Who decides? THEY do!

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

LOL. They don't grasp that do they? Surrender your weapons, and you surrender your rights. Then they don't care whether they should be in your home or not.

Unlike many other nations, we have laws against unreasonable search and siezure, and that means they have to have a valid reason to enter your home, business or vehicle. The fact that you own a firearm and you may not be storing it exactly as they wish is not a valid reason.

[lasersailor184]

No, you don't surrender your rights, you surrender your power.


All these places that have had the guns taken away from them still have rights... for now.  But when those rights do dissappear, they have no power to reaffirm them.

[bustr]

It appears a disconnect happens with these discussions that can be identified by the difference in cultures that have been disarmed or given up their arms and rights to self defence and ours which has codified as the law of the land the right of We the People to defend our lives, liberty and property.

We Americans respond with the passion of a people that still have these rights intact and will die before surrendering them. We are made fun of and baited here because it's easy to get a rise out of us. This reaction is very healthy and reflects not as of yet,  having our Creator given rights controlled by the State in the name of some nebulous good.

Their amusement and disdane for our neolithic chauvinism to these throw back concepts goes hand in hand with their very ridgidly state controlled cultures. After all it is more enlightened and progressive to intrust your freedom and security to a central authority than the odious responsibilitys of actually learning the arts of survival. The odds are against most of them surviving.

So they pray the state won't do anything more than it's current social contract. The state is made up of just as corrupt and weak people as we are. It makes no sense in terms of personal survival trusting them to do anything more than serve their own intersts just like you do for yourself. And in that case giving up the rights our Creator granted us to a group of humans for the illusion of security is a suicide pact.

[Lazerus]

Without offering an opinion on the subject of guns or gun control, I have to tell ya Vulcan, your attempt to compare driving under the influence and gun storage is absurd. For many reasons.

Just one of those reasons is that you are taking away another's right to travel safely on the road. Speeding also takes away the right of safe travel, that's why there are laws restricting both.

Having a gun stored in your own home, in a manner not deemed proper by whoever, does not take away anyone's rights. In fact, if they happen to be in your home, and happen to obtain access to your gun without your knowledge, then they are depriving you of your rights, and should be punished.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Lazerus
Without offering an opinion on the subject of guns or gun control, I have to tell ya Vulcan, your attempt to compare driving under the influence and gun storage is absurd. For many reasons.

Just one of those reasons is that you are taking away another's right to travel safely on the road. Speeding also takes away the right of safe travel, that's why there are laws restricting both.

Having a gun stored in your own home, in a manner not deemed proper by whoever, does not take away anyone's rights. In fact, if they happen to be in your home, and happen to obtain access to your gun without your knowledge, then they are depriving you of your rights, and should be punished.

And what if your 8 year old kid accidentally shoots my kid while playing with your gun... or some teenage burgles your home finds the gun, and shoots my wife while on a gun-ego-trip?

Both drunk driving and gun storage are legal responsibilities placed upon drivers and owners of vehicles. These laws were put into place by democratically elected governments, and enforced by police. So I find it extremely amusing that I get such reactions from the gun-owning community on this BBS with regards to the drunk driving law when they have such rabid convictions against another law designed to ensure safety and brought to law by the same governmental process.

Hypocrates. Pure and simple.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Vulcan
And what if your 8 year old kid accidentally shoots my kid while playing with your gun... or some teenage burgles your home finds the gun, and shoots my wife while on a gun-ego-trip?

Both drunk driving and gun storage are legal responsibilities placed upon drivers and owners of vehicles. These laws were put into place by democratically elected governments, and enforced by police. So I find it extremely amusing that I get such reactions from the gun-owning community on this BBS with regards to the drunk driving law when they have such rabid convictions against another law designed to ensure safety and brought to law by the same governmental process.

Hypocrates. Pure and simple.

Drunk Driving and Gun Storage are NOT the Same.   To even ATTEMPT such a qoute, you must have to be REALLY drunk.    

Each and every day, I tell myself with regard to this BBS: "People HAVE To get smarter or They have more brains than that!?".  Vulcan, I think you know where I'm going with this.  

Karaya

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by Vulcan
And what if your 8 year old kid accidentally shoots my kid while playing with your gun...

Then he has taken away your kids rights and should be punished. What if your kid accidentally pokes my kids eye out while simulating a sword fight with the shishkabobs in your kitchen? Should there be a law requiring that shishkabobs be "properly" stored?


 

or some teenage burgles your home finds the gun, and shoots my wife while on a gun-ego-trip?

[/B]

Then he has violated my rights and your wife's rights and should be punished.

Both drunk driving and gun storage are legal responsibilities placed upon drivers and owners of vehicles. These laws were put into place by democratically elected governments, and enforced by police. So I find it extremely amusing that I get such reactions from the gun-owning community on this BBS with regards to the drunk driving law when they have such rabid convictions against another law designed to ensure safety and brought to law by the same governmental process.

[/B]

But they are not the same thing. I'm sorry if you cannot see the difference. It doesn't matter how the law was enacted, the basic principles are not the same.

Hypocrates. Pure and simple.

I'm sorry mate, you're just wrong on this one.

[bustr]

Gents,

Vulcan is a worshiper of the cult of the "WHAT IF". If he can imagine it then we have to be controled from doing it. Basicly our potential to act indipendantly and unpredictably terrifies him and all socialists, or the term is "stateists". A stateist believes in a central controling body for all aspects of "our" lives.

To a stateist we can be no better at self control than himself. So you will always hear from such as Vulcan, "There has gotta be a law". No one can be trusted because "what if your kid takes your GUN from your closet and shoots my kid?" WHAT IF.....increadabely thats the road to H$LL paved with good intentions.

No where in that scenario will Vulcan have taught his kid to tell your kid to go away if he has a gun or leave the area and tell his own father. Vulcan's scenario is painting his own kid as a helpless and mindless victom of circumstances. No credit for having a mind.

Vulcan's scenario is a 100% winner for himself because some where, some how , some time some one is going to screw up and fufill his prophecy. He is a vulture waiting on the tree of catastrophy. He just knows one is around the bend. So no law is too many laws if just one life is saved.

And so because he can always win his argument and prove his point, yes it is human nature to screw up, he will shred our God given rights and the constitution that protects them, while hiding behind his child to protect himself from our evil human screw ups.

In effect he will turn over all of our freedoms to the state if it can save the life of "one child" or keep himself alive one second longer.

Vulcan is terrified of Freedom and the responsibilities and relalities that come with shouldering it.

[Zulu7]

Lazs!!!! Man you are realy something.

Nope this thread is  "not going badly for me" I don't realy have to worry that much about being shot dead so I'm doing fine thanks.

I would say that where others use the term "Amerihater" in here you might be said to be a "Britophobe"

Either that or you are just an argumentative B**tard? ( probably more likely )



Masherbrum, your arguments are pathetic and every time you run out of anytghing to say you resort to personal abuse and attack. Try a new tactic. My nose is getting painfull as you keeep getting up it all the time!

[wrag]

Sadly I've come to the conclusion that Vulcan is wasting everyones time.

Post are not being read for content so much as ammunition for arguing.

I therefore from this point forward see no purpose in replying to Vulcan.  As any reply will not be read but only examined for USE?!

IMHO As someone has said already disingenuous.

Our cultures do not match.  I'm begining to think they never shall.

Oh well........

[lazs2]

I think the real core of the arguemnt against vulkcan has allready been made... A mans home is his castle..  There are many dangerous things in a mans home but the government has no right to go in there and search for em or restrict em unless they pose a direct  danger to neighbors or say firefighters...For instance... you can't have improperly stored gasoline (more than a certain amount in residential areas) or explosives... this is not because someone may steal them or because the kids may get em and set themselves on fire while playing budaist monk... No...it is because any natural disaster like a fire will endanger the surrounding homes...  Chain saws can be stolen... knives and welding torches and a million other dangerous tools...   You don't even have to have a fence around an indoor pool.

There is no such thing as a "safe" storage device if you are concerned about theft... Burglars get into gun safes in a myriad of ways if they want too.  I am not worried about guns in the hands of criminals so much as guns used by criminals.

If someone steals a gun or is old enough to get and fire a gun in someones house... It is they that are to blame not the owner of the gun in his own home.

and zulu... I am saying that you get upset because your gun arguements are going badly.   It is you who deride gun owners and conservatives and then cry foul when they put up a good defence of their beliefs..

Think about it... you have threatened to leave threads...I have not.   You have been outraged... I have not.

lazs

[lazs2]

wrag... our cultures do not match and hopefully they never will.... If you recall... we left their culture because it was a poor match for individual freedom.   If they come around to our way of thinking... fine but.. I certainly don't want to join them and the women.

and... vulcan... In the U.S., most guns get more valuable as they age.   It is not often that they lose value... offering money for weapons is still confiscation if the alternative is incarceration and other penalties while still losing the weapon.   Sell em to nanny or become a criminal... real 'voluntary' eh?

Oh.... have you guys read the Dec. 04 Department of Justice opinion?   lengthy document that studies the 2nd amendment... They conclude that the second amendment can not be construed in any other way but as an individual right.  

lazs

[mosgood]

Hold on a sec.....

Why even say "Drunk" driving.  Even to drive a personal possession "a car" you need to have it safe to drive.  There are regulations on emmissions and safety devices.  In some states, California is one, you need to get it checked out every 2 years or so to get your registration. (Laz... do they still do that?)

Requiring a gun to be securely and properly stored doesn't take away the right to have one or own one.   I think that someone being able to just walk into your house and take it away if it's not stored in a legally "predefiined" manner is a little extreme though.  A fine or maybe confiscated until it's proven that it can be properly stored is better.  But if the law states that it should be stored in a specific way and it's not.....  your breaking the law.  Period.  And you are abusing your right to won one by not following the laws of ownership.

[lazs2]

I do not have to regester or keep in safe order any vehicle stored in my home..  I do not have to worry about the kids or criminals stealing it and me being to blame.   I can even drive the car drunk as a skunk on my own property.   I do not have to store knives or chainsaws or other potentialy dangerous items properly in the off chance that they may be stolen or injure a child.

Why single out guns?  They are about the least dangerous thing in the house to children so far as accidental death stats go.

lazs

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Zulu7
Masherbrum, your arguments are pathetic and every time you run out of anytghing to say you resort to personal abuse and attack. Try a new tactic. My nose is getting painfull as you keeep getting up it all the time!  

Go ride that scooter of yours.  Pathetic?  How so, because DRUNK DRIVING and GUN STORAGE are not COMPARABLE?  Take your lame smilie Zulu and shove it.

Karaya