Author Topic: Avro Arrow (Read 5294 times)

Angus · « **Reply #75 on:** July 10, 2004, 06:01:34 PM »

Hehe, nice to see the BAC Electric Lightning in here.
On par with the fastest even today, very good climb and quite maneuverable.
Probably better than the Starfighter....

Furball · « **Reply #76 on:** July 10, 2004, 06:18:33 PM »

Pilots view, Lightning vs. F-15

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/lightning/memories.html

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Quite where to start is difficult - two high performance aircraft, but from differing eras. The Lightning concept dates back to a period just after the end of WWII, though it was not until 1947 that an experimental study contract was approved, and another two years before a contract was given for two prototypes and an airframe to be used for static tests. The P1 took to the air on the 4th of August, 1954. With that in mind, it must be appreciated that a gap of some 18 years exists separates the development of the two aircraft, so some of the differences are bound to be significant. The F-15 Eagle was barely on the drawing boards in 1967, though by 1974 it was challenging the MiG-25 "Foxbat" for various climb to height records and also the absolute altitude record for this type of aircraft. A little more of that later on.

The overall impression was that both aircraft had very similar performance and handling characteristics, both were a joy to fly. Considering the age difference, the Lightning's performance was totally outstanding when introduced into service, and when it finally bowed out, it could still out-climb most of its successors. Its initial rate of climb was 50,000 ft per minute. The Mirage IIIE climbed initially at 30,000 ft per minute; the Phantom F-4M managed 32,000 ft per minute; the MiG-21 could only manage 36,090 ft per minute; the F-16A's initial rate was 40,000 ft per minute, and the Tornado F.3's 43,000 ft per minute. So the Lightning reigned supreme. Only later was it surpassed; the F-15 Eagle, and the MiG-25 both have initial climb rates as good or better. The Lightning's time to FL 360 in re-heat was 2.5 minutes, in this respect the Eagle produced a similar figure, though this could vary depending upon its configuration.

WilldCrd · « **Reply #77 on:** July 10, 2004, 07:59:31 PM »

The Ye-155R-1, Ye-155R-3, and Ye-155P-1 prototypes were used for a number of highly successful attempts to break world aircraft performance records in 1965, 1967, and 1973. They were given the cover designation of "Ye-266". The accomplishments of these machines included a 1967 1,000 kilometer close-circuit speed record of 2,920.67 KPH (1,814.87 MPH); and 1973 records for a climb to 30,000 meters (98,400 feet) of 4 minutes 3.86 seconds, plus an absolute altitude record of 36,240 meters (118,900 feet). Fedotov set the altitude record, executing a zoom climb until the engines flamed out, and then coasted up and over to the top of the arc. One suspects that the aircraft was flying with all the aerodynamic grace of a brick at that point. Once the machine fell back to lower altitude, he regained control and relit the engines.
source

SR71 records
May 01, 1965

Absolute Altitude: 80,257.86 ft (24,390 meters)... YF-12A # 60-6934

Absolute Speed Over a Straight Course: 2,070.101 mph...YF-12A #60-6936

Absolute Speed Over a 500km Closed Course: 1,688.889 mph...YF-12A #60-6936

Absolute Speed Over a 1,000km Closed Course: 1,643.041 mph... YF-12A #60-6936

July 27-28 1976

Altitude in Horizontal Flight: 85,068.997 ft (25,929.031 meters) SR-71A. World Absolute and World Class Altitude Record for Horizontal Flight - 85,068 feet, surpassing the previous record of 80,257 feet set by a Lockheed YF12A in June of 1965. SR-71 flown by Capt Robert C. Helt, Pilot and Major Larry A. Elliott, RSO.

note: this is a sustained altitude
source

WilldCrd · « **Reply #78 on:** July 10, 2004, 08:03:44 PM »

One suspects that the aircraft was flying with all the aerodynamic grace of a brick at that point. Once the machine fell back to lower altitude, he regained control and relit the engines.

that took some cojhones

Chairboy · « **Reply #79 on:** July 10, 2004, 08:42:51 PM »

This is turbine only, of course. The X-15 crew might have some comments on altitude and speed records of their own.

WilldCrd · « **Reply #80 on:** July 10, 2004, 09:03:28 PM »

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Originally posted by Chairboy
This is turbine only, of course. The X-15 crew might have some comments on altitude and speed records of their own.

the X-15 holds the record for carrier launched
the others took off with their own power
IE. ground to altitude records.
Their a bunch of different classes

WilldCrd · « **Reply #81 on:** July 10, 2004, 10:04:04 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
WilldCrd, the SR-71 holds the record for absolute altitude in level flight, not absolute altitude (Mig-25).

yeah I know. Thats what I was saying.

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Altitude in Horizontal Flight: 85,068.997 ft (25,929.031 meters) SR-71A. World Absolute and World Class Altitude Record for Horizontal Flight - 85,068 feet, surpassing the previous record of 80,257 feet set by a Lockheed YF12A in June of 1965. SR-71 flown by Capt Robert C. Helt, Pilot and Major Larry A. Elliott, RSO.

WilldCrd · « **Reply #82 on:** July 11, 2004, 02:12:26 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Sorry, my mistake.

no problemo

Staga · « **Reply #83 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:15:43 AM »

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Why, the dumb bastards don't have transistors; they're still using vacuum tubes!

There's quite good reason why in some cases vacuum tubes are more reliable than transistors.

Staga · « **Reply #84 on:** July 11, 2004, 06:11:31 AM »

Yep, that's pretty common knowledge

I'm not sure if MiG-25 ever carried AA-missiles with nuclear warhead but some of its older American counterparts did that.
Electro Magnetic Pulse is bad news to transistors and, at least then, tubes could stand it better.

Furball · « **Reply #85 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:14:43 PM »

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Originally posted by WilldCrd
the X-15 holds the record for carrier launched
the others took off with their own power
IE. ground to altitude records.
Their a bunch of different classes

Ahem..

Chairboy · « **Reply #86 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:26:14 PM »

The X-15 flew quite a bit higher then the SpaceShipOne.

354,300 feet top altitude of X-15
328,491 feet altitude of the SpaceShipOne

On future flights, the SpaceShipOne will probably exceed the X-15 record, but not yet.

EDIT: Added numbers.

Furball · « **Reply #87 on:** July 11, 2004, 04:33:15 PM »

really? didnt know that! cool, i retract my above *ahem*

Chairboy · « **Reply #88 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:24:48 PM »

Followup regarding the F-15 numbers from FAS.ORG.

I wrote the following to them:

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Hi there,

On the page: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm

The top speed of the F-15 is listed as 2.5 mach at sea level. According
to http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f15e.htm and other
sources, that speed is at altitude (45,000 feet on one website) and the
sea level speed is approximately half that.

Best regards,

(redacted)

This was their response:

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We believe our error was in semantics not technical details. Let me
explain.

As you may know the speed of sound (or Mach 1) varies at different
altitudes. What we meant when we said the f-15 goes 2.5 Mach at sea
level was not that the physical plane was at sea level, but rather that
the Mach (or speed of sound) we were referring to was at sea level. If
you have more questions please don't hesitate to ask. Also we will
clarify our page.
Thanks,
John

(redacted)
Federation of American Scientists
Strategic Security Project Intern

My faith is FAS is restored, their answer makes sense.

Boroda · « **Reply #89 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:49:04 PM »

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Originally posted by J_A_B
And what was the US doing? Deploying a nuclear rocket to kill Soviet bombers with.....over Canada, of course.

Soviet long-range SAMs were equipped with 10 and 20 kiloton warheads. We had special designation for missiles that were supposed to carry nuclear load, "N", meaning improved reliability. The main difference was that this missiles had theromostats for warheads.

This stuff could be usefull back in 60s-70s. Our S-200 SAM were supposed to be used against formations of B-52s. In this case a 20 kiloton missile with range of ~250km and capable of reaching 40,000m was a reasonable thing.