Author Topic: SSOP 7-12-03  (Read 4342 times)

Offline wipass

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 470
      • http://www.secestimating.com
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2003, 05:37:56 AM »
we were at 2.4 4 when bounced,

we took off from 4, headed west to the 2.5 1 cross, and then turned to 120, I would have said that the 3 line was our front line, this being so we were behind our own lines.

Regardless, it wasn't much fun for 101,

wipass

Offline bikekil

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2003, 05:48:48 AM »
Design of the scenario *may* put you in a situation that is not so comfortable for you (i'm just a pilot there and weren't involved in designing or plannyn any mission for my side. don't know if this is the issue here.). If this happened, you still can try to win it. If you are looking for some help with it, do what Gray said - use the CO's forum :)

(by "you" i mean every CO leaqding a side)

There is no rule forcing you to do it, but you can ask for advice or opinion... to propose something... also a Squad CO's may post theis advices ther and suggest things. This is simple but great tool we havn't used during Operation Torch.

a) bad design is allways a CM's fault
b) bad commanding is a CO's fault
c) bad flying is a pilots fault

:)

Offline bikekil

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2003, 05:53:33 AM »
===================================
"Points I feel need to be considered for future events.

Bombers should not be expected to roll from a field that is only 30 miles from a front line enemy field.
There are rear fields that could and should have been used by the bombers.
a/b?

If your frame plans include upping bombers, then you MUST arrange for escorts to be on station when needed.
b

Lose your bombers within the first 15 minutes and you are now defensive for the next 1.75 hours and extremely unlikely to achieve your objectives.
b/c
...
So getting smashed by 109's within 15 minutes while still carrying a full load of fuel and bombs with no escort is not my idea of how SOP's is meant to be."
b/c
===========================================
I believe most of it could be avoided with using a Allied foum more :)

Yes, being downed after 15mins of ANY event is frustrating and not fun at all :(

Offline Flossy

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11070
      • Flossy's Website
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2003, 06:25:13 AM »
Yep, use the Side forums - that's exactly why they are there!  So that all Squad COs can help the Side CO for each week by discussing the plans and making suggestions about how they could be improved.  :)
Flossy {The Few}
Female Flying For Fun

Offline SELECTOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2742
      • http://www.332viking.com
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2003, 08:12:56 AM »
you think you got it bad....this is the first tour for ages we have been axis...
last week we were assigned 202 to go do a job they wernt used for ...this week we were split up with mix of 202s and 109s sent to defend multi bases with planes that dont have anywhere near same range,, and we didnt see any enemy for 90 mins...
 now that a good way to keep us comming back..

Offline ramzey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3223
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2003, 09:44:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SELECTOR
you think you got it bad....this is the first tour for ages we have been axis...
last week we were assigned 202 to go do a job they wernt used for ...this week we were split up with mix of 202s and 109s sent to defend multi bases with planes that dont have anywhere near same range,, and we didnt see any enemy for 90 mins...
 now that a good way to keep us comming back..



?????
what i did wrong? f4f vs mc202 is a bad match? i really did not know about seafires. I should mention you was not forced to take 202 for whole squad. So? whats the problem?

Offline ramzey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3223
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2003, 09:58:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flossy
Yep, use the Side forums - that's exactly why they are there!  So that all Squad COs can help the Side CO for each week by discussing the plans and making suggestions about how they could be improved.  :)


you are wrong flossy

dont knwo why do you think somone will "discuss" plan of battle with CiC. As SL all what i expect is get orders and forward them to my troop. I will not complain about assignment or orders, i just follow them. I bet most of other SL too. Just following " shut up and fly".
During week i really have no time for this and orders are orders. SL must follow main objectives, thats not mean must follow every word of CiC orders.

So, forum is to post and recive orders not for discuss

Offline jordi

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6116
      • noseart
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2003, 10:33:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
you are wrong flossy
.
.
.

So, forum is to post and recive orders not for discuss


I wholeheartedly disagree.

I was CO for Frame #1 for FSO.

I posted my original plan and asked for the other CO's to look it over and spot any obvius holes I may have missed and for them to look it over and make sure they understood what I was asking them to do.

This also gives the CM a chance to look at the plans and point out anything that may be against the rules or something I may have missed or something that needed to be clarified.

It is also a great place to post AFTER Frame reports - talk about what did and did not work and why.

It is also a great place for NEW FRAME CO's to look at what went into to previous plans to help the strategize thier plans for the next frame. They can also ask questions of the other CO's to bounce ideas off of.

It is a great place for FIRST TIME CO's to see what goes into a good AND bad plan so they can learn from others mistakes.

For those CO's willing to put a few minutes a day into reading thier Sides Forum it can be a BIGG help in the long run for ALL Involved.

Just my 2 cents worht.
AW - AH Pilot 199? - 200?
Pulled out of Mothballs for DGS Allied Bomber Group Leader :)

Nose art

Offline 68falcon

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6440
      • 68th Lightning Lancers
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2003, 10:57:13 AM »
What Jordi said double.
I was allied CO Friday Squad OPS and posted a Preliminary plan of attack and requested criticisim and ideas. I received input from various CO"s and a few CM's and all was greatly appreciated.
I found it very educational and learned alot about planes capabilities, and assignments.
Some I incorporated into the Final Plan of Attack others I did not.
But as i stated it was a helpful tool
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 11:01:07 AM by 68falcon »
Commanding Officer
68th Lightning Lancers
Fear the Reaper no more. Fear the Lancers

Offline Flossy

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11070
      • Flossy's Website
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2003, 12:25:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
you are wrong flossy
Oh, you think so?  You think I don't know what I agreed to and why?  :rolleyes:  It was discussed in depth in the CM Forum (following daddog's thread asking the SO players for their opinions on how SquadOps could be improved) and we decided it would help COs if there were forums set up to make planning a bit more coordinated and allow for discussion.  We also thought it would be especially useful for COs who are new to SquadOps, to help them get a better idea.  :)
Flossy {The Few}
Female Flying For Fun

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2003, 01:30:32 PM »
Okay my DSL is finally back and I am busy catching up on the last two weeks of email and postings.

As for this thread guys this all comes down to an issue of people making decisions on each side. You have now both email addresses and forums for each side. Basically you have been given the tools to communicate with each other and plan as much in depth and ask for other C.O.s input as little as much as you wish.

Now as for the original start of the thread:

Quote

Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)



CMs do not track or indicate to the frame CiCs what squad they should assign to what planes. We supply objectives, special rules/orders and notes on what planes can be used and how many min and max. After that we try to leave things as open as possible so as not to tie the CiCs hands in creating a battle plan. After all we don't want to watch a puppet show but want to give the selected CiC's a chance to be creative and can up with something unexpected.

Now the down side of this is that some CiCs may not simply realize when creating plans that another squad has already done a tour in bombers or that a squad has done two frames in the best planes that they have for the side. This is simple an individual thing .. some squad C.O.s track everything. Some don't and don't take into consideration who flew what in the past frame.

Not much the CMs can do about this. However, as pointed out you can send an email to the selected CiC or post in your sides forum. Every CiC that I have seen usually is rather accomodating when at all possible.

But you guys now have as many tools as we can give you to communicate and plan if you desire too. If you don't .. as Ramzey states .. that is fine. If you do want to put your collective heads together and give the selected CiC some feedback that is good too.

Some CiCs welcome feedback. Others don't.

Quote

We had just climbed to 14k when we were spotted by 109's and attacked.

Not a single CAP fighter anywhere to be seen, we never got any further than 25 miles from our take off base.



Sorry it happens. I don't know the battle plan so I don't know what happen to the CAP fighters but there are always the possibility of things like this happening. A squad is late getting into position, gets pulled out of position, a squad C.O. makes a bad call and goes off in the wrong direction exposing another squad, etc.

After given objectives, etc. Squad Ops is about free will and choices. Each CiC faces a number of choices and then each squad C.O. is faced with choices to be made as the battle develops. After all no battle plan remains intact after contact with the enemy. But the event is about dealing with these choices as the battle unfurls. Just like in real life many things hinge on the CiC, the squad C.O. and the individual pilots.

If coordination seems to be during the battle among forces only way to deal with it is communication. Plus, pre battle planning via email and forums is one route. Or some CiCs have been known not fly at all and instead to act as ground control during the whole battle directing and redeploying their forces instead of flying.

I guess what I am trying to say is that somethings CMs can do and some we can not. We don't want to cross the line into a scripted event but allow for everyone to make decisions and choices.

Sometimes people overlook something or fail (i.e. two frames in row in bombers). They don't do it out of spite and are usually open to suggestions and discussion.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline lucull

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 577
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2003, 02:47:41 PM »
When I read the announcement, I thought that it would be like Jordi described.

When I got access before last sunday SO and after I got the orders forwarded, I was pretty surprised that it was more like ramzey described. And from what I read about "Allied Forum", communication is even worse there.

Even though, orders are not created in teamwork (or do you want that?), the frame CiC can ask for suggestions and should ask, if anybody needs changes (not satisfied for any reason).
But some people don't need it (our old aces) or don't want it or don't use it (like now; for what ever reason).

How about putting a more clear declaration in the sticky thread on how the side forum should be used?

And sometimes it's not enough to show the way, but also push them to the right way, too. ;)

Just one example: the admin CM could publish the orders only in the side forum. There are more ways.

I'm a little surprised, that you think the COs are using it not like you wanted them to do after 2 frames!

p.s. I would always give access for CO, XO and the frame CO  to the side forums. ;)
Yes, it doubles the work for the moderator of it. :D

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2003, 05:41:09 PM »
Lucull,

Your right some CiCs don't want it or will use the side forums. 68KO and Jordi used their side forums for FSO to bounce ideas off of people.

Its really up to the individual CiC. Like you said some will just do what they want. That is fine and acceptable. Some will use it to discuss ideas and AAR to figure out what they did right or wrong after the frame.

We will just have to wait and see how people actually end up using them.

As for posting the orders just in the squad forum. Well I would post them both their and via email. I don't want to just post them in the squad forum because if a squad CO & XO don't log in then they might not get them.

We just had a case where we thought a squad was reading the forums and knew the were the CiC for the frame. And after the fact found out they had not read the forum for like a month.

So to be safe both ways.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline lucull

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 577
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2003, 05:56:34 PM »
Using both ways of communictaion might be even better and more secure, that's right.

Posting them in the forum gives the people that like to give their input (appreciated or not) the possibility to post before the final orders are sent.

A squad could for instance say: "please let us fly B17s" or "we are historical Spit squadron" or ....

But I disagree on one point. If you really want the people to use the side forums, you should push them to use it.  It's a great idea, but it only works if all use it.

Personally, it is mandatory for COs to read the forum(s). ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 05:58:37 PM by lucull »

Offline 214thCavalier

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2003, 07:10:16 PM »
OK I never saw any of the orders, so have no idea what was actually carved in stone etc.

My points re getting bombers to up from a front line field only 30 miles from enemy, i would assume CM assigned aircraft to specific bases ?

Whoever was responsible for that 1 CM or not in my opinion got it badly wrong.

Axis Cap also suffered as stated earlier they were over target and saw nothing for 1.5 hours.

And "Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)"

This is firmly in the lap of frame CO, again in my opinion they should check previous assignments when assigning orders.

Yea I know opinions coming from somebody who puts nothing back into SOP probably are as welcome as crap on boots.

However for me SOP's and CAP are the most enjoyable parts of AH so i feel entitled to piss on the bonfire from time to time.

And i hope nobody thinks i am having a go at them personally, all CM's and squad CO's deserve all the support they get for what is mostly a thankless task.

In fact my points would apparently have been at home in the Side CO forum.

If all that happens is Frame CO's check in there, then its been worthwhile.