Author Topic: It's Just Not Fair!!!  (Read 7025 times)

Offline Airhead

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« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2004, 08:59:53 PM »
FWIW National Guard slots were almost impossible to get and was a sure fire guarantee of preventing one from serving in Viet Nam. Nothing wrong with it, and getting into jet fighters has an inherent risk all its own, but that's the facts, guys, from my first hand experience.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2004, 09:07:04 PM »
Airhead, when I went to UPT in November of '73, there were ~300 Air Guard UPT slots. That year the Guard filled...... 3.

I don't know about 1968.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2004, 09:08:14 PM »
Bush should be commended for flying the Dagger.  From all accounts it is an evil plane as are most of the Century fighters.

It concerns me though, that after getting all that expensive training, he really didn't spend much time protecting us from the Rooskies that dared probe our ADIZ all the way into Texas.

In his 3rd year of obligation, the first year he was qualified in the F102, he was on active flight duty 43 days.  Not bad since the minimum that a Guardsmen had to do was 39 days a year.

However, he spent a total of 22 days on duty and available for flight in his 4th year of obligation.  Toad, I seem to recall that you've been a jet jocky...are 2 hops a month enough to be proficient in a vehicle like the F102?

In his 5th year of obligation he only was on active duty 28 days.  And nearly all were non-flight status as he was "drilling" in Alabama, where they had no aircraft for him to fly, and then he was grounded due to failure to show for his physical.

In his last year of obligation he did earn flight status back by passing his physical, but he was not assigned to flight duties.

All that training and in return he protected our skies from Soviet Bears for a total of 65 active duty flight days.  Over 6.5 years he served the equivalent of 25 months active duty.

Yes, he did volunteer for "Palace Alert".  However, his squadron's participation in Southeast Asia ended in Dec '69 (it did continue in Europe however).  Bush did not complete his combat crew training until 7 months later, and he only had 300 total hours when it was well known that the minimum was 1000 hours to participate.  He was in no risk of being sent into combat.  If he really wanted to go to Vietnam, there were much easier ways to do it.

I think one of the things that wrinkles my nose the most about Bush's military record is that the other candidates on my list put their life on hold to serve...Bush Jr served at his convenience so he could work on political campaigns and start an exotic plant & foliage business.  To me that says something about these candidates commitment to duty for the service of others.  The President of the United States should serve his constituents' interests and not his own, which is concept that seems lacking in Bush Jr's past...and present.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2004, 09:18:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
LOL! You're getting too desperate. :rofl
Was? Ich kann dir nicht verstehen...

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2004, 09:37:48 PM »
Du liebst Nazis. Du heisst "GScholz", nicht wahr?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2004, 09:41:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Look boys! A Nazi! Well, he speaks German so he must be one!!! :rofl

Make up your mind Kieran, am I a Socialist or a Nazi?


The Simpsons TV show provides the answer. In one episod their sterotypical action movie star was fighting a group of evil guys they called Commie-Nazis in some fighter planes. You are one of them, I think. ;)

Thought techinacally the Nazis were NSDAP, so they were socialits by name. :D

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2004, 09:44:42 PM »
Toad,

The name rings a bell but I cant place a face.  Should I know him?

Offline Airhead

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« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2004, 11:46:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Airhead, when I went to UPT in November of '73, there were ~300 Air Guard UPT slots. That year the Guard filled...... 3.

I don't know about 1968.


During the draft era there were lots of ways to "beat" the draft system, from joining a police or fire department, getting a school deferment, or, like Bush did, joining the National Guard- at the time school deferments were only issued for four year institutions and you had to have connections to get a Guard spot. Whatever, it takes brass balls to climb into a fiter jet so his courage isn't questioned by me- as far as his motives go, I can't read his mind.

personally I'm more concerned with what they'll do for the next four years instead of what they did 35 years ago.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2004, 12:35:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by guttboy
Sixpence....

I was just curious....was not meant as a slam whatsoever I hope you werent directing that at me?


No, Rino. I never knew Kerry did anything to hurt his fellow soldiers. I can't imagine someone in that situation doing anything to put his fellow soldiers in harms way.

I spent time as a mailhandler at the GMF in Boston. They hire alot of vets and disabled vets(the law requires the post office hire them). Some of them were in rough shape, one that couldn't even function on the workroom floor. He chain smoked and would mumble all the time, he looked constantly shell shocked. He looked so much older than he was. People would ignore him, but I would always say hi to him(although I don't think he understood anything I said). Word was he saw some rough situations in vietnam. We had a couple go off the deep end too, one jumped off the roof in a suicide attempt(he lived, he landed on a trailor that was being loaded, busted up real bad, but survived). Another killed his wife, stole an airplane, and was buzzing the post office. He had an ak47 and was shooting at the post office while he was flying(no lie). I mean, don't get me wrong, most of the vietnam vets were normal. Some would talk about things they saw, some wouldn't. And some of the things they talked about were pretty scary. Every trap you had to watch out for seemed to end in spikes going through you. One mentioned the tunnel rats, I guess the vietnamese had built hundreds of tunnels, and there were a group of guys that would actually go into these tunnels(big balls), but there were traps there too, one being a water trap(I never asked what that was).  I would never question them on their thoughts about the vietnam war or if they protested it, they lived it, who am I to tell them how to think about it. I mean, I feel I have no right to.

BTW, when I said being paid to be there and not being there, that was not in regard to vietnam, but to the service in general(in regards to Bush saying he was there when he may not have)

I have had many friends that did the Guard. A couple that did the Army, and one that did the Air Force. I never said anything bad about the Guard or reserves. What I said was that Bush had a nice gig that kept him out of harms way, that's the truth. Is he a bad person for doing it? Of course not, anyone with a connection would have done the same thing. I'm sure alot of politicians did what they could to keep their kids from being sent to vietnam. Is Kerry right for bringing up Bush's service? I don't think so, that's the politician talking(although I would understand some vietnam vets having some resentment towards the people who got out of going). But if your big issue is that Bush missed some time at the reserves, then your campaign is in trouble( I want to hear the real issues that matter to me). I said I think Bush shouldn't question Kerry's service, he should take the high road. I think it would make him the better person, imo. I think there are plenty of issues Bush can use against Kerry, I don't think his military service is one of them.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2004, 12:51:37 AM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2004, 02:36:40 AM »
Whats all this **** about the NG not going to Vietnam?  My father was in the NG, he also did a year in Vietnam.... and my family suffered because of it for the next 20yrs.  There was plenty of NG that got activated and sent to Vietnam.  Joining the NG gave you a "chance" of not going, but hardly better than civilians.  At LEAST those who went NG (generally) took the oath.  Taking anything away from them, calling them draft dodgers is really nothing more than showing your own well practiced stupidity.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2004, 02:43:22 AM »
Thanks Sixpence....just was curious.

BTW.....HOW BOUT DEM PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to leave the room during the 4th quarter because I just couldnt take the stress of it all....LOL

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2004, 03:37:55 AM »
Do de do de do....break it down!


Bush in interview: A critisism of my military service (or lack there of) is an attack against those brave men and women in the Air National Guard!  God Bless America! *que one manly tear, que "The Ballad of the Green Beret", hope he doesn't smirk*

Critism of Bush = Attack on ANG


BBS:  Because some (hey maybe even most) ANG units and members served with with honour and distinction Bush served with honour and distinction.

ANG is good = Bush's service was good.


Fanfreakingtastic.  This is the logic and premises some of you, and your President, are using.


Kerry = Served in the US military with honour and distinction.
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction.

And that's all there is to it, when it comes to the military service of these two candidates.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2004, 04:06:15 AM »
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction.

So to be president you have to earn some medals anfd then fake throwing them away like Kerry?

What worth is kerry's "war hero" status if the man himself denied it so profoundly by throwing away his medals? I man faking throwing them away, what a phoney...

Tell mer Threawn was getting into flying dangerous supersonic fighters the easiest way to get into the national guard? I mean if bush daddy was so powerful why not get his son a nice clerical job or something?

Offline Westy

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« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2004, 09:11:46 AM »
"Joining the NG gave you a "chance" of not going"

 A "chance" of not going? for the unfortunate Joe who did not have dad or connections sure.   Not in Bush's case though. There was nothing random about his getting into the ANG or his duty assignment in the least.    After all he'd only made the 25th quartile on his exame. 75%of the people who took the exame with him did better. 75%!  But still, he got slid right into a choice ANG slot ahead of 500 others who were much more qualified but waiting on the list.

 Bush's daddy and political connections got him into that ANG unit which flew planes that were purely interceptors.  A plane that was pulled from duty in Vietnam in Dec 1969 (they needed F-102's in Vietnam like they need submarines on duty in Iraq) before Bush got his wings. There was simply no use for an interceptor like the F-102 there.  IMO Boosh volunteering for that program after the 102 was gone from Vietnam and with him hjaving far less hours than was needed makes Bush look stupid and his "gesture" meaningless and shallow.  

 But some people poo-pooh the Vietnam aspect of all this.  Saying it's irrelevant and a red-herring.  They bring up that his REAL duty was to defend the US from the big ugly Russian bear who was poised to launch bombers at us any minute.  Well that doesn't change anything either. For Bush was not with his unit doing that duty in 1972 and he'd lost flight status for not showing up to get his physical. Good thing the Russians hadn't performed a first strike heh?

 As for the few who vainly try to spin the attacks on Bush' record as an attack on all NG personal, then and now, all I can wonder is just how good your reading comprehension is.   The issues, just as Kerry's record and recently rumoured affair, are in the spotlight to bring attention to the make-up of an individuals character.  It calls into question and examination a candidates "integrity" and "honesty" - or lack there of.  And while some may say that Bush's service was thirty years ago, old history and that people change, I say just look at the cowdung the current adminsitration has fed the US public and the world for the past couple of years. Anyone can see that while Bush's integrity and honesty was lacking thirty years ago it's sorely missing now.




I mean if bush daddy was so powerful why not get his son a nice clerical job or something?

 While flying an A4 or F-105 in Vietnam was truly risky, being a desk jockey wasn't  "PT-109ish" enough when one has a  future political career in mind.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2004, 09:29:18 AM by Westy »

Offline Dingbat

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« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2004, 09:28:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/
 


Question, why doesn't this site list their resources?  A proper bibliography would add more impact.