Author Topic: No (more) guns please - we're British  (Read 6683 times)

Offline beet1e

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one other thing...
« Reply #240 on: October 23, 2004, 05:46:47 AM »
Widewing said:
Quote
If the facts support your case, argue the facts.
If the evidence supports your case, argue the evidence.
If neither the facts or the evidence support your case, just yell.

Beet1e can't yell in less than 1,000 words.
I just checked, and my longest post in this thread was 620 words, not including newspaper quotes, as they are not "my yelling".

What was that you were saying about the "facts"?  :lol:lol:aok

Offline SC-Sp00k

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No (more) guns please - we're British
« Reply #241 on: October 23, 2004, 05:51:29 AM »
Their not interested in the facts beetle.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #242 on: October 23, 2004, 06:33:04 AM »
I know.

Mr. Toad just repeats the gun ban rhetoric ad nauseum, Jackal accuses me of "sidestepping" when I ask him to clarify something he said earlier, and Widewing accuses me of yelling, and not being able to yell in less than 1000 words. So either I wasn't yelling, or Widewing can't count, or maybe he is just.... wrong?

:lol Great thread! 5 pages... :aok

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #243 on: October 23, 2004, 08:28:30 AM »
Beet1e--

I think you'll find this amusing.  Here's a tidbit from an american newspaper editorial that seems relevant to the subject at hand:

"The arming of oneself in a peaceful community, as every well organized community is supposed to be, and walking about like a moving arsenal, is highly ridiculous and, as events demonstrate, exceedingly dangerous."


I think you'll find it funny because.....

The newspaper is the Tombstone Nugget .    The date is 24 Oct, 1882.  That is two days before the famous shootout at the O.K. Corral.  

The whole gun debate thing is really nothing new.  

At one time, cities with bad crime rates used to ban firearms within city limits.  I would venture to suggest that some cities could probably benefit from such a measure once again.  


J_A_B

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #244 on: October 23, 2004, 08:43:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
:lol

I asked the one question the gun nuts cannot answer, which was : If our gun control isn't working, how come our gun crime is next to nothing?  And the best answers they could come up with were these:
  • Jackal - saying that we're going to catch up to the US in terms of gun crime eventually.
Kind of pathetic, actually. OK, let's stick with Jackal...

Sidestepping? I asked you to explain your point of view. How do you get "sidestepping" out of that? You say our gun control laws are not working, and you're wrong. They ARE working, which is why we our gun crime is next to nothing.
How are we to catch up to the US when a)there is a 5 year mandatory jail sentence for possession of a gun b)there are no retail gun outlets in the UK?


Beet1e.     :aok [/B]


  Your question had allready been answered and was answered again. The point was you just refuse to acknowledge that you have a problem.
  I never said "your" gun control laws were not working. What I did state, numerous times, was that no amount of ban/laws were going to stop the increase in crime and along with this will be an increase in guns numbers. Let`s get this clear again NO amount of bans/laws passed is going to deter this. You are just touching the tip of the iceberg. You do understand that statement don`t you?
  You started the thread so there evidently is some concern. Your country has laws in place , but it is still happening, granted on a small scale as of yet. You can bet your sweet bippy that won`t last and you know it. You have allready implied as much by your post and your concern. You stated your concerns more than once using the "gangsta" type catagorizing. That might also be a mistake. You certainly can`t pidgeon hole people in the "threat" or "non threat " area by their appearance or dressing style. Gotti, Capone, and even Barrow were known to be pretty spiffy dressers on most occasions.
  Imagine this if you will...... Once a year a community in Longview Texas is invaded with 300 to 500 "biker types"(inserted so you would have a hole to place them in). Harleys, chrome, beards, tattoos, the whole smear. Leaving from a small cinder block biker bar they set out on a mission into the community. Loud pipes, rumbling, mounted machines getting half second concerned glances by the public at large. Are they on their way to do bodily harm to the community or possibly rape, pillage and take over the town like visions of some grade B 60s movie. Naw bro, were just on our way to the local orphan childrens home to deliver the toys from the annual Christmas toy run. Get the picture here. You are looking to label and pidgeon hole everything and explain it away or wish it away. Once again your head is in the sand and you are lost.
  Beet, I know for a fact by reading numerous posts by you that you are an intelligent guy. I find it hard to believe that you actualy believe some of the rubbish you are stating here.
  One might be led to believe that you are "TROLLING". Perish the thought. lol
« Last Edit: October 23, 2004, 08:45:53 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Toad

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No (more) guns please - we're British
« Reply #245 on: October 23, 2004, 09:37:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
:lol

 If our gun control isn't working, how come our gun crime is next to nothing?


How come you gun crime was next to nothing BEFORE the ban/confiscastion?

You choose to ignore this glaringly obvious point.

Your "gun control" has essentially nothing to do with your level of gun crime.

It goes back to BFC and Moore's inability to explain why the Canadians have a low rate and lots of guns.

Hint: It's NOT the "gun control laws".

Your laws merely stole the guns from folks that did not contribute to your "gun crime" problem.

In short, you adopted "the old army way" PUNISH EVERYONE... it doesn't matter who is actually guilty. Private Jones shoes not shined? The entire company is put on report.

WTG.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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No (more) guns please - we're British
« Reply #246 on: October 23, 2004, 09:56:10 AM »
facts?   what facts?   spook, you show us a picture of, I presume (i didn't go there) a child killed by a handgun?   that is the facts?   The truth is that you have not shown one fact to support your theories and fears and neurosis... You know you can't so you sink to sensationalism.... liberals here try that but most of us have become imune to the silliness of such an "arguement"

we are suppossed to give up our guns and all the advantages they bring and the enjoyment because.... someone got killed?  

maverick again is the voice of reason balancing your hysterical hand wringing.  I have seen lots of sensless death.   Cars and hiking and boating and swimming and taking baths and riding bikes all cause more deaths in the U.S. than accidental death of toddlers by handguns... more toddlers are killed by drowning in 5 gallon buckets.

Oh... and I am not a rangemaster nor do I teach classes.   A range facility is under my control.   I simply facilitate it's use by about 6 different police forces so that it does not interfere with my plant operations.    My experiance is simply as a lifelong hobbiest and I am fortunate to have access to a lot of trainers for police including swat teams.   I am very friendly with all of them and we spend time on the subjects I discuss here.... Allmoat all are nike maverick... I have never seen one like spook.

Your arguement is as weak as they get... one incident or picture and destroy an entire countries freedoms and rights?

I can't show you an negative... I can't show you pictures of all the people wjho aren't bloody rags because they had a gun when they needed it... I can't show you the bodies of the kids who weren't killed in school shootings because a citizen with a gun stopped it before it went any further.  

so how bout a fact?  how bout the FBI fact that bvetween 1.5 and 3 million crimes a year are stopped by firearms... mostly in the hands of citizens... if only a fraction of those were people who would have died...  

The website for those saved would take days to load on the fastest computer.

beetle... everyone answered your question....you had very little gun crime before the ban and you have about the same or a little more now... your crime fluctuates but it could be said that it is trending upwards.   You certainly didn't make things any better and you might have made em worse.... it appears that the less isolated you are the more you will feel the global effects of drug and terror crimes.

Everyone here who is happy with there gun bans lives on an island of mostly white people...   and socialism and tradition of being subjects.    You know nothing of what it is to be an American...  I am glad of that.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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No (more) guns please - we're British
« Reply #247 on: October 23, 2004, 10:33:52 AM »
Hiya Jackal!  Seems funny to be arguing with you, as you are one of my BBS pizza map allies!

Hmmm.... you start by saying
Quote
The point was you just refuse to acknowledge that you have a problem.
and about 5 lines later you said
Quote
You started the thread so there evidently is some concern.
So which is it?


I said our gun crime was "next to nothing". I was merely repeating what Mr. Toad said. That way, he can't disagree with me. But "next to nothing" is a relative value. According to Nashwan's stats, there were 68 victims of gun homicide last year, which is indeed next to nothing when compared with the US total of around 10,000, which comes as a result of guns-4-all.

This thread didn't start out as a thread about America, but about Britain, and Nottingham where my niece is at uni. Yes, it sure was a concern to know that she was walking the streets not far from some drive by killers.

Sure, we have laws in place and yet we still have gun homicides. But as the American model shows, our gun crime is MUCH less than it would be, were we ourselves to copy America, and adopt Guns-4-All. Just because our gun laws don't work 100% doesn't mean they're no good or should be repealed. Same goes for your immigration laws and drug laws...  I've estimated that we would have 3000 gun homicides annually if we had Guns-4-All. Right now we have about 68, which is about 2¼% of my G4A projection. Therefore, our gun laws are about 97¾% effective - not perfect, but the best we can hope for.

Mr. Toad, glad you appear to be in good health and excellent spirits!
Quote
How come you gun crime was next to nothing BEFORE the ban/confiscastion?

You choose to ignore this glaringly obvious point.
...because we never had retail outlets selling handguns or other guns tailor made for criminals, and we never had an ingrained gun culture. I'm really surprised you don't get that. Lazs doesn't either, but that's because he doesn't listen to anyone who actually lives in England. I expected better from you, however. You keep saying things like "In short, you adopted "the old army way" PUNISH EVERYONE... it doesn't matter who is actually guilty." Who is "EVERYONE"? Who are the people who were punished, and had guns forcibly removed from them? Have any of them posted here? I am nearly 50, and I have NEVER met ANYONE in Britain who owned a handgun. So who are these apochryphal people of whom you speak?

To be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what that gun ban did. Something about making it more difficult to buy some guns? There are no gun shops anyway, so what's the difference?

Lazs - I have told you many times: No-one is asking you to give up your guns. It's too late for that. Your 2nd amendment armed all your criminals. And now your police have their hands full trying to stay in control, and 70 of them each year will die trying.

You made your bed, now you must lie in it - and keep a loaded gun beside it. :lol

Where's Widewing? If anyone sees him, tell him this one is less than 600 words - he doesn't have that many fingers. ;)

Offline Airhead

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No (more) guns please - we're British
« Reply #248 on: October 23, 2004, 10:35:55 AM »
Beatle, the only question germaine to gun control in America today is, would we be better off as citizens if we were no longer allowed to posess handguns?

The answer, of course, is a resounding "no." Even if I choose not to own a handgun, the fact my neighbors might (or might not) own handguns makes that burgular think twice before breaking into my home.

That's balanced by the availabity of stolen guns being made available to street criminals, but I can honestly say out of the many people I know personally who own firearms, not one of them has ever had a gun stolen.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #249 on: October 23, 2004, 10:41:53 AM »
beetle... you act like having a loaded gun by the bed (or anywhere) is some huge hardship that is difficult to bear...

Truth is... putting on silly lap three point saftey belts that are required byu law to drive is ten times more uncomfortable and toublesome... wearing a helmet on a motorcycle all but destroys the experiance.... flotation devices in boast are a pain.   Steel toed boot and safety glasses are a pain (these last you wouldn't know about but... trust me)

Still ... it is you who have avoided the question.... what problems have the millions of concealed carry holders caused?   How would the criminals in this country be less.... criminal... if they weren't armed and .... what is better, criminals afraid to enter a home with people in it or.... hiding under the bed like your people do?

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #250 on: October 23, 2004, 10:41:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Beatle, the only question germaine to gun control in America today is, would we be better off as citizens if we were no longer allowed to posess handguns?
Off topic. I began this thread in reponse to crime problems here in Britain, and to observe the fact that the more guns we have, the more crime we will have. No-one can refute that, because ownership of a gun is itself a crime.

Nowhere in my original post did I mention America.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #251 on: October 23, 2004, 10:43:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B


At one time, cities with bad crime rates used to ban firearms within city limits.  I would venture to suggest that some cities could probably benefit from such a measure once again.  


J_A_B


Private gun ownership has been banned within the city limits of Washington DC for many decades.... Yet Washington is at or near the top of major US cities in shootings....

It's not guns, it's the violent culture. Banning ownership effects the law abiding, not the criminal, most of whom obtain their weapons illegally anyway.

There are about one million select-fire Assault Rifles in the hands of Swiss citizens, issued by their government. Yet, crimes with these weapons are virtually non-existant. Why is that? They don't have a large, violent sub-culture. Guns are not the problem. People are the problem. Unless America can eradicate this violent sub-culture, violence will continue practically unabated, largely confined to the poor sections of inner cities. However, since the vast majority of this violence is not experienced outside of these inner cities, few Americans are willing to make the effort to change the conditions that bred the violent culture in the first place. It's much easier to blame the weapon rather than one who wields it and easier to blame the wielder rather than the root cause. The left blames guns. The right blames the criminals. Neither is willing to seriously accept that this nation's great affluence has not filtered down to the least advantaged of society. Now we have a deeped ingrained culture of violence that will not go away without a lot of time, treasure and effort. We know that Welfare is not the answer to poverty. Education, good jobs and hope for the future are the answers. The looming question still remains: Are the American people willing to make the effort? So far, the answer is, "only if it is easy to do." And, that means it won't get done anytime soon.

Then we have mainstream religion in America, which has failed miserably at its commission of helping the poor. Yes, we will always have poor people and families. But, do we need 20 million dollar edifices to man's conceit, which we call churches, temples and mosques? Do they need $20,000 pianos? Do ministers need a Lexus to serve their congregations? Meanwhile, they insist that every family hand over 10% of their after tax income to sustain their glorious churches. Meanwhile some church members send their kids to school on empty stomachs or can't afford to pay the power company bills or provide even basic medical care because they can't afford insurance premiums and afford to maintain even a basic level of sustanance for their families at the same time. It seems that America's generosity extends to everyone but their own. Oh brother, don't let me get started on organized religion and its utter failure to serve God's people, world wide.

Ronald Reagan was right when he said that "America is a bright shining light on a hill". But that light grows dimmer as we continue to ignore our poor, our sick and those without a shred of hope for a better life. When this nation finally gets moving, it can do anything it resolves to do. We lack that resolve when it comes to changing the worst in our culture. When we do change the culture, gun violence will be a thing of the past. But as long as senseless violence is seen as a badge of honor and a thing to be admired, it's not going to change. Banning any type of gun is a futile gesture. How many prisons do we need to build? If all we do is treat the symptoms, we'll never cure the disease. Both the left and the right in this country are currently in the business of distributing bandaids. And they even argue about which bandaid works better... Yet the disease goes untreated.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #252 on: October 23, 2004, 10:49:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Still ... it is you who have avoided the question.... what problems have the millions of concealed carry holders caused?
In order to arm millions of law abiding CC holders, it follows that you are going to need huge chains of retail outlets selling guns, or mail order companies - whatever. Your big mistake was to think that only the law abiding would have guns. In creating thousands of outlets where guns can be purchased or otherwise procured, you created the biggest society of armed criminals on the planet.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #253 on: October 23, 2004, 10:52:20 AM »
Well said Widewing. Changing our violent culture is far easier said than done however. Respect for others is the needed catalyst for this change and I hold can only be instilled in someone at an early age by parents.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #254 on: October 23, 2004, 10:55:52 AM »
widewing is mostly correct and addresses the subject that michelle moore was afraid to... a culture of violence amung the less privilidged and a culture of extreme greed from others.

That pretty much explains why there is no problem with the concealled carry guys.... they are the average citizen and don't fit in either class... those who would go armed generally are more moral than those who are hopless or sociopaths.... in short... average citizens.

Those who murder out of poverty and a culture of violence will become even more bold with less guns.... this is a fact show by data... those who are well off but sociopaths will murder no matter what they have to do.

moore attacked the wrong groups and it made his "documentary" look irrellevant... he did so because he is too far left to allow facts to spoil a good propoganda film... can't show blacks as bieng disproportionately murderous no wcan we?   wouldn't be PC even if the data shows that thier population commits over half the murders with firearms and that is is far more likely that a black will murder a white than vice versa.

I don't think we will ever be able to have a sensible discussion about something as fundamental as firearms and rights.   emotion and ignorance and..... even stuborness from us pro gun rights people will allways taint the arguements.

Fundamentaly you either believe that it is your right to protect yourself and family with the same or better means than those who would do you harm or you don't.... just that simple.  

lazs