Author Topic: New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17  (Read 5368 times)

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2004, 03:31:44 AM »
Quote
But I suppose no ww2 movie would be complete without a couple of scenes of Germans killing innocent civilians.


Well, the German armed forces did contain high percentage of human garbage.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5755
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2004, 03:49:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Boroda,
 The site claims that the total value of the Convoy PQ-17 was estimated $700 million and comprised about 80% of the value of all other convoys before and after. That seems strange.

 miko


I found it strange too :rolleyes:

BTW, did you read Valentin Pikul's "Requiem to PQ-17"? I wonder if the film will show all the intrigue with Brits leaving the convoy alone in the way Pikul' presented it...

Offline Pooh21

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3145
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2004, 04:13:26 AM »
That was cool. Except the explosions were tiny.
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2004, 04:29:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Well, the German armed forces did contain high percentage of human garbage.


Did you say something about sweeping generalizations?

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2004, 04:42:29 AM »
Of course, the Germans were wonderful, kind, magnanimous people on the advance and pitiful, undeserved victims on the retreat.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2004, 04:46:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Of course, the Germans were wonderful, kind, magnanimous people on the advance and pitiful, undeserved victims on the retreat.

No, that would be the Russians...

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2004, 04:58:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Russian
I know. But I don’t think they were pulling out at 50 meters blasting with forward gun at everything that moved. Also those explosions look…..under modeled. Come-on 250Kg bomb does a lot more damage then that…..


The bomb explosion are too samll and dont do enought damage. However I've seen plenty of real ww2 footage that does indeed show Ju88 or FW200 strafing ships at low level with nothing more than 7.92MG, even single pintle mounted wepons...

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2004, 05:04:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Well, the German armed forces did contain high percentage of human garbage.


I dont like that statemend dowding, while the nazi party were *******s  I'd bet most german soldiers were just regual people drafted into fighting for their country, figiting for their buddies and a quick end to the war - prolly like most all soldiers.

If you dont belive that to be true and that all soldiers who did things and killed civians were by nature evil or cruel or "human garbage" I would care to hear your comments about the morality of Lancaster crews who nightly killed thousands, tens of thousands even a hundred thousand German civilans...  They were just fighting hard for their country and their buddies...

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2004, 05:20:47 AM »
I'm trolling a little Grunherz, but there is a bit of thought behind that simplistic statement. Indulge me for a moment.

Brutality was routine even when the going was good and they were winning. Just take a look at how they treated Russian civilians in 1941 during Barbarossa. I'd say that was a good measure of how far the poison of Nazism or at least the concept of race supremacy had seeped through the German armed forces. Their smug self-righteousness as they machine gunned refugee columns in France, obliterated towns and cities in Poland speak volumes, frankly. The 'bad apples in every bunch' maxim doesn't quite ring true; there's something more there, something appallingly routine and mundane about much of their conduct. While the Japanese were practically professional civilian abusers, the Germans were promising amateurs.

Now of course, there were honourable men in those ranks, good men, and it's sad they they have to be tarred with the same brush. They were unwilling spectators to it all, which is a terrible situation to be in. I'm sure it has been a burden to carry around all these years.

But having said this, the Nazi party was an insidious influence within the German armed forces; with all it's perverted agenda, this must have lead to higher proportion of people capable, willing and ready to commit acts of gross indecency against anyone deemed undesirable in the eyes of the Nazi leadership.

Oh yeah, the Russians acted disgracefully as well. No doubt about that. I've read Beevor's books about Berlin and Stalingrad. The Alliance with them came out expediency (like the Finland-German one, and that between the Swedish appeasers and the Germans). But the Western powers were always terrified of Red Europe as much as they were determined to prevent a Nazi Europe. Yalta was an effort to define an end to the hostilities, rather than having one war rolling into another. And that war would have been disastrous for the West.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2004, 05:41:36 AM »
The Nazis/Russians/Japanese did institute systems that encouraged and condoned outrages no doubt. No sane person can dispute that.

However we still have to fact that US/UK did kill hundersds of thousands of civilans in the bombings, of course there is dresden too so late in the war when things were going great for the allies and it was mosttly full of refugeees etc..

My point is war is nasty busniss which makes normal people kill other people in large numbers and that doesnt neccesarly mean they are evil or human garbage across the board othewise ther would never be hope to restore combat veterns back into their normal lives after a war..

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2004, 05:57:59 AM »
Dresden was a staging post for sending troops to the Russian Front - it had strategic importance. I know a Lancaster veteran. I've been round to his house to help with computer problems, and he showed me a few things he has from his time on the Lancs. A picture of Dresden taken from the air after the war, target maps etc. By your logic of equivalence, he's the equal of an SS soldier tasked with liquidating an entire village, for instance. Do you believe that?

This revisionist equivalence theory is unbalanced. To say "The Germans killed millions of people in an ochestrated, organised endeavour, BUT the Allies killed civilians as well" does not recognise the scale or the motivation behind the events. You're in danger of equating the Nazis to the Allies. In which case, why did we bother going to war in the first place? Why didn't Britain sue for peace, install a mirror fascist government and invite Hitler for tea and biscuits in Buckingham Palace? :) And why did Britain and the US make every effort to give Germany a fresh start and produce a democratic autonomous country after the war?

It does get my goat, I'll admit that. I have nothing against Germans, even those who lived through the war, and it was a long time ago. But WW2 was a clearer case for a just war as you'll ever see and I think the right side won, both in 1945 against Nazism and in 1991 against Soviet Communism.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 06:04:50 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2004, 06:16:14 AM »
Dresden was a showroom where allied airpower did show Russians what they are capable to do.

Like it or not it was a massacre of maybe hundreds thousands civilians.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2004, 06:20:10 AM »
You get all that from what I said Dowding?  Did you not see in the first sentance where I said it was obvious who the bad guys were in the comparsion?  You cant compare the death camps wth western allied actions in the war.

The point I'm making after that is a more general one, being that war makes normal people behave in certain ways.

And by that second point you get the dresdens and frankly just the fact that one guy picks up his rifle and shoots another guy cuz they are at war.

I think we are maybe arguing different things?

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2004, 06:25:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Dresden was a staging post for sending troops to the Russian Front - it had strategic importance.
[/b]
No it wasnt, and no it didnt.

3 days after the Dresden attacks, the pile of rubble formerly known as Dresden was captured by the Soviets. There were no German army or SS units defending the city at that time. Nor were there any German Army or SS units defending the city at the time of the attack. There were some Luftwaffe battalions scattered around the city though, but they were manning AAA.

At Yalta, the Soviets demanded that the allied used strategic airpower to prevent any west -> east movement of German troops. Since Dresden was located on one of the west - east railway lines, it was decided to kill off Dresden.

The amount of overkill is what makes it a crime though. The railway was a legit target, so were a handful of industries (most notably the Zeiss-factory), but you cant justify the destruction of the city with that. Just like the USAF didnt use 800 B-52 to carpet-bomb Baghdad to ruins in 1991 "to take out the military HQs and communications centers".

Quote

I know a Lancaster veteran. I've been round to his house to help with computer problems, and he showed me a few things he has from his time on the Lancs. A picture of Dresden taken from the air after the war, target maps etc. By your logic of equivalence, he's the equal of an SS soldier tasked with liquidating an entire village, for instance. Do you believe that?
[/b]

Nah, he is more the equal of someone who spent the war butchering civilians from a distance. The major difference is that your old chap has "plausible denial" while the SS "soldier" doesnt.

Anyway, if you read up on Dresden a bit, you will note that the BC lied to the bomber crews before the attack on Dresden. I'm sure you know what Im referring to here, since you have read alot about the air war.

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2004, 06:34:45 AM »
Best scene of those flicks was the Soviets using buckets of water to cool the barrels of their AA guns. Might be a good flick, so long as a neutral political atmosphere is maintained.

(sad, how this thread has already turned into a political argument ALREADY)
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!