trim. Had THAT link in the accident chain been recognized and dealt with per the QRH...once again....no accident.
The point being that there were several opportunities for the pilots to break either one of these accident chains. They failed to do so.
But...yeah...blame Boeing. (Not that Boeing is blameless either. The root cause, however, isn't the aircraft. As some here will apparently never "get".)
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: davidpt40 on December 24, 2019, 04:25:34 PM
In the case of an actual runaway trim situation, runaway trim is very easily and quickly recognized as Vraciu pointed out. Particularly in the Boeings where the big dinner plate sized black trim wheel is whirling away right next to your knee.
After the first links in the accident chains were incorrectly recognized and incorrectly dealt with then, yes, Lion Air and Ethiopian would likely look like runaway trim. Had THAT link in the accident chain been recognized and dealt with per the QRH...once again....no accident.
The point being that there were several opportunities for the pilots to break either one of these accident chains. They failed to do so.
But...yeah...blame Boeing. (Not that Boeing is blameless either. The root cause, however, isn't the aircraft. As some here will apparently never "get".)
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 24, 2019, 05:00:34 PM
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
You're kidding, right?
And let's not pretend a DC-9 has never had a trim runaway.
A trim runaway is a trim runaway is a trim runaway. It doesn't matter what the cause is. The response is the same.
You feel it in the yoke. You hear it with the aural trim movement indicator:
- In the Falcon it is a machine gun clacker, "Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit." - In the 145/Legacy it is Ms. Embraer saying, "*DING* Trim." - In the Boeing it is a giant wheel right next to your leg going, "KA-CHUNK! KA-CHUNK! KA-CHUNK!"
When that occurs you turn it off. Fly the airplane. Sort the problem. You do *NOT* continue at takeoff thrust up to 350+ KIAS and then turn the thing back on.
The crew blew it in part because the guy in the right seat couldn't fly to literally save his life.
There is no sugar coating it.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 24, 2019, 05:04:04 PM
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
And just to add, pilots had to "FLY" the DC-9. It's automation required steam.
So these 2 likely would not have gotten it into the air.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Puma44 on December 24, 2019, 05:34:25 PM
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
If there IS a complicated equipment malfunction, two competent pilots would maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation, take the proper action, maintain situational awareness, and land the aircraft safely at the nearest suitable airport. Blaming the aircraft when the pilots are incapable of maintaining aircraft control is not the root cause, no matter how much spin is put on it.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Vraciu on December 24, 2019, 06:01:01 PM
And just to add, pilots had to "FLY" the DC-9. It's automation required steam.
So these 2 likely would not have gotten it into the air.
That's right. They would have run it off the end.
There are DC-9 and MD-80 carcasses littered all over Africa.
I landed over the top of this one in Port Harcourt, Nigeria... The guy I replaced as Standards Captain at one outfit once tried to do the same thing--with me in the right seat. I politely suggested it was not a good idea. Thankfully Aero was holding short and told us not to bother because of standing water, which prevented what could have become a pretty tense disagreement had he insisted on attempting it. It was a good thing he was flying with another Captain (me) because had he been with one of our F/Os they would have wound up in the mud with a busted up airplane.
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
And I forgot to add, take a couple of guys with little background in flying airplanes.... let me correct that.... 1 guy with little background and another with none... then you teach them to work the computers in a high performance jet... then the computers break so they have to fly it.... oh that's right... they don't know how. How's that for your root cause Davey?
Sheesh :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: FLS on December 24, 2019, 06:43:59 PM
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
There was no complicated equipment failure. There was a simple sensor failure in a complicated aircraft.
Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Toad on December 24, 2019, 06:54:06 PM
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
An AOA malfunction is not a complicated equipment malfunction. Handle that, as competent pilots will, and there is no crash.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Toad on December 25, 2019, 07:41:34 AM
Not to be too pedantic on Christmas Eve, but have you ever been part of a Root Cause Investigation? If there is no complicated equipment malfunction, there is no crash. That is the root cause. If these guys had been flying a DC-9 instead of a 737 Max, the folks would still be alive. The "root cause" is the complicated aircraft malfunction.
No, I have not ever been part of a "Root Cause Investigation".
While I'm not sure if an NTSB crash investigation qualifies as such, they do usually conclude with a "probable cause" finding.
Given that, I think I'll go with Mr. Feith (Investigator in Charge of the NTSB “Go-Team” from 1993 to 2001):
Quote
“The NTSC stated the pilots, especially the First Officer, had significant training deficiencies and lacked basic flying skills. These same deficiencies occurred during the accident flight. These two pilots had no business being in the cockpit and the airplane should not have been operated because of all the maintenance issues that began at the beginning of October, and were not corrected, making the airplane unairworthy.”
Given that, I'll agree with Mr. Feith. I think the primary causal factor is unqualified pilots.
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: guncrasher on December 26, 2019, 06:20:16 AM
This thread is golden. However, this Davidpt guy is clearly trolling you all with propaganda and isn't rationalizing anything you guys say. He's pushing an agenda.
He obviously believes that Boeing is "muh evil greedy corporate business" that don't care about nothing but "evil profits that only go right in the owners pocket". Do you really believe a company would risk billions in lawsuits, contracts, and integrity to do something stupid and put millions at risk?
Literally 2 planes in sweet Africa go down and we have a world wide crisis that is crippling a major aeronautical business worldwide. Think about that.
The real question is, why the attack on Boeing? CEO just resigned today. What's the real reason the media is so outraged? Why do they really hate Boeing now?
if I was you I would keep this in the down low, I heard k girl has like 20,000 deaths to her name. if you need help, I'll stand with you bro, I am scared I need a hug.
semp
Title: Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
Post by: Busher on December 26, 2019, 06:13:29 PM
A bit of dry NY Times reading but at least some one's talking about pilot standards.