Author Topic: The Best Fighter Aircraft of all Time (Read 17642 times)

Guppy35 · « **Reply #210 on:** March 03, 2004, 03:15:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
That would explain the filter. You do profiles as a hobby?

Yep, just for fun. Kind of my way of getting back in to model building without the glue

So far Spits, Mustangs, Hurri's T-bolts an 109Es(JG51 B of B Emil included)

Dan/Slack

GScholz · « **Reply #211 on:** March 03, 2004, 03:42:44 PM »

They are very nice. You should make a few skins for AHII when the Emil is added. I love that yellow 11 paintjob with the black and white spinner.

mosca · « **Reply #212 on:** March 03, 2004, 09:44:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Well ... that was nice.

My point was that you guys are arguing this like it was soccer teams. It's one thing to respect the pilots and the machinery, but the vehemence devoted to who should have won, or who was better, takes the event out of its context. It's like trying to imagine the universe without gravity, disregarding that it is gravity that makes the universe one. Who was better? Which planes were better? It can't be taken out of its period. Was the N1K2 (to pick an example neutral to this discussion) a great plane for its capabilities, or a lousy plane for its complexity and build quality? I don't know, but if the Allies didn't shoot them down, they were going to lose. Were the Luftwaffe pilots the best ever? I don't know, but one side was going to have to go over the bodies of the other to win, and we all know what happened.

The statistics can be scrutinized like baseball box scores, but you could take the men and machines and switch their sides, and that would still be meaningless because the Axis and Allies had different resources, different research programs, and different reasons for and attitudes toward deploying those assets. That, more than anything, makes the entire discussion a sky castle, with no foundation in reality.

I'll go back into 17 year locust mode now, you may proceed unimpeded with your arguing of minutae.

Mosca

Westy · « **Reply #213 on:** March 04, 2004, 08:41:36 AM »

"Like all wars WWII was won on a strategic level. No soldier could change the outcome."

Agreed.

For while the Germans were the best at sucker punching other countries and they made neat "precision" toys (they are cuckoo clock masters and it's only natural to see that skill expressed in thier war machines) they were awfully stupid. As in they had no "common sense" not to start a war against the world on four fronts type of stupid. And I guess that makes those that Allied themselveswith Germany morons (except the Fins. IMO they were stuck between a rock (Nazi's) and a hard place (Stalinizm).

hogenbor · « **Reply #214 on:** March 05, 2004, 02:55:33 AM »

Westy, cuckoo clocks come from Switzerland, not Germany...

Westy · « **Reply #215 on:** March 05, 2004, 08:38:35 AM »

Bzzzzt. Revisionist clap_trap.

Check out the history of cuckooo clocks. Look for the keywords; Black Forest, Ketterer,Schönwald....

hogenbor · « **Reply #216 on:** March 05, 2004, 09:09:31 AM »

You are absolutely right Westy...

---

The History
The first cuckoo clock dates back to around 1730. It was a product of the almost 100 years of clock making in the Black Forest of Germany that started sometime in the mid 17th century. Though there are a number stories of who built the first clock, Franz Anton Ketterer has been given the credit.
The first cuckoo clocks were primitive compared to those made later. Their movements were made with wooden plates and gears. Many of the clocks had square faces painted with water color paints. As time went on, the clocks became more and more sophisticated in their designs and decorations. The birds' wings and beaks were animated and some decorated with feathers. The many themes decorating the clocks were only limited to the imagination of the painters of the faces for the clocks. They included scenes of family, hunting, military motifs and more. Some were even decorated with porcelain columns and enameled dials.

Some of the more famous early cuckoo clock makers in the Black Forest were Theodore Ketterer, Johann Baptist Beha and Fidel Hepting.

By the late 1800s the cuckoo industry was some what industrialized. As well as factories where the clocks where made and assembled, Families would live and work together in large cottages, each individual working on the part of the clock they specialized in. Some carved the decorations, others assembling the movement and still others fitting movements in the cases. There were an estimated 13,500 men and women engaged in the clock making industry in the villages in and around Triberg.

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I stand corrected...

VO101_Isegrim · « **Reply #217 on:** March 05, 2004, 09:15:15 AM »

So who had the best cuckoo clocks? Germans or the Swiss?

(seeks cover)

GScholz · « **Reply #218 on:** March 05, 2004, 10:47:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by mosca
My point was ...

... to insult me and my country for reasons unknown, and that are irrelevant to the discussion. If you don't want to take part in the discussion ... then simply don't.

Angus · « **Reply #219 on:** March 07, 2004, 07:44:30 PM »

Here we go once more....
"Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
After all, pray tell me if there was other reason why the Allied losses were so high - they outnumbered the Germans in practically every case, yet they lost many times the manpower and equipment in the air. Why, Guppy? Forget all the rest, just answer this single question. My answer is better overall quality (planes, tactics, experience). "

Hehe, the Allied also bombed the crap out of Germany, raining a whooping million tonnes of bombs over it. The sank their fleets, and DESTROYED the LW down to a rarity level.
A bit costly, but completely effective....

GScholz · « **Reply #220 on:** March 07, 2004, 07:49:54 PM »

And what does that have to do with his question?

thrila · « **Reply #221 on:** March 07, 2004, 07:59:03 PM »

Anyone else find it ironic that moelders was shotup, wounded and forced to make an emergency landing by a spitfire?

Angus · « **Reply #222 on:** March 08, 2004, 02:45:59 AM »

Because of their method vs the LW tactics.
The LW could not stop them so they had to revert to the tactics of nuicance interceptions, preferrably only intercepting under favourable cirkumstances. Basically a clever thought, for a dead pilot would not shoot down a plane on the next day.
Although the British did not utilize this in the BoB, they still managed to shoot down more planes than they lost themselves.
All a question of the ultimate goal. The LW produced aces with unparalelled scores, but lost the fight. They'd have lost it anyhow.
As for Mölders, he was outmaneuvered before he was shot down.
Galland also got shot down by a Spitfire;)
Rudorffer got shot down 17 times, Rall got shot down 8 times, and so on....

p.s. Funny how this thread even twisted into the making of cuckoo clocks, hehe.

GScholz · « **Reply #223 on:** March 08, 2004, 04:03:34 AM »

You still haven't answered his question, or refuted his opinion.

"Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
After all, pray tell me if there was other reason why the Allied losses were so high - they outnumbered the Germans in practically every case, yet they lost many times the manpower and equipment in the air. Why, Guppy? Forget all the rest, just answer this single question. My answer is better overall quality (planes, tactics, experience). "

straffo · « **Reply #224 on:** March 08, 2004, 04:32:06 AM »

His question is pretty open and vague.

In which period 39>40 ,40>43 ,44>45 (to make it simple) ?

In which theater ?

You need to look at war like a whole.

For exemple a single german tank crew can kill 10 T34 it's certainly a great achievement but it serve no purpose if the enemy is able to send 20 T34.

A war is not about killing/disabling enemy units ,it's more draining/killing ressources of the enemy and the German failed to do that.

It's nothing except comptability.

The K4 the Ta152 the 262 are perhaps superb piece of engineering but they have no purpose when you're out of fuel and pilots.

I've a question myself : is it true that the flack victory were added to the total of the LuftWaffe Abschluß ?