Year-End MA After Action Report (2003)

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by WldThing
Neg,  not me,  might want to ask some of the folks here if they can do it for yas,  I know Viper and a couple other folks have hosted mine before.

Rats.  Well, I have a film if anyone feels like hosting it.  It's just pretty boring stuff of me vulching and suppressing a base in a huge gaggle of friendlies.  Standard fare.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot
But, the fact is, virtually 100% of those employing energy fighting have long ago learned to TnB with at least moderate efficiency, whereas the opposite is not the case.

Too broad of a brush on that swipe ...

Yea, I re-worded that part as you were replying to say, "those employing energy fighting effectively and efficiently" to preclude those I mentioned in my example who do it, but really aren't any good at it due to a deficiency in gunnery skills.

[Steve]

presenting you with a high deflection frontal quarter shot at a high rate of closure and deflection against a target

I'm salivating. lol how Pavlovian.  This shot is bad news for the victim.  Sure you have to lead a bit more because fo the closure/angle,  but it almost always means the bad guy will fly his entire plane, including canopy through the bullet stream.  Kill!

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Steve
I'm salivating. lol how Pavlovian.  This shot is bad news for the victim.  Sure you have to lead a bit more because fo the closure/angle,  but it almost always means the bad guy will fly his entire plane, including canopy through the bullet stream.  Kill!

Heh, yea, I tried to use a basic example that everyone could relate to. You take high deflection shots for granted in P51D as I do. But, the P51D has an exceptionally fabulous nose low forward view (bubble canopy). In most planes, especially LW planes, such a shot would in most instances be "blind" as the target would pass below the engine cowling visual obstruction. Unless of course you took the shot while inverted.

In any event we are dealing with rather more complex gunnery solution situations relative to what a typical TnB engagement would involve.The luxury is generally afforded during TnB fights to get a straight 6 shot or something very close to it with a typical lead turn, very little lead is required for a very low deflection shot.

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13
In any event we are dealing with rather more complex gunnery solution situations relative to what a typical TnB engagement would involve.The luxury is generally afforded during TnB fights to get a straight 6 shot or something very close to it with a typical lead turn, very little lead is required for a very low deflection shot.

Utter nonsense.  In both situations you'll have easy and difficult shots.  You're rationalizing again without proof.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Utter nonsense.  In both situations you'll have easy and difficult shots.  You're rationalizing again without proof.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Umm, whatever you say Todd

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Umm, whatever you say Todd

That's the best rebuttal?  I stand by what I've stated.  BnZ certainly requires no harder or easier shots than any other style of flying.  I challenge you to prove otherwise beyond mere conjecture stated as fact.

You remind me of someone like Mandoble who waxes poetic about how hard it is to fly his undermodelled, impossibly difficult plane -- the insinuation being that his success in it must reflect his amazing skill rather than some artifact of how and where he flies.

How sad that you invest so much in this game and just aren't very good at it.  But hey, keep on rationalizing why that is and maybe you'll wind up being an AH God without even trying.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Nomak]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Rats.  Well, I have a film if anyone feels like hosting it.  It's just pretty boring stuff of me vulching and suppressing a base in a huge gaggle of friendlies.  Standard fare.

-- Todd/Leviathn

I can prolly help ya out there Levi.

dwisok@yahoo.com

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Rats.  Well, I have a film if anyone feels like hosting it.  It's just pretty boring stuff of me vulching and suppressing a base in a huge gaggle of friendlies.  Standard fare.

-- Todd/Leviathn

I'll host your film of your vulching and horde flying.


Just post the film on BW and I'll upload it and post the link here.



ack-ack

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
That's the best rebuttal?  I stand by what I've stated.  BnZ certainly requires no harder or easier shots than any other style of flying.  I challenge you to prove otherwise beyond mere conjecture stated as fact.

You remind me of someone like Mandoble who waxes poetic about how hard it is to fly his undermodelled, impossibly difficult plane -- the insinuation being that his success in it must reflect his amazing skill rather than some artifact of how and where he flies.

How sad that you invest so much in this game and just aren't very good at it.  But hey, keep on rationalizing why that is and maybe you'll wind up being an AH God without even trying.

-- Todd/Leviathn

I wrote a long essay giving very typical examples of the two styles and how it relates to gunnery. I see no need to re-iterate it simply because you have your panties in a bunch and choose to disagree.You have every right to your own opinions, just as I do but, your knee-jerk responses to my well thought out posts are growing quite tiresome. Frankly, a more comprehensive response on my part is a waste of my valuable time, and would detract from the otherwise constructive debate the rest of us are enjoying.

Have a nice day.

Zazen

[Urchin]

I'd have to disagree there Zazen.  In both cases you will get easy and difficult shots.  Plus both shots will become easier in time, with practice.  

For instance, a fairly common shot you'll get as a BnZ'er is a front-quarter "raking" shot.  You dive, they break into you, you aim where they are going and shoot.  Depending on how far into the turn they get, it'll vary from a straight planform to maybe halfway between a planform and a head-on.  Is that a difficult shot?  I don't find it particularly difficult, but I've been practicing that shot for about 2 years now.  

Actually, a lot of the time in a "furball" most of your shots are not tracking shot, but snapshots.  It is exceedingly rare to actually "saddle up" on one enemy in a multiplane fight.  Most of the time you take your shots were you can get them, and they usually end up being 45-90 degree snapshots, just like if you were BnZing.  Of course, you have slightly more time to aim in the latter situation, since your speed isn't as high, but on the other hand there are consequences for missing the shot.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Urchin
 

 Is that a difficult shot?  I don't find it particularly difficult, but I've been practicing that shot for about 2 years now.  

Yes, there's the key, you've been practicing it for 2 years! Not only that your hit % in fighter is astronomically high compared to the average player. Some camps your hit % in Fighter is over 20%!. I dare say ANY shot would seem relatively easy for you. I was trying to relate the typical scenarios as they would apply to the AVERAGE player, you my friend definately DO NOT fall into that category

 I never mentioned furballing, I was talking about a protracted isolated fight versus one enemy. I never mentioned furball because I wanted to keep it simple and confine the discussion to a typical Turn and Burn engagement between two adversaries. Just as in the Energy Fight example I confined it to the bouncer and the bouncie. We'll work on the Furballer vs. the E- Fighter topic tomorrow, with my upcoming Situational Awareness discussion.

Zazen

[eskimo2]

Gunnery and the AH score system:

No matter how one flies, some flyers always conserve their ammo for six-o-clock 100 yard shots.  These folks probably have a great hit %, but their hit% is not necessarily an indicator that they are a great shot.  Odds are that these players develop good flying/ACM skills to be able to get into the necessary position to kill with every shot and rely less on gunnery.

Others take every shot they can.  They rely less on positioning, but shoot and often hit every plane within 600 yards, no matter what the angle.  These players may have a worse hit% than the above mentioned players. However, if many of their shots are 4-600 yard hard deflection shots you can’t really say that they are a worse shot.

My point: like all AH statistics hit % is not a clear indicator of gunnery skill.  
A general indicator?  Yes.  
An absolute indicator?  No.

(Note, I am not advocating or indicating that one style is better than the other.  I am also not implying that players are either one way or the other, clearly some are both.)

eskimo

[Nomak]

Zazen..... Using stats (hit %) to detrmine how good someones gunnery is just doesnt tell the whole story.  It simply doesnt work.  

I have dueled Urchin many times and I can say that he is NOT an exceptional shot.  He is however an exceptional pilot.  

I have also Dueled WldThing many times and he is probably the best shot I have ever fought.  Except mabye for Fester.  They are real close.  

I myself am average at best.  I often miss shots in duels that WT can nail everytime.  However my hit % is no worse than WldThings.  

So am I a better shot than WT because my hit % is the same or better than his?  Most definatly not.

Getting a high hit % in the stats can be as simple as just waiting until your target is so close it looks like a barn.

You are putting far to many eggs in the stats basket.

[Nomak]

lol .....  eskimo got his up while I was writing mine.  Basicly saying the same thing.