Author Topic: GV questions/concerns  (Read 2627 times)

Offline hitech

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GV questions/concerns
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2004, 12:28:15 PM »
Moil, how about you give just a little thought about posting what you wish with out the comments like "thats sorta lame".

Comment like that mostly make me not respond to a poster.

The resone is because tank gun's are treated differently then hi rate of fire machine guns. Is somthing that can be added to AHII.

In the future do not excpect me to respond if you continue to post in a method simalar to you last one.


HiTech

Offline humble

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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2004, 03:12:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
Humble, when you call somebody's work "garbage", it is attacking and it is insulting and it's certainly not constructive criticism.

You sound like you just want a damage model that deals in "hits".  Like 1 hit from Tank A will destroy Tank B.  2 hits from Tank B will destroy Tank A.  Well that's not the way it works.  Tanks aren't evenly armored, projectiles don't always penetrate the same.  You sound like you would prefer a simpler system, yet your arguments run counter to that.


1st,

Thanks for taking a moment to reply...

I completely disagree that calling a specific piece of a product garbage is an attack or is automatically insulting. It's simply criticism of one component. I've tried to make it constructive not combative in nature. I simply don't think it measures up to the standard you've set for yourself.

You sound like you just want a damage model that deals in "hits".  Like 1 hit from Tank A will destroy Tank B.

Not quite, I think in GV action a damage model that deals in penatration is appropriate. My understanding is that penatration is the critical component. Even a small caliber bullet entering thru the driver slit...or a rivet driven back into fighting compartment (not uncommon in Grants or early Shermans) was usually catostrophic.

Like 1 hit from Tank A will destroy Tank B.  2 hits from Tank B will destroy Tank A.  Well that's not the way it works.

I agree with this statement entirely, no amount of hits will defeat armour beyond the penetration capabilities of the projectile (unless they hit exactly same spot)...plenty of documented cases of a panther or tiger taking 20...30...50 or even 237 hits and surviving......

So how does a PZ IV defeat the frontal armour (front not top) of a tiger at ~3200 yds repeatedly

Tanks aren't evenly armored, projectiles don't always penetrate the same

Again I couldn't agree with you more, I've tried to point out the "normal" degree of variation and demonstate I've spent enough time "in the turret" to have some feel. When you repeatedly "see" someone roll "snake eyes" 5 times in a row you start to wonder. Example...I hit a PZ last night at ~2600 yds...3rd hit popped his turret...hit him 7 more times before he died...mad...no...how many times am I going to turret kill him:) It's simply at one end of the bell shaped curve...no different than the ~3200 yd golden BB....but when you see a guy with a clip full of golden BB's you wonder...

Thanks again for taking a moment to respond, thats all I (or any other customer can ask for). My comments are/were ment as constructive criticism of your product...not as an attack on you or your overall efforts.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline humble

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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2004, 03:31:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKcurly
.....
M8s (in the real WW2) killed tigers by sneaking up behind them and killing the engine.  It usually caused a fire and the crew bailed.

curly


curly....

I appreciate your comments...I spent a couple months prior to even bothering getting "wrapped around the axle" about this stuff. I don't completely disagree with your comments but I think your over simplifying. As you and I both know the "impossible" becomes pretty clear over time in "air combat". Now GV combat is much simpler (to me at least)...you have less variables. As an example I got hammered by topgunz a bunch last night...SOB simply gets lead on me faster than I can get lead on him. I can understand and live with that....nowreferring to your above post...I hit a tiger with a PZ from ~600 yds 30+ times in rear facing without killing it last week.

I'll take one of your noob comments a step further...lets say a noob golden bb'd you every time he hit you (anywhere any angle any didstance) and everytime you hit him at 200 yds dead tracking shot you got nada....

Thats extreme and not really accurate...but really how it feels sometimes. I've had guys kill me 3-4 times in same tank with a single shot while i've hit them 7-10 times (while they in same tank) {no suppies} meanwhile they've killed 3-4 other guys and been hit by them as well....if this was going on in the air you have 100+ guys having a conipfit (new word for #$#%^).

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts...Hitech took afew moments to reply and thats all I can ask for.

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Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2004, 04:53:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
curly....

clear over time in "air combat". Now GV combat is much simpler (to me at least)...you have less variables.



But is it? You get enough hit sprites (in a airplane) and your opponent is going down, regardless of the angle of attack or the point of penetration.

With GVs, point of penetration and angle of projectile are all important.

I agree that maneuvering aircraft is much more challenging than maneuvering GVs, but I think gunnery is much more challenging in a GV.  You not only have to aim correctly, but you have to be certain of your target.  For example, it's not safe to assume the main gun on a panzer points away from the engine.  He may have rotated the turret.

curly

Offline humble

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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2004, 05:23:03 PM »
But is it? You get enough hit sprites (in a airplane) and your opponent is going down, regardless of the angle of attack or the point of penetration



EXACTLY...

So if I hit you X times at Y yards I have basic assumption "your going down"....now if you don't it's "breaks of the game"...we all live with it...but if its a repeating pattern then what.

You and I have had some great fights over the years (flying as azhacker now, was snaphook before I think) a lot of times in a tough knife fight you'll trade snapshots...1 guy gets no damage other guy loses a wing...some of its skill...some of it luck...it's all part of the game.

now in GV...two guys hook up...1st guy hits...no dmage...2nd guy hits "pop"...again part of the game...next time around guy 1 hits and gets "engine kill" 2nd guy gets a ricochet...break of the game...and so on....But you get jump on a GV hit him 3, 4 or 5 times with no damage and he kills you 1st shot...you come back and hit him 3 more times with no damage and he kills you 1st shot what do you think.

I find that I'm agreeing with 95% of whats being argued against me....because I'm "discounting" that portion of the equation. I'm focusing on the 5% that falls outside the "reasonable expectations" based on repeated experience. If you had a zeke outrun your pony you'd say no problem guy must of zoomed down before I saw him with a bunch of E...if you saw 500mph zekes repeatedly you'd begin to question it.

I certainly dont want to beat a dead horse, the bottom line is I'm not a noob...i've been taken out to the woodshed a bunch and don't whine (much:)). I understand the issues and progression. As a 10 yr vet on multiple platforms I'm simply stating that some of what I'm observing goes well beyond skill set variation and damage model randomization.

My guess is your questioning the messenger and discounting the validity of the message.

If I hit a PZ 4 times from ~1200 yds on its side facing what is the probability of it dying (or getting damage)? If said PZ hits me once on my front facing what is the probability of my dying outright. If next time I hit same PZ 3 more times on side facing what is probability of damage/death...again I get killed on 1 shot to front facing....meanwhile thissame tank has engaged and killed 5+ other PZ's and been hit other times...

Just one specific example among many...I don't have a clue what/where the problem is...but I can tell you there is one.


Anyway, think its time to let this one die, I'm sure that over time whatever valid issues exist will be reviewed and corrected.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2004, 05:39:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble

My guess is your questioning the messenger and discounting the validity of the message.
 [/B]


Nope, I hear the same complaints from squadmembers.  I just think GV gunnery is more complex than you believe.

I believe the randomness (today, you get one hit kills on everyone, yesterday, it took multiple hits) of GV gunnery is controlled to a large extent by the orientation of your target.

Because a turret is pointed at you doesn't mean that it isn't the rear of the tank.  Hit it there with ap, boom.

How are you determining the the orientation of the target with respect to you?

curly

Offline humble

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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2004, 07:14:49 PM »
clear open line of sight, in every case I'm mentioning I have clear vis and can see exactly where I'm hitting, my orientation is controlled by aligning the machine gun up top to gun barrel and driving with "rudder"...aligning target in crosshair vertical and popping to F2 view...usually I can get a round in at speed then hop to F1 kill engine fire as tank brakesand again at stop...learning to get three rounds in ~2000-1600 that way. In the above mentioned incident guy was engaging multiple GV's...saw him pop 1 and take a 2nd under fire so was able to pull up and stop before firing...got 4 observed hits on his side view (full unobstructed profile) he got me with one shot...re upped and went back (short drive) watched him kill 2 other tanks otw...reengaged him and hit him 3 more times died again...was coming back for 3rd time when he finally died. i'd say he was hit at least 12-15 times...99.9% sure there were no supplies around (he never even smoked from my hits). My argument isnt gunnery (except maybe at long range) it's damage. for at least 2-3 weeks I was MFing everybody and anybody...now I can hold my own with 70% of the guys I run into. and I understand the randomization cuts both ways...I've got 1 hit kills at "long" (~2400-2800) range...but i've also had plenty of times I've had guys survive 5-6+ hits at that range. Now armour on a facing should be pretty consistant i.e no "magic weak spot" on your front facing. I can hit a turret a track or front center at ~2400. The "optics" of my gunsight don't allow me much better at ~1600 I can hit the driver slit (well some of the time:D )...it doesnt seem to make a big difference. How do you (and why should it matter) get golden BB's at 3200+ by hitting a "specific spot" as some claim.

going back to your plane argument...if you get on my 6 at reasonable range (~300 yds) and load me up with your 6 x .50's you'll expect me to die ... period ... end of argument. If I get a reasonable shot at a reasonable range multiple occasions I expect the GV to die ... period ...

Now what's reasonable will vary tiger vs m-8 is different then pz vs pz...but a pz "should" die if engaged by a pz on a side armour shot at ~1200-1600 yds based on my experience a reasonable % of the time ~25% and should be damaged a reasonable % of the time ~50% so3 out of 4 times you should damage or kill a GV at that range on a "T-bone" shot. I've found that face to face I survive about ~50% of face shots without damage and suffer damage to turret or engine ~40% only about ~10% of the time do I "pop" on 1 hit (or get a kill) at ~1600 yds {my guess here fill in yours)....

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Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2004, 07:31:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
clear open line of sight, in every case I'm mentioning I have clear vis and can see exactly where I'm hitting, my orientation is controlled by aligning the machine gun up top to gun barrel and driving with "rudder"...aligning target in crosshair vertical


Humble, suppose you're plinking a guy and nothing is happening.  How do you know you aren't hitting the glacis (slanted armor surface at the front of the tank)?  How do you distinguish between head and tail?

curly

Offline humble

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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2004, 09:10:25 PM »
That depends on range and vis...I can tell front from back at fairly long range ~2400 for sure...beyond that it gets tougher. At the ranges I'm talking about its easy to see the driver slit or the exaust pipes/muffler in back.

Also, i'm assuming the "little flash" is a ricochet and the "Big flash" is a round that penitrates....so you can tell if your round "hit" or bounced off.

EX...I just got home and grabbed a tank...we had em beat back a bit...crested hill by there VH a bit (maybe full hulldown maybe not)...anyway 3-4 tanks...picked 1 missed him...2nd round "bounced off" (little flash) another tnak took out my turret on 1st hit (pretty much in line with my "stats" earlier...hit rev backed out and limped back to my VH and logged for dinner etc...pretty typical. "bad guy" I hit was ~1900 and I hit him on his left part of turret (front) on gun mantle (no soup for me) easy to see where I hit him and his orientation...got exactly what I deserved from the shot.

It's like your telling me you but 400 rds of 50 cal in my wing root at 250 yds and asking why nothing fell off.

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Offline MOIL

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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2004, 10:28:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Moil, how about you give just a little thought about posting what you wish with out the comments like "thats sorta lame".

Comment like that mostly make me not respond to a poster.

The resone is because tank gun's are treated differently then hi rate of fire machine guns. Is somthing that can be added to AHII.

In the future do not excpect me to respond if you continue to post in a method simalar to you last one.


HiTech


My apologizes to HT for the "lame comment"
I will keep negitive, unhelpful and useless comments to myself.

Sorry to offend, I just figured I guess in my mind that since I pay to play this game and I find something that is......um......."unlikable" I should be able to state how I feel about it.
Apparently not, so I apologize to HT & the community.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2004, 11:58:38 PM »
The thing is Pyro, Hitech, us players can't always understand what happens on around us.

 Strange things do happen - like others said, sneaking up on an enemy tank at zero range and blasting away a few shells, the enemy tanks doesn't explode.

 It turns its turrets onto me, and then wham! one point blank range from his, and I'm dead. I'd understand if something like that happened from further ranges, but at point blank?

 Granted, I've got no recording of it - it is admitably a rare instance. Also, most of the times the results are more or less satisfying - usually the first one discovers the other, and starts landing shells winning the battle.

 ..


 However, in some of the strange occasions, (or even normal occasions..) the lack of visual representation of what happens around when two GVs engage just fuels the confusion even more. I'm not exactly thinking of a movie quality visual, but really, when all we've got is a graphic of a shell flying and a white glob of a momentary hit sprite... it's pretty damn hard to determine what's going on, or understand what is happening.

 If there was someway we could perceive what was happening when we fire, land, and receive hits in the GVs in more detail, I think the complaints would simmer off a bit. Like, if we could tell that the round we've fired was a well placed hit, a bounced hit, or a just hit which unfortunately failed to penetrate..  something like maybe a well placed round giving off a hardy blast upon the target's surface, with bits and chunks of metal flying off... a bounced round which looks like it hardly done enough damage.. and a failed-to-penetrate round throwing off only a little bit of dust and smoke.. and etc etc.

 And maybe if the visuals could portray the damages as seen in some planes in AH2 - like, crunched and battered metal plate which indicates the round hit but the armour held together.. or a largely drilled hole with messy blast rings around it indicating a penetrated hit.. and etc etc..

 Also, we could use some better damage list - as in, if the round penetrated, which part of the turret with what component was damaged.. and etc etc.

 ..

 What I'm saying is, ppl are making rash and hasty conclusions based on wrongly perceived string of events.. but their confusion itself is not entirely unjust - very little info for them to make judgements on, so its not surprising ppl come to wrong conclusions.

 I just hope there's something better in stores for AH2 GVs to come :) No doubt if HTC really makes a decision to implement something, it's gonna be great - (just wish that the decision comes quick! :)  )

Offline moot

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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2004, 12:07:12 AM »
Moil I humbly suggest a few posters look at this: not rocket science...
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Offline emodin

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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2004, 03:43:46 AM »
Quote
Not quite, I think in GV action a damage model that deals in penatration is appropriate. My understanding is that penatration is the critical component. Even a small caliber bullet entering thru the driver slit...or a rivet driven back into fighting compartment (not uncommon in Grants or early Shermans) was usually catostrophic.


Not exactly.  For instance, the Soviets were using 14.5mm Anti-Tank Rifles thorughout WW2 (poor guys didn't develop a bazooka to the best of my knowledge).  Now, the 14.5mm ATRs were able to penetrate German tank armor in the early war period, but they did NOT have a large degree of success in killing tanks even then.   As I understand it, the round would penetrate the tank armor just fine, but the problem was that since the round didn't cause any significant spalling, the shell itself would have to actually hit a crew member in order to kill anyone.  Now this may sound easy, but while tanks weren't exactly roomy, they were spacious enough that a 14.7mm projectile had a fairly hard time taking out tank crews.   There is some really interesting information out there on these rifles (do a google search for "PTRD" and check out the acrobat link).

As for rear hull hits, I have not personally been able to kill any tanks by shooting their rear hull armor.  I SUSPECT that the damage model does not allow the shells to pass through the engine compartment (my guess is that it acts as a hit location, and does not model the possibility for the shell to continue through-I could be wrong).   I have been on sorties where I have personally absorbed over 10 AP hits from Panzers and Tigers at close ranges that did nothing more than kill my engine.  I have also hit enemy tanks in the engine compartment to no effect.  If I remember correctly, when a couple of squadies and I were doing some testing for our GV manual, we tried to kill each other with rear-hull penetrations only, and didn't meet with any success.

A note on penetration hit sprites: they can be deceiving.  During testing, we found out that even if you get a penetration hit sprite, they may not take any damage.  I assume this represents partial penetrations (where you penetrate, but do no damage).  In all of these instances, the penetration hit sprite would be visible for the firing tank, but the other player did not hear the penetration noise, and not amount of hits in the same area would result in damage to the tank.  This only occured in our tests at ranges just before actual damaging penetrations would occur.

Offline humble

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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2004, 12:44:15 PM »
What I'm saying is, ppl are making rash and hasty conclusions based on wrongly perceived string of events.. but their confusion itself is not entirely unjust - very little info for them to make judgements on, so its not surprising ppl come to wrong conclusions.

Well stated...but honestly I feel like I'm avoiding making rash and/or hasty conclusions...I'm simply relaying my personal observations and asking for clarification on what I'm experiencing. So far I haven't been presented with anything that provides a context that allows me to "understand".

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Offline humble

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« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2004, 12:51:07 PM »
Not exactly. For instance, the Soviets were using 14.5mm Anti-Tank Rifles thorughout WW2 (poor guys didn't develop a bazooka to the best of my knowledge). Now, the 14.5mm ATRs were able to penetrate German tank armor in the early war period, but they did NOT have a large degree of success in killing tanks even then. As I understand it, the round would penetrate the tank armor just fine, but the problem was that since the round didn't cause any significant spalling, the shell itself would have to actually hit a crew member in order to kill anyone. Now this may sound easy, but while tanks weren't exactly roomy, they were spacious enough that a 14.7mm projectile had a fairly hard time taking out tank crews. There is some really interesting information out there on these rifles (do a google search for "PTRD" and check out the acrobat link).

Very interesting...at odds with my own reading etc...but certainly presents the point that penetration doesn't equal "autokill"...my understanding is based on information I picked up at aberdeen proving grounds over the years...at one point they had a tank with inside painted white...single .45 fired through driver slit...hundreds of richochets visable...lot of damage to tank...statement that crew survivability from even a pistol round was minimal. Now obviously spalling (fragments of armour that "break off" inside of tank or get pushed through by shell) is another component.

Do you have any information on survivability and higher caliber rounds 37mm/75mm since thats what we're talking about here?

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