Too Funny! France and Germany are upset

[Ping]

Maybe its better that way Miko. We wouldnt want to accidently hit any of the Pakistan based fighters, They are your allies No?

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by kappa
If we did, how many of those do you think would support ANYTHING our president did??
AoM

I support President Bush!

I'll support his efforts to join the UNEMPLOYMENT line in Texas come 2004 elections!

He may even be able to use his Spanish!

"Donde esta my unemployment check?"

[kappa]

Originally posted by Yeager
I find his economic views, supported in tone by a bias towards socialist economics, distorted, unreliable and suspect.

How so?? Please define your scialist economics???

Distorted? Of course all things, no matter who you are, sound distorted when they do not gell with one's own ideals..  Of course, its what we bring from this distortion that counts...

Unreliable and suspect? Well maybe, but remember me this.. In the next 20years (i feel sooner) when the US economy is 8th in the world instead of 1st, remember miko for me... Remember how truths on one day can change so drastically the next. Its coming my friend unless something changes.. Relate america to your personal finances/checkbook. How long could you continue to overspend??

k
AoM

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by DmdNexus
I support President Bush!

I'll support his efforts to join the UNEMPLOYMENT line in Texas come 2004 elections!

He may even be able to use his Spanish!

"Donde esta my unemployment check?"

Month of AH says Boooosh is reelected.  Confident?  Take me up on it.

[Dago]

They pulled out and are covering in Kabul while there is much less western presence in the countryside than even during Taliban times.

I wonder where you get all your facts Miko?   How long ago was it you left Afghanistan, must have been recent for you to have all the facts.  Surely you are not spouting such stuff based on biased news reports.  And most all news reports are biased one way or another.   I have to assume you have also interviewed or at least had lunch with some world leaders to get their current stand on Afghanistan.

And tell me Miko, why did you come to this country?  If  you have so many problems with our leaders, and you have such zeal to make things better, why didnt you stay in your native country and work for positive change there?

While you cry out "the sky is falling", some of us realize that this country has withstood great challenges, and only came out better and stronger for it.  No one President or his Administration can destroy it, nor in the long term deny us our freedoms.  Mistakes may be made, of course they will be, that is inherrant with human interaction, but in the long run things will level out, freedoms lost in reaction to an incident like 9/11 will return.  We may never return completely to the way things were, but that is a good thing.  We have to accept the world and our nation has and is changing.

I would prefer to secure our borders tighter than allow more enter this county with evil intent.  Screening is a good thing.

I wouild prefer to have my trunk checked (as I have nothing to hide) than scream about my civil rights to a private trunk, while the likes of Timothy McVie blow up a Federal building and kill mass numbers of men, women and children.

I prefer to have my baggage searched when I fly than worry about some nut carrying a weapon or bomb onto an aircraft.

I prefer we lock up any suspected terrorists and clear them as soon as possible, then risk them bombing a school, poisoning a water supply because we didn't want to hurt their feelings, or risk them yelling about thier "rights".

And as history has borne out has happened, I prefer we guard against agents from other countries who would wish to stir up dissent here.

No Miko, we are not really in jeopardy of losing all our civil rights.  These things will ebb and flow through history and we will find our own legal and proper level with time, we just have to understand the actions and reactions to extreme events, and be patient and vigilant.

Personally, I feared the Clintons and thier liberal friends denying me Constitutional Rights more than I feared it from Bush.


And, I would bet a fair sum that Bush will be relected.  Our country needs a strong leader and the Democrats haven't really provided someone who fits that description since JFK.


dago

[Duedel]

Originally posted by miko2d
Do you abide by the same rules in your personal spending? No clothes from China, no computer chips from Taiwan? Or is it that you do not mind my money going back to allies? What tax bracket are you in? Are you seriously hit by AMT and speaking truthfully or just exercising your democratic prerogative to spend other people's money?

Sorry, i dont understand what u say here cause my english is too bad.

Originally posted by miko2d
No. He is not a moron by far. Wolfowitz is a good student of Leo Strauss and Adolf Hitler where public speec-making is concerned. His speeches sound moronic to you because they are targeted towards general american audience, not literate fellows like you and me. You are just not educated enough to understand that, even though you are smart and educated enough to see the flaws in his speech.
 Read Hitler, read some stuff on/about Leo Strauss, read on the neocons, it will be much cleared to you.

Hmm u have a point here, above all when i recall all the, sometimes very pathetic, emotions on this board regarding the so called Anti Americans. But I'm pretty sure that Wolfowitz is a moron (and a big one too) but not in a dumb sense but rather in a sense regarding his political neocon view i.e. he is a madman. In fact I think he's a really danger person cause he has way to much influence on his Bush puppet.
Anyway I'm asking me why he doesnt tell the truth when his explanatory statement is targeted at the "general patriotic american". He surely would have had more succes and wouldnt look like a liar.

[miko2d]

Dago: I wonder where you get all your facts Miko?

 I've read personal reports of humanitarian agencies and see casualty counts every day. Western christian charities that have operated under Taliban are pulling their people out because westerners are being stopped on the roads and executed in afghanistan countryside, especially southern provinces.
 The warlords are assuming control again, the opium production eradicated by taliban is skyrocketing again. Simple search would provide plenty of facts and testimonies?

 Surely you are not spouting such stuff based on biased news reports.

 When they quote a charity worker verbatim saying "we have pulled out", what is teh chance it is all invented? The charity website is right here to verify.

And most all news reports are biased one way or another.

 True - right and left are both skewed, so one has to be discriminating and selective and verify the statements. Not difficult to do.

And tell me Miko, why did you come to this country?  If  you have so many problems with our leaders, and you have such zeal to make things better, why didnt you stay in your native country and work for positive change there?

 You are not reading what I posted before and asking the same questions. I came here to succeed personally. My concept of success is apparently very different from yours.
 My success does not depend on your civilisation succeeding or even surviving. I'd like to avert the downfall but it is not a realistic goal  - I know that.
 I post here to open the eyes of a few smart but ignorant people and make them take interest and provide for their personal and their families - just like it was done to me.

While you cry out "the sky is falling",

 Falling on you and your socialist welfare state, not necessarily on me.

some of us realize that this country has withstood great challenges, and only came out better and stronger for it.

 You assume it will withstand just because it did in the past - or allegedely did, because it lost and defaulted a few times. You have no idea what happened in the past, and why and how conditions are different now. Your faith is blind.

I would prefer to secure our borders tighter than allow more enter this county with evil intent.  Screening is a good thing.

 One thing that the current administration does not do - neither it is arming the airline pilots.

I wouild prefer to have my trunk checked (as I have nothing to hide) than scream about my civil rights to a private trunk,

 Me too. I would also prefer to buy a life-saving drug rather than die before government approves it's use in 15 years. But I am not allowed to. I am not allowed to buy fresh milk. I am not allowed to do many more things that americans were allowed in 1850 or 1902.

Personally, I feared the Clintons and thier liberal friends denying me Constitutional Rights more than I feared it from Bush.

 There is no difference between them that one could discern without a microscope. either wone is for bigger government and more socialism.

miko

[Duedel]

uhm ur calling the USA a "socialist welfare state"?

[straffo]

the opium production eradicated by taliban is skyrocketing again.

hahem ... you have to look up this one

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by miko2d
The warlords are assuming control again, the opium production eradicated by taliban is skyrocketing again.

cool means I get get my Heroine and morphine cheaper now!

Ah... this wasn't a war for oil and not a war against terroism

It's a war for opium!

[Lazerus]

link to cut and paste

By ROBERT H. REID
Associated Press Writer

December 10, 2003, 12:56 PM EST


BRUSSELS, Belgium -- The European Union said Wednesday it would examine whether the United States violates world trade rules with its decision to bar countries that opposed its war in Iraq from bidding for $18.6 billion worth reconstruction contracts.

France, Germany and other U.S. allies were angered and surprised by the Pentagon decision -- which forbids bids by countries with no troops in Iraq -- seen as a slap after efforts to patch up the trans-Atlantic divisions over the Iraq war.

 Canada suggested it might halt further aid to Iraq, and Russia issued an implicit threat that it would take a harder line on the restructuring of Iraqi debt that Washington seeks.

"I find it really very difficult to fathom," Canada's incoming prime minister, Paul Martin, said of the Pentagon order. Martin, who takes office Friday, said he was "disappointed" -- particularly since Canada has pledged about $225 million for Iraq and has troops in Afghanistan.

In light of the order, "it would be difficult for us to give further money for the reconstruction of Iraq," said Canada's deputy prime minister, John Manley.

The EU executive body, the European Commission, said it would study whether the order violates World Trade Organization rules.

"We are asking the U.S. to provide us with information so we can see whether or not their commitments with regard to the WTO have been respected," said Arancha Gonzalez, trade spokeswoman at the European Commission.

She said the 26 contracts listed on the Pentagon Web site would be examined to see what they cover and whether national security exemptions would apply.

The White House on Wednesday firmly defended the policy, announced in a directive from U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz posted a day earlier on the Pentagon Web site.

"I think it is appropriate and reasonable that prime contracts for reconstruction funded by U.S. taxpayer dollars should go to the Iraqi people and those countries who are working with the United States on the difficult task of helping to build a free, democratic and prosperous Iraq," spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Countries that want to be eligible for bidding should participate militarily, McClellan said -- or they can donate aid.

The directive limits bidders for 26 lucrative contracts in Iraq to firms from the United States, Iraq, their coalition partners and other countries which have sent troops to Iraq.

It says restricting contract bids "is necessary for the protection of the essential security interests of the United States." Countries that did not sent troops would be eligible for subcontracting work in Iraq.

Wolfowitz wrote that the restrictions would encourage other countries to join the coalition in Iraq. But the initial reaction from other nations pointed more to a backlash.

Germany called the decision "unacceptable." :roflGovernment spokesman Bela Anda said the decision went against "a spirit of looking to the future together and not to the past" after the deep trans-Atlantic rift over the Iraq war.

German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, meeting with his Russian counterpart in Berlin, said he received the news "with astonishment."

In Moscow, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov, when asked about the Pentagon decision, responded by ruling out any debt write-off for Iraq.

"Iraq's debt to the Russia Federation comes to $8 billion and as far as the Russian government's position on this, it is not planning any kind of a write-off of that debt," he said. "Iraq is not a poor country."

Russian officials have rejected calls by U.S. officials for a complete write-off of Iraq's debt, much of it left over from the Soviet era, but President Vladimir Putin and others have said in the past that they were willing to consider restructuring the debt.

Ivanov appeared to be threatening to take a harder line on restructuring. He did not comment directly on the U.S. decision, but he said that "Russia has great economic interest in Iraq."

In Berlin, Russia's foreign minister, Igor Ivanov, said the decision contradicted earlier promises by President Bush.

Bush "has stressed several times that ... the Iraqi people themselves should make decisions about their resources," the foreign minister said at the press conference with Fischer.

German and French companies, which have a long history of working in Iraq, have already had low hopes of getting contracts, though some subcontracting has already gone their way.

French telecom giant Alcatel recently became the first French firm to win work in Iraq, winning a subcontract to carry out a third of the two-year contract awarded to Egyptian group Orascom to build a new mobile phone network for central Iraq, including Baghdad. U.S. firm Motorola is the other major partner in the deal.

A leading German industry group said the Pentagon decision seemed in breach of fair-bidding principles for public works agreed among rich nations.

"We suspect that in substance it contradicts the OECD principles for international tenders for public projects, although the United States in particular always calls for observing these principles," said Ludolf von Wartenberg, general manager of the Federation of German Industry.

Over more than a century, Germans built much of modern Iraq -- from Baghdad-Istanbul railway to the central bank building in Baghdad and the national university, along with dams, bridges, roads and canals.
Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

[Dago]

 I would also prefer to buy a life-saving drug rather than die before government approves it's use in 15 years.

Maybe you could buy some laetril?  Our drug administration is not without faults, but funny that we lead the world in producing life saving drugs, drugs that have been tested and deemed safe. Consider the alternative, untested drugs, with unknown side effects, unknown incompatibilities.  At least I feel reasonable safe when prescribed a drug that its use is safe and it actually will help cure me.

But I am not allowed to. I am not allowed to buy fresh milk. I am not allowed to do many more things that americans were allowed in 1850 or 1902.

I wish you could, I would love to hear how you feel about Salmonella.   I have had it, its not alot of fun. Since passing laws regarding such things as milk pastureization, illnesses and deaths attributable to food poisoning have dropped dramatically, darned that damned government interference.

Again, these statements just help me believe you would be happier elsewhere, somewhere without pesky regualtion designed to safeguard your health.

When they quote a charity worker verbatim saying "we have pulled out", what is teh chance it is all invented? The charity website is right here to verify.  

Yup, all our fault, all ours.  The charities worked so well under the Taliban, oh, except for those 2 girls imprisoned for their work.  

If you want to rail on about something, do it about something causing real problems, not how you can't buy "fresh" milk.  Maybe about religious intolerance in other countries, maybe about tribes in Africa hacking off limbs off of other tribes members, maybe about fanatical muslims killing people for not following Islam.

No, you worry about that great Satan Bush.

dago

[Godzilla]

Originally posted by ravells
If Iraqi money is going to be spent on the reconstruction, shouldn't an interim Iraqi government decide who gets the contracts?

Ravs

That's the problem, it's 18 billion in US money and contracts. Why should we award OUR contracts to the likes of France and Germany while they sit on their arses and complain about us from the safety of their backyards...... all the while we and our allies are on the ground in Iraq?

The US is spending most of the money and taking the risks in Iraq. What have France and Germany done? We should award France and Germany contracts while we take all the risks?

France and Germany ( and Russia) could decide to send troops and then be allowed to bid, and that seems fair to me. If they don't want to help, screw off.

[ravells]

My apologies, Godzilla. I had thought that the ultimately the reconstruction would be paid for by Iraqi oil revenues. I hadn't realised that the US would be giving the aid without any recoupment.

If it's US money going into the recoupment, then yes, sure I don't see why the US should not have a free rein as to whom the contracts are awarded to. Although Miko does make a good point that if France etc. put in a better bid they ought to be considered from the point of view of being better value to the US taxpayer - I don't think that price is the only consideration.

I only hope that there is a level playing field between the companies in the bids and that companies like Halliburton do not obtain unfair advantages.

Ravs

[Dowding]

I was reading that British companies have not been given any major contracts.

So no matter how many troops you have there, it doesn't seem to matter.