Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Slade on September 20, 2014, 12:54:18 PM
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Been flying a bit of Ki-84. 9 kills in and no losses. Not flying tentative either. AMAZING plane.
I have a huge problem with it or any uber plane. As soon as I get a 3-1 or better kill ratio in a plane I cant fly it for a while. Too easy. Too uber. I just cant.
I really respect those that are really good in modest planes. I try to sometimes fly planes on the edge of my skillset. Just good enough to be effective if I am good enough to make it happen.
I think though that dying is my best skill though! LOL :lol
In the context of what I'm writing to - do you know what I mean?
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Fly only 40 eny birds for a tour :D.
But yes I know what you mean. When I feel like flying a p51 I fly the Bravo, when I wanna fly a 190 I'll take out the A5, when I wanna fly a ruskie plane I'm usually in an i16
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The Ki84 is a P38 with training wheels.
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Been flying a bit of Ki-84. 9 kills in and no losses. Not flying tentative either. AMAZING plane.
I have a huge problem with it or any uber plane. As soon as I get a 3-1 or better kill ratio in a plane I cant fly it for a while. Too easy. Too uber. I just cant.
I really respect those that are really good in modest planes. I try to sometimes fly planes on the edge of my skillset. Just good enough to be effective if I am good enough to make it happen.
I think though that dying is my best skill though! LOL :lol
In the context of what I'm writing to - do you know what I mean?
That's exactly how I am. I RARELY fly a plane with an ENY below 10. La7, spit9/16 should be perked.
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A wicked plane. Probably the toughest plane in the game as well.
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Bring it to the DA and we can test it out :D
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ENY 30-35 birds are your best freinds... try the 109 E sir it is a sleeper in the MA. One tip... When slow it is even better! :old:
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ENY 30-35 birds are your best freinds... try the 109 E sir it is a sleeper in the MA. One tip... When slow it is even better! :old:
Those guns make you appreciate all other guns.
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Are the BF-109e guns that bad? I mean if I set convergence to and shoot at 300 would that be effective?
Thanks.
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Are the BF-109e guns that bad? I mean if I set convergence to and shoot at 300 would that be effective?
Thanks.
Better bring them in a little more.
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ENY 30-35 birds are your best freinds... try the 109 E sir it is a sleeper in the MA. One tip... When slow it is even better! :old:
Take an ENY 30 Mosquito VI and make ENY 10 planes cry... while you net 3 perks a pop, usually more like 4 if you land them. If there are lower ENY P51, La7s and Spit16s around, 30 perk worth sorties are not so rare. Carry 2x500 lbs internal with no drag penalty for some extra kills via bomb-vulching or GV busting.
I carry the bombs as ballast so I do not overtake Save's ENY20 190A8 too fast on the climb out.
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Think of it like this when it comes too the 109E and her guns....It is a 30mm trainer. If you are ultimately looking to fly the 109 K then start here with the Emil.
By that I mean,
1. Ammo is short so you have to make your shots count.
2. Re-Enforces both BFM & ACM as it lacks in speed to escape however it provides a very unexpected turn.
3. Known to farm perks.
4. Players drool over a low 109E therefore finding a fight is easy.
5. Ballistics are for 200-400 convergence... Much like the 30mm. (my sweet spot is 200 for both the K & E)
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Well of course you find it amazing, it is basically a Japanese Spixteen, or possibly even better than that:
Spitfire VIII is a 1943 aircraft.
I will note that the Ki-84 seems to kick the Spit VIII's in the 6 whenever they are set opposite each other in the AvA.
Yup. Some years ago there was an AvA setup pitting the Spit 8 against the Frank. Two very good squadrons came into the arena most nights that week, switching sides each night. The Frank came out on top every time. Really, it didn't even seem close.
- oldman
On top of the flying qualities, they seem to absorb about as much ammo as a P47.
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Well of course you find it amazing, it is basically a Japanese Spixteen, or possibly even better than that:
On top of the flying qualities, they seem to absorb about as much ammo as a P47.
Don't know what type of 84's you been flying, mine definitely don't take that much ammo.
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Don't know what type of 84's you been flying, mine definitely don't take that much ammo.
That opinion comes from Ink...I just know they are tough, from shooting at them. Anyway to do an apples-to-apples test you think?
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Ki84 is greeeaaatttt!!! One of my most favorite planes in AH. The other one of my most fav planes is the F4U. And you know what? The F4U out turns and beats the ki84 in a 1v1 fight. I call it the best match up in AH.
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F4U-4 vs Ki84 in a vertical Scissors is a sight to behold. The other Hogs can keep up with the KI84 in the Horizontal but the KI destroys them once the fight goes nose up.
Still all the F4Us have the distinct advantage in top speed and Diving, were as the Ki84 is more like the 109 in the sense that it can't BnZ very effectively.
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KI-84 is a great plane, but something keeps it from being used as much as other "great" planes.
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F4U-4 vs Ki84 in a vertical Scissors is a sight to behold. The other Hogs can keep up with the KI84 in the Horizontal but the KI destroys them once the fight goes nose up.
Still all the F4Us have the distinct advantage in top speed and Diving, were as the Ki84 is more like the 109 in the sense that it can't BnZ very effectively.
Nope.. It still loses. F4u1a, dhog. 4hog and Chog. They all beat the Ki84, because it the hog floats better
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Nope.. It still loses. F4u1a, dhog. 4hog and Chog. They all beat the Ki84, because it the hog floats better
Well than the -1 and -4 are all that I'll speak for than since those are the only hogs I've flown for the past couple months.
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I don't know about that. . .
A Dhog and Ahog don't have the climb power for the Ki84 in the spiral climb.
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I don't know about that. . .
A Dhog and Ahog don't have the climb power for the Ki84 in the spiral climb.
Unlike spits and 109s, the ki84 can take a brief snapshot or two. Dangerous plane for the Blue Birds for sure.
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Unlike spits and 109s, the ki84 can take a brief snapshot or two. Dangerous plane for the Blue Birds for sure.
Spits and 109's don't even have the climb power, not even the K4.
The K4 torque kills it in the spiral climb against the torque.
Any Ki84 pilot that knows an once of what he is doing is dangerous. The F4U4 may have the engine power but it won't hang with a KI straight up and down, maybe in a slightly angled vertical fight but in a 90* fight, the Ki will win.
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The C.202 needs to be perked to hell... :devil
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KI-84 is a great plane, but something keeps it from being used as much as other "great" planes.
Probably the big red meatball on the wing.
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Spits and 109's don't even have the climb power, not even the K4.
The K4 torque kills it in the spiral climb against the torque.
Any Ki84 pilot that knows an once of what he is doing is dangerous. The F4U4 may have the engine power but it won't hang with a KI straight up and down, maybe in a slightly angled vertical fight but in a 90* fight, the Ki will win.
You would have to fly perfectly in the vert to out do a f4u. Other than that, a f4u wins. I had this fight a long time ago in H2H to prove a point.
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Spit 16, Spit 8 and the later 109s all out climb the KI84. It hangs great but plenty of planes out climb it and in a close quarters fight an F4U that gets his nose up for few seconds while in range can get guns on before the KI gets out of range.
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Big fan of the Ki-84. Poor high speed handling means you're forced to mix it up... my style
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hate to disagree with my squadie....but the Ki84 will destroy the F4U's..... :t
yes a well driven F4U can be difficult to beat, but that can be said for most any plane.
even E at start and if the F4U sticks around and actually fights.... the ki just needs to get it slow.... then turn it into a climbing fight...the F4U can not keep up.
anyone who flies the Ki worth his salt knows the Ki is a vertical monster...very few planes can keep up.
yes I admit I miss flying the Beast. :(
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Never flown it in game.. but does really everything pretty nice.. considering it, haha don't know if its thats really a good or bad..
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IMO the Hog is the best dogfighter...4 Hog that is. The 1A can keep up with a KI for a bit in the vert but will lose. But it isn't hard to sucker a KI84 into a rolling scissor...which is where the Hog has it's best performance as far as knife fights go.
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IMO the Hog is the best dogfighter...4 Hog that is. The 1A can keep up with a KI for a bit in the vert but will lose. But it isn't hard to sucker a KI84 into a rolling scissor...which is where the Hog has it's best performance as far as knife fights go.
thats why the plane really doesnt matter so much....it's the stick you fight not the plane.
when you are noob the plane is much more a part of the equation....
as you become more in tuned to ACM the plane matters less.IMO
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The Ki-84 is one of the AH "Easy Mode" poster children. A training wheels ride and a Spit16 in drag.
Turn radius, speed and climb are pretty close to the Spitteen's. Roll rate is damn near identical. Guns don't hit quite as hard and have slightly inferior ballistics but that's offset by the higher rate of fire and greater ammo capacity. Add in the damn thing tends to soak up damage like nothing short of the Hellcat or P47s can and you have a monster plane.
I took it up last month for the first time in a while and landed 4 kills (two 1v1s and one 2v1) without difficulty.
How the Ki-84 can have a ENY higher than the bf110G is anyone's guess....I assume it's the massive firepower advantage of the 110 but that in my mind isn't sufficient to warrant the large performance differences between the two. But then again I can say the same of the Spit IX as well. :rolleyes:
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hate to disagree with my squadie....but the Ki84 will destroy the F4U's..... :t
yes a well driven F4U can be difficult to beat, but that can be said for most any plane.
even E at start and if the F4U sticks around and actually fights.... the ki just needs to get it slow.... then turn it into a climbing fight...the F4U can not keep up.
anyone who flies the Ki worth his salt knows the Ki is a vertical monster...very few planes can keep up.
yes I admit I miss flying the Beast. :(
Idk man, it is a very close fight. You can hover turn the F4U so nicely and you'd be very suprised how well it can climb strait up. Plus if the ki grabs your 6 , if there is room to dive you can pull a reversal maneuver while the K struggles to find lift. The thing is, most don't really fly it up to par in 1v1 fights in the MA.
As you all were saying, it does to an extent come down to the pilot. But they each have advantages which can become costly if you cross the gun path.
The Ki-84 is one of the AH "Easy Mode" poster children. A training wheels ride and a Spit16 in drag.
Turn radius, speed and climb are pretty close to the Spitteen's. Roll rate is damn near identical. Guns don't hit quite as hard and have slightly inferior ballistics but that's offset by the higher rate of fire and greater ammo capacity. Add in the damn thing tends to soak up damage like nothing short of the Hellcat or P47s can and you have a monster plane.
I took it up last month for the first time in a while and landed 4 kills (two 1v1s and one 2v1) without difficulty.
How the Ki-84 can have a ENY higher than the bf110G is anyone's guess....I assume it's the massive firepower advantage of the 110 but that in my mind isn't sufficient to warrant the large performance differences between the two. But then again I can say the same of the Spit IX as well. :rolleyes:
It's a great plane for defense. It can't dive or really run away so that's a huuuggee disadvantage in this game. When you get ganged by 190Ds all afternoon it makes the plane tough to be really successful in.
The spit 16 and spit 8 completely destroy the KI84 at everything.
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It's a great plane for defense. It can't dive or really run away so that's a huuuggee disadvantage in this game. When you get ganged by 190Ds all afternoon it makes the plane tough to be really successful in.
Yes, but the same can be said for many "turny" rides (including the Spit16) when engaged with planes which can go faster (i.e. P51s, LA7s, etc). Sorry...just not buying the "Doras dominate" garbage.
The spit 16 and spit 8 completely destroy the KI84 at everything.
Horse squeeze.
- Below 12K the Ki is slightly faster without WEP and tied with the Spit16 WITH WEP (the Spit 8 is slower in both cases).
- The Ki does not climb as well as either Spit, but below 8K the differences are not vast. At Mil power the Ki has a disadvantage of about 500 ft. per min climb on the deck, with the Ki closing the gap up to ~100-150 ft per min at about 8K. It drops off after that. Using WEP increases the disadvantage so mark this as an area where the Ki is clearly at a disadvantage.
- The Ki's turn radius is slightly worse without flaps. Flaps down it basically even between the three planes.
- Ki accelerates slightly faster than the Spit 8. The Spit 16 accelerates slightly faster thant the Ki. The differences are around 1 sec in either case so it is again essentially an even match.
- Guns for the Spits are better, but again its not an overwhelming advantage. Ki has a slight advantage in firing time.
I'm pulling this data from the Gonzoville AH charts: http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php)
So nice try, but sorry no dice. The myth of the Ki being a "more difficult" ride than the upper tier Spits is a community myth. It's stated by cartoon pilots who don't want to admit their favorite ride is really no better than the "training wheels spit noobs" ridiculed mercilessly on ch200.
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The Ace of Aces hath spoken.
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The Ace of Aces hath spoken.
I'm not making any such claims.
I can, however, read graphs and interpret data.
Do you dispute my interpretation of the data, Slashy, or just wish to throw out a few more childish barbs?
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- Guns for the Spits are better, but again its not an overwhelming advantage. Ki has a slight advantage in firing time.
The Ki's guns are very close to the centerline resulting in better concentrated fire over a larger range of distances.
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I agree with Fulcrum on this one.
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The Ki's guns are very close to the centerline resulting in better concentrated fire over a larger range of distances.
Thanks Lusche. I forgot about that advantage as well.
I wonder if the calculation used to come up with the Gonzoville Lethality rating takes gun mounting into account?
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Test your Ki-84 skills against F6F-5 Hellcats and F4U-1A Corsairs in Combat Challenge on October 3rd and compete for a trophy or a T-shirt. All are welcome! <S>
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,365748.0.html
http://ahevents.org/challenges/1085-combat-challenge-viii-oct-3rd-2014.html
http://ahevents.org/description.html
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I wonder if the calculation used to come up with the Gonzoville Lethality rating takes gun mounting into account?
No, it does not.
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Test your Ki-84 skills against F6F-5 Hellcats and F4U-1A Corsairs in Combat Challenge on October 3rd and compete for a trophy or a T-shirt. All are welcome! <S>
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,365748.0.html
http://ahevents.org/challenges/1085-combat-challenge-viii-oct-3rd-2014.html
http://ahevents.org/description.html
I'm gonna show them what a F4U is capable of hehe.
Fullcrum any spit will out turn a ki84
Considering that both planes have similar performance attributes, wouldn't you say that the spit has a much higher overall advantage being able to turn better making it easier to be more effective in?
I will say that the KI84 is rather easy to use but it is so much fun to fly.
190Ds just ran away from everything and fly around like vulchers. I did not imply that they were dominant, however the match is uneven because the 190 can run away and I can't.
La7s, Ki84s, and spits are the 3 best defense planes in the game, they are normally the best turners. Yet they suffer in the offense as far as gaining alt and flying to an enemy base.
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I believe I stated that the two spits would outurn the Ki...but the advantage was slight. Once flaps come out the performance is basically even (the Ki has a very very small advantage full flaps). This slight disadvantage is balanced by the Ki's ability to take punishment, which I believe few would dispute.
In summary: It is a Spit...or so damn close to one the differences hardly matter. As to it being a "fun" ride, I don't dispute that either. Spits are fun rides! :aok :devil
I could dispute several other points you make, but lets leave the discussion to the Ki thanks.
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thats why the plane really doesnt matter so much....it's the stick you fight not the plane.
when you are noob the plane is much more a part of the equation....
as you become more in tuned to ACM the plane matters less.IMO
Exactly
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Exactly
I would quote Ink... but he gets all indignant and uptight when I do so. :lol
He is correct to a degree... but only to a degree. What he leaves out speaks volumes.
yes, the ride doesn't matter once you know ACM... or rather, it doesn't matter as much if you happen to find yourself in a disadvantage against one or more superior performing planes. it most certainly does matter when the opposing planes do not have equal performance characteristics.... it then simply adds to the disadvantage the opposition faces (assuming the opposition is not as skilled) :joystick:
If the plane truly didn't matter, then all the ACM "masters" out there would fly the biggest hunks of garbage in the game. And some do so no doubt, for the challenge of it. Many do not, however, for various reasons. :lol
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Flap and throttle considerations are more important in the Ki, making it harder to fly within the same envelope as the Spit16. I've heard some call the 84 a 38 trainer and I tend to agree. It does just about everything well but requires more of the pilot than just yanking and banking to be dangerous in.
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Flap and throttle considerations are more important in the Ki, making it harder to fly within the same envelope as the Spit16. I've heard some call the 84 a 38 trainer and I tend to agree. It does just about everything well but requires more of the pilot than just yanking and banking to be dangerous in.
I noted the Ki does not turn as well without flaps, but again the differences are not so pronounced that the plane is at a significant disadvantage if the pilot does not do so. As for throttle control, I disagree as it is always a concern regardless of the plane including a Spit16.
Does the Ki require a bit more thought than a Spit? Yes. But only a bit. Does it require as much thought as a P47 or P51 to use as a turnfighter? No. Why? Because it's ideally suited to the close-in dogflight role.
It's a VERY uber plane for what it is designed to do. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't understand the plane or is being intentionally disingenuous.
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Go fly a spit 8 or 16 tonight and then go fly a ki84 or vice versa. You will be able to see how much easier it is to turn inside of planes earlier in a spit. You will get better jumps on planes. Quicker loop over immelmans, quicker responses and easier handling. You have to be able to get the flaps down quickly in a KI84 which is really tough. Those flaps do not like to come out. This puts it at a harder disadvantage because a spit has the ability to get around on planes extremely quickly while deploying flaps earlier.
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See Violator that is where patience is key. But with the dweebery at an all time high (Snailman don't comment) it is almost vital you kill your enemy as quickly as possible.
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Go fly a spit 8 or 16 tonight and then go fly a ki84 or vice versa. You will be able to see how much easier it is to turn inside of planes earlier in a spit. You will get better jumps on planes. Quicker loop over immelmans, quicker responses and easier handling. You have to be able to get the flaps down quickly in a KI84 which is really tough. Those flaps do not like to come out. This puts it at a harder disadvantage because a spit has the ability to get around on planes extremely quickly while deploying flaps earlier.
No need. I've flown all three extensively over the 10 years I've played this game.
You are correct the that it is easier to perform these actions in the Spits than in the Ki. I'm not disputing that both Spits are "better" in a turnfight. My dispute is with the implication that the differences are so vast it prevents the Ki from being classified as a "noob killing / seal clubbing" monster in its own right. That opinion is apparently desputed by a number of players...usually by overstating the gaps that exist between the Spit8/16 and Ki as a qualifier e.g. "Oh, well....the Ki is much harder to get kills in than the Spit <8/16> because of <x>".
*ahem* I'd be remiss if I didn't point out many (most?) of the players who do so fly the Ki regularly.... :old:
You are also neglecting to mention the other intangibles, both defensive and offensive, which the Ki84 possesses that have to also be factored in when deciding if it's an "uber" ride or not.
So again, in every way it is a dominant knife fighter. To the degree of a Spit16, no, but its really really close. Does it take a little more experience to get every last ounce out of it, sure. But I further dispute the implicaiton of some that it requires years of experience to do so.
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I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?
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Im gonna have to agree with violator. I fought him in my KI against his f4u, I lost but MAN! HE WAS FLYING PERFECTLY! its like he said it seemed to "float better" I thought KI floated but man I was wrong. I also Fought Simon last night and now im thinkin...I GOTTA FLY F4u!
I read on the BBS before that f4u has the best cornering at a certain speed.. IDK! whatever Simon did was almost magical! he must know the "sweetspot" speed. <S>
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I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?
:lol Not bragging at all! But thank you for re-enforcing the point I have made about the Ki
i.e. a "scrub" pilot can go out and land four kills without difficulty in it.
Come on....follow the logic....I know you can do it! :lol
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Im gonna have to agree with violator. I fought him in my KI against his f4u, I lost but MAN! HE WAS FLYING PERFECTLY! its like he said it seemed to "float better" I thought KI floated but man I was wrong. I also Fought Simon last night and now im thinkin...I GOTTA FLY F4u!
I read on the BBS before that f4u has the best cornering at a certain speed.. IDK! whatever Simon did was almost magical! he must know the "sweetspot" speed. <S>
The -4 is easily one of the best planes in the game and a lot of what appears to be "skill" is nothing more than inherent plane performance. If you think of it in terms of what the plane can do, instead of what the plane is doing in comparison to your (different) plane, it's actually much easier to fight and kill.
The trick to beating the -4 is getting it to turn, and then taking it vertical. Once it's slowed, it's dead, provided you fight the appropriate fight. Even the best -4 sticks in the game can't compensate for the -4's lack of acceleration.
Fight the plane, not the pilot.
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I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?
Fulcrum a "scrub pilot"? Coming from you, that's rich.
:ahand
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Fulcrum a "scrub pilot"? Coming from you, that's rich.
:ahand
*shrug*
He's entitled to his opinion. I have no issue with him having one....especially when he voices it in an effort to insult me but simply ends up supporting my stated position. :rofl
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Dude, the f4u-4 fu**ked me the bunghole one time, with all it's high praise, "its such a great turner" and what-not i thought so highly of it. I got into a drawn-out circle of death turning match with bricker in an la-7.. did a few roundabouts just missing shots to kill him. Well, he astonished me by getting around on me in that thing, and shooting me down, I think he was as surprised as I was.. maybe I was doing something wrong, I believe I had the flaps extended and wsa completely crawling this thing on the deck around in super tight circles.. I thought maybe a spitfire or jap plane coud possibly get around on me, not an la!! I was pissed!
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The -4 is easily one of the best planes in the game and a lot of what appears to be "skill" is nothing more than inherent plane performance. If you think of it in terms of what the plane can do, instead of what the plane is doing in comparison to your (different) plane, it's actually much easier to fight and kill.
The trick to beating the -4 is getting it to turn, and then taking it vertical. Once it's slowed, it's dead, provided you fight the appropriate fight. Even the best -4 sticks in the game can't compensate for the -4's lack of acceleration.
Fight the plane, not the pilot.
I'd say the biggest disadvantage for any F4U is the lack of ecceleration, which makes it pretty easy to run and get away from if you have a faster plane. This can also be detrimental vs a ki84. If you are lucky you will be able to out rope it after turning but vs -4 thats pretty tough to do
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Dude, the f4u-4 fu**ked me the bunghole one time, with all it's high praise, "its such a great turner" and what-not i thought so highly of it. I got into a drawn-out circle of death turning match with bricker in an la-7.. did a few roundabouts just missing shots to kill him. Well, he astonished me by getting around on me in that thing, and shooting me down, I think he was as surprised as I was.. maybe I was doing something wrong, I believe I had the flaps extended and wsa completely crawling this thing on the deck around in super tight circles.. I thought maybe a spitfire or jap plane coud possibly get around on me, not an la!! I was pissed!
I'm not trying to be a dixk, but there were prob a number of things you were doing wrong.
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oh no doubt, but i just thought there would be a greater turning margin between the two, not the case sadly.. lol
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oh no doubt, but i just thought there would be a greater turning margin between the two, not the case sadly.. lol
La7 can turn quite well. Don't underestimate it.
Really intruely in a flat turn like that. You need try to get the nose down with rudder and then attempt to pull a verticle loop. Flat turns are incredibly dangerous to get in.
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I don't think Slash was in disagreement about the KI, think he was just thinking what a lot are already thinking...what is a scrub pilot like Fulcrum bragging about 4 kills for?
Basically. This is a thinly veiled self promotion campaign, hence the stupid comment directed you.
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Fulcrum, did you used to be in the AK's? Seems like I remember you in the AK's when I flew with them.
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Basically. This is a thinly veiled self promotion campaign, hence the stupid comment directed you.
:lol How so?
I simply pointed out what the data says, stated my postion, added some personal conclusions then responsed to rebuttals to defend that position and those conclusions. It's also what Violator and many others did as well.
What you (and Junky) attempted with your posts was a bit different. You both attempted to introduce argumentum ad hominem:
"..a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument "*
It's a rather common tactic, typically employed by the side losing a debate.
:) :salute
* Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).
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Fulcrum, did you used to be in the AK's? Seems like I remember you in the AK's when I flew with them.
You were not with the AKs when I flew with them, Zoney. But yes, I did fly with them for a while. Why?
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:lol How so?
I simply pointed out what the data says, stated my postion, added some personal conclusions then responsed to rebuttals to defend that position and those conclusions. It's also what Violator and many others did as well.
What you (and Junky) attempted with your posts was a bit different. You both attempted to introduce argumentum ad hominem:
"..a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument "*
It's a rather common tactic, typically employed by the side losing a debate.
:) :salute
* Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).
scrub has to mean your a bad pilot? No your a decent stick who just hides behind others, never fights unless at the advantage...I'm saying your flying style is weak, I've been in the DA with you I know your an OK stick...you just fly lame but talk huge game.
Skyrr, 7 rounds...you pick first ride. 25% fuel. Ammo dump at pilots discretion, deck merge. Loser picks next rounds plane. Sound good?
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It's a rather common tactic, typically employed by the side losing a debate.
I wasn't debating.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/derp
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You were not with the AKs when I flew with them, Zoney. But yes, I did fly with them for a while. Why?
I was only wondering, I thought we might have fought together with them, thank you. ( I have no ulterior motives sir, just curious ) :salute
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I wasn't debating.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/derp
Actually, you were. Or rather, you were attempting to support one side of a debate in progress through argumentum ad hominem.
Thanks for the link, but I'm aware of the definition for the term "derp".
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I was only wondering, I thought we might have fought together with them, thank you. ( I have no ulterior motives sir, just curious ) :salute
No worries, sir. None were assumed. :salute
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Fight the plane, not the pilot.
I hope they fight the plane more then the pilot and that's why I fly the Mossie a lot and cobia the A20, Fight the plane and you will get killed more times then not with the right pilot.
Its mostly about the pilot very little about the plane.
Example: you can fly a new guy in to the ground or get him to lawn dart almost every time 8)
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I hope they fight the plane more then the pilot and that's why I fly the Mossie a lot and cobia the A20, Fight the plane and you will get killed more times then not with the right pilot.
Its mostly about the pilot very little about the plane.
Example: you can fly a new guy in to the ground or get him to lawn dart almost every time 8)
I kinda agree with iKo on this one...but I am admittedly somewhat biased. :D
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Idk man, it is a very close fight. You can hover turn the F4U so nicely and you'd be very suprised how well it can climb strait up. Plus if the ki grabs your 6 , if there is room to dive you can pull a reversal maneuver while the K struggles to find lift. The thing is, most don't really fly it up to par in 1v1 fights in the MA.
As you all were saying, it does to an extent come down to the pilot. But they each have advantages which can become costly if you cross the gun path.
It's a great plane for defense. It can't dive or really run away so that's a huuuggee disadvantage in this game. When you get ganged by 190Ds all afternoon it makes the plane tough to be really successful in.
The spit 16 and spit 8 completely destroy the KI84 at everything.
I agree with your opinion on the spits...after flying the Ki.... the spits is far more responsive......
but I still disagree with the F4U (any of them)equal pilots same E at the start...KI wins.
it can slow down and pick up speed faster.... climbs WAY better after the fights gotten slow...if the F4 tries to keep his E...the KI can hide massive E...if it starts out relative even E states...it can play the E game just fine...
now if say you get a guy who is an absolute master of the F4U inside and out...then yes it is a very tough fight...I mean come on man the thing has a barn door for a rudder.... :D
of course this is just my opinion, I have fought many F4us and they dont give me trouble I find someone who is a true dogfighter and knows that plane.....
and of course then there are the guys that are just natural... have great timing...know ACM...and are great shots....then it dont matter what plane they are in...they give you a run.....
those are the guys I loved fighting.
unless their dicks then they can just pissoff. :uhoh
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I kinda agree with iKo on this one...but I am admittedly somewhat biased. :D
By fighting the pilot, you're trying to second-guess what another unpredictable human is planning on doing. Ergo, you'll win some, but you'll also lose when you fail to predict correctly. It's almost laughable when people come in and say "Oh! Oh! This is XYZ pilot! They usually pull this move, so I'll be ready for it!" No flying should ever be based on a pilot - your maneuvers should be based only on your aircraft, the enemy's aircraft, the relative E-state between the two of them, and what is actively going on at the time you fight them.
If you read Shaw's book, note how many sections or chapters talk about changing tactics based on who you're fighting (answer: 0). You should always assume your opponent is perfect and is going to fly perfectly. What an opponent is capable of as an individual should have no bearing on what you are actually doing - all that matters is what their plane is capable of, when flown correctly. If a pilot adjusts their flying based on who they're fighting, then they have some deep-seated deficiencies when it comes to ACM.
By fighting the plane instead, you base your fighting on what the enemy's plane is capable of. If your plane can't turn right and I force a right turn and you attempt to turn with me, you're going to lose. Likewise, if your plane turns better than mine, but mine has better power-loading, I'm going to go vertical every time I can. It doesn't matter if I'm better at turning my plane better than you can turn yours, because by turning it I'm allowing you a chance to capitalize on my mistake. Fight what the plane is capable of in a perfect environment and it won't matter who the pilot is.
Regardless of how good the pilot is, they cannot do what the plane is incapable of doing. Ergo, fighting the plane is the most effective means of killing the opponent quickly.
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Interesting discussion. My thoughts why ki84 is NOT so popular is the fact that you have to be aware of your speed, constantly. You can climb, but you have to be extra carefull when turning the nose downwards on full throttle. Unlike spits and 109s that can be used pretty freely for picking from high alt for example (conserving energy), in Ki you have to bleed your E on certain situations just so you avoid ripping off your parts...
btw. Being a regular spit dweeb I find it interesting that people tend to call spit8 such an uber plane, when in fact it is so darn slow you have to actually fight your way out of the trouble instead of speeding up and disappearing to the setting sun when there is any trouble. But i suppose the discussion here considers only the turnfight abilites, instead of air combat in general?
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Some of the opinions regarding Spit vs. Ki-84 seem to conflict with this result:
Yup. Some years ago there was an AvA setup pitting the Spit 8 against the Frank. Two very good squadrons came into the arena most nights that week, switching sides each night. The Frank came out on top every time. Really, it didn't even seem close.
- oldman
Myself, having not extensively dueled Spit8/16 against Ki-84, I cannot say. I do know that from an outside perspective, the Ki-84 seems to present roughly the same problems as the Spit16, while absorbing more damage before it falls.
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Big fan of the Ki-84. Poor high speed handling means you're forced to mix it up... my style
+1
And you have to fight it out... no running
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Its official. The winner of this thread is the side that said the KI is a great plane but not the best. Oh wait, that was everyone on either side except INK. :D
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Interesting discussion. My thoughts why ki84 is NOT so popular is the fact that you have to be aware of your speed, constantly. You can climb, but you have to be extra carefull when turning the nose downwards on full throttle. Unlike spits and 109s that can be used pretty freely for picking from high alt for example (conserving energy), in Ki you have to bleed your E on certain situations just so you avoid ripping off your parts...
109s and Spits other than the 16 loose so much in elevator and aileron control respectively at high airspeeds that they aren't great boom and zoom gun platforms either though.
btw. Being a regular spit dweeb I find it interesting that people tend to call spit8 such an uber plane, when in fact it is so darn slow
SpitVIII compared to the F4U-1C, a perked plane very few think of as especially "slow".
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=85&p2=16&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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109s and Spits other than the 16 loose so much in elevator and aileron control respectively at high airspeeds that they aren't great boom and zoom gun platforms either though.
Yeah, but the spits don't come apart as easily at speed. They just get uncontrollable, like the 109s.
Wiley.
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Actually the Ki-84 can hardly be called "slow" either. Should be able to easily out-distance the Hurris, Brews, Fm2s, etc that overmatch it in a turn-fight.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=16&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
+1
And you have to fight it out... no running
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Actually the Ki-84 can hardly be called "slow" either. Should be able to easily out-distance the Hurris, Brews, Fm2s, etc that overmatch it in a turn-fight.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=16&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Brew vs KI in a dive....who wins? Same can be said with hurricane. A KI with either of these birds E+ to is an easy kill
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Brew vs KI in a dive....who wins? Same can be said with hurricane. A KI with either of these birds E+ to is an easy kill
A more maneuverable plane with E in a dive is a problem for any less-maneuverable aircraft. A Brewster with E is a problem even for a Tempest. That's hardly something limited to the Ki-84. I'm not sure why such a ridiculously-obvious attempt is even being made to this point.
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A more maneuverable plane with E in a dive is a problem for any less-maneuverable aircraft. A Brewster with E is a problem even for a Tempest. That's hardly something limited to the Ki-84. I'm not sure why such a ridiculously-obvious attempt is even being made to this point.
KI has almost no high speed maneuverability....where a Temp, Dora, 51, F4U and the list goes on can at least make a move to get separation then reset the fight. In a 152 I can force an overshoot in this situation a lot easier then in a KI.
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KI has almost no high speed maneuverability....where a Temp, Dora, 51, F4U and the list goes on can at least make a move to get separation then reset the fight. In a 152 I can force an overshoot in this situation a lot easier then in a KI.
Please define, in relevant, measurable terms, your statement of "no high speed maneuverability."
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People highly underestimate how fast you can get an F4U and still deploy flaps and how quickly it can slow down. This is deadly for planes like a ki84 that cant turn as quickly at high speeds. If you can get around in them pretty quickly, you can still follow them up and get some good hits from d500-d800. If that Ki84 tries to slow down as quickly as you, you will easily be able to roll inside them as you can slow down more quickly and you will be able to get some shots. That being said, vs a really good ki84 pilot you may have to fly defensively in order to get a counter punch reversal shot, as they will be attempting nothing but soaring high loops. I had this type of fight last night and won by good defensive flying, grannit he had more E and alt to start the fight but made a mistake trying to roll over too early rather than doing a high loop.
You really have to have some good SA in the KI84 because once those hi 190Ds and p51s come in, getting away from them is difficult and getting ganged is highly likely. In an arena full of fast fighters and "extenders" the ki84 is difficult to be successful in during these occurances.
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a good KI stick will not get it to the point its uncontrollable...or try not to...some times target fixation gets the best of everyone. :rofl
I do agree that is a weakness :aok
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Please define, in relevant, measurable terms, your statement of "no high speed maneuverability."
it doesn't need further explaining...just fly one for a tour and you will find this weakness very quickly.
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ki84 vs f4u
the better pile-it will win. sure on paper the f4u looks really good, but the ki in game is a beast. Like lets look at the brewster...looks terrible on paper, but a monster in game :rofl
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ki84 vs f4u
the better pile-it will win. sure on paper the f4u looks really good, but the ki in game is a beast. Like lets look at the brewster...looks terrible on paper, but a monster in game :rofl
QFT
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Like lets look at the brewster...looks terrible on paper, but a monster in game :rofl
Brewster is mediocre, at best, in AH and its performance each tour demonstrates that.
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Brewster is mediocre, at best, in AH and its performance each tour demonstrates that.
The people who tend to fly the brewster aren't normally even close to being a decent stick...
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like bruh, if i see a brewster at 10k I run for the hills. :rofl :rofl :rofl :bolt: :airplane:
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ki84 vs f4u
the better pile-it will win. sure on paper the f4u looks really good, but the ki in game is a beast. Like lets look at the brewster...looks terrible on paper, but a monster in game :rofl
Brewster's need la7s and p51s around to engage the enemy, then the Brews arrive and saddle up like heroes. If there are only brews around they are pretty useless.
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Brewster pilots usually suck and haven't the slightest idea of what a throttle control looks like, so I let them get D200 spraying and I kill throttle and watch em fly by and snap roll their selves into the ground attempting to escape.
:rolleyes:
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I've never had a problem killing Brewsters.
For those of you who would like to know the secret of my success, I've provided a flowchart:
Stay fast <----------
| |
|
V |
One pass
| |
|
V
|
30mm shot
| Reset Fight
|
V |
^
/ \ |
Hit? - - - No - - -
\ /
V
|
|
Yes
|
|
V
POOF
|
|
|
V
Next?
I realize this is kinda like McDonalds giving away the recipe for the Big Mac's "Secret Sauce", but hey....I'm willing to go that extra mile for the community. :D
I hope this helps! :aok
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it doesn't need further explaining...just fly one for a tour and you will find this weakness very quickly.
I've flown one... and I know exactly why it behaves the way it does, which has nothing to do with subpar performance. I also know your statement is false, which is why I've asked you to substantiate your claim. The burden of proof lies on you to prove the Ki-84 behaves worse than average (bottom 33-40% or so of all fighter aircraft) in regards to turn rate, turn radius, and energy retention.
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POOF!
Ha. He said "poof."
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I've flown one... and I know exactly why it behaves the way it does, which has nothing to do with subpar performance. I also know your statement is false, which is why I've asked you to substantiate your claim. The burden of proof lies on you to prove the Ki-84 behaves worse than average (bottom 33-40% or so of all fighter aircraft) in regards to turn rate, turn radius, and energy retention.
I thought you said you wanted him to explain his statement about high speed maneuverability? :headscratch:
Have you ever recorded a kill in the MA in a Ki-84?
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I thought you said you wanted him to explain his statement about high speed maneuverability? :headscratch:
I asked him to explain in quantifiable, verifiable terms. He has yet to do that.
Claiming "no high speed maneuverability" is not only false, it's also entirely subjective and useless in the course of a discussion such as this. Had he actually pulled the plane performance statistics, he'd find that the Ki-84 falls squarely in the middle of high-speed plane performance and is actually very average.
Further, it's not a lack of high-speed maneuverability that makes the aircraft appear to turn poorly, but rather the fact that the Ki does not give up E easily. This makes it hard to slow down the aircraft to its optimal turning airspeed because it doesn't bleed very much E in turns. However, this is actually a desired trait in turnfighting aircraft... and the aircraft would not handle well at all if it didn't retain its E in this manner. Therefore, it actually has good high speed maneuverability, it simply doesn't bleed E quickly enough to use most overshoot tactics.
Complaining about this is akin to complaining that a D9 has horrible turning at low speed; the D9 has horrible turning at all speeds (and if you took time to generate for the plane, you'd find it's 3rd or 4th worst-turning aircraft in the game). However, it dumps speed so quickly that it can cause overshoots easily, as well as perform some stall maneuvers, giving the illusion it turns well because you can drop airspeed quickly at high speed. At low speed, you have no excess E to drop and its poor turning becomes apparent. This is a side effect of high wing-loading, just as a lack of speed loss is a side-effect of low-wing-loading on aircraft like the Ki-84.
All of that said, I'm not sure why people are trying to make the Ki out to be some kind of skilled plane to fly by claiming it has horrible performance in certain realms of flight. It's almost laughable, as if they're trying to preemptively save their man card. If people actually cared about planes that took skill to fly, they'd be in P-40's. This is just another thread where people are trying to make excuses for their plane of choice, as we all do; the only difference here is that it seems the people that fly the Ki can't even properly explain their plane performance.
Have you ever recorded a kill in the MA in a Ki-84?
Yes, but even if I hadn't, it has nothing to do with someone else having to verify their claims.
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All of that said, I'm not sure why people are trying to make the Ki out to be some kind of skilled plane to fly by claiming it has horrible performance in certain realms of flight. It's almost laughable, as if they're trying to preemptively save their man card. If people actually cared about planes that took skill to fly, they'd be in P-40's. This is just another thread where people are trying to make excuses for their plane of choice, as we all do; the only difference here is that it seems the people that fly the Ki can't even properly explain their plane performance.
Yep. Pretty much the point I was making as well.
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Well of course you find it amazing, it is basically a Japanese Spixteen, or possibly even better than that:
On top of the flying qualities, they seem to absorb about as much ammo as a P47.
Ki-84 was my trainer. It is awesome, but not quite as awesome as the Spit XVI. Glad there aren't as many of them in the cartoon skies. :uhoh
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No matter how skilled anyone in this game thinks they are, there is really no way to be a monster killer In p-40 in the Late War. I'm not gonna say it's impossible, or can't be done. But the plane just ain't good enough to handle the hoard.
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No matter how skilled anyone in this game thinks they are, there is really no way to be a monster killer In p-40 in the Late War. I'm not gonna say it's impossible, or can't be done. But the plane just ain't good enough to handle the hoard.
That sounds like a wicked fun challenge! Almost makes me want to resub just to do that. :devil
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That sounds like a wicked fun challenge! Almost makes me want to resub just to do that. :devil
I dare you!
Edit:
Then fly the Hurricane MK1 the next tour... mwahahahahahahahahahaha :devil
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That sounds like a wicked fun challenge! Almost makes me want to resub just to do that. :devil
Late War Tour 171 was an all P-40 tour for me, netting a 134/53 K/D versus fighters.
Being that you kill me in one turn every time we meet, you could easily rack up 500 fighter kills. :aok
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Late War Tour 171 was an all P-40 tour for me, netting a 134/53 K/D versus fighters.
Being that you kill me in one turn every time we meet, you could easily rack up 500 fighter kills. :aok
How many sorties... Just curious :D
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I asked him to explain in quantifiable, verifiable terms. He has yet to do that.
I'm guessing you want turn radius and rate at high speeds. You can do that as easily as he can. The burden of proof is in the court room. You're on the internet bro. :)
Claiming "no high speed maneuverability" is not only false, it's also entirely subjective and useless in the course of a discussion such as this. Had he actually pulled the plane performance statistics, he'd find that the Ki-84 falls squarely in the middle of high-speed plane performance and is actually very average.
Further, it's not a lack of high-speed maneuverability that makes the aircraft appear to turn poorly, but rather the fact that the Ki does not give up E easily. This makes it hard to slow down the aircraft to its optimal turning airspeed because it doesn't bleed very much E in turns. However, this is actually a desired trait in turnfighting aircraft... and the aircraft would not handle well at all if it didn't retain its E in this manner. Therefore, it actually has good high speed maneuverability, it simply doesn't bleed E quickly enough to use most overshoot tactics.
Complaining about this is akin to complaining that a D9 has horrible turning at low speed; the D9 has horrible turning at all speeds (and if you took time to generate for the plane, you'd find it's 3rd or 4th worst-turning aircraft in the game). However, it dumps speed so quickly that it can cause overshoots easily, as well as perform some stall maneuvers, giving the illusion it turns well because you can drop airspeed quickly at high speed. At low speed, you have no excess E to drop and its poor turning becomes apparent. This is a side effect of high wing-loading, just as a lack of speed loss is a side-effect of low-wing-loading on aircraft like the Ki-84.
All of that said, I'm not sure why people are trying to make the Ki out to be some kind of skilled plane to fly by claiming it has horrible performance in certain realms of flight. It's almost laughable, as if they're trying to preemptively save their man card. If people actually cared about planes that took skill to fly, they'd be in P-40's. This is just another thread where people are trying to make excuses for their plane of choice, as we all do; the only difference here is that it seems the people that fly the Ki can't even properly explain their plane performance.
It is subjective, but it's an opinion shared by most people who have flown and fought the Ki-84 in an MA setting. I call that a raging clue. :banana:
Yes, but even if I hadn't, it has nothing to do with someone else having to verify their claims.
I can't find kills in the Ki-84 with Skyyr or Kast. What other names have you flown under?
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How many sorties... Just curious :D
190 sorties (all in fighter mode) - 205 kills/55 deaths
134 fighter kills - 59 bomber/attack plane kills - 12 vehicle/boat kills
53 deaths to fighters - 2 deaths to vehicle/boats
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That sounds like a wicked fun challenge! Almost makes me want to resub just to do that. :devil
I think Im gonna try the challenge too. Been getting bored with gameplay lately.
In fact, I think we all should try it :devil
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I'm guessing you want turn radius and rate at high speeds. You can do that as easily as he can. The burden of proof is in the court room. You're on the internet bro. :)
And I've ran them. In fact, my post you quoted implies that clearly. With that , it's obvious you didn't bother to read it. I'd post them straight from the Excel sheet, but I'm out of town at the moment.
It is subjective, but it's an opinion shared by most people who have flown and fought the Ki-84 in an MA setting. I call that a raging clue. :banana:
A majority of the people here couldn't handle a 1v1 in their own planes. That's another "raging clue" that they might not actually know what they're talking about, but I digress. :banana:
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Since shida isn't about (but I was going to say it anyway) KI-84 = Spit 16 in drag, Uber mode plane! Plus it's a bullet sponge.
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And I've ran them. In fact, my post you quoted implies that clearly. With that , it's obvious you didn't bother to read it. I'd post them straight from the Excel sheet, but I'm out of town at the moment.
A majority of the people here couldn't handle a 1v1 in their own planes. That's another "raging clue" that they might not actually know what they're talking about, but I digress. :banana:
You haven't ever flown the Ki-84 in the MA. That's the most raging of all raging clues. :)
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You haven't ever flown the Ki-84 in the MA. That's the most raging of all raging clues. :)
Oh I have. The only one between us who has a track record of not being able to make good on their claims is you. Eh? Eh? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpULa7coeZU) :rofl
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Oh I have. The only one between us who couldn't make good on their claims is you. Eh? Eh? :rofl:
Skyyr, are you being dishonest with us?
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I havent flown the KI84 in the MA since about tour 50! I bet I know how it performs in all it's flight realms.
The KI suffers from a stiff elevator over 400mph or so,much like the 109's do and it has a tendency to shed ailerons if you exceed 430 mph but I dont think it cant manuver at speed. If you leave CT on you may have difficulties but if you manually trim the 84 you can make it do things it just wont do with combat trim on.
IMHO it's in the same class as the spiteen,K4 and any other fighter players consider "superior".
I've read quite a few things in this thread that I dont agree with,someone said the flaps dont come out easy.... :rolleyes: They deploy at 170 a mere 20mph slower than the 109's and 20 mph faster than the spits. There's more but I'll stop now.
:salute
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I havent flown the KI84 in the MA since about tour 50! I bet I know how it performs in all it's flight realms.
The KI suffers from a stiff elevator over 400mph or so,much like the 109's do and it has a tendency to shed ailerons if you exceed 430 mph but I dont think it cant manuver at speed. If you leave CT on you may have difficulties but if you manually trim the 84 you can make it do things it just wont do with combat trim on.
IMHO it's in the same class as the spiteen,K4 and any other fighter players consider "superior".
I've read quite a few things in this thread that I dont agree with,someone said the flaps dont come out easy.... :rolleyes: They deploy at 170 a mere 20mph slower than the 109's and 20 mph faster than the spits. There's more but I'll stop now.
:salute
just some clarification :D
flaps come out at 160
Ailerons dont come off until over 500...I have gotten her to 505 without losing parts.
she flys great at 400.... maneuvers just fine...once you start getting beyond that yes she stiffens up, but not very bad untill you are in the 460-480 range
she is the best fighter in the Hanger...or damn close to it.
you will be hard put to find someone who has put as much time actually fighting in the KI84 as I did.
fighting the gang pretty much every sortie I still have an overall K/D of over 2 in it. and my aim is horrible...if I had Grizz like Aim in the KI I would never be killed.(or very rarely)
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Oh I have. The only one between us who has a track record of not being able to make good on their claims is you. Eh? Eh? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpULa7coeZU) :rofl
YOUTUBE!!
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just some clarification :D
flaps come out at 160
Ailerons dont come off until over 500...I have gotten her to 505 without losing parts.
she flys great at 400.... maneuvers just fine...once you start getting beyond that yes she stiffens up, but not very bad untill you are in the 460-480 range
she is the best fighter in the Hanger...or damn close to it.
you will be hard put to find someone who has put as much time actually fighting in the KI84 as I did.
fighting the gang pretty much every sortie I still have an overall K/D of over 2 in it. and my aim is horrible...if I had Grizz like Aim in the KI I would never be killed.(or very rarely)
Ink, While you may be able to exceed the speeds I quoted if you try to manuver the 84 above 430 mph the ailerons will depart if you exceed 2.5 G's,now granted it's difficult to get the 84 to pull more than 2 G's at those speeds I am able to using trim.
I was positive the first notch of flaps came out at 170 TAS but I also know I dont have as much time in the KI as you do,so I will have to check into that later! Not that it really matters as the difference is small and TAS and IAS can vary so we could both be correct...... :devil
I have also managed to take the KI over 500 mph without breaking it but any inputs can cause you to loose parts and thats likely not the best part of the KI's flight envelope.
I'm sure you know Ink,the KI is best used fighting uphill,using a spiral climb to get above and behind your enemy and then giving them a taste of those 20mm and machine guns.
:salute
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Ink, While you may be able to exceed the speeds I quoted if you try to manuver the 84 above 430 mph the ailerons will depart if you exceed 2.5 G's,now granted it's difficult to get the 84 to pull more than 2 G's at those speeds I am able to using trim.
I was positive the first notch of flaps came out at 170 TAS but I also know I dont have as much time in the KI as you do,so I will have to check into that later! Not that it really matters as the difference is small and TAS and IAS can vary so we could both be correct...... :devil
I have also managed to take the KI over 500 mph without breaking it but any inputs can cause you to loose parts and thats likely not the best part of the KI's flight envelope.
I'm sure you know Ink,the KI is best used fighting uphill,using a spiral climb to get above and behind your enemy and then giving them a taste of those 20mm and machine guns.
:salute
:salute
everyone I ever helped in the KI....I tell them to fight in the vert...for sure..... thats her game.... :rock
thats not to say she cant fight down hill, she certainly can...just have to fight dethrottled.
and yes once you get to the 500 mark....you better caress that stick like its the wifes pu.......gently...ya thats it..... Gently...... :D
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Here is all we need to know about the Ki from this thread:
I once pwnt Ink in a Ki. I took a screenshot of his broken plane and hung it on my wall. :old:
Skyyr is so good in a Ki he doesn't even have to fly it to know precisely how it flies. :rofl
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Here is all we need to know about the Ki from this thread:
I once pwnt Ink in a Ki. I took a screenshot of his broken plane and hung it on my wall. :old:
Skyyr is so good in a Ki he doesn't even have to fly it to know precisely how it flies. :rofl
:rofl
you paid good money for me to sign it also ;)
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:rofl
you paid good money for me to sign it also ;)
The little heart you made at the end of it was totally worth it. :D
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:rofl
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Ink, While you may be able to exceed the speeds I quoted if you try to manuver the 84 above 430 mph the ailerons will depart if you exceed 2.5 G's,now granted it's difficult to get the 84 to pull more than 2 G's at those speeds I am able to using trim.
Very easy to pull blackout in the 84 well over 400mph if you turn off combat trim.
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Very easy to pull blackout in the 84 well over 400mph if you turn off combat trim.
Yes Karnak and I believe I said that in a post above. The 84 is one of the few planes I rarely use combat trim on. For the most part I leave CT on as I'm just to lazy to be bothered to trim the planes manually and CT does a good enough job for most planes.Yes there are times when I turn it off or toggle it on/off but my setup allows me to do this quite easily.
I find the P38's and the Ki84 work better with CT off and like you said Karnak,it's the only way to get the 84 to pull G's above 400mph. I think the 109K can benefit from using manual trim,especially at high speeds as it behaves similar to the 84,maybe even moreso as it can top 450 in level flight once to alt.
:salute
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Skyyr is so good in a Ki he doesn't even have to fly it to know precisely how it flies. :rofl
I beleive he stated he has flown the Ki, you simply dismissed this claim based on his not doing so in the MA. He has, however, done so in the DA....I know because I flew it against him. One would think it should suffice given you continually make the statement 'If its not in the DA, it doesn't count.'
I'll stop now before you call out my defending a squadmate as "ankle humping". If doing so is now considered to be such, I'll be sure to get off his ankle just as soon as you get off Grizz, INK and Fester's. :aok
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I beleive he stated he has flown the Ki, you simply dismissed this claim based on his not doing so in the MA. He has, however, done so in the DA....I know because I flew it against him. One would think it should suffice given you continually make the statement 'If its not in the DA, it doesn't count.'
I'll stop now before you call out my defending a squadmate as "ankle humping". If doing so is now considered to be such, I'll be sure to get off his ankle just as soon as you get off Grizz, INK and Fester's. :aok
Your memory is terrible. You realize you could have just looked back a few pages, right? :aok
Have you ever recorded a kill in the MA in a Ki-84?
Yes, but even if I hadn't, it has nothing to do with someone else having to verify their claims.
:ahand
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Your memory is terrible. You realize you could have just looked back a few pages, right? :aok
:ahand
Why yes I did and do! Thank you you for the correction.
But this doesn't change the main point of my prior post i.e. you simply disregarded his statements and continued your claim that he had not done so in a later post. It simply reenforces my prior statement. Am I incorrect?
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Why yes I did and do! Thank you you for the correction.
But this doesn't change the main point of my prior post i.e. you simply disregarded his statements and continued your claim that he had not done so in a later post. It simply reenforces my prior statement. Am I incorrect?
I asked him about the MA. Your main point is mainly an attempt to steer the conversation away from the fact your boy is either full of it or he forgot which account he was logged in to when he became a Ki-84 ninja. :aok
With your recent interest in shades, I'd think you'd have picked up on this by now. :)
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ki84 vs F6F-5 is a great fight if flown proper F6F will win :D
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I asked him about the MA. Your main point is mainly an attempt to steer the conversation away from the fact your boy is either full of it or he forgot which account he was logged in to when he became a Ki-84 ninja. :aok
With your recent interest in shades, I'd think you'd have picked up on this by now. :)
:lol
Ah yes...how thoughtless of me to forget:
SHADEZ.
ARE.
EVILZ.*
And Evilz is rampant everywhere!!! :noid :old:
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3653259776/h1C8FD618/)
Pictorial evidence of vile sorcery and hackor skillz: Skyyr summons Kruel from the Dark Pits of Hell!!
*except when the shadez are Muppets, who only do so for the cause of FURBALLING RIGHTIOUSNEZZ!!!!!!!! :aok
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Fulcrum, stop going off the rails and find out which name your boss flies Ki-84's under. His credibility is on the line.
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Fulcrum, stop going off the rails and find out which name your boss flies Ki-84's under. His credibility is on the line.
Will do. Just as soon as you cease trying to overcompensate for this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpULa7coeZU) with inflammatory and/or incorrect statements and innuendo.
Your credibility is on the line. :old:
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Incorrect is saying you've flown a particular plane in the MA but the stats show otherwise. :)
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I asked him about the MA.
And I have flown in it in the MA. I now have a few accounts (i.e. more than two) and have had them for the last tour or so. Now you get to die to me both openly and incognito (not that it made a difference the last 10 fights or so).
:rofl
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And I have flown in it in the MA. I now have a few accounts (i.e. more than two) and have had them for the last tour or so. Now you get to die to me both openly and incognito (not that it made a difference the last 10 fights or so).
:rofl
Cool I have some films in the DA of you not wining one fight with my shade :lol its fun stuff huh :banana: let me know if you want some might help your ACM knife fighting. I am always willing to help someone get better so I have a better fight.
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Cool I have some films in the DA of you not wining one fight with my shade :lol its fun stuff huh :banana: let me know if you want some might help your ACM knife fighting. I am always willing to help someone get better so I have a better fight.
If you had actually fought me and were as good as you claimed, you should start with training your own squadmates. Changeup and Triton might be a good place to start.
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Can everyone just take a picture of their manhoods and post it on a private forum for easier comparison? It would be far simpler and much more expedient.
I will start and post mine here.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bC109bUZnBU/TfFeeE5URII/AAAAAAAAApc/BxItRUh1ndM/s1600/Weiner+wiener.jpg)
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If you had actually fought me and were as good as you claimed, you should start with training your own squadmates. Changeup and Triton might be a good place to start.
Yes we did and I have the film if you want me to send it, just wouldn't be nice just to post it, not trying to flame you. Again I do not know why you keep bringing up other people when we talk. you have good explanations about flying :salute But can you explain why you are always bring up other people when we talk here and on 200? :x
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And I have flown in it in the MA. I now have a few accounts (i.e. more than two) and have had them for the last tour or so. Now you get to die to me both openly and incognito (not that it made a difference the last 10 fights or so).
:rofl
lol... how come you gotta shade? What you afraid of? :headscratch:
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What you afraid of? :headscratch:
Clearly not you. lawl.
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Clearly not you. lawl.
So you ain't skeerd, but you shade so you can shoot people down and they not know it's you? lol
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So you ain't skeerd, but you shade so you can shoot people down and they not know it's you? lol
Nope. Keep guessing.
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Somehow methinks it's so he can PM people asking for opinions about "this Skyyr guy everyone's talking about"... :bolt:
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Somehow methinks it's so he can PM people asking for opinions about "this Skyyr guy everyone's talking about"... :bolt:
Nah, that would be called "pulling a Huklebry." :rofl
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Just letting you know that I knew. Have at it! <S>
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And I have flown in it in the MA. I now have a few accounts (i.e. more than two) and have had them for the last tour or so. Now you get to die to me both openly and incognito (not that it made a difference the last 10 fights or so).
:rofl
Thankyou for your support of Aces High......nobody dies to you whether openly or incognito......being the best in here means nothing and will always mean nothing......:old:
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Nope. Keep guessing.
You needed an account for each of your personalites?
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KI is a beast when flown properly but so is just about every other plane in the LW set.
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You needed an account for each of your personalites?
:rofl
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skyrr, what would you say are your best skills in a 1 vs 1 duel in this game?
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skyrr, what would you say are your best skills in a 1 vs 1 duel in this game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9izSl9euRc
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Can everyone just take a picture of their manhoods and post it on a private forum for easier comparison? It would be far simpler and much more expedient.
I will start and post mine here.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bC109bUZnBU/TfFeeE5URII/AAAAAAAAApc/BxItRUh1ndM/s1600/Weiner+wiener.jpg)
:aok
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9izSl9euRc
Self portrait? :lol
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9izSl9euRc
That's a loud Cock. hehehehe
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9izSl9euRc
ROFLMAO, OMG I think I almost peed myself I was laughing so hard.
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Slash, that was hilarious! Thanks for the laugh. :aok
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:aok
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People highly underestimate how fast you can get an F4U and still deploy flaps and how quickly it can slow down. This is deadly for planes like a ki84 that cant turn as quickly at high speeds. If you can get around in them pretty quickly, you can still follow them up and get some good hits from d500-d800. If that Ki84 tries to slow down as quickly as you, you will easily be able to roll inside them as you can slow down more quickly and you will be able to get some shots. That being said, vs a really good ki84 pilot you may have to fly defensively in order to get a counter punch reversal shot, as they will be attempting nothing but soaring high loops. I had this type of fight last night and won by good defensive flying, grannit he had more E and alt to start the fight but made a mistake trying to roll over too early rather than doing a high loop.
You really have to have some good SA in the KI84 because once those hi 190Ds and p51s come in, getting away from them is difficult and getting ganged is highly likely. In an arena full of fast fighters and "extenders" the ki84 is difficult to be successful in during these occurances.
I'm a relatively new player, I'm pretty sure it was me in the ki you were in a f4uc. You were very cool about it and gave me this feedback after the fight. You also pilot wounded me early, I was probably blacked out auto climbing on a few of those passes.... Just so I understand, the best tactic for an ki (or any monster climber) with an e advantage is to come in on your six then zoom as straight into the vertical after my pass so I can to continue dictating a "my passing aim vs vs your overshoot aim" type fight and just play the percentages?
I think you were saying I rolled too soon meaning i was re engaging you at a faster speed and also making your overshoot shot easier and thus not taking full advantage of my e.
Just want to confirm or perhaps an experienced pilot can re explain...
Regarding original thread, as a newer pilot the ki covers a ton of mistakes. If you get on my six I can stick stir and as soon as I escape I can build e and accelerate quickly. I don't have to pull off some crazy acm, I can go nuts on the stick and recoup all the e I blew very easily. So basically if I screw up the penalty isn't as stiff.
Additionally, I don't need a bag of tricks or acm maneuvers to have some success. If you aren't in a k4 or xiv I just take you in the vertical. If your in a bnz plane or elite climber the ki out turns you. Evasive maneuvering is simplified for a new pilot, decisions are more black and white.
Also agree that dive limitations are the reason you don't see more rookies in the ride, but that can be learned quickly.
What a terrific game I am hooked! Hopefully I can convince more friends to try it after the graphics updates.
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<snip>
But yes I know what you mean. When I feel like flying a p51 I fly the Bravo, when I wanna fly a 190 I'll take out the A5, when I wanna fly a ruskie plane I'm usually in an i16
Fw190a5 is a cheating good turner, I suggest a 500kg bomb on it.
***********
,and to Bozon's Mossie with bombs, -> that is with WEP on in the Fw190A8 :P
Bozon ' its just a P51, I keep my bombs when I turn-fight him'
Save 'Damned, that B26 out-turned me again, and kept his drones doing it, Wtg on the P51'
Bozon ' Bombs gone, VH done, come here spitty spitty'
Save ' what type is he'
Bozon ' he ? , THEY_ WHERE spit16 and one spit8'
Save ''WTG - Buffs " - I saw them first'
Bozon ' I race you'
Save ' ¤%#&&%'
Bozon ' Got 2 buffs - rtb pilot wound'
Save ' thats what you get for getting greedy :P -ggrr assist on last one'
Bozon ' thanks for #7 :P'
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I'm a relatively new player, I'm pretty sure it was me in the ki you were in a f4uc. You were very cool about it and gave me this feedback after the fight. You also pilot wounded me early, I was probably blacked out auto climbing on a few of those passes.... Just so I understand, the best tactic for an ki (or any monster climber) with an e advantage is to come in on your six then zoom as straight into the vertical after my pass so I can to continue dictating a "my passing aim vs vs your overshoot aim" type fight and just play the percentages?
I think you were saying I rolled too soon meaning i was re engaging you at a faster speed and also making your overshoot shot easier and thus not taking full advantage of my e.
Just want to confirm or perhaps an experienced pilot can re expain..
Yes I was. I was pulling defensive barrel rolls (if you check the training forum, I posted a video of how it looks from my view). So basically you were coming down on my 6 from a higher position. The only thing I could do was get you to miss the hard nose down turn, and then force a barrel roll with my lower speed to get around on your 6 as you were climbing away after making the pass. The first couple of passes you did fine because you had a lot more E than me. Around the 3rd or 4th over shoot is when you had started to lose E from pulling up and over too quickly from being impatient. After you start to get slower, the shots become easier to make however, if you overshoot it can become fatal. So you can either cut all of your speed and E to really try to stay on my 6, or when you overshoot pull a very hard split S and then if your opponent follows you, do another split S back in the other direction (toward them) or go into a spiral climb position (toward them) to the right (The enemy trying to follow you in the split S will lose more E because they are trying to get the sharper angel, plus they were slower to begin with). This will get them to be completely roped out. Once you get the timing down, you can really play with them nicely to get in a good easy kill position. With a Ki84 you can pull hard split Ss and still keep a lot of E to go back in the vert. So after you overshoot you have got to get the enemy plane completely stalled out when they attempt to go for a counter attack. A split S to verticle spiral rope will do the trick. It takes practice, timing, and experience.
What messed you up was over shooting and then immediately pulled up and tried to roll over too quickly. I still had enough E to pull up before you flipped over, but I was still going slow enough to where you couldn't flip over around on my 6. You should have pulled back and done and high loop or an extended split S to get me to stall out trying to climb to you, then flipped over. But like I said if you don't think you can pull a high loop, pull a split S first THEN pull into another loop orr go into spiral climb back in the opposite direction to get them to pull tighter angles and lose all of their E. This will reset the alt speed advantage for you. You may even get a nice rope and kill them on the flip over.
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Fw190a5 is a cheating good turner, I suggest a 500kg bomb on it.
***********
,and to Bozon's Mossie with bombs, -> that is with WEP on in the Fw190A8 :P
Bozon ' its just a P51, I keep my bombs when I turn-fight him'
Save 'Damned, that B26 out-turned me again, and kept his drones doing it, Wtg on the P51'
Bozon ' Bombs gone, VH done, come here spitty spitty'
Save ' what type is he'
Bozon ' he ? , THEY_ WHERE spit16 and one spit8'
Save ''WTG - Buffs " - I saw them first'
Bozon ' I race you'
Save ' ¤%#&&%'
Bozon ' Got 2 buffs - rtb pilot wound'
Save ' thats what you get for getting greedy :P -ggrr assist on last one'
Bozon ' thanks for #7 :P'
That can't be right: 51, the spits and 3 bombers are only 6 kills :D
Perhaps I also bomb-vulched someone?
Also true about the pilot wounds. Happens so often that my ground crew is waiting for me with a mop and a jug of blood for transfusion.
Save you know the A8 is a beast... when you compare it to the 190F8... :P
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Well, then I have to fly my A8, with 30mm's, wgr-rockets, and a external fuel tank for the hell of it, then I'm pretty sure a CV out-turns it too :old:
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I'm a relatively new player, I'm pretty sure it was me in the ki you were in a f4uc. You were very cool about it and gave me this feedback after the fight. You also pilot wounded me early, I was probably blacked out auto climbing on a few of those passes.... Just so I understand, the best tactic for an ki (or any monster climber) with an e advantage is to come in on your six then zoom as straight into the vertical after my pass so I can to continue dictating a "my passing aim vs vs your overshoot aim" type fight and just play the percentages?
I think you were saying I rolled too soon meaning i was re engaging you at a faster speed and also making your overshoot shot easier and thus not taking full advantage of my e.
Just want to confirm or perhaps an experienced pilot can re explain...
Regarding original thread, as a newer pilot the ki covers a ton of mistakes. If you get on my six I can stick stir and as soon as I escape I can build e and accelerate quickly. I don't have to pull off some crazy acm, I can go nuts on the stick and recoup all the e I blew very easily. So basically if I screw up the penalty isn't as stiff.
Additionally, I don't need a bag of tricks or acm maneuvers to have some success. If you aren't in a k4 or xiv I just take you in the vertical. If your in a bnz plane or elite climber the ki out turns you. Evasive maneuvering is simplified for a new pilot, decisions are more black and white.
Also agree that dive limitations are the reason you don't see more rookies in the ride, but that can be learned quickly.
What a terrific game I am hooked! Hopefully I can convince more friends to try it after the graphics updates.
Everytime we engage in a fight its always a good one! You are getting better and better my friend...! I fly KI-84 Everyday and it still amazes me how im still learning new tricks with this machine. KI-84 is a GOD!
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Can't wait to fight all you Ki84 dudes in the challenge arena fight tonight in my F4U.
Funny how no one has mentioned the Nik in this thread. This plane is also a beast and a good challenge for the planes alike.
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Can't wait to fight all you Ki84 dudes in the challenge arena fight tonight in my F4U.
Funny how no one has mentioned the Nik in this thread. This plane is also a beast and a good challenge for the planes alike.
I'll be in a Niki and looking for you. :old:
:devil
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I'll be in a Niki and looking for you. :old:
:devil
Fantastic!!
Although I may warn. For it starting at 11, I may(will) be slightly inebriated by then.
No excuses, just saying hehehe. I am looking forward to this fun :) such a great battle here.
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Fantastic!!
Although I may warn. For it starting at 11, I may(will) be slightly inebriated by then.
No excuses, just saying hehehe. I am looking forward to this fun :) such a great battle here.
:lol
Copy that bro, I'm looking forward to it as well! :cheers: