Author Topic: what would the world be like if  (Read 1841 times)

Offline Charon

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what would the world be like if
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2004, 07:21:03 PM »
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It would have been practically impossible for the Allies to close the gap in rocketry technology. Even as the V2s were falling on London the British scientists said it was impossible. The Germans developed the liquid fuel technology that was essential to make ballistic missiles practical. The development of liquid rocket fuel is universally heralded as the greatest leap in rocket technology ever…

The Germans were in the final stages of developing the "New York" rocket when the war ended.


So what? They did great engineering to move the liquid fueled rocket to the next step, using the same percentage of their GNP as the US used for the Manhattan project. The greatest achievement of the program was tying up resources that might actually have helped Germany prolong the war. Had the allies put a fraction of the effort they put into the Manhattan project starting at a comparable time, well, I have no doubt there would have been no gap. The development of the liquid fuel rocket is the greatest leap in rocket technology ever. Thank you Robert Goddard. As for the New York rocket, how do you define final stage? One or two years from production, hope you get within 20 to 50 miles of the target?

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Germany was only months away from developing a working A-bomb. Some believe they had a working A-bomb in the final days of WWII.


No, the facts don’t support your opinion. I mean, the Germans weren’t even able to produce a working atomic pile (as happened at the University of Chicago in 1942). Where was the German Oak Ridge? Even the head of the German atomic program does not make such claims. The only real controversy is weather Werner Heisenberg, whose task it was to build an atomic bomb for Nazi Germany, purposely decided against developing an atomic bomb [edit: to be more precise, Heisenberg stated in an interview that German scientists were well aware of the specifics needed to make an atomic bomb, but recommeded against it as being impractical in the timeframe of the war], or was just plain wrong about it being remotely practical at all and was trying to save face. Evidence seems to suggest that he was just plain wrong.
   
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Captives of Their Fantasies: The German Atomic Bomb Scientists

Irving M. Klotz
Department of Chemistry, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 60208-3113

When the Nazi government collapsed in May, 1945, an Allied intelligence mission took into custody nine of the German scientists who played key roles in the German atomic bomb project. Under great secrecy these men were confined in a large country house, Farm Hall, near Cambridge (England), and their conversations were recorded surreptitiously by hidden microphones in every room. The transcripts were kept TOP SECRET for 47 years and were finally released recently. They give fascinating insights into the personalities of the guests and invaluable information on what the Germans really understood about the physics and chemistry of a nuclear reactor and an atomic bomb.

The Farm Hall transcripts clearly establish that (a) the Germans on August 6, 1945 did not believe that the Allies had exploded an atomic bomb over Hiroshima that day; (b) they never succeeded in constructing a self-sustaining nuclear reactor; (c) they were confused about the differences between an atomic bomb and a reactor; (d) they did not know how to correctly calculate the critical mass of a bomb; (e) they thought that "plutonium" was probably element 91. The Farm Hall transcripts contradict the self-serving and sensationalist writings about German efforts that have appeared during the past fifty years.  


http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/Journal/issues/1997/feb/abs204.html

Considering the German atomic program was largely unfunded, and that the Nazi’s consider physics a “Jewish science,” that should be no surprise. Germany was no where near developing the resources even required to make the atomic bomb.

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Germany developed the first intercontinental bomber, the Ju390. Capable of carrying 22 000 pounds of ordinance to the east coast of the United States. Only two were made before the project was cancelled and resources reallocated to "emergency fighter program". One of the Ju390s served with the KG200 special-ops unit and made a recon flight to New York, some say to test the feasibility of dropping an A-bomb.


The flight itself is a rumor -- maybe, maybe not. It doesn’t matter either way. You’re absolutely sure it could reach the East Coast carrying 22,000 lbs of bombs and return to Axis territory? It did fly in late 1943 and the B-36 [a proven intercontinental strategic bomber and not a maratime partrol/transport "bomber" like the JU 390] flew in 1946, but only because the War Production Board determined it was unneeded in 1944 and back-burnered the project. The B-29 was more than adequate (I suppose the He-177 equals that as well) for the Pacific and the need to attack Germany from the continental United States never developed as an issue. I do find it odd that Hitler, who wasted so many resources to terrorize the British with his V weapons, would pass up an opportunity to terrorize a few Americans as well if he could. Even if it was just one or two raids to siphon resources into home defense it would be worth the effort.

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Germany fielded the first guided air-to-ground missiles and bombs. Germany was testing guided surface-to-air missiles and air-to-air missiles late in the war.


The Hs 293 and the Fritz X and were notable achievements. Radio controlled and effective in an environment lacking a strong CAP and rudimentary ECM. The HS 293D even had TV guidance. As a counterpoint, the US Navy deployed the ASM-N-2 bat, the first fire and forget radar guided glide bomb in the Pacific. There were more than a few problems with the system (many due to training, maintenace and the operational environment in addition to the newness of the technology), but it did hit and damage Japanese shipping. If it weren’t so easy to sink Axis ships using conventional means by the middle of the war, perhaps guided missiles would have received more attention and funding. And, IMO, the Bakka was superior to all with a well trained pilot.

SAMs and AAMs like the Hs 117 and Kramer X-4 were also interesting weapons. Still, they were visually guided and of questionable accuracy -- never operational, but innovative. But not so far ahead (far less in fact compared to a V-2) than what Allied technology could provide if needed, which they obviously weren’t.

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Germany fielded the first jet fighter, jet bomber, and rocket interceptor. Not until the F-86 and Mig-15 did anyone develop a fighter that outperformed the Me-262.


The P-80 outperformed the Me-262 in all aspects but diving. It outperformed the first Mig-15 it ran into as well.

P-80A
Speed: 558 mph
Climb: 4,580 fpm
Range: 780 miles
Ceiling: 45,000 feet

Me-262
Speed: 540 mph
Climb: 3,937 fpm
Range: 650 miles
Ceiling: 38,000 feet

Reliability: Both had initial problems. The P-80 solved it’s fairly quickly and served in trainer versions into the 1990s. What about wing loading?

The YP-80 was designed and built using the British De Havilland jet engine in a mere 143 days, after evidence of the Me-262 was discovered in 1943. You seem to confuse a lack of technical ability with a lack of interest. When the interest was there, Uncle Sam just wrote the appropriate check and made it happen.

[Edit: The GDP and program cost figures for the Manhattan project and V-weapons programs need further anlysis. The US GDP tended to run 2 to 4 times that of Nazi Germany during the war, and not 10 times as is suggested. If the $20 billion figure is actually adjusted 1996 dollars and not 1940s dollars, then the progam cost for the Manhattan project and the V-weapons programs don't match up to some stated figures. Someting to look into when time allows.]


Charon
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 03:14:03 PM by Charon »

Offline NUKE

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what would the world be like if
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2004, 08:06:44 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Germans developed the liquid fuel technology that was essential to make ballistic missiles practical. The development of liquid rocket fuel is universally heralded as the greatest leap in rocket technology ever.



The American, Dr. Robert Goddard was the rocket pioneer and the Germans studied his results for their rocket programs.

Goddard launched the world's first liquid fueled rocket on March 16, 1926..... having first conceived of the idea in 1909

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2004, 08:08:44 PM »
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/75th/history.htm


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GODDARD'S HISTORIC FIRSTS

First explored mathematically the practicality of using rocket propulsion to reach high & altitudes and even the moon (1912);
First proved, by actual static test, that a rocket will work in a vacuum, that it needs no air to push against;
First developed and shot a liquid fuel rocket, March 16,1926;
First shot a scientific payload (barometer and camera) in a rocket flight (1929, Auburn, Massachusetts);
First used vanes in the rocket motor blast for guidance (1932, New Mexico);
First developed gyro control apparatus for rocket flight (1932, New Mexico);
First received U.S. patent in idea of multi-stage rocket (1914);
First developed pumps suitable for rocket fuels;
First launched successfully a rocket with a motor pivoted on gimbals under the influence of a & gyro mechanism (1937).


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In 1914, Goddard received two U.S. patents. One was for a rocket using liquid fuel. The other was for a two or three stage rocket using solid fuel


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Towards the end of his 1920 report, Goddard outlined the possibility of a rocket reaching the moon and exploding a load of flash powder there to mark its arrival. The bulk of his scientific report to the Smithsonian was a dry explanation of how he used the $5000 grant in his research. Yet, the press picked up Goddard' s scientific proposal about a rocket flight to the moon and erected a journalistic controversy concerning the feasibility of such a thing. Much ridicule came Goddard's way. And he reached firm convictions about the virtues of the press corps which he held for the rest of his life. Yet, several score of the 1750 copies of the 1920 Smithsonian report reached Europe. The German Rocket Society was formed in 1927, and the German Army began its rocket program in 1931. Goddard's greatest engineering contributions were made during his work in the 1920's and 1930's (see list of historic firsts). He received a total of $10,000 from the Smithsonian by 1927, and through the personal efforts of Charles A. Lindbergh, he subsequently received financial support from the Daniel and Florence Guggenheim Foundation. Progress on all of his work was published in "Liquid Propellant Rocket Development," which was published by the Smithsonian in 1936.

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Goddard's work largely anticipated in technical detail the later German V-2 missiles, including gyroscopic control, steering by means of vanes in the jet stream of the rocket motor, gimbalsteering, power-driven fuel pumps and other devices


You dont think the US could have had a nice rocket program just as advanced, maybe more so, than the Germans if the government spent the money on it?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 08:25:12 PM by NUKE »