Author Topic: bring back the old buff bombsite  (Read 2511 times)

Offline ET

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bring back the old buff bombsite
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2003, 07:49:53 AM »
I saw that mission and it had about 48 buffs in it. It started to straggle from the beginning and started too close to HQ to really have the time to form up before they ran into enemy jets. There were only 2-3 fighters that tried to help it out but none were jets.
I got frustrated and went down and strafed a tower down and got nailed by a jet trying to clear out. I was in a 109.

It seemed strange to me that 5-10 enemy jets could decimate that many buffs before they got to target. Since the inception of formations the defense ability of the buff seems to have gone down. One plane taking out three buffs on one pass ?

Maybe it would help if there was a gunner allowed for each plane in the formation.

Offline Tilt

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Re: bring back the old buff bombsite
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2003, 08:31:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Citabria
as they are buffs are not a threat in the MA.

they need better gun convergence system ai gunners or a instantly ready bombsite

 


I think ai gunners would be a bonus provided they had reactions somewhat lesser than an manned gun.

re using a precision bomb sight instead of the calibrated bomb sight in the MA?

I think the bug bear with the calibrated gun sight is the need to maintain air speed. As we do not have separate pilot and bomb aimer then we ask our bomb aimer to do two jobs (aim and control air speed) that he would not have done.

I would prefer the height and air speed locked  under auto control when entering f6 (assume that an ai pilot has taken over these two functions instead of only height)

Then calibration is set in the same way.

The ai guns compensate for the practice of interceptors waiting until the pilot goes to the bomb sight before attacking. Their ability to lead aim an incoming interceptor should be heavily damped.
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Offline artik

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bring back the old buff bombsite
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2003, 10:49:04 AM »
Lets think how much time does it takes to learn being fighter pilot:
[list=1]
  • take off, landing
  • basic aerobatics - loops, rolls, wingover etc...
  • 1 vs 1 - merge
  • 1 vs 1 - energy managment
  • 1 vs 1 - energy fight tactics, ACMs
  • 1 vs 1 - turnfight tactics, ACMs
  • 1 vs 1 - plane difference - know your enemy - speed, climb ratio, acceleration, turn capabilities, firepower, copression seed etc.
  • Gunnery, deflection shoots how to make the work done
  • Dive bombing - different stiles aiming.
  • 2 vs 1 - coaperation with your wingman at energy fight and turn fight
  • Many vs Many different merges, many players tactics
  • coaperation of fighters and strike force - dive and level bombers
  • A lot of other things - classified :D
Ok lets see what we need to be bomber pilot:
[list=1]
  • takeoff, landings
  • Navigation how to get best to your target at stright level and stright speed from less dangerous position
  • Calibrating your bomb site WOW
  • Best bomb usage - salvo, delay
  • Gunnery - defection shoting.
  • Many bomber formation defence tactics
  • Missed something???


So is it so hard for new pilot to be bomber pilot or maybe fighter pilot :lol

Give me a favor if you do not know to calibrate your site READ MANUAL and train, you killed when calibrating? Pic up gunner or take an escort ;).
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2003, 11:15:33 AM »
Couple of points regarding level bombing. Speed is critical, even 5 mph difference between calibration and dropping can throw you way off. Get your speed very stable before even thinking about calibration. I'm still working on how to be accurate with a damaged plane, especially engine damage. If you get hit on your run you may as well go around, try to find a speed you can stabilize and try again.

Another important consideration is salvo and delay. I'm not willing to share what works for me :p but suffice it to say the right combination can make all the difference.
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Offline zmeg

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« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2003, 11:32:23 AM »
How about having bombsight window available while in gunner position.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2003, 01:03:49 PM »
A lone B17 with a good gunner can take an average of 4 fighters down before he gets downed. Prolly closer to 10 if he flies 30k and manouvers.

If B17's would have been that leathal in real life, luftwaffe would have run out of planes and pilots in the first 2 weeks of the war and no escorts would ever be needed.

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2003, 07:22:25 PM »
Part of the problem is that the strats  are practically meaningless.  If there were a HQ for every zone or some real heavy strat targets to hit, the buffs would be the primary reasons for fighters leaving the ground, as was the case in WW2.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2003, 09:24:50 PM »
Quote
I think the bug bear with the calibrated gun sight is the need to maintain air speed. As we do not have separate pilot and bomb aimer then we ask our bomb aimer to do two jobs (aim and control air speed) that he would not have done.


 A good point, Tilt.

 But frankly, settling speed and locking height, is no big deal. Compared to the complicated and sensitive gadgets the real bombardiers needed to use, the AH "Norden" is a really dumbed down, simple-to-use system. The accuracy of good calibrating is really, child's play.

 As you pointed out, the settling of stable speed and course, is what makes the difference. When people miss the drop, I can bet it's 99 times out of 100 that the changing speed was the problem, and not the calibration process.

 But let's sit down and think about it.

 The calibration itself is already very easy. The only crucial part which makes the difference between competent bombers and incompetant ones in AH, is his judgement.

1. A good bomber pilot plans his course well. He seeks to gain ideal altitude, judged by his own experience - so it offers the best compromise between safety and accuracy.

2. A good bomber pilot, with his well planned course, prepares for the drop way before reaching target. He goes into a steady bombrun which lasts for 5~6 miles. He keeps his speed still, and he also keeps his plane movement to the minimum, only changing course very slightly and slowly when he deems it is absolutely neccessary, in order to hit the target.

3. A good bomber pilot, with his well planned course, who entered a good bomb run, rarely even meets any enemies while the bomb drop. He contantly asks questions about enemy activity over target. He changes course and altitude, bombrun length, and all the critical things that needs to be adjusted BEFORE he is ready to drop bombs. If he has good friends, he asks for escort.

4. A good bomber pilot, with his well planned course, who entered a good bomb run, who dropped bombs successfully on target, heads out of trouble immediately, and lands successfully.

 ...

 Now, WHY! do people think bombing is too hard? That's because they do none of the four conditions described above.

1. They plan miserable courses. They have no patience. All they do is get up and head straight towards enemy field, CV, etc. During their obvious bomber sortie, they either misjudge the safe alt needed, or misjudge the accuracy they can expect, or do both.

2. Since they either planned the wrong course, or don't have a planned course at all, naturally, they run into enemy fighters swarming upon them every corner. He gets real busy in the gunners position, and for his own safety's sake, flies at full speed. When the time draws near that they must go into bomb run, they find that they can't steady the plane's speed or course, and have to do hasty calibration.

3. Since he never bothered to ask about enemy activity, even when the calibration is finished, he is harassed by enemy fighters again and again. He may get damaged, may wiggle the plane, or at least someting happens to him that ruins his already-flimsy calibration.

4. And with the miserable drop that misses, he swears and cusses about how the calibration system sucks, and soon gets blown apart by vengeful enemies, and thinks to himself "gee, what a waste of time. Who made this stupid system anyway?".. Not for once thinking about what he did wrong.

 ...

 Frankly, the point-and-click bombsight they ask they want back, is on demand from most usually people who rarely have any experience in any type of bombers.

 What they want is something, anything, that can save them the trouble of doing all the critical things needed to do, which is what really makes the difference between a lousy buff pilot and a good buff pilot - and they still expect good accuracy despite it all!!.

 Simply put, they want to wiggle around at 25k, outmaneuver fighters that are running out of breath at super high alts, shoot them all down, and then turn on a dime, point, click, and earn bomber scores, too.

 Since all the wiggling around will ruin calibration, they want the calibration process dumbed down even more, so they don't need any critical bomb runs, but can settle down, calibrate, and just instantly fiddle with the throttle lever so the speed momentarily matches the initial speed at calibration. Or, they want to do away with it completely.

 It never, ever occurs to them that they can't have their cake and eat it too(or was this backwards?). If they want to do bombing, then they have to plan, ask questions, keep the situation in mind, prepare for the drop.

 The gunner positions, for a good buff pilot, is nothing more than a desperate emergency measure - if fighters are swarming around, no matter how accurate a gunner he is, he is going down. At least, if he wants to really succeed in the primary goal of bombing something, unless he is one of 'em kamikaze dweebs, his ideal should be to never for once, jump to the gunners position at all - instead of expecting to shoot down everything and still succeed in bombing without a proper bomb run.

 ..

 I'm sorry to say this, but the dumb-down changes in calibration they want, is a lazy man's excuse. Some features suggested, like the auto drop according to calibration, could be implemented to help take care of unnecessary risks(which is also, more realistic system resembling the Nordens) - but anything else that suggests to make the bombing more easier, is a plain fluke.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2003, 09:29:18 PM by Kweassa »

Offline F1Bomber

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bring back the old buff bombsite
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2003, 12:26:32 AM »
Kweassa people only have a small amout of time in the MA, most dont have the time to learn the new bomb sight. But you will see more people use this method bellow than using buffs anymore.

Now here is my list of other methods you can use instead of using a buff.

JABOS!!!
Up a typoon, rockets, and 25% fuel.

Fly towards the field
Hit Fuel
Hit Ack
Hit barracks
with little or no skill needed, just keep re-uping until you achieve the desired effect. Add more fighters for killing the fh.

My point being, that people have just made it worse for themselves because by adding in a complex bomb sight. People have just taken to the 2nd most accurate way of hiting targets. The useage of fighters.

BTW the layout of the fields are for the old bomb sight. The new bomb sight cannot hit the targets because, they are too spaced apart.

Offline Easyscor

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« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2003, 03:05:03 AM »
F1Bomber,
If you don't have time to fly bombers then they're not for you.  First because bombers require patience and planning as Kweassa said and second, why should it be any easier for you to be a great bomber pilot without spending the same amount of time in bombers as the top fighter pilots spend in fighters?  More and more people are flying bombers and some of them will take the time to learn the ropes and get very very good.

WhiteHawk,
Check out the new towns in AH2, it will be very hard to capture bases without bombers.  It isn't exactly what we had in mind when we asked for better targets and a more important role for bombers is it.:D
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2003, 03:12:36 AM »
Easyscor nailed it on the head. What you're practically saying is the same thing as this:

 "Hey, I don't got no time to grab alt to learn this Bore and Zoom stuff in these dinky P-51s. I wanna grab my P-51 and go instantly kill something, and learning this SA and ACM shi* takes up my time. Please dumb the FM down for me."

 ..

 Flying buffs is a risky business that takes a long time and effort which is many times thankless. If you don't have enough time to learn the proper way of flying bombers, then that's really too bad. Because that's just how the buffs are.

 If you really want to buff something, without having to do the things needed to do - you can always do that kamikaze stuff the usual MA dorks do, running into CV wth B17s and stuff.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2003, 03:17:02 AM by Kweassa »

Offline F1Bomber

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« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2003, 04:17:43 AM »
just saying that a good typoon pilot can more damage over time than a b17 can do. And in the end thats what really matters doesnt it?

Damage = Denying the enemy services like troops, fuel, air craft, ammo.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2003, 05:20:27 AM »
Quote
just saying that a good typoon pilot can more damage over time than a b17 can do. And in the end thats what really matters doesnt it?


 Exactly.

 That's why there are more jabos than bombers.

 Unfortunately, that doesn't mean we need to make buffing a kiddie's game again to see more people loving bombers. Some suggestions are progressive, but others are retro.

Offline F1Bomber

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« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2003, 05:35:10 AM »
mabe you need to make it a kiddies game of aiming again to see more people in buffs. Or change the field layout to support carpet bombing for buffs.

Only problem both solutions would have the same direct result. Except that one solution would have much greater number of people using the bombers like the old days, compaired to changing the layout of the fields.

Though, people care less about skill and want to get the job done with the less hassel. I understand that, and this is why that most people dont use buffs anymore. They are un-friendly and dont do the job that a jabo can do. A B17 formation is weak even if you have drones, you can loss all of them in 1 fighter pass.

But talking about this wont do s**** hitech holds all the cards. I have seen many good points but nothink will be done because aces high is a dieing product. The only way to change things, is to support aces high 2. Hitech knows this, and he wont bring out anymore updates for aces high.

Offline moot

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« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2003, 09:16:31 AM »
if it's too hard for the brain to do both pilot and use the bomb sight, then you either need some extra neurons or maybe just add a dedicated join slot for the bombsight position.
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