Author Topic: Scissors?! Whats that....  (Read 5072 times)

Offline Badboy

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2001, 08:28:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dwarf:


If the fight is as slow as you think, why are the turn radii so large?

From the turn radii explicit in the diagram, the speed of this engagement has to be above CV. From the outcome, it has to have concluded before Blue's speed dropped below CV and his turn rate started decreasing.


Those Radii aren't large. The aircraft in the diagram were both close to their maximum sustained turn rates, speeds don't get much farther below corner than that in a prop.
 

Badboy

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Badboy ]
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Offline Badboy

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2001, 08:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Drano:



   :)  The Badboy has taught more people than I can count about ACM. Glad to say I'm one of his diciples. <S>

              Drano

Wife wants to know why I'm blushing  :)

Badboy
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Offline Dwarf

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2001, 08:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Drano:



       :)  The Badboy has taught more people than I can count about ACM. Glad to say I'm one of his diciples. <S>

              Drano

As I've said before, Badboy has a lot of talent when it comes to explaining much of ACM.  What he has to say about the scissors is good and informative.  The diagram he created to illustrate his words isn't.

Maybe I'm being overly pedantic, but I remember how much a clear and accurate illustration would have helped me when I was learning this stuff.

As to Shaw:
(page 83 - 2nd full paragraph)
  "During the nose-to-nose phase each pilot attempts to get the nose of his aircraft pointed at the opponent first to create flight-path separation inside the other's turn which cannot be taken away.  In general, the slower or tighter-turning fighter will win this phase, as illustrated in Figure 2-13." (page 79 for those following along) "The flat scissors tends to draw fighters closer and closer together, so speed usually remains the determining factor in the nose-to-nose phase as long as the scissors maneuver continues. To gain advantage during this phase, a fighter should decelerate as quickly as possible. " (Seems Badboy and Shaw have a slight difference of opinion about whether one should chop power.  It also seems that the scissors is a viable tactic at speeds above CV, not only when low and slow.)

  "After one fighter has generated some separation, it must reverse and lead turn its opponent in order to gain further advantage. Reversal technique and timing are critical to success in the scissors.  First, the rolling reversal should be as rapid as possible.  This usually involves unloading the aircraft and applying full roll controls as described in the Appendix.  Each fraction of a second during the reversal the aircraft is traveling essentially in a straight line, wasting valuable turning time and decreasing hard-won separation.  A significant roll performance advantage can negate a substantial speed differential."

(Unload early, roll hard, and ZIG)

  "The timing of the reversal determines the TCA" (Target Crossing Angle), "at the overshoot, with an early reversal resulting in lower TCA and subsequently greater angular advantage (lower AOT) later in the maneuver." (Angle Off Tail)  "The reversal point also controls the nose-tail separation at the overshoot, however.   The longer the reversal is delayed, the greater the separation will be when the overshoot occurs."

So, the scissoring plane does NOT stay loaded up at all times.  He times the reversal so that it is most to his advantage, and then reverses as hard and quickly as possible in order not to lose the separation he's already won and to gain maximum position advantage for the next pass.

Not only does that not sound like what Badboy has illustrated, diagram 2-16 on page 82 doesn't look anything like Badboy's illustration either.

Dwarf

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

Offline Camel

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2001, 09:23:00 PM »
Great discusion! I appreciate all input.

Got asked this question at work the otherday by a buddy that flys AH now. I couldnt begin to explain this effectivly, I just started twisting my hands around till they hurt saying things like, "you want to do this, to get the other guy doing this, so you have time for that!" Needles to say we both walked away confused.

I think tomorrow I will point him here    ;)

Thanks
camel

<edit>I do think its very important to understand Dwarfs input as for when to use it.

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Camel ]

Offline Badboy

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2001, 09:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Camel:

I do think its very important to understand Dwarfs input as for when to use it.

At your own risk, trust me, he's more confused than you were.

Badboy

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Badboy ]
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Offline Andy Bush

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2001, 09:36:00 PM »
Dwarf

Shaw's comment regarding throttle technique is intended to address situations above CV.

Below CV, for a given configuration and when flying at max g available, turn radius remains essentially the same while turn rate decreases as speed decays. At this point, power reductions are counter-productive. In fact, when loaded up, power on is necessary to retain as much of a rate capability as possible.

In any case, the original question has been answered. In AH, the real issue is one of effective view management and lift vector control. All the book knowledge in the world is not going to help if the AH pilot cannot manage his views.

Andy

Offline Dwarf

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2001, 09:46:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy:



Those Radii aren't large. The aircraft in the diagram were both close to their maximum sustained turn rates, speeds don't get much farther below corner than that in a prop.
 

Badboy

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Badboy ]

Didn't mean to imply that they are overly large, merely that those radii are consistent with prop aircraft operating above CV.  IIRC, the Spit's best turn radius at CV is 650 feet.  Most other prop planes aren't too far above that at CV.  Blue is turning a 680' circle, and Red an 830' circle.  Both are obviously turning as hard as they can.

Dwarf
[OOPS it's 680 Blue and 850 Red - still consistent with max turn rate at speeds above CV]

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

Offline Dwarf

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2001, 09:52:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Dwarf

Shaw's comment regarding throttle technique is intended to address situations above CV.

As I stated, based on the radii shown, there's no reason to believe the illustrated fight isn't happening above CV.

However, please make up your mind.  First you say: "You also throw in the term "corner"...CV has no place in a scissors discussion."  But, now you're saying that here, Shaw is only talking about those scissors fights where the speed is above CV.  

So which is it?  Is a scissors only to be used when below corner speed?  Or, is it OK to use it at any speed and altitude, giving CV a legitimate place in the discussion after all?

   
Quote

Below CV, for a given configuration and when flying at max g available, turn radius remains essentially the same while turn rate decreases as speed decays. At this point, power reductions are counter-productive. In fact, when loaded up, power on is necessary to retain as much of a rate capability as possible.

Agree totally.  IF the fight is happening below CV, you need all the power you've got.
   
Quote

In any case, the original question has been answered. In AH, the real issue is one of effective view management and lift vector control. All the book knowledge in the world is not going to help if the AH pilot cannot manage his views.

Andy

Also only too true.

Dwarf

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

Offline Badboy

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2001, 10:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dwarf:


"To gain advantage during this phase, a fighter should decelerate as quickly as possible."

(Seems Badboy and Shaw have a slight difference of opinion about whether one should chop power)


No difference of opinion because Shaw doesn’t recommend chopping power. Even for a high speed overshoot, he recommends reducing speed, and forward velocity by manoeuvring. I believe that you should decelerate as quickly as possible in that situation by generating maximum negative Ps, and if necessary pulling nose high into what might then develop into a rolling scissors, or if you need an even more dramatic speed loss, into a vertical scissors. Cutting throttle in a flat scissors is the kiss of death.

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Offline Dwarf

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2001, 10:29:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy:


No difference of opinion because Shaw doesn’t recommend chopping power. Even for a high speed overshoot, he recommends reducing speed, and forward velocity by manoeuvring. I believe that you should decelerate as quickly as possible in that situation by generating maximum negative Ps, and if necessary pulling nose high into what might then develop into a rolling scissors, or if you need an even more dramatic speed loss, into a vertical scissors. Cutting throttle in a flat scissors is the kiss of death.

Badboy

In general, I agree.  Use maneuver to control speed whenever possible.

In this instance, Shaw explicitly says, "... a fighter should decelerate as quickly as possible."  Whether he really meant, "even if that means cutting power", is something that is left up to each of us to interpret.  My guess, because this is a discussion strictly about the flat scissors, is that he thinks it's OK if you're above CV since you're trying to keep your turn as tight as possible while remaining in-plane.

He certainly doesn't rule it out.

Dwarf

FWIW, I also agree that cutting throttle in a flat scissors is probably the kiss of death.  I don't mean to encourage anyone to do so.  BUT, part of winning ACM is learning when to throw the book out the window.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

Offline Badboy

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2001, 10:43:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dwarf:


So, the scissoring plane does NOT stay loaded up at all times.  He times the reversal so that it is most to his advantage, and then reverses as hard and quickly as possible in order not to lose the separation he's already won and to gain maximum position advantage for the next pass.


Yes it does... Unless you are flying a real aircraft, which we aren’t. The reason Shaw suggests unloading is that in the real world the roll rate is significantly reduced under load. You unload only long enough to execute the roll at maximum rate obtaining a time advantage (in accordance with Boyd loop theory). However, that particular piece of aerodynamics seems to be missing from many flight sim’s, in which case loaded rolls are correct. The only time I would recommend unloading to roll in Aces High is when the speed is so low that you fear a departure. Of course that might well be during a scissors, but not for the reasons you claim.

 
Quote
diagram 2-16 on page 82 doesn't look anything like Badboy's illustration either.

Yes it does, allowing for the fact that his appear to have been drawn free hand  :)


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Offline Dwarf

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2001, 11:04:00 PM »
I'm going to cut down on the formality rigamarole and just call you Badz, same as everyone else seems to.

You're trying to have it both ways.  AH is supposed to be a simulation of real air combat.  Yet, you seem to be implying that this is a case where we need to "game the game" because it isn't a very faithful simulation.  So, just forget about what constitutes a real scissors and fly it your way, because whether the airframe is loaded up or not doesn't really matter... unless you're REALLY slow.  Then it does matter, and you should fly it by-the-book.

You may well be right.  Lord knows all sims have their flaws.  I hope you're not.

So, which is it?  Should we fly the flat scissors just like real life, or should we "game the game"?  Or do some of both?

As for the illustration... I think, even freehand, the artist that illustrated the book would have done a better job of drawing the nearly equal arcs you feature.

Timing, technique and skill play no part in your diagram.  It's all "pull and roll for all you're worth, and shoot when you see the whites of his eyes."  The outcome is merely the inevitable result of the capabilites of the two aircraft.  That simply is not a scissors.

Dwarf

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

Offline Dwarf

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2001, 01:47:00 AM »
Ya know, Badz, it'd be really easy to end this on a positive note.

I bet, with a little thought, you could come up with a diagram that more accurately reflects what a real scissors looks like.

Why don't you give it a try?

Dwarf

Offline Seeker

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2001, 04:34:00 AM »


[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Seeker ]

Offline Andy Bush

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Scissors?! Whats that....
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2001, 06:05:00 AM »
Dwarf

Badboy has already provided an example.

Now it's your turn. Show us a better one.

Just for the heck of it, would you mind filling out your profile a little more. When I get into these kinds of discussions, I like to know who I'm talking to.

That way...when folks come here to get some reliable info...they can make up their own minds on where to place their bets.

Andy