New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17

[Nath[BDP]]

stop picking on the poor brainwashed soviet rube.

[Toad]

Angus, to save you having to go back and find the threads, all evidence that Katyn was perpetrated by the Soviets is simply false.

Gorbachev lied when he accepted responsibility. Yeltsin was a drunk and obviously forged the paperwork to suck up to the West. Putin is continuing the conspiracy.

That pretty much sums up Boroda's argument.

[Angus]

NONONONO!
WE MUST BASH IT INTO HIS HEAD


After all, he has been brainwashed before.....

[Boroda]

Grunherz, I am sorry, but I must admit that you are not worth talking to. It's impossible to activate your brain cells to switch you back from "dumb propaganda repeating straight flow" mode. Cold war is over. Now you don't have to repeat all the fairy-tales about "evil communists" to justify your new citizenship. Or you still have to? Look at Miko. I understand that you lack his mental abilities and education, but you can try to get rid of your habbit of repeating what you think you are supposed to say. You look much more like ideal Soviet citizen (a non-existant type here even in communist times) then Miko.

I still request your apologies - you openly refused to bring any proof here.

Toad, I am happy that some things in this world never change, like you Same old radio again I have made my position clear and appealed to your logics, common sence and mutual understanding to show you the reasons for my point of view - but you still prefer to act like a radio and keep baiting me with all that fake "proofs" that were provided by a puppet traitor Gorbachov. If there are any other "proofs" then the leaflets with obvious Stalin's recolution "against" and only Kalinin, Voroshilov and Kaganovich voting "pro"  -  I want to see it. I admit that NKVD could execute Polish officers, but I see absolutely no proof other then Gorbachev's attempt to show how "evil" bolsheviks were. Yeltsyn and Putin are obviously caught in a trap - they simply can't bring out the true facts not to offend Poles. BTW, Putin refused to apologize for Katyn', while Polish press demanded it.

Angus, I didn't answer on your accusations against USSR targeting Iceland with several ICBMs. Just think, could it happen if your country didn't join an agressive alliance? After joining NATO you simply have to appreciate the propaganda rules.

I don't want to say that Soviet system was exellent or ideal. But I see advantages and drawbacks in both systems. Unfortunately, most of the Soviet citizens faced the bad side of Western system that we adopted 12 years ago. I am far from waving Red Banner and shouting "bring back sausage for two twenty", but I want to use all the good sides of Soviet system instead of wasting them in favour of "capitalism", "free market", whatever you call it.

And I never trust what they say on TV. You guys need to live under Soviet system for several years to understand it.

Now - back to the topic

Do you think that using PQ-17 as a bait for Tirpitz and leaving it alone for slaughter was right? I don't remember, but didn't captain Lunin's torpedo hit on Tirpitz that made it return to base spoil allied plan for entrapping it?

Some Royal Navy regulations look too strange for me. Abandoning and sinking HMS Edinbourgh with Soviet gold themselves and then asking USSR to pay it again (!!!) looks not very friendly...

[Boroda]

To Miko2d:

Мико, было бы интересно с тобой пообщаться в более непринуждённой обстановке Например у нас на форуме ВБ Фрихоста: ввв.вбфри.нет

Если я тебе тут еще не остодоел - напиши на tengrie собака sky точка chph точка ras точка ru или на борода собака вбфри точка нет.

Буду очень признателен.

На форуме у нас публика разная, как и тут, от пионэров типа нашей хорватской жертвы анальной медитации,  и до докторов наук. Найдёшь интересных оппонентов и сторонников. Жалко что такой персонаж как ты пропадает для общения на родном языке

[Toad]

See Angus?


Boroday, you're right; some things never change. You're still in denial about Katyn, for example.

Yet another discussion of Katyn that Boroda will dismiss

...Until Spring 1940, some of these officers' families had been corresponding with them.  Thereafter, the families' mail was returned as undeliverable.  Inquiries about the missing officer prisoners from the Polish Government-in-Exile, in London, and from the British government went unanswered by the Soviet government...


...Then, on 13 April 1943, Radio Berlin announced the discovery of a
mass grave (at the Russian forest village of Katyn) of thousands of
Polish officers who had been murdered, it stated, by the Soviet NKVD.

After a two-day delay, the Soviet government responded on 15 April 1943,suddenly remembering and declaring that the Polish officers had been captured by the Nazis in late Summer 1941 and countercharging that the Germans had killed the Poles...6

...Under bitter pressure from its people within and outside of Poland,
the Polish Government-in-Exile demanded an investigation and called on
the International Red Cross to examine the site.  The Red Cross agreed, but only on the condition that such an investigation would be acceptable to all governments.  The Soviet government vetoed the proposal, of course, and broke off diplomatic relations with the London Poles on 25 April 1943, accusing them of "a hostile attitude towards the Soviet Union..."11


...Following its inquiry, the Commission presented its findings.  The
men had been killed in their winter coats, indicating a cool season.  
Their uniforms were in relatively good condition at the time of their
execution, indicating a period of captivity of months rather than years.
 
Their hands had been tied behind their backs using rope of Russian
manufacture.  The mail and diaries left in their clothing indicated that their deaths had occurred during Spring 1940, when they were in Soviet custody.  Several of the diaries even described the Poles' detraining at the railway station near Katyn and their growing concern about their impending fate.35  Local inhabitants testified that Katyn had been used by the NKVD as a killing site for years.36
     
The Poles executed at Katyn were all from the internment camp at
Kozielsk.  However, not all of Kozielsk's internees had been murdered,
and those Polish officers who survived to join Anders' army had compiled sequential lists of the Spring 1940 departures of their campmates.  The corpses identified at Katyn were buried in groups in the order of their departures from Kozielsk.37
     
Other evidence uncovered included tree saplings planted over the
graves.  Although they were five years old, biological analysis
indicated they had been planted three years before the Spring 1943
German-sponsored investigation.38...


 

Everyone in the world KNOWS who was responsible for Katyn...... except, of course, Boroda.

[GRUNHERZ]

CC Boroda

Now that tyhe Cold War is over I really must say that the Berlin wall was really a cool thing, fun even!!!!

[miko2d]

Boroda,

 I will take a look at that forum ine few days. I would need to get a russian setup for my keyboard before that.

 It would probably do me some good to converse in russian.

 miko

[Angus]

Hey Boroda!
Leaving debates aside, there is some recent information about PQ-17. Here in Iceland there was a double agent that had some info about this. He was actually accused by the British, for having "leaked" information about PQ-17 over to the Germans, but a deeper look ended with the Brits sending him their apologies.
The guy is still alive, around 90 years old or so. Quite a story he has to tell
I will see if I find something online about it.
Also, there is some stuff available online about PQ-17 by David Irving, - however, I'd take everything that guy has to tell through a filter, - just like your stuff at times
Anyway, untill tomorrow

[Boroda]

To Miko:

AFAIK you can get Cyrillic stickers for your Клавдия Артуровна for about $10 by mail, but it can be easier and faster to just use red permanent marker to mark the keys. I have sent my Mother a Cyrillic "Cherry" kbd to Australia, so she doesn't have to bother with stickers.

Must be an interesting experience for you to try learning Cyrillic typing. In fact I type faster in Latin - I worked as a programmer 15 years ago on Polish and Bulgarian hardware that had normal English kbd layout, unlike EC series I worked on in late-80s that had phonetic keyboards.

Из интересного на нашем форуме в основном Оффтопик (есть теперь и такое русское слово ) и исторический. Надо будет устроить тебе специальную провокашку для затравки, или поднять старые топики Сейчас вялотекущее обсуждение идёт в оффтопике в "ну, плять, политиканы....". Мылом могу представить основных участников. Есть и преуспевающие директора IT-компаний, и энтузиасты-бесеребренники, работающие в детских домах чуть ли не за харчи...

В топике "оправославились, итить " обсуждают нашу "всенародно любимую" православную церковь - тоже может быть любопытно.

Про Катынь у нас тоже до согласия далеко. Есть, например, один товарищ, глубоко мною уважаемый как хорошо информированный профессиональный флеймогон , который считает что наши таки расстреляли тех поляков - и правильно сделали, всё равно враги, и хуй бы с ними три раза. И такая точка зрения должна иметь право на существование в условиях зарождающейся российской демократии и попыток ограничения свободы слова (последнее предложение - сарказм )

В "Юморе" - самый прославленный топик с нашего форума, над которым ржал весь Рунет, и который чуть не обвалил нам форум: " мой любимый президент Путин ". Подписи к картинкам - жаргон курителей анаши, если ты не в курсе совеменного "молодёжного сленга"

To Toad:

Thank you for bringing original nazi Ministry of Propaganda version here. It's a good example of reliability of your "sources", maybe even better then giving me a book title "Soviet agression against Poland in 1920". Thank you. Dismissed.

[Nath[BDP]]

I would like to see how Boroda justifies the Soviets keeping all of there military conquests after Germany surrendered...  Postwar USA rebuilt Germany and Japan, Soviets surpressed uprisings and sent returning Czech/Polish pilots who fought Germany from Britain to jail...

only good thing that came out of USSR was teh Su-27/MiG-29 schlem helmet mounted sight with R-73 Archer missle. ;p

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
I would like to see how Boroda justifies the Soviets keeping all of there military conquests after Germany surrendered...  Postwar USA rebuilt Germany and Japan, Soviets surpressed uprisings and sent returning Czech/Polish pilots who fought Germany from Britain to jail...

I would like to see how you justify American occupation of Western Europe after Germany surrendered. Also please try to learn how Europeans felt about becoming nuclear targets and a NATO/US playground. Also please remember that we left Eastern Europe while your forces still move towards our borders.

You "rebuilt" Germany and Japan?! Damn, now go tell me you did it out of altruism!

My country lost 27,000,000 people during the War, and more then 50% of all industry, and only 12 years later we reached into space.  You got enormous profits out of WWII, and made a good investment, that was in fact payed by Russian blood...

Originally posted by Nath[BDP]

only good thing that came out of USSR was teh Su-27/MiG-29 schlem helmet mounted sight with R-73 Archer missle. ;p

LOL! A nice remark from a nation, famous worldwide for inventing chewing-gum

Sorry, I start to go off the rocker from reading such things. No offences, please...

[Nath[BDP]]

Originally posted by Boroda
I would like to see how you justify American occupation of Western Europe after Germany surrendered.

My justification is this: The Marshall plan, resulting in economic growth, and today we have a democratic, free Germany and Japan.  What did the Soviets do?  I think Grunherz mentioned it.  

Also please try to learn how Europeans felt about becoming nuclear targets and a NATO/US playground. Also please remember that we left Eastern Europe while your forces still move towards our borders.

I trust that they realized it was all done to counter a possible Soviet threat;  are you suggesting the USSR didn't practice military movements or training in countries you stole after WWII?  In fact, the Soviets were the aggressors. This is witnessed by their remaining in countries they took from German occupation during the war and never gave up untill '89.  We needed to prepare to defend ourselves against the communist aggressors.

You "rebuilt" Germany and Japan?! Damn, now go tell me you did it out of altruism!

I wouldn't.  Self interest is always a motivation; the difference is we helped.

My country lost 27,000,000 people during the War, and more then 50% of all industry, and only 12 years later we reached into space.  You got enormous profits out of WWII, and made a good investment, that was in fact payed by Russian blood...
 [/B]

I am aware of what sacrifice the Russians made in human terms during the war and I am not putting it down--your leadership at the time did, however!

[Pongo]

Might have been a lot fewer casualties is you had engaged Germany in 1939 and not Poland.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Pongo
Might have been a lot fewer casualties is you had engaged Germany in 1939 and not Poland.

Nice example of ignorance. "Everyone knows that USSR..." etc. ad nauseum.

Go find some book and learn that USSR spent months in futile attempts to form an alliance with France and UK. An allied delegation in Moscow in August 1939 failed to offer any answer to Soviet plans of military assistance to Poland, drew the negotiations to nothing, and left Moscow one or two days before Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed. Stalin had to sign a treaty with Germans when he understood that "allies" have nothing to offer. Fortunately - he have won 1.5 years of peace and saved half of Poland from nazi rape.

I can recommend you one good book: L. Mosley, "On borrowed time". A book by British historian.

Did you know that USSR was the only country that offered assistance to Czechoslovakia in 1939, after it was sold to Germany, Poland and Hungary be the "allies"?...

It's no fun to argue with people who know nothing about the subject of discussion. In USSR we had mandatory history classes at school. IMHO it's another great advantage of Soviet system.