Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: nopoop on June 26, 2022, 02:34:22 PM
Title: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 26, 2022, 02:34:22 PM
It seems to me is that the G6 is pretty much the 109 of choice of most of which I'm seeing.
With cannon pods ?
It's not the fastest, Doesn't turn well. I'm at a loss at how lethal you guys fly this bird.
Any time I've flown it, it is a trip to the tower...quickly.
As a beginning 109'er, what are the cardinal rules in flying it well. Read the articles at the website on planes. Makes it seem to be easy.
It is not. Any tips you can share ?
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: The Fugitive on June 26, 2022, 04:10:57 PM
Ill be watching this thread. I like the G2 better than the G6, I just seem to handle it a bit better.
Still trying to figure out throttle control, when to chop to "0", or half and when to hammer it again.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Devil 505 on June 26, 2022, 04:33:09 PM
I assume you are referring to MA use, in which case the G-6 is probably the worst choice of all the 109's. He has no advantage over the typical MA aircraft.
Since it seems like you want something that turns better, try the G-2 or F-4. G-2 turns well and can climb better than most MA opponents. The F-4 turns even better, but it lacks the engine power of the G-2. Without gondolas, the guns are the same in both. Just avoid a turn fight against the usual turn fighters; Zekes, Brewsters, etc.
The gondolas add significant weight and drag. If you think you're likely to encounter bombers or Jugs, they will probably prove useful. Context is everything.
Learn to use the flaps. They are critical in 109's. Flaps can be deployed under 200 mph. They are especially useful at gaining angles at the top of a rolling scissors.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: SIK1 on June 26, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
What Devil said.
The G6 is my least favorite 109, the G2 is my favorite non K4 109, with the F4 closely behind.
The K4 is a monster performance wise, and I enjoy flying it. The down side of the K4 is hitting with the tater it can be frustrating for those like me that struggle with gunnery.
:salute Sik
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 26, 2022, 05:54:32 PM
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 26, 2022, 05:55:07 PM
G6 is best on the deck
109E the most fun
109F the dogfighter
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 26, 2022, 06:04:45 PM
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Eagler on June 26, 2022, 06:10:44 PM
I like the g2 with gonds better than any other 109 with gonds as it turns better
MA 109 guide...
Small dar bar 109f
Medium bar 109g2 with gonds
Large bar 109k4 as the horde will catch and kill you in the other two
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 26, 2022, 06:21:23 PM
Gondola's are not recommended for the inexperienced 109 flyer :old:
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 26, 2022, 07:08:32 PM
Thanks for the films. I see I'm going to have to learn deploying flaps.
A couple of "hair on fire" fights which I love. But your outcomes are much better than mine. Love them regardless.
Eagler thanks. Inexperienced but Gondo's is a necessity with me because my gunnery sucks..
I can't plink lol.
Fugi, keep us updated. I love the discussions. I read the website plane discussions, I reread them practically daily on the different planes I fly.
What small sucess I achieve is mostly in the Yak3. But the seafire is the most fun even though I rarely succeed. Had a Yak3 that b&z'd me jeez about 10 times. He finally gave up and I counted it as a victory with alot of fun.
Keep advise coming !!
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on June 26, 2022, 07:27:45 PM
Ditch the gondolas and don't take bad shots.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 26, 2022, 08:46:02 PM
I can't FLS, I have a real hard time with "good" shots.
Took her up tonight and had a 2 kill sortie but ran out of gas and couldn't land them, had to ditch. Pretty agile, better than I expected with the gondies.
BUT those were co alt or below me. Forgot to try flaps, but what is going to be hard is cons with altitude.
Being that it felt pretty good from a maneuvering point of view, I'll try it without gondies, but that comes back to my crappy gunnery.
I had changed my POV to 92 a couple of weeks back because POV is the only way to make the cons "bigger" in the sight picture.
Went back to 107 and the bars of the canopy are much better. Going to keep that POV.
Fun stuff !!
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Oldman731 on June 26, 2022, 09:21:35 PM
I assume you are referring to MA use, in which case the G-6 is probably the worst choice of all the 109's. He has no advantage over the typical MA aircraft.
Yes. And no. The G6 is clearly the most difficult of the 109s in which to succeed, although in the MA I guess the Emil takes that prize. That's why Real Men fly the G6. And hey, its 12.7s can make a difference over those deer rifles on the Friederick and G2.
But the G6 has a huge advantage over many of the MA planes, principally in its climb and in its turn-with-flaps. Takes some practice, but it's a nice ride once you've become acquainted.
- oldman
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Devil 505 on June 26, 2022, 09:39:20 PM
Yes. And no. The G6 is clearly the most difficult of the 109s in which to succeed, although in the MA I guess the Emil takes that prize. That's why Real Men fly the G6. And hey, its 12.7s can make a difference over those deer rifles on the Friederick and G2.
But the G6 has a huge advantage over many of the MA planes, principally in its climb and in its turn-with-flaps. Takes some practice, but it's a nice ride once you've become acquainted.
- oldman
I think my missed my point. The Emil is top 15-ish in turn circle. That's an advantage over a vast majority of other aircraft. Sure it's speed and climb are sub-par and it's roll rate is garbage, but if you take an Emil to a CV fight you can find some decent success. Just avoid the Zekes.
The margin of advantage in turn and climb that the G-6 has is so little that almost every enemy has an exploitable advantage over the it.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on June 26, 2022, 11:19:26 PM
I can't FLS, I have a real hard time with "good" shots.
Took her up tonight and had a 2 kill sortie but ran out of gas and couldn't land them, had to ditch. Pretty agile, better than I expected with the gondies.
BUT those were co alt or below me. Forgot to try flaps, but what is going to be hard is cons with altitude.
Being that it felt pretty good from a maneuvering point of view, I'll try it without gondies, but that comes back to my crappy gunnery.
I had changed my POV to 92 a couple of weeks back because POV is the only way to make the cons "bigger" in the sight picture.
Went back to 107 and the bars of the canopy are much better. Going to keep that POV.
Fun stuff !!
Practice flying loops using flaps, fly tilted loops as well as pure vertical. Fly fast loops and as slow as you can. That will help you get a feel for flaps. Remember in general, flaps up to halfway down increase lift more than drag, after halfway you increase drag more than lift.
Look at speed and G in the HUD. The amount of G you can pull at a given speed is your turn performance. When you fly a flat sustained turn you can compare speed and G in different aircraft. You can also see the difference in turn performance from the weight of the gondolas or the weight of fuel.
Spend a little time with the LCGS in the TA to make sure you give sufficient lead to your turning shots.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 27, 2022, 01:03:08 AM
Thanks FLS !! What is the gunnery thing in the TA ?
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Eagler on June 27, 2022, 06:21:30 AM
You have flaps and you have trim
Setup your hotas so you can go from combat trim to manual trim max deflection with a button push..
That will give you an edge turning but will kill your speed
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on June 27, 2022, 07:37:27 AM
Thanks FLS !! What is the gunnery thing in the TA ?
Ctrl Tab to turn it on, then Tab to select the target you're looking at, then you see a green cross or two that show the lead required to hit the target. Put your gunsight on the green cross for proper lead. You'll need a buddy to be the target. Since guns and cannon have different ballistics there are two green crosses with mixed armament. The cannon generally requiring more lead.
You might also want to review this article on turning if the speed and G relationship isn't clearly understood. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/89-tactics/advanced-flight-concepts/1076-turning
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 27, 2022, 07:49:43 AM
That K key comes in handy at high speeds.
And if you absolutely must run gondolas because you like punishment, run the G2 to start. Once you start getting handle on things, are landing regular aces, surviving for long periods, out fighting 2v1s, swap to the G14 and repeat the process. This should take about 7-10 years.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Eagler on June 27, 2022, 08:22:21 AM
I believe it does
In a 109f t&b with a zero kicking ct off and going max trim gets me around faster than if I don't
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: SIK1 on June 27, 2022, 09:23:13 AM
Nopoop, if you would like to work on some of this stuff in the TA let me know what would be a good time for you.
Trim doesn't effect the total deflection of the elevators. As per hitech from another thread.
This is not correct. Aces high trim is exactly the same as moving your stick. But in real life this simply removes the pressure on the stick where you currently are holding it. If you are hands off in real life the stick moves when you adjust trim. This is accomplished by a tab on the back of the control surface which moves the opposite direction of which way you want the control surface to move.
This is how trim tabs work on almost all airplanes except a few that have a trimable horizontal stab or I have also seen simple spring adjustments on aileron trim on some planes.
Now the issue that we can not do like real life is that I can not remove pressure from your stick position with out you moving the stick. So if you would apply up trim you need to move stick forward to maintain the same pitch attitude. Now en order to still maintain full stick deflection the the scale of elevator to stick movement is adjusted as trim is so that you will stick have full stick deflection no matter where the trim is.
The only time trim can change your turn rates is when you are not elevator stop limited, but stick force limited because of high speed. In this case moving trim will add or decrease turn performance.
HiTech
:salute Sik
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on June 27, 2022, 09:35:31 AM
In a 109f t&b with a zero kicking ct off and going max trim gets me around faster than if I don't
Eagler
I believe it could help you but I'd be interested to see the numbers. It's likely it helps on the pilot input side since the max deflection is coded so it can't be increased by trim.
If you had substantial down trim you might regain full deflection with up trim.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 27, 2022, 11:31:47 AM
Interesting. I use combat trim only momentarily when I have changed attitudes as in a dive or to level or climb. On and right back to off.
Should I fly with it always on ??.
At medium to high speeds I always have enough stick for a blackout. When slow I always have enough stick to ride a stall. I just use CT to center my stick at a given attitude and turn it back off.
Should I just leave it on ?
Is CT when turned on enough to forgo manual trimming ?
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 27, 2022, 11:36:37 AM
And if you absolutely must run gondolas because you like punishment, run the G2 to start. Once you start getting handle on things, are landing regular aces, surviving for long periods, out fighting 2v1s, swap to the G14 and repeat the process. This should take about 7-10 years.
New signature line :aok
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: SIK1 on June 27, 2022, 01:42:58 PM
I don't use CT at all. I have found it easier for me to use manual trim along with the auto pilot. I have pitch and yaw trim mapped to a hat under my index finger on my throttle so it's just a matter of a button push to change the trim.
:salute
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2022, 02:02:12 PM
I have never touched trim in all my years here. I think it's all in y'alls heads... Just like those who turn off their engine for some theoretical advantage :confused:
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: SIK1 on June 27, 2022, 02:11:25 PM
To be clear I don't think trim gives any performance advantage. I use trim to reduce the pressure I have to apply to the stick to maintain the desired flight attitude.
Sent from my SM-A015U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 27, 2022, 02:39:33 PM
I use CT momentarily for the same result. It works well for that
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Shane on June 27, 2022, 02:53:32 PM
The secret to flying a 109 is multi-layered.
A. Throttle control B. Rudder control C. Easy on the stick D. WEP E. Climb Rate F. Gunnery - you're on your own for this, I suck at aiming and wept when they stole the gondies from the 109f's.
The 109 is so responsive to throttle inputs that it's definitely a factor in maneuvering. For most variants, wep gives a significant speed boost for as long as it lasts - which gives them that boosted climbrate.
The real secret, tho, imho, is using the rudder and throttle and when going for those hammerhead moves (or any over the top wingover) is letting the 109 get you there - forcing it is where you lose it.
The biggest threat to 109's are yaks and lala's when down low because they also possess great power/weight ratios and can hang with the 109's nose up until you get over 12-15k.
The 109's biggest tactical advantage is the ability to bleed the opponents e and from there stay nose up. Hogs, ponies, spits can only hang with a 109 for a limited amount of time and are most dangerous when you're doing downward scissors. If the 109 can take/keep the battle nose up, it will generally win.
The 109's are wonderful little rides - I've spent quite a bit of time in them in the old AVA/CT arena.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Eagler on June 27, 2022, 04:07:20 PM
Try it..
Get into a tight high turn with CT on..
Have manual trim set to a rotor with that rotor maxed up..
Have a button to turn CT on and off..
In the midlle of the tight turnhit the button to turn ct off and max trim on...
I can feel the extra lift and turn quicker
I have done this for years, the slower the fight the more the effect
It works on all planes
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: nopoop on June 27, 2022, 04:13:37 PM
Ok, more questions :)
Shane I've been doing a little practice on hammer heads. To the right or left ? I've been starting at around 150. Chop throttle, full right rudder and let it flop ? Correct ? Flaps ?
Also on the con's break. Fought a brewster. I would think the closer I can get to the vertical on the engagement the better to follow the break for a snap shot. Or is the hard pullout going to make me lose more than gain cuz most times it is not a kill. Gunnery....
I'm somewhat encouraged, I'm 3 and 0, but the brewster went for a face shot and I had the pods..
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Shane on June 27, 2022, 05:25:30 PM
It wants to fall right, more so if you throttle down. The 109's shouldn't be getting into flaps very often - they're pretty situational. You'll most likely end up in flaps when you get yourself in a downward spiral or rolling scissors and are trying to slow down and stay behind the hog about to kill you :aok
The key thing about 109's is work with them, don't try and force them. It's very much a "timing" machine as opposed to an instant reaction killer. (One of my weaker skillsets is recognizing when to drop the hammer on my ropes and I end up just missing my shot (that others won't.) Altho' if your gunnery allows, they are great crossing shot killers.
Stick with them long enough and you'll figure it out - not an immediate gratification plane.
Once you get a good handle on the 109s, you can graduate to LA7s which is the best all-around dog pure fighter imho. :neener:
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Arlo on June 27, 2022, 05:31:20 PM
Have manual trim set to a rotor with that rotor maxed up..
Have a button to turn CT on and off..
In the midlle of the tight turnhit the button to turn ct off and max trim on...
I can feel the extra lift and turn quicker
I have done this for years, the slower the fight the more the effect
It works on all planes
Eagler
Can you pull pitch to an accelerated stall in the turn when you are trimmed for level flight?
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 28, 2022, 03:02:03 AM
To to show how important rudder and throttle control is, I have tried my best to hand pick some examples;
An Example of Rudder and Throttle keeping position behind a target. 109F v Spit9
An Example of Rudder and Throttle control causing the 109 to fly 90 degrees to it's forward momentum, excessive deceleration for defence (1:27-1:37). I advise only trying this in the G6, it has by far the more profound Torque to play with in such moves. 109G6 v P38.
Tail Flipping over the top of the rope loop is all about timing. (3:10)
K$ doing the Rudder Tail slide defence for the shot (1:50- ), if you continue the video, there is another example of the same thing 109F v Jug
109G6 using the Tail to slide into position on Ki84 (0:15-), clip after also shows a slide to slow for a crossing shot in defence v P38
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Eagler on June 28, 2022, 06:30:51 AM
Can you pull pitch to an accelerated stall in the turn when you are trimmed for level flight?
I was watching trim in MNM last night..
Turning with CT on trim rises some but doesn't go all the way to the top..
But as soon as I kill CT and go manual with trim set to 100%, trim swings up to the top and I get around faster
Kills speed but helps turning
If you manual trim while turning then maybe you are going 100% trim already but if stay using CT while turning it it better for maintaining speed but you won't turn as fast
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on June 28, 2022, 10:42:50 AM
Yes, CT does move the stick forward. All aircraft noses rise with the speed, CT pushes the stick forward. The faster you are the more CT pushes the nose, but you do not gain any turning ability in the 109 with manual trim at speeds under 325-350mph. The only aircraft that benefits from manual trim at low speeds in my experience, is the P51D. Applying manual trim to the 109 is just complicating your flying needlessly.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on June 28, 2022, 10:48:05 AM
My question is if you can pull to a stall in a flat turn without max trim. Typically you aren't using full elevator deflection in a turn so adding trim just changes the stick position relative to the elevator position. It seems likely that instead of adding trim you could just move the stick a bit for the same effect, since trim also changes the elevator position.
When you keep your speed it's simply because you aren't turning as hard. This is quantified on your G meter.
Lift produces drag, turning requires increased lift, so there is increased drag in proportion. You always get more drag when you turn harder, regardless of trim setting.
Nothing wrong with your way but I don't see an advantage to it.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Puma44 on June 29, 2022, 08:46:31 AM
Eagler, I’m not familiar with the term “rotor”. What’s the meaning? :salute
I use the tm1600 for throttle
On the left side is a rotor wheel that I set for manual trim
I keep that spun up to the top for max up trim so that when I hit the button to kill ct and go manual, it almost instantly goes to full up trim and back to ct when the button is pressed again
I think it gives you an edge in close slow t&b
If he has a buddy you are dead usually as once you start going full trim up your speed is gone
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Puma44 on June 29, 2022, 09:30:04 AM
On the left side is a rotor wheel that I set for manual trim
I keep that spun up to the top for max up trim so that when I hit the button to kill ct and go manual, it almost instantly goes to full up trim and back to ct when the button is pressed again
I think it gives you an edge in close slow t&b
If he has a buddy you are dead usually as once you start going full trim up your speed is gone
Eagler
OK, thanks! It appears a lot of players use some sort of varying trim technique. A possible issue could be having to counter all that trim when transitioning to a different phase of flight, i.e. slow & high AOA to accelerating to reposition, or vice versus. All in the technique that works for each player.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: morfiend on July 01, 2022, 11:54:56 AM
I’d like to clear up a few AH urban myths,CT or combat trim is based on a set of tables.X speed = Y setting,it’s just an easy way to reduce pilot load,it won’t increase or decrease the turn rate, it just adjust the virtual stick position. Some things that aren’t factored in are damage and flaps,that’s why when you have cut on and flaps deployed you have a slight nose pitch up and need to add forward stick to stay level. Same for when you lower gear,that’s not factored in and again you have a slight nose up pitch.
As for flying the 109, I tend to fly it like any other plane in AH,I want all the thrust I can get and very rarely cut power. Instead I use BFM and the energy egg principle to control the flight and fight. Yes sometimes you might find it difficult to roll to the right at slow speeds and full thrust but just a small reduction in thrust and standing on the rudder will allow you to roll it to the right.
When fighting in a 109 I try,although not always successfully to take the fight uphill and this is usually done in a right hand spiral,same for when I make a break turn it’s usually to the right as most pilots break left. The. left break is for several reasons,most are right handed and it’s a more natural move to pull your hand to you than to push away. I believe if you are aware of this you can setup to cut the corner and get closer for a shot. Does it always go that way,NO, but it’s a good rule of thumb and something to take note of in your next engagement.
As always YMMV.
<S>
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Mongoose on July 02, 2022, 08:24:47 AM
Trim is a system that can not be simulated accurately with spring return to center controls like we use. With real controls you simply hold them where you want and move trim until there is no force left on the control.
So in a real airplane, I could be flying level and have to apply a little left aileron to keep the plane level. I would turn the trim wheel until there was no more pressure on the stick, and the plane would be trimmed.
With my joystick at my computer, there is no way to feel that pressure as I would in a real airplane. That's why combat trim was invented. Since CT is a simple mindless formula, it is sometimes more effective to turn it off and trim the plan manually.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Tig on July 02, 2022, 09:29:28 AM
I know I just barely picked up the 109, but I just thought I'd share how I've started to find great success by studying up on wartime dogfight records for the 109. Just sticking to the aces' evaluations of going BnZ and avoiding turn fights is working wonders for my performance in the 109. Killed 3 in one sortie (one Superfort, one Jug, and one Fw 190), managed to push the P-47 down to the deck before finishing him off. I finally fought with my brain rather than my hands haha, I finally figured out how to make him burn his energy while conserving my own.
So my admittedly beginner tip is just be a smart BnZer and you get great results. I think. Lol. :airplane:
I know I just barely picked up the 109, but I just thought I'd share how I've started to find great success by studying up on wartime dogfight records for the 109. Just sticking to the aces' evaluations of going BnZ and avoiding turn fights is working wonders for my performance in the 109. Killed 3 in one sortie (one Superfort, one Jug, and one Fw 190), managed to push the P-47 down to the deck before finishing him off. I finally fought with my brain rather than my hands haha, I finally figured out how to make him burn his energy while conserving my own.
So my admittedly beginner tip is just be a smart BnZer and you get great results. I think. Lol. :airplane:
Ok, this brings up a question for me. Why does it want to fall right? I would thing the counter torque would pull it to the left.
By the way, I have enjoyed this thread. Even though I don't fly 109's, it has been a good read. Thanks.
It’s not really a case of falling to the right,if you read Shane’s statement he says if you want it to fall right it’s best to reduce thrust and torque by reducing throttle.
Yes sometimes it’s best to not use CT,I know many players toggle it on and off and a few who prefer to trim manually. Basically it’s there to reduce pilot load,similar to how we don’t have to make all the engine adjustments a RL pilot would have to. Not every player has all the setup required and would have to run through a bunch of KB commands.
Personally I usually have it on as I can’t be bothered to make the adjustments myself but there are times when I will turn it off to make certain maneuvers easier,like pulling a 109 out of a high speed dive as an example.
As always YMMV!
<S>
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on July 02, 2022, 12:57:54 PM
I found an old post by Hitech explaining Combat Trim https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,399077.msg5289744.html#msg5289744
So in a real airplane, I could be flying level and have to apply a little left aileron to keep the plane level. I would turn the trim wheel until there was no more pressure on the stick, and the plane would be trimmed.
With my joystick at my computer, there is no way to feel that pressure as I would in a real airplane. That's why combat trim was invented. Since CT is a simple mindless formula, it is sometimes more effective to turn it off and trim the plan manually.
The spring centered sticks we use can also be trimmed to relieve the stick pressure. The difference is that you move the stick to the center as you adjust the trim and you just remove the spring force. Some games will position a FFB stick according to the trim setting.
Combat Trim is table based. It's not as accurate as using an auto pilot mode to trim or trimming manually. The advantage of CT is that it's automatic when on.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Mongoose on July 03, 2022, 10:31:19 AM
The spring centered sticks we use can also be trimmed to relieve the stick pressure.
Mine can't. I can't afford anything that fancy. Mine is a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It has a good fit, and does everything I need. But no trim wheels.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on July 03, 2022, 02:14:36 PM
You don't need trim wheels on the stick but any analog trim control makes it easier. I don't recommend it with keyboard trim but it would work. It's possible to trim off stick spring pressure. It moves the virtual stick position while centering the controller. In AH the quick way to adjust trim is with the auto angle auto pilot mode. That's what I usually recommend.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on July 03, 2022, 03:02:32 PM
If this chat was more about about 109s and less about Combat Trim I'd probably be in AH by now :uhoh
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: The Fugitive on July 03, 2022, 03:57:45 PM
If this chat was more about about 109s and less about Combat Trim I'd probably be in AH by now :uhoh
I know right!
Lets back to tips on "Killin'" with the 109!
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on July 03, 2022, 04:33:43 PM
What is stopping you?
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Eagler on July 04, 2022, 06:52:25 AM
Turn in the vertical or at least about 45 degrees up to get inside more turny plane types
Shoot where they should be even if you can't see they...small burst then with gonds in a g2 sometimes make a nice pop and you never get to see the explosion
Eagler
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: morfiend on July 04, 2022, 12:21:20 PM
The best tip I have is to learn about the energy egg principle and how to use the lift vector to point your plane where you want to go to.
This applies to every fighter regardless of type. Nothing fancy just apply BFM.
The energy egg is rather simple look at an egg,put the fat bottom down and that is how a plane turns in the vertical,you can use the pitch back,which is a nose up reversal to tighten the turn radious.You don’t have to turn straight up but can pitch up at an angle as eaglet suggests.
Turning down hill will increase speed but also increase turn radious, this also called a slice back!
I’d also suggest you work on the barrel roll defence,a hard break turn then a barrel roll to keep the lift vector on the enemy can be very effective, it often forces an overshoot and can put you into a position for a killing shot.
YMMV.
<S>
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: fuzeman on July 04, 2022, 01:39:03 PM
Where does the ‘trim set’ fit in, if it does.
( KEY_DOT according to the key command list )
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Lazerr on July 04, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
I prefer the goodies on all available 109s. I feel that I have good gunnery, and being able to have the firepower to shoot my way out of bad situations seems to outweigh the performance hindrance. Especially in high traffic areas where if trying to get saddled up for a solid shot with the small gun package opens the door for the opportunist (majority of remaining player base) to swoop down and gain your 6.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: morfiend on July 04, 2022, 04:26:24 PM
Fuse,I believe trim set locks the trim at the setting it’s at when pressed. If you use auto level then press trim set it should lock ing that setting regardless of increase or decrease of speed.
<S>
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Mako- on July 05, 2022, 04:47:03 AM
Set your trims on the stick or throttle, it needs to be handy. G6 is a great ride and use it all the time in melee. I do like it over the G2. Never take gondies, get used to the out the nose shots. Flaps will help in those knife fights but I go by the luft books I have and the tactics they use. They do work here too.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: The Fugitive on July 05, 2022, 05:31:08 AM
Set your trims on the stick or throttle, it needs to be handy. G6 is a great ride and use it all the time in melee. I do like it over the G2. Never take gondies, get used to the out the nose shots. Flaps will help in those knife fights but I go by the luft books I have and the tactics they use. They do work here too.
What are some of the tactics that are in those books?
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: The Fugitive on July 08, 2022, 04:30:56 PM
OK Dolby, I need some more films!!! Once I figured out how to slow down the youtube videos it was easier to see your aim points. Do you use the gondies and what is your convergence set at?
I have got to learn to be easier on the stick, Im just to heavy handed, and if you saw the size of my hands youd see why! Do you use any scaling for your stick and rudders or are you that smooth?
Anyone else got films showing maneuvers, merges, setups? Please? :D
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: Max on July 09, 2022, 08:45:36 AM
OK Dolby, I need some more films!!! Once I figured out how to slow down the youtube videos it was easier to see your aim points. Do you use the gondies and what is your convergence set at?
I have got to learn to be easier on the stick, Im just to heavy handed, and if you saw the size of my hands youd see why! Do you use any scaling for your stick and rudders or are you that smooth?
Anyone else got films showing maneuvers, merges, setups? Please? :D
Following!
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: LCADolby on July 10, 2022, 11:18:10 AM
Sadly I believe I have posted all the films from my library.. The only other thought is to go through all the 109 films you can find on youtube. I know that is not exactly the best thing because there are a number of 109 films that have errors and poor advise, but these have been made by people I am sure mean well. So take some advise with a pinch of salt. Latrobe had some valuable fight breakdowns if I recall correctly.
I always had my guns set between 300 and 350. 300-325 for when I expect mostly nme Fighters and 350 for bomber hunting. Except the 30mm, I had at 150 regardless, I couldn't shoot that damn gun with any accuracy at range.. However, I was never a super capable gunner and favoured closer ranges than many other 109 jocks.
Slow is smooth smooth is fast, even heavy handed manoeuvres must be smooth in order to work. My stick was, when new, very smooth. I didn't need to scale it until it got older and more worn. My Elevator scaling looked like this;
100 D D D D D D D D D D 50 D
0
From memory. It prevented the initial twitch you often get when leaving the stick's deadzone. I never found myself needing to have scaled Ailerons or Rudder. I dread to think what I would have to do if I took to the sky these days.. it's damn older now
I always flew 109s by feel after years flying from experience. Sometime after I was out of the LCA I grabbed a 109F and just went fighting, forgot score, tried everything and anything to win by saddling the nme. The 109F has inadequate guns and helped those saddling skills.
Merging skills in 109s are pretty important, but merging is entirely dependant on the opponents aircraft performance (speed, climb and turn rate) and how he merges. (It always good practice to have a mental image of every opponents aircraft performance charts in the back of ones mind. Yes that is a lot of information, but its a well kept secret that the best fighter guys that know where their aircraft out performs their opponents and will drag the fight into that window) .
But here is 2 broad/vague examples;
In 109E-G6 chandelle left and adjust the chandelles profile by rolling depending on how vertical your enemy's first move is. The chess game in the on the 1st merge can make or break the 2nd merge. ~Let the opponent make the first move and beat him with your better counter, (what that is is entirely dependant on the enemy and situation).
With the G14-K4 chandelle merge right, counter intuitive but gives the enemy pilot the false assumption he has won the 1st merge due to the sluggish right hand turn these 109's make. On the second merge, merge left in the near vertical if your enemy baits himself. It's a figure 8 method that brings into play the ultra left torque those models of 109 have. Once you have tried this a few times, you will start to recognise how important the 2nd merge actually is to winning a fight.
There is probably a better way to explain, but I R dum with regard to language.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: FLS on July 10, 2022, 11:36:57 AM
A chandelle is a climbing turn, if anyone is unfamiliar with the term. If you are flying above corner speed a climbing turn will slow you down for better turn performance while storing potential energy by climbing. :aok
Judging merges takes experience and as mentioned, it's more complicated when aircraft have different performance. Practice in similar aircraft to learn basic ACM, then practice in dissimilar aircraft to exploit the differences.
Title: Re: 109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts
Post by: hgtonyvi on July 21, 2022, 02:49:34 AM
A chandelle is a climbing turn, if anyone is unfamiliar with the term. If you are flying above corner speed a climbing turn will slow you down for better turn performance while storing potential energy by climbing. :aok
Judging merges takes experience and as mentioned, it's more complicated when aircraft have different performance. Practice in similar aircraft to learn basic ACM, then practice in dissimilar aircraft to exploit the differences.