Scissors?! Whats that....

[Andy Bush]

BigUC

Let's try to get this turned back around to your question and answers that might help you out!

First...your rudder pedals. Keep them, and use them. You should expect to gain a slight increase in roll rate when coordinating aileron input with a corresponding application of rudder. Since roll rate is so important in scissoring, rudder can help a little...not a great deal for WW2 airplanes...but a little, and that slight edge may make a difference sometime!

It's hard to make generalizations in BFM...there are simply too many ways to complicate an issue! But here's one anyway! In traditional "flat scissoring", the maneuver often begins from a flight path overshoot by the attacker. The defender uses a hard defensive turn against a bandit behind his wingline. The attacker fails to match this turn and overshoots to the outside. The defender then decides to try for a role reversal...he wants to make the attacker the defender, so he reverses his turn direction and now pulls hard towards the bandit. The bandit has done the same and is pulling hard back into the defender. This sets up the "scissors".

Please note that this situation is often not the place to be for either pilot. Depending on their actual relative energy states and types of aircraft, better options include everything from the attacker never overshooting in-plane to begin with to the defender electing to dump and run...and a number of other things in between!

No matter! You want to learn how to scissors...presumably in-plane. You will need to gain proficiency in two things... energy recognition and view management.

First energy recognition...your own and the bandit's. Since a scissors is a turning contest, you should know your airplane's best turn speeds...these vary with altitude and weight, but typically lie within the 200-250 mph area for most WW2 fighters.

If you want to maximize your turn performance (max rate and min radius), keep your speed withing this approximate range.

If you begin the reversal well above this range, initially chop the throttle to idle while rolling. Once you begin pulling back hard, push your throttle back to full as your speed bleeds toward 250mph and leave it there while you are pulling G. During the actual reversals, you might consider pulling the throttle back if you unload to roll (to keep from inadvertantly accelerating ahead), but once your bank is set, go full throttle again as you apply back pressure.

Next, the hardest part of all in energy management. How's the other guy doing?! It's a tough nut to crack, but here are two clues. One is the rate at which the bandit moves across your monitor screen, and the other is the rate at which you see his fuselage angle changing.

If the bandit remains more or less in one place as he turns (from your point of view), then consider him at or below his optimum energy level. If he seems to move relatively quickly across your view, then the opposite is likely to be the case...his energy level is good, and he is not depleting it rapidly.

Watch the bandit's fuselage alignment relative to you. If the bandit seems to be pivoting in space with lots of fuselage angle change but not too much actual forward movement, then you may assume he is giving up gobs of energy in a hard turn.

Next, view management. We associate this with lift vector control since the lift vector determines our turn direction. The lift vector can be visualized as projecting out the top of our canopy. To turn the plane, roll to point the top of the canopy in the direction that you want to go and then pull. Big point here...roll to orient the lift vector, pull to turn! (Don't forget to use the rudder to help the roll out!)

In a scissors, this usually means you are looking along the lift vector...out the top of the canopy...so practice flying using the forward/up views with the occasional glance forward to check horizon orientation and flight conditions (speed and altitude). The 'stall buzzer' can also be a big help in G control as you look out the top view.

At this point, you are established in the scissors. What happens next is a function of the bandit's and your slow speed BFM proficiency...and is well beyond the scope of this thread.

Get back with your buddies and do a little 1v1 flying...I'm sure they'll be happy to help out!

Andy

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]

[Seeker]

You can, of course, also practise offline.

The drones circulate at around 220 MPH. you should be able to follow one, snaking back and forth and shooting them. If you can keep your speed around the 250-300 mark, and stay behind them, you're a long way towards getting the idea.

[Jekyll]

BigUC, Andy and Badboy have explained it all pretty well.  The only thing I would add, and emphasize, is the potential importance of rollrate in the flat scissors.

Just because your opponent holds a turn rate/radius advantage doesn't mean that you cannot win a flat scissors if he screws up enough  

The 190's, F4U etc are pretty good at the scissors, simply because they can reverse their direction through roll so quickly.

Every second you are flying straight will hurt you in the scissors, so aircraft which can snap around in roll can reverse their direction and help force their opponent out of phase, and out in front.

As to when to 'hit' each reversal, the best advice is to fly the maneuver predominately out of your rear view.  If he's behind you, and you are turning right, watch for when his wings begin to match your own angle.  THEN reverse your turn.  Keep watching him, and as his wings roll, again matching your angle, hit the reversal again, as quickly as you can.  

It might even be a good idea, when you get confident with the scissors, to go easy on the first couple of reversals to sucker him into committing to the flat scissors with you.  A lot of pilots will see an initial hard and fast break, enter a gentle climb, and wait for you to swish back and forth beneath them, blowing all your energy whilst they conserve theirs.

With lots of practice (and deaths) you'll start to learn just when to reverse your turn.  It's a combination of airspeed, closing speed, angle and the performance characteristics of both aircraft which have to be instantly evaluated.

Sometimes you'll win .. sometimes you'll lose.  No guarantees  

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Andy Bush:
In traditional "flat scissoring", the maneuver often begins from a flight path overshoot by the attacker. The defender uses a hard defensive turn against a bandit behind his wingline. The attacker fails to match this turn and overshoots to the outside. The defender then decides to try for a role reversal...he wants to make the attacker the defender, so he reverses his turn direction and now pulls hard towards the bandit. The bandit has done the same and is pulling hard back into the defender. This sets up the "scissors".

Please note that this situation is often not the place to be for either pilot. Depending on their actual relative energy states and types of aircraft, better options include everything from the attacker never overshooting in-plane to begin with to the defender electing to dump and run...and a number of other things in between!

No matter! You want to learn how to scissors...presumably in-plane. You will need to gain proficiency in two things... energy recognition and view management.

First energy recognition...your own and the bandit's. Since a scissors is a turning contest, you should know your airplane's best turn speeds...these vary with altitude and weight, but typically lie within the 200-250 mph area for most WW2 fighters.

If you want to maximize your turn performance (max rate and min radius), keep your speed withing this approximate range.

If you begin the reversal well above this range, initially chop the throttle to idle while rolling. Once you begin pulling back hard, push your throttle back to full as your speed bleeds toward 250mph and leave it there while you are pulling G. During the actual reversals, you might consider pulling the throttle back if you unload to roll (to keep from inadvertantly accelerating ahead), but once your bank is set, go full throttle again as you apply back pressure.

....

Andy

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]

Just wanted to reemphasize this part of Andy's discussion.  Everything he says here is vital to setting up a successful scissors.

For WWII era prop fighters, there are really only two ways you can keep your speed within Andy's 200-250 range.  Give up altitude as you maneuver at max G, or maneuver at sustainable G levels as you preserve altitude.  These planes are simply too thrust limited to permit max G maneuvers while sustaining speed and altitude.

In all likelihood, you'll need to maneuver hard enough that your speed bleeds below optimum as the fight progresses.

The only part of the post I have even a minor quibble with is the part about "what happens next is beyond the scope of this thread."

To my mind, what happens next is the meat of the matter when it comes to a scissors.  But, as Andy also points out, what happens next depends on how well you manage your views, conserve your E, and assess your opponent's E state.  This is the "timing and technique" that is so critical to succeeding with the scissors.

What happens next just can't be wrapped up in a tidy recipe.  The important parts to remember are:  prepare for your next reversal early;  pull only as hard as necessary to keep him out front;  take the shots that present themselves.

Each situation is going to be slightly different, and call for adjustments in exactly what you do and when.  That's what makes the scissors such a risky maneuver.

Because of its risk, the scissors isn't a maneuver to be preferred.  But, sometimes it's your only hope and knowing how to do it properly will bring you a lot of satisfaction and success.

Practice with the drones.  Work with the trainers.  Work with your friends.

Good luck.

Dwarf

The scissors is also useful when you're being jumped by more than one bandit.  Then it's probably best to use it strictly defensively as a way to spoil their aim and escape.  Once again, each situation is different and SA and experience are your best guides.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

[SpitLead]

Oh yea, and never, ever run thru the house with scissors either  

[Badboy]

Originally posted by Dwarf:


The scissors is also useful when you're being jumped by more than one bandit.  Then it's probably best to use it strictly defensively as a way to spoil their aim and escape.

Guys,

At the risk of appearing unkind, I would like to provide a warning to anyone unfamiliar with the manoeuvre being discussed in this thread. Reading back through this topic it is difficult to find a single message posted by Dwarf that doesn’t cry out for correction. There is so much miscomprehension, and specious argument in his messages that I simply don’t have the strength to labour each and every point. While many have pointed out some of the more glaring errors, unfortunately a great deal of his nonsense has already slipped through, and I cringe to think of anyone taking him seriously. So, for the benefit of anyone hoping to learn something from this, let me give you a hint… Dwarf has been trying to tell a retired weapons school instructor what a scissors is, if that doesn’t set off alarm bells nothing will. While Dwarf obviously doesn’t mind making a fool of himself, it would be a shame to allow him to mislead unwary readers. Fortunately there has been enough very good advice posted here that Dwarf’s messages can be advantageously ignored.

Best wishes

Badboy

[Rocket]

Dwarf I only have one question.
What makes you the expert on advanced combat manuevers?
I know for a fact that badboy and Andy know what they are talking about.  One of them (I'll let ya guess) is a retired instructor for the Air Force and has numerous hours of flight time doing it for real.
I like when a subject like this comes up and gets discussed in length but at the same time I like to know what qualifications the posters have so I can try to make heads or tails out of it.  
  I know Andy and Badboy have bailed me out before on here pointing out glaring and small errors I have made.  I learn something new everytime they post to any topic    
I also take them very seriously when they post something up.
  I am a trainer for AH but have 0 flight hours or ACM training.  I usually avoid making misleading posts to these type of topics. I don't know the fancy terms and usually try to get it out in the best way I can and still be understood.  (Andy thanks for fixin some of my errors in the past   )
I am more than happy to go up in the TA to show somebody than post something I can't explain clearly.
 

  I would like sometime to see a good diagram of scissors with the defensive plane flying fairly level and the offensive plane coming in a decent rate of closure.  This seems to be what most are looking for.. when do I start scissors, how do I break a guns solution when I have gotten myself in deep and the guy is saddled up or near saddled up.      

Salute!
Rocket

[Andy Bush]

Hi Rocket

Here's some info from an earlier piece I did:

>>The Scissors.  The classic scissors is a series of reversals performed by two aircraft, each attempting to drive towards the other’s six o’clock. It is a low speed flying contest where victory goes to the pilot most successful in controlling airspeed and lift vector orientation. The maneuvering objective is to fly slower than your opponent while keeping your lift vector up and behind him as much as possible.
                                       
            
The stage is set for a scissors when an attacker overshoots, and the defender reverses. The end result is a series of reversals as each opponent tries to reduce his forward velocity to a minimum and thereby force his adversary out in front.

Two classic BFM maneuvers are used to great effect in the scissors - the lead turn and the “pull to high six”, the orientation of the lift vector behind and above the opponent’s flight path.

a.  The lead turn is used in a scissors to gain an angular advantage on the opponent. The lead turn is initiated before the two flight paths cross. The pilot initiating the lead turn will reduce his angle off and minimize his lateral separation. His objective is to align his flight path with the opponent while continuing to maintain as vertical a lift vector as possible. Since the lift vector is most vertical when the wings are level, rudder is often used to change aircraft heading.                    
 

     

Positions 1 and 2 illustrate the scissors lead turn. The pilot at position 2 has reversed his bank prior to crossing his opponent’s flight path, unlike the pilot at position 1 who maintains his turn until he crosses his opponent’s flight path. This early reversal allows the first pilot to remain inside his opponent’s turn as the scissors continues.<<

The question of whether or not to try a reversal into a scissors is a hard one. Here is one way to look at the situation...and this assumes an academic 1v1 discussion with no other factors in consideration.

The situation begins with the attacker overshooting the defender's six at fairly close range. The defender wants to reverse to go on the offensive, but he is unsure if this is a good idea. Why would it not be?

Because, by reversing, the defender may be solving the attacker's overshoot...it may be smarter for the defender to continue his hard defensive turn. It all depends on how the attacker overshoots.

The attacker's overshoot will have three main characteristics that the defender must assess. One is the angle off that the attacker has when crossing the defender's flight path...high or low. The second is the speed or rate that the attacker crosses that flight path...fast or slow. And the last is the magnitude of the attacker's forward velocity relative to the defender...in other words, his closure.

To visualize this, imagine using one of the aft looking views. You see the bandit sliding across your six as you turn hard into his gun attack.

Your first concern is his angle off. Use his fuselage alignment as a measure of this. If you are looking pretty much at his nose, down the fuselage, then the angle off is low, the bandit is pointed mostly at you. But if you are looking at more of a planform picture and the bandit is pointed well to the outside of the turn, then the angle off is high.

You want to see high angle off.

Next, consider his rate of movement across your six. He is either moving fast across your six, or not.

You want to see fast movement.

Finally, you consider his closure. This is particularly true of low angle off situations. Is it high or low?

You want high closure.

Higher angle off...fast overshoot speed...and high closure. All of these will tend to move the bandit to the outside of the turn and forward towards the defender's 3/9 line. This then creates the turning room needed for the defender to reverse.

Lastly, there are two kinds of reversals into the scissors...fast and slow.

A fast reversal is used when the bandit overshoots with high closure. The bandit's speed is going to carry him to the outside of the defender's turn as well as moving him forward. The defender can unload, roll approximately 180 degrees to orient his lift vector on or behind the bandit, and then pull into the bandit.

A slow reversal is used when the bandit overshoots with relatively high angle off but with low closure...or with a lower angle off but high closure. In this situation, the defender wants to remain loaded up while he rolls. This helps in forcing the bandit forward on the defender's 3/9 line. This roll is usually done by holding the G of the defensive turn while using lots of aileron and rudder to roll. Note that beaucoup energy is lost doing this, so the defender is really commiting himself to a last ditch fight.

Once the roll is complete, the defender pulls to the bandit's "high six". He looks for the chance to lead his next reversal with a lead turn...it's this lead turn that often wins the scissors.

Hope that isn't too confusing...if so, please point out the sticky parts and I'll try again!

Andy

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Rocket:
Dwarf I only have one question.
What makes you the expert on advanced combat manuevers?
Rocket

I haven't claimed to be an expert.  I've merely challenged what doesn't make sense to me and presented the best information I have on the maneuver in question.

As always, with everything I post, I'm not asking anyone to take what I say on faith, but rather to think about it, and if it makes any kind of sense to them, to test it for themselves.

When you get right down to it, ACM is about using what works for you.  And, each of us can only use what we understand and can visualize.

That's why Shaw takes multiple readings.  His explanations are so dense (as in full of information), that, even with the diagrams, most folks don't "get it" first, second, or even third time through.  Until we can "get it", we can't really use it.  

Finally, after we've had enough different fights, and died enough different ugly virtual deaths, something happens and parts of Shaw that were utterly mysterious start making perfect sense.  We finally "get it" and can begin to use it.

As I think this thread demonstrates, the scissors is a tough nut for all of us to crack.  Even after reading Shaw, and all of the discussion here, you still have questions. It seems none of us have done a very good job of explaining this tricky maneuver.  I'm sorry that my effort hasn't helped you understand it better.

Dwarf

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

[Dwarf]

Andy -

Thanks for the diagram.  Your "scissors with lead turn" is much more how every scissors fight I've been in has looked.

I'm not presuming to speak for Rocket here, so I'll make this my question.

If you were faced with a bandit on your 6 with low AOT and only moderate closure - Too low to dive or Split-S or make an effective Break-turn - low but still at moderate speed - would the scissors be one good option to get you out of this mess with a whole skin?  (yeah, I know I shouldn't be in that kind of fix in the first place, but...   )

If so, how would you execute it, given that it may take more than a single reversal to either force him out in front, or to break off his attack?

Dwarf

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

[bigUC]

Since you guys left me behind coughing in the dust in this tread, I will just ask for a short timeout and thank all of you for responding. I'm trying to read and comprehend the posts, remap my views and greasing up those pedals  
thx
--

[Andy Bush]

Originally posted by Dwarf:
[QB]Andy -

If you were faced with a bandit on your 6 with low AOT and only moderate closure - Too low to dive or Split-S or make an effective Break-turn - low but still at moderate speed - would the scissors be one good option to get you out of this mess with a whole skin?  

Dwarf

Absolutely not...at least not in the traditional sense. All you would accomplish is the reduction of the lead required for his gun tracking solution.

This situation has few remedies. The most common response is the jink out...but only 'works' if you have a thrust advantage over the bandit.

There is a second possibility called the 'Level S Defense'. It's an in-plane defense designed to take advantage of the time lag between the defender's actions and the attacker's response. Any pitch rate or roll rate advantage that the defender may enjoy is also a big plus. The overall objective is to get the attacker 'out of phase' with the defender. It looks like this:

>>The Level S Guns Defense.  This maneuver is similar to a horizontal scissors. It begins with the attacker close to firing range with you in a defensive turn. As the attacker’s nose begins to establish lead on you, you unload and roll rapidly 180 degrees. You then pull hard away. Watch the attacker. If he cannot follow you, he has been trapped in lag pursuit, and you may continue to extend. Most likely, the attacker will have the nose authority to roll after you and reattempt to pull lead. As he brings his nose to you, you will again unload and roll 180 degrees back into him, while making sure you do not pull back into his gun line. This second reversal will increase the attacker’s closure and will move him out on your wing line. You may use speed brake and idle power at this time to accelerate his closure. As he continues to move forward, you then should roll to point your lift vector out of his plane of motion and pull hard out of plane. At this point, you and the attacker should be essentially neutral. If the second reversal does not result in the attacker moving rapidly to your wing line, then additional 180 degree reversals will be necessary.

 (Image removed from quote.)

BTW, this text and drawing, as well as the previous are my own work from previous publications.

Andy

[Lephturn]

I'll take a crack at this one...

Obviously it will depend on the comparative airplane performance, along with the other available options.  In this case lets assume similar performance, and a lack of other viable options to avoid death.  

Scissors is all about decelleration.  You want to slow down faster than the other guy, yet avoid his guns as he closes on you.  Generally, simply cutting throttle to slow down won't get you out of his cone of fire, so that option is out.  Instead, we can use some form of scissors to try to sucker the attacker into overshooting your flight path.  This is a sucker move... and by that I mean it only works if the attacking pilot fails to counter effectively.  If the attacking pilot is paying attention and takes basic steps to avoid the overshoot... you are likely doomed.

So I'm in this situation for example... I'm in my Jug (P-47-D25) with a bandit on my 6... say an FW-190 A5... a very similar plane to the one I'm flying in most way... a close fight.  He is closing moderately and I am flying at about 250 Mph at low altitude.  I can't out-turn him, too low to dive to escape, and no friendlies in the area.  He has more E, so I can't zoom to safety or use vertical moves and expect to win.  Ruh roh.  I'm in bad trouble, and I'm going to be forced to risk a sucker move to force an overshoot, or at least to force him to break off long enough that I might gain enough separation to escape.

So, given that setup... scissors of some sort are a viable option.  Give my E state and low altitude, in this case I choose the flat scissors.  Now, my job here is to increase the closure rate by flying a longer flight path than my attacker.  I'm going to start with a fairly gentle break slightly high and lets say to the left... at this point he should be at pretty long range... D 1.0k or so on my FE and closing.  My goal is to get him aggressive by giving him a look at a nice big fat target in an easy deflection shot.  I want him concentrating on lining up the shot, not the closure rate.    If you are entering the scissors (as the guy being attacked) you may want to cut throttle until you get down to your best corner/roll speed and to help increase closure.  You will need lots of E to hit these hard breaks though, so don't slow down too much, once you are at the top of your best flying speed, open the throttle and WEP it, your hard breaks will burn more speed than you can generate.  Next comes the hard part... I have to roll back the opposite way fast and pull hard, and I have to do it after he has committed to follow me, but before he guns my butt out of the sky.  In a perfect world, I would roll under and pull hard back the other way just as he fires on the space where I used to be.  In reality, you want to err on the side of caution and break before he has a shot at you.  Just before.  I'm flying this looking out my rear view BTW, watching his closure, range, and Angle Off Tail (AOT).  Don't try to visually see him pulling lead before you break.  Although that would work in real life, in an online game network lag means he can be pulling lead for a shot on his FE, and you don't see it.  Only experience and deaths will tell you where that spot is, and it will vary with connection latency.

Ok, so I've made one break to the left, he sets me up for a shot, then before he fires I roll hard left (rolling under, using gravity to assist me) using stick and hard rudder until I am banked back to the right, the opposite direction.  You hit that roll as crisp and fast as you can, and once you are on your new flight path you pull hard.  Watch out your rear view again and you will hopefully see the enemy roll back to follow you.  Wait until he has rolled onto your new flight path again, and started pulling for a shot, then hit your next roll again, fast and hard to reverse direction again just before he can fire at you.  Now he is going to try and line you up for a snapshot... shoot you as you pull past him going the other way.  Try not to cross his nose flying completely level, a bit low and below is nose will make it harder for him to nail you.  Rolling underneath helps this, you can come out of it a bit nose low and start your pull, then roll up a bit more if needed so you don't hit the ground.

Ideally, after a couple of these, the enemy will overshoot your flight path.  At that point you will either have a shot at him as he crosses your nose in the scissors, or you can simply roll onto his 6 and try for a shot.  He may try to zoom away vertically, but if he has bled enough of his energy advantage trying to follow your scissors, you may be able to go up behind him and stay there long enough to gun his brains out.  Beware though, if you try that without enough energy, you are being rope-a-doped and he will flip over and kill you as you stall.

Now for the nasty part.  A wary pilot will see what you are doing and can easily counter it in one of several ways.  The most common counter you will see is that the enemy will break off and zoom up above you.  In this case he is conserving his energy advantage and letting you blow your E by executing hard break turns.  When the enemy pulls off this way, you need to relax your turn and accellerate to gain E, watching him line up his next attach, and the game starts again.  Planes that are better E fighters than the one you are in will generally choose this option.

Another counter is that the enemy pilot will use lag pursuit.  That is, he knows you are trying to make him overshoot, so he will aim his plane behind yours through the maneuvers.  In this way he doesn't get a shot in, but he avoids flying a shorter path... avoiding the overshoot.  After a few scissors back and forth, you will likely be very low on energy, and the attacker will be able to camp out on your six and gun you down.  Planes that are better turners, and have better low-speed control and performance will likely choose this option as a counter, as they can camp out on your six without worrying that you will simply out-turn them in a flat turn.

A most effective counter to the scissors is called a lag displacement roll.  Essentially it is simply flying lag pursuit to avoid the overshoot, however instead of simply aiming behind the enemy, the attacker using lag displacement rolls will add a vertical component to his flight path, and then roll over into lag pursuit behind the prey.  This is most difficult to describe, but it is most effective.  Essentially if I am the attacker and you break left, then right to start a scissors, I would start a shallow climb then as you passed beneath me I would roll the opposite way and pull gently to roll around your flight path and end up back on your six, but taking a longer route to get there.  In the end I maintian my position at your six, minimize closure, and also retain more E than the fellow pulling flat turns for a scissors.  Planes that roll well such as the FW and the P-47 will often use this tactic to counter a scissors.  If you see your enemy doing this... you are very likely about to die, as he is a very smart and dangerous enemy.  This is not an intuitive move, so the guy on your six pulling these off is a very good pilot and his is not likely to get sucked into overshooting.  Try your best, but prepare to die.  

There is another move that is not really a counter but that you will see.  When you start a scissors after the second break some guys will realize they are being suckered and will simply disengage.  You break left, then right, and left again.  The attacker follows the first two, then simply doesn't follow your third break, instead either running away level, diving away, or maybe a gentle zoom.  In this case you have just gotten a bunch of separation that you can use to extend.  You can then climb and look to re-attack on more favourable terms, or escape the situation.

Whew.  Well have a read and fire away with the questions.  This is a very complex subject so don't expect to "get it" all right away.  Book some time with myself or another trainer and we'll work the scissors from both view points and it will really illustrate a lot of the points I've made above.

[Rocket]

Dwarf,
  I hope I didn't offend ya I just wanted to see where you were comin from. Sometimes it is hard enough to sort thru these discussions and it helps if I know what the experience of the poster.    I agree about shaws and some of these discussion threads on ACM.  They get pretty deep pretty quick and are tough to understand at times.  I have my copy of shaws close at hand and reference it all the time. Especially when I get beat and can't figure out how.  Then I watch the film and read shaws and the errors just jump out    

Andy and Leph,
  Thanks much I always learn a little bit  
That is basicly about the same tactics I use when I see it comin.

Salute!
Rocket

[Vulch]

Originally posted by bigUC:
Anyone willing to share the secret of performing good scissors?

There is a description of a scissors on my website.  Not written by me, but extracted from the Royal Navy Sea Harrier operations manual, ACM section.  It has a description of, and diagrams of vertical scissors, flat horizontal scissors and a rolling scissors.  There is also information on how to defeat the scissors.

The link to the correct page is:
 http://www.vulch.clara.net/acm.html

PS: for what its worth I wouldn't argue on ACM against Badz.

Vulch  :> )