Suggestion on perk values..

[Replicant]

You forgot

190A8
190A5

If you're going to perk the Typhoon then perk these 190s.

Of course, I'd prefer HTC to set the perk values, I don't agree with perk planes and all it would do is force people into non-perk planes.  I get tired of all the luftweenies wanting to perk the RAF metal.

Support my new perk Agenda:

Perk 109G6, 109G10, 190A5, 190A8, 190D9

These planes are going to be the new La7 in AH2

 Annoying eh?  But Kweassa doesn't want to perk the planes he flies.

[doobs]

How the nik2 is not perked is amazing.  almost 900 cannon rounds, climbs quick, flys fast, good fuel load. And they are everywhere in the MA.

But to Fly a C-hog I have to pay 10 perks to get half the rounds of cannon, and what seems only half the fuel range.

I remember reading a post that they perked the c-hog because of the number of them that would be up.  If that the case then I hardly see f4's compared the the likes of the niki, la7, and spit 9.
I'd like to see the c-hog freed from perks or the aforementioned three planes perked.

This whine has been brought to u and paid for by;

Hog anti discrimination league
and
The C-hog de-perkulation team:aok

[straffo]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I dont care what other perk scheme is used but there is NO way ANY spit should be only 5 perks.

Perk all US Navy planes they're just ugly

[GScholz]

Perk point costs has nothing to do with history, numbers in service, when they were introduced etc. It's simply a balancing tool in the MA.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/perks.html

[Replicant]

Originally posted by GScholz
Perk point costs has nothing to do with history, numbers in service, when they were introduced etc. It's simply a balancing tool in the MA.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/perks.html

It also depends on what country you fly for.

I fly Bishop.  Bishops have a lot of RAF squads.  I perhaps see about 10 Typhoons every tour, whereas I see hundreds of 190s and 109s.  So, apart from the N1K2, P51, Spit9 and La7, the most planes I see are 109s and 190s but I don't want it 'balancing' because I realise there are a lot of Luftwaffe squads over in Rook/Nitland.  Whereas someone in Rook/Nitland might see a lot of RAF planes and then start whines to balance the arena for their own personal satisfaction.

Hehe Straffo, perk the US Navy planes; they are ugly indeed!

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Karnak
He is probably basing that on historical usage and numbers because by perfromance the Spit XIV will eat a Ta152 for lunch below 30,000ft.

I believe Perk Values are a Game Play issue and nothing more.
So historical usage shouldnt factor in at all.

[Kweassa]

Replicant

You forgot

190A8
190A5

If you're going to perk the Typhoon then perk these 190s.

Of course, I'd prefer HTC to set the perk values, I don't agree with perk planes and all it would do is force people into non-perk planes. I get tired of all the luftweenies wanting to perk the RAF metal.

 Why? The Typhoon we have is a 1944 plane without any of its initial problems of 1942, that carries a very heavy ordnance load and respectively used as premiere ground attack/base suppression fighter. Not to mention that it is the fastest unperked plane on deck, heavily armed, and also the fifth most used plane of them all.

 Neither the Fw190A-8 nor the Fw190A-5 comes close to the Typhoon in any way possible; arena usage, impact, ground attack, A2A role, performance, and historical timeline all together.

 If the Fw190A-8 carried 2000lbs, and runs 380mph at deck in clean configuration, and sees fifth most usage then yeah, I'd want to see it perked.

Annoying eh? But Kweassa doesn't want to perk the planes he flies.

 Quite contrary. As the MA is, the only competitive 109 for my personal skill level is the Bf109G-10, since it can run away and let me live. However, I would not mind seeing it get perked. It's suggested at 3 points. It's not like I have to work my prettythang off to amass 200 perks in 6 months to fly it. I wouldn't be able to fly it all the time, but the price is good enough to indulge with it once in a while, maybe one G-10 sortie in every five~ten sorties in 'lesser' 109s.

 Since, the whole 'section' of the late war fighters being perked, will produce people in simular situations as me, and I will usually fight other people in mid-war planes.

These planes are going to be the new La7 in AH2

 They never were, and they never could be. The stats over the years clearly show what planes people fly and what they aren't attracted to. I didn't bring up these values arbitrarily - it's a result of studying the usage/kill percentage stats of some 46 tours.

I fly Bishop. Bishops have a lot of RAF squads. I perhaps see about 10 Typhoons every tour, whereas I see hundreds of 190s and 109s. So, apart from the N1K2, P51, Spit9 and La7, the most planes I see are 109s and 190s but I don't want it 'balancing' because I realise there are a lot of Luftwaffe squads over in Rook/Nitland. Whereas someone in Rook/Nitland might see a lot of RAF planes and then start whines to balance the arena for their own personal satisfaction.

 Again, that's not what the actual stats suggest. There has been minor shifts in usage levels of various planes, with the introduction of "specialized" maps such as BigIsles, where the tendencies in general plane usage differs from 'normal' maps.

 However, the Typhoon, in most other tours, is wedged in the 5%~7% usage, which is clearly higher than most of the other planes. Remind you, that the four most used planes each show 10% usage, and the fifth, Hawker Typhoon is lodged between 5%~7%. 45% of usage is with only five planes. The sixth, seventh most used planes come in at 2~3%. The Typhoon, sees almost double the usage than the plane directly behind it. And the "Big Four" see double the usage of Typhoons.

 If there indeed many RAF squads in Bishops, then it'd actually be more benevolent for you people, as clearly the perkage applied to latewar planes would raise the probability of less capable(mostly less fast) planes appearing as your main opponents for the Spit9. Or does the RAF squads necessarily need a plane that carries 2000lbs ordnance load, quad hispanos, and outruns every other unperked fighter on deck, to be competitive?

 Or, is 3 perk points really that harsh that it renders normal operations impossible?

 Your suggesting a nuance that I am biased, which is clearly insulting, as I am not. My squaddies fly P-51s mainly. Other close friends fly variety of many planes which are suggested to be perked, and I myself fly a plane which I think should be perked.

[Kweassa]

Perk point costs has nothing to do with history, numbers in service, when they were introduced etc. It's simply a balancing tool in the MA.

I believe Perk Values are a Game Play issue and nothing more.
So historical usage shouldnt factor in at all.

 ..

 Except that 1) arena balance and impact, is 2) usually associated with general performance, 3) which is in most cases in historical relation of the timeline the fighters were introduced.

 Let's not pretend to be naive - fighters that unbalance the arena are generally high performance planes which offer very high qualities in at least one of the many attributes a fighter holds.

 The main, "official" component of logic behind perking planes is arena impact and usage. Except it doesn't operate alone. There are actually three main factors to consider;

a) arena impact/balance,
b) performance,
c) timeline.

 Some of the fighters are a clear example with all three factors converging; take the Me262 for instance. It is perked so high because; 1) it is high-tech, late war machine, 2) which boasts absolute advantage in one of the most important aspects of combat, 3) which appeals to many people to thoroughly abuse it every chance they get.

 Those three factors don't operate independantly. In a sense, historical usage and timeline, becomes an important factor as any.

 Other planes don't necessarily fit  all of the three factors, but sometimes even one or two of the factors is enough to draw high usage.

* The Spitfire 5 and 9 posesses the factor a), but does not involve itself with b) and c). However, in an unquantifiable form the overall balance of its attributes as a pure A2A fighter made it a favorable choice for many.

* The N1K2 has a) and c), but does not have b).

* The Chog is also a) and c), but while its performance was not anything overly impressive, its overall balance as a fast, multi-role fighter, actually made it the most used plane of entire AH history upto date. It is a clear example that even if a plane lacks some of the factors( factor b), in the case of the Chog), that it can be overused, and it would be considered as perk material.
 
 Then by the same logic, no reason why the late-war fighters shouldn't be perked. All of the factors are worth consideration, and none of them should be dismissed lightly.

[Replicant]

The Typhoon we have has a 1944 4-blade propellor and 1943 bubble canopy.  Tail strengtheners were incorporated in late 1942/early 1943.  Performance wise it is still a 1942 plane.

The 190s can carry ordnance and gun package and the superior roll rate should deem it perked if the Typhoon is.  You mention speed as being a perk issue, well I'd class roll rate as a perk issue, so perk the 190s!  Typhoon has worst roll rate in the game and poor performance above 16k.

[Kweassa]

There's not a "lack of perk planes" in the main. The whole system was designed to keep these planes rare. Making their perk cost of little value means they will be less rare.

Have you thought that the reason those planes that get the most use earn the least perks is because that is how HT designed it?

The Chog was perked because Pyro couldn't adjust its eny value any more.

 What I am saying is people don't care how meager amount of perks the most use planes earn - they rarely take notice of ENY or OBJ values in the first place. HT and Pyro may have tried adjusting some of the values hoping that it would be used as a means of reducing over-abundancy, except it didn't work. The Chog as yoy mentioned, is exactly that. If ENY or OBJ values mattered in the first place, its usage would have dropped the moment Pyro adjusted them lower. Except it didn't work - no matter how low it was set, people still used it too much. So the only way to apply a limit, was by artificial means - perking it.

 Lowering ENY or OBJ values does nothing to balance the arena. It's wishful thinking that the average pilots would actually care about certain group of numbers slapped onto a plane. (The only numbers that ever effect it, is their price).

Oh that's a lot of nonsense. Most "vets" you see in earlier variants aren't flying them "for the perks". If so I would have burned through mine several times. Most could careless and fly the planes they enjoy. Who cares if the newb doing the "mishun" thing ever earns enough to afford his F4U-4? If he "desires to fly one he will step out of the p51d and jump in a p40 or some other plane. The choice is his.

 Again, you must try to understand. Your way of thinking is the "veteran mindset". If AH was economics, your views on perks would be something like laissez-faire. It doesn't work that way.

 The idealism you hold is this:

............................
 There's a wonderful, powerful new plane on the shelf, but it's expensive. People, see the plane. They want to have a go with it. So, they will try and become good pilots. Better pilots. They will work hard and earn perks if they want, and if they can't do that - oh well, it's their own fault.
............................


 As I said, that's laissez-faire. It doesn't work that way.

 As a skilled veteran you are, you're not thinking how the majority of pilots that have trouble earning perk points would feel. No matter how they work hard, how they try different planes with higher ENY settings, some people just don't earn enough perks fast enough. It could be months before they ever get to try their first Me262, after they join this game. It's not because they're all dweebs that they can't fly such highly perked planes. As a result, instead of being motivated to become better and collect perks, they give up the whole deal.

 Right, it's their own loss? Except its also a loss for the game and the developers - all the effort put into making a plane and what - some 10 people fly it in a 24 hour period?

I really don't know what you are going on about here. Perk values have nothing to do with "veterans". They have to deal with the planes the player chooses. The cost of the perk plane is irrelevant in that each player has the same opportunity to earn as many as he can get. Whether he chooses to or not is up to him.

 Again, what I am implying by the 'veteran' comment, is that the "veteran's views" of the perk system, like one you hold, is a minority opinion.

 The system is not infallable - everybody has the same opportunity, but due to differences in play time, skill, motivation and various many factors some will never get to fly a certain plane they would like to try out. Lowering the prices is to extend the opportunity for people who try - notice that even when reduced to 50%(as in 100 for the 262, or 30 for the Tempest5) is not a small sum as you may think. It's not like I'm offering it for free. People will have to put effort to fly those highly perked planes, except this time, the price range would be more reasonable.

 Think of it this way - those planes are like Porsche. Does an everyday wage-worker have any chance in his lifetime that he'd ever become a Porsche owner? Oh yes, the rich and famous would tell you "the opportunity is equal for all. So try to earn money and you'll be oneday a Porsche driver".

 How about the Porsche dropped prices by 50%? Would that make every other laborer a Porsche driver, making them overabundant? No - it was initially very expensive. Even if the price is cut down to 50% its still very expensive. But at least, it would seem a much more reasonable goal to try for it.


(Continued)

[Kweassa]

(continued)

 

Cheaper perks = more perk planes flying about in the main.

Higher the perk value = less perk planes flying about in the main. That's a good thing and shows the perk system works as designed.

 Oh the design is good. That's why I'm not asking something like an RPS. But the outcome differs on how the perks are set on which standards. The system works, but the commanding standards can be wrong.

 Like for instance the Spit14 - is it any better than a La-7 in typical MA conditions? Or a Bf109G-10? So who decided in the first place that "there should be less and less Spit14s in the MA"? Okay, the developers did. But is that standard acceptable or logical?

 Just ask many RAF enthusiasts how they feel about the Spit14. They view it as unfair. And yes, it is unfair. The intentions for HTC may have been good. We remember how people used to fear and jive how incredibly powerful the Spit14 may be, if it was brought to AH, after seeing the announcements and screenshots of it. The HTC staff are firm people, but surely they'd have seen the response of many people. They probably thought it would be too good a plane, so that's why it's perked so high. I mean, as it is, after some years the Spit14 came into AH, is there any other reason you can think of that it's perked so highly?

 No. My contention is the standards and basis for perking a plane like the Spit14, was wrong in the first place, and for that result many RAF fans are feeling deprived - when other contemporary planes like the La-7, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9 and the P-51D run rampant, free of charge.

 The system's good alright. But the standards should be changed, if it needs to be. And I say it needs to be.

 

It will always be harder for the new guy or the less skilled guy to earn perks. But if he wants or desires to fly a perk plane he can do what every one else did over the past 3 years or so since the perk system was introduced. By landing his kills and not dying. He can increase the rate at which he accumulates perks by flying planes that earn more per sortie.

 Except when he feels that the price is so unnecessarily high, he'd just give up the whole deal and stay "newguy-ish". Is that  their own loss and doesn't concern us?

 Actually, it's everyone's loss. People have been noticing throughout the years how the "learning rate" of newbies have seemingly slowed down. When AH was small, people adapted quickly and learned to become better. Everybody was helpful. Now, the "society" of AH has changed. People remain anonymous. The conditions are in many ways much more harsh to the would-be-learners than it used to be. "Noobs" stay as "noobs" longer than they used to nowadays.

 The end result? Veterans and regulars complain every day every minute how there are same planes around. How the "n00bs" and "dweebs" never learn, and how the game is so wonked that being stupid and suicidal pays off and etc etc.

 The motivation works bothways. Sometimes high challenges motivate people, but sometimes it demoralizes them. And that kind of behavior, ultimately makes the AH less fun. It's a social thing - it's not always the individual at fault.

If every guy flying the top 5 planes in AH can get an F4U-4 or Temp or Spit 14 for 10 perks it would suck.

 Why? Why does that suck?

 Every other guy flying the top 5 planes in AH can get a 109G-10 or a Fw190D-9 for free. Heck, the very reason there's a "top five planes" in the first place, is every other guy got a La-7  or a P-51 or a Typhoon for free!!
 
 Now, if every other guy gets a Tempest or 262 for free, that really would suck. But I'm willing to bet my earlobes that a 30 point, or a 100 point perk, is still plenty high enough to keep those certain planes, out of reach for lazy people.

 Not to mention, that the perks newly suggested to be applied to previously free planes, would effect the "every other guy flying the top 5 plane" part of your logic ineffective. There won't be a "top 5 plane", because all the top five planes(well, three of the five actually...), ARE the perk planes.

Just listen to what folks are saying now about perk planes in the AH2 beta.

 I am. They hate free Tempests and rampant free Ar234s. I never said that they should be cheap in the same level as others.

 I also hear, what the folks are saying about the P-51s and 109s and 190s now. There are zillions of them flying around. The La-7 was setback in flight range, and rendered vastly unpopular in comparision to AH1. There's practically no stopping the Runstangs and Hunstangs and 109 rocket sleds now. Just listen to what Tilt has to say about this - balance cannot be achieved unless the whole section of problematic fighters remain checked.

 You think its bad now? At least the Tempests can catch the P-51s. Now, after AH2 launches and the Tempies and Sp14s are perked again, who's gonna catch the P-51s and G-10s and D-9s then?

I think perk system is fine as is and as the plane set develops I can see more planes being added to the perk list. Other then that don't fix what isn't broke.

 The system's fine. I never said the perk system was broke, nor to fix the system itself.

 I'm saying the operating agenda of the system, is broke, and the agenda must be fixed.

[Kweassa]

The 190s can carry ordnance and gun package and the superior roll rate should deem it perked if the Typhoon is. You mention speed as being a perk issue, well I'd class roll rate as a perk issue, so perk the 190s!  Typhoon has worst roll rate in the game and poor performance above 16k.

 Then why's the Typhoon usage double the both Fw190A-type usage combined, for more than 20 tours straight since it was incorporated into the ranks of the "Big Five"?

 Clearly, the Arena, doesn't agree with you it seems Replicant.

 Or, is this really arbitrary as you're arguing it is?

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Then why's the Typhoon usage double the both Fw190A-type usage combined, for more than 20 tours straight since it was incorporated into the ranks of the "Big Five"?

 Clearly, the Arena, doesn't agree with you it seems Replicant.

 Or, is this really arbitrary as you're arguing it is?

The only person who can change Perk Planes is HTC, not you, so give up while you're ahead.

I don't agree with perk planes fullstop and with the fuel multiplier as it is in AH2 there's going to be less of non-US planes anyway so your perk plane agenda is flawed.

Plus if you perk one plane players will simply move onto the next non-perk plane until that is over used and that then becomes perk.  In time all planes would be perked if it followed that trend.

I'll await what HTC have to say, not you.

[Gixer]

I think the AR234 should be alot less maybe as low as 8 since after the 1.10 changes it's been turned into a hanger queen and pretty much useless as is.

So a lower perk value there might help to see it around more often. Can't recall last time I saw one actually on a bomb run other then low level airfield passes.



...-Gixer

[Batz]

What I am saying is people don't care how meager amount of perks the most use planes earn - they rarely take notice of ENY or OBJ values in the first place.

So? How is this a problem? If they cared about perk planes they know what they need to do to earn the perks to fly them.

So what if they don’t care?

Lowering ENY or OBJ values does nothing to balance the arena.

That’s here nor there. What it does do is keep perk planes rare as it was designed to do. With 60% of the arena flying the top 5 planes the odds of them accumulating enough perks to fly perk planes regularly is slim. That’s a good thing because we don’t need any more timid runners. We need more of those planes folks like to fight in.

Planes like the la7, Spits, Yaks, etc... Not Temp or F4U-4s running about boring every one.

That’s the problem with the p51d now. It dies more then any other plane in those suicide pork and augers “mishuns” the rest of the time it’s running. Put these same types of pilots in cheap perks and the arena doesn’t get better, it gets more timid (oh got to protect my precious perk plane) and more boring.

Folks won’t fly temps and Spit 14s to run down 51s, that’s to risky they will use them to club baby seals.

Again, you must try to understand. Your way of thinking is the "veteran mindset". If AH was economics, your views on perks would be something like laissez-faire. It doesn't work that way.

The idealism you hold is this:

Are telling me what I think?

Perks are of no value unless you care about perk planes. You claim "no one cares about perks" then otoh hand act as if something is missing because most folks don’t use them or care enough to do what’s necessary to get them..

They are fine just like they are. If a player has a real desire to fly one he can do what everyone else has to do. There's no reason to make them more available to the very people you say don’t care about them.

you're not thinking how the majority of pilots that have trouble earning perk points would feel. No matter how they work hard, how they try different planes with higher ENY settings, some people just don't earn enough perks fast enough.

They have trouble earning perks because of the planes they fly and how they fly them. You want to "reward" their “mediocrity” or "herdism" by making perks cheap because somehow you feel that these folks need access to perk planes even though they don’t care about them as you said above.

If they cared they would adapt their behavior so that they earn more perks per sortie so they can get that shiny perk plane.

Do you want a "welfare” perk system?

The system is not infallable - everybody has the same opportunity, but due to differences in play time, skill, motivation and various many factors some will never get to fly a certain plane they would like to try out.

So? They can find a trainer, modify their behavior etc... Who cares if they never get to fly one?

Does an everyday wage-worker have any chance in his lifetime that he'd ever become a Porsche owner? Oh yes, the rich and famous would tell you "the opportunity is equal for all. So try to earn money and you'll be oneday a Porsche driver".

I am not communist so I don’t care anything about "workers rights". If they want it then they can go out and work for it like everyone else. If they aren’t up to it then they need to learn to accept that and try to find some harmony in understanding their place.

The price range for perks is reasonable as they are. They aren’t beyond anyone’s reach. If properly motivated they can do what is necessary so they can afford them or do with out.

 No HTC perk subsidies; no perk plane affirmative action; and no welfare perk system.

Just ask many RAF enthusiasts how they feel about the Spit14. They view it as unfair.

Because some one desires something and then aren’t willing to put in the effort to get it doesn’t mean its "unfair" despite the whining they do. RAF guys can jump in Spit 5 or a hurri and go out and earn those perk to get their spit 14.