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Author Topic: The enigma of the Bf-109  (Read 10285 times)

Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #225 on: February 23, 2005, 09:14:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
The support of the Army was NOT a luftwaffe priority at the beginning of the attack on poland.


Air superiority is always a priority, but this is by no means the only purpose of an airforce. Once air superiority is established (note: air superiority is not the same as air dominance), the air force is free to to operate in the best deemed way to achieve victory.



Quote
Originally posted by humble
In fact the luftwaffe only had a single ground support plane (the JU-87) during the course of the entire war.


Ummm ... no.

Ju87
Hs123
Hs126
Hs129
Fw189
Fw190F
Fi156
Fi256
Ka430
Go242
Go244
Me321
Me323

These were all planes designed to assist the army in attack and/or support roles, and I'm sure I've missed some.



Quote
Originally posted by humble
The first of these principles was the concentration of all available effort on one task at a time. The second principle was the elimination of any obstacle that might hamper the movement of the ground forces

This is a false statement, the luftwaffe was never focused on ground support as its primary focus during the initial stages of the war.[/B]


Nor does that sentence state that. The LW would, if possible, focus on one task at a time. First counter-air operations. Second battlefield interdiction and support.
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Offline DiabloTX

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Re: Re: The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #226 on: February 23, 2005, 10:52:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
I might have missed something in your post :)

you imply that it was 'always' obsolete.
and that even initial versions 'offered little'
maybe i'm nitpicking here, but from your initial post I inferred that you considered the 109 to not have been a great fighter, from its initial debut up to the end of the war.


I can see your point.  I was a little vague in my first post so I tried to clear it up in my second.  When I said "offered little" I meant it as not having alot of room for further developement.  That's why I tried to focus my intention in my second post, the one I quoted earlier.
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #227 on: February 24, 2005, 12:02:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Air superiority is always a priority, but this is by no means the only purpose of an airforce. Once air superiority is established (note: air superiority is not the same as air dominance), the air force is free to to operate in the best deemed way to achieve victory.



 

Ummm ... no.

Ju87
Hs123
Hs126
Hs129
Fw189
Fw190F
Fi156
Fi256
Ka430
Go242
Go244
Me321
Me323

These were all planes designed to assist the army in attack and/or support roles, and I'm sure I've missed some.



 

Nor does that sentence state that. The LW would, if possible, focus on one task at a time. First counter-air operations. Second battlefield interdiction and support.



Once again I'm utterly amazed...

The Hs123 was replaced by the Ju87. 126 was was an offshoot used as a recon plane primarily...

The Hs 129 was only real attack aircraft and it was romanian...not german.

The rest are transports gliders etc....except for the 190F...which is simply a fighter modified for the ground support roll. Not a plane designed for the task. The stuka was obsolite in 1940 but the germans never developed a true gorund attack plane to replace it...tells you just how important they thought ground support was.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 12:05:04 AM by humble »
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Offline humble

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The LW was designed around the principle of combined arms warfare....?
« Reply #228 on: February 24, 2005, 12:17:35 AM »
Actually no airforce was further from functioning as a combined arms force. Simply looking at its inventory of planes establishes that fact.

In reality the 110 is the single best "JABO" plane the luftwaffe has although it was originally designed as a "heavy fighter" not a ground attack plane. At no time in any way was any plane except the Ju-87 designed with ground attack capability in mind...let alone as a primary focus.

Lets compare this to the "real" combined arms "airforce"...the US army air corps. This was truely an extension of the US Army. Many planes (the P-39 is a good example) were dramatically altered to better suit there "real job" of supporting ground troops. Others (The P51) started as attack aircraft (A-36) and were reworked as needed. Regardless of any planes role it was designed to have a strong ground support capability. In fact as the war progressed interceptors like the P-38 and P-47 transitioned seemlessly from their original role to a ground support function.

I've found this to be a fun diversion for a few days. The reality is that facts & history wont stand in the face of fantasy here so I dont see any reason to keep batting the ball around.

Best wishes to all ....
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Offline MiloMorai

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #229 on: February 24, 2005, 12:44:06 AM »
Quote
The Hs 129 was only real attack aircraft and it was romanian...not german.


WRONG

Henchel is a German a/c manufacturer and the design was developed to a German spec for a ground assualt a/c issued in April 1937 from experience in the SCW. The prototype flying in May 1939. The BV141 was designed to the same spec.

The prototype was constructed at the Henchel factory at Schonefeld, near Berlin.

The Romanian Hs129s came from German production.


Quote
Others (The P51) started as attack aircraft (A-36) and were reworked as needed.

The A-36 was developed from the P-51, not the other way around. The P-51 had been in production for a year before the A-36 came along. The A-36 did not see combat until April 1943. The British flying the first P-51(Mustang I) mission in May 1942.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 12:56:04 AM by MiloMorai »
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Offline DiabloTX

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #230 on: February 24, 2005, 06:23:04 AM »
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Offline Kegger26

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #231 on: February 24, 2005, 06:44:38 AM »
Thank god.
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Offline Charge

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #232 on: February 24, 2005, 07:01:16 AM »
Nice input Kegger, I'm sure that is the best you can do. Now go back to some of your PXX worship threads.

It was good as long as it lasted on topic Diablo. Sorry for HJ on my part.

-C+
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Offline Kegger26

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #233 on: February 24, 2005, 07:08:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Nice input Kegger, I'm sure that is the best you can do. Now go back to some of your PXX worship threads.

It was good as long as it lasted on topic Diablo. Sorry for HJ on my part.

-C+


 Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. And in the words of the the Eagles, Get over it.

-Keg
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Offline Charge

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #234 on: February 24, 2005, 07:16:09 AM »
"Get over it."- "And don't stumble as you may get your mouth full of it." The Mighty Rubber Ducks.

NP, just tired of fan boys pouring smart remarks on treads they have not participated.

:)

-C+
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Offline Kegger26

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #235 on: February 24, 2005, 07:18:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
"Get over it."- "And don't stumble as you may get your mouth full of it." The Mighty Rubber Ducks.

NP, just tired of fan boys pouring smart remarks on treads they have not participated.

:)

-C+


 Hardly a fan boy. :)

-Keg.
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Offline HoHun

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #236 on: February 24, 2005, 07:29:15 AM »
Hi Charge,

>It was good as long as it lasted on topic Diablo. Sorry for HJ on my part.

Not your fault, really.

In fact, the digression highlighted accurately why the Me 109 has such a bad reputation - not because of any fault of the aircraft itself, but just because the Luftwaffe lost the air war.

When reasons for the defeat are sought, what is more natural than to blame the aircraft?

(Not that the Luftwaffe pilots ever saw it that way.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Offline MiloMorai

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #237 on: February 24, 2005, 07:29:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
"Get over it."- "And don't stumble as you may get your mouth full of it." The Mighty Rubber Ducks.

NP, just tired of fan boys pouring smart remarks on treads they have not participated.

:)

-C+


More like spammers than f-boys.
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Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #238 on: February 24, 2005, 10:08:52 AM »
Humble is going back on ignore. Simply not worth the effort.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #239 on: February 24, 2005, 01:09:01 PM »
Humble you really have a shown a great deal of simple factual ignorance in your last few posts especially about simple and obvious things such as the orgin of the P51 or the Hs129..  But hey if it doesnt have be true if it matches your preset views...

Then I must mention your amazing contradictions like prasing the P47 and P38 for their "seamless transition" to ground attack while deriding the Fw190F as some half hearyted attempt at ground support as evdience of US superioroty in ground support ideology..  

:rofl
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 01:13:41 PM by GRUNHERZ »
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