Author Topic: Does Race Exist?  (Read 1911 times)

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2003, 09:31:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
Well that clears it up we are ALL African Americans:D


They now prefer to be called Blacks. (Not making this up, saw it on MSNBC yesterday.) Seems the term "African" implies they are lesser Americans or less patriotic. They are simply Americans that are Black.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline Ozark

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2003, 09:58:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
what do you mean still? It will always exist


I'm so sorry that I offend you by useing the word... still!

Part of the class discussion was on the 1963 MLK, March on Washington, speech. After all the civil right laws passed in the 60's, some thing are still the same.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2003, 10:08:34 PM by Ozark »

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2003, 08:36:48 AM »
well... i went on that theory when I got my last loan..  under "race" i asked the lady... "what is popular today?"   she said that american indian/native american was good.... I said... "put me down for that"..  "are you?" she said.... "prove I'm not."  said I.... "oh, see your point... american indian it is."  says she.

I want to hear about there being no race at the next college admission session at beserkly.   Or that we are all africans from the next lawyer or politician.

There are racial features that are passed on.  u can dilute em or not.   people are attracted to people that basicaly look like them.. that is how the features are passed on.  

lazs

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2003, 09:12:33 AM »
This isn't a NASCAR thread?




:confused:

Cya!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Suave

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2950
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2003, 09:23:18 AM »
Canine species variety is probably not an apt comparison.

Was watching a show on pbs, think it was a NOVA episode about the question of race . A high school class did an experiment. Each student was asked to pick another student in the class who they thought was closest to themselves genetically. Of course they all picked a student that they looked the most like . Black students chose other black students, fair students chose other fair students, asian students chose other asian students, you get the idea. Then they submited dna samples and analyzed them and compared them and paired them. It turns out all of the students had guessed wrong. Fair skinned white kids found that their closest genetic match was a black kid and vice versa . In fact when the experiment was finished none of the genetic pairs were of the same "race" .

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2003, 09:38:44 AM »
^ It sounds extremely implosible to me.
 Especially the statement that none of the genetic pairs were of the same "race" rather than the pairing seeming random.

 I am not implying that you invented the study, but I would really like to learn more about what kind of metodology they used - which genes they compared and what kind of weight they assigned to matches.

 Could you find info on that episode on the web and post the link here, if you have time?

 miko

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13919
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2003, 09:56:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
PC nonsense. Equal does not mean the same.


FWIW I am anything BUT PC.

Please show me in MY post just where I said anything about equal.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline Suave

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2950
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2003, 10:28:02 AM »
It's not so unbelievable when you consider the fact that we all came from africans a very short time ago. And that something like 90% of all human genetic variation can be found in any community, wether it be a small town in nebraska or a small town in vietnam .

Here you can find transcripts.

http://www.newsreel.org/films/race.htm

Quote
Episode one explains why race is not biologically constructed. The producer, Christine Herbes-Sommers, focuses on an experiment with a high school biology class in Cold Spring Harbor, N.Y. The students measured their mitochondria DNA, which is inherited from the mother and has the greatest variation from person to person, to find out who else in the class and in the world they most resemble. Before the students took the test, they were asked to guess. Not surprisingly, each student picked people of the same ethnicity, both in the class and in the world. The results proved almost every student wrong, and even those who guessed correctly found the answers more complicated than expected.


http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm
« Last Edit: December 18, 2003, 10:34:02 AM by Suave »

Offline mietla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2276
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2003, 10:35:04 AM »
Quote
Maverick

Please show me in MY post just where I said anything about equal.


You did not, I said that. You've just used a typical PC statement which although patently untrue, it suppose to make us feel better about ourselves.

"Wouldn't it be nice if we all were the same. Then there would be racism".

That's a premise. The trouble is, that this is an idiotic wish. We are different, that is a fact. The skin color is just an insignificant although highly visible trait, so PC police has a tendency to say we are really all the same color.

"White and black are really the same color, just different intensity". Which of course is again, idiotic, but again, suppose to make us feel better.

Just because we strive to treat people equally before the law (this is the only thing the government should enforce), does not mean that we need to foolishly lie to ourselves and claim that this equality makes us "the same".

Offline myelo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1590
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2003, 11:57:40 AM »
The fact that a group of untrained high school students failed to accurately identify racial features is not surprising. On the other hand, genetic tests are highly reliable in sorting individuals into one of 5 ancestral branches: an African branch, Caucasian branch, Pacific Islander branch, East Asian branch, and Native American branch.

For details: boring scientific stuff

You can do the same thing with skeletal features, which is how forensic anthropologists identify race from skeletal remains with very high reliability.

Such tests are not perfect, of course, because a certain percentage of any population is admixed with genes from other populations.
myelo
Bastard coated bastard, with a creamy bastard filling

Offline Animal

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5027
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2003, 12:21:00 PM »
If we are gonna compare with dogs, the genetical differences between human "races" are more comparable to differences between variations of, say, a Retriever, than different dog breeds.

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2003, 01:39:17 PM »
Suave: It's not so unbelievable when you consider the fact that we all came from africans a very short time ago.

 I have no problem with races having significant genetic similarity. I have problem believing that people may have closer genetic similarity with people with whom they have more remote common ansestors than with their closer cousins.

 Now to the script. I see BS right there - a whole truckload of self-contradictory crap.

1. Mitochondrial DNA traces maternal descent, they postulate that right in the script.
 Regardless of our knowlege of genetics we know for sure that africans are more closely related among themselves than they are to russians. A russian is much more likely to have a common  grand-grand-...mother with another russian or european or asian than with an african.
 Even considering that most aftican americans have considerable admixture of white blood in them, it mostly throgh white male who did not pass the mitochondria.
 If they claim otherwise, they blow up the whole significance of the mitochondria. It's like reading a text that says the letters and words in that very text are just meaningless scrambles, not letters and words.

 The mitichondrial DNAs are extremely simple and have very few genes that could differ, so if those genes were mutating randomly they could produce results inconsistent with descent. But that's BS because first, they did not have random results but ones  biased in the wrong direction, and second, the scientists do use the mitichondrial DNAs to track maternal descent successfully and know the frequency of mutations over time and know them to be reliable.

2. Mitochndrial DNA are not human DNA. Mitocholdria are separate single-sell symbiotic organism that adapted to exist in other sells and provide them with services in exchange for nutriens and protection.
 As such, mitochondrial DNA do not determine any individual or racial characteristics whatsoever.

 It seems strange that they would talk about "external differences, rooted in biology, are linked to other, more complex internal differences" but concentrate on a single element that is not responcibe for any differences.

3. All of our genetics now is telling us that that's not the case. We can't find any genetic markers that are in everybody of a particular race and in nobody of some other race. We can't find any genetic markers that define race.

 That's BS. In a people from non-mixed african and european stock there are known exclusive markers.
 Of course african-americans are only such by label, in reality almost all of them have mixed inheritance (5-25% white blood on a gradient from south-east to north and west), so for them there may not be exclusive markers.
 It's statistical for them rather than deterministic but no one ever argued that races could not mix.

 I also see many other misrepresentations in that script like "only one of 1000 genes is different, so the diffeences must be small". It's like using canvas in comparing the pictures. Sure, 999 out of 1000 genes cannot differ because they code for vital functions and a mutation would produce a non-viable organism.
 At the same time 1 in 1000 gene multiplied by millions of thousands of genes total gives us a few tens of thousands of genes that can differentiate us one from another.

 miko

Offline Maniac

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
Does Race Exist?
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2003, 01:42:41 PM »
Quote
Can you imagine a great dane with the disposition and temperment of a chuahua?


LOL!
Warbirds handle : nr-1 //// -nr-1- //// Maniac