Author Topic: 64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?  (Read 3042 times)

Offline 214thCavalier

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2005, 04:21:50 PM »
Skuzzy i know its not going to run 32 bit code faster "just" because its a 64 bit processor.
I do know for a fact in gaming my AMD 64 is considerably faster than my P4 was, but i put that down to it being a more efficient chip design not because it says its 64 bit.
However in some desktop stuff its painful without the hyperthreading.

That link re the Farcry patch they got inprovements because it was coded for a 64 bit OS and cpu, not because they just compiled a 32 bit game as 64 bit.

32 Bit code which is run on a  64 bit OS would be silly to expect it to run better. Its good enough that there is no performance penalty.

I also suspect it will be a while before any 64 bit optimised games are actually released let alone any further game patches.

Personally i am sticking with my 32 bit windows until i see many more programs optimised for 64 bit.

Offline Overlag

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2005, 04:36:57 PM »
that farcry stuff looks interesting slightly better graphics, and on average 2fps faster than 32bit code.

however issuse with nvidia drivers and farcry.... (or was it both nvidia and ati...).
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #92 on: May 10, 2005, 05:12:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
CC- Skuzzy, I think we'll see more benefit from multithreaded games in conjuction with 64-bit though.
I seem to remember that the initial change from 16 to 32 bit yielded no great immediate benefits, and took quite some time before any real benefits did appear.
Think we've kind of hit a plateau at the moment, needs time for both 64 bit and dual/multi core to mature before we can expect to see exactly what advantages can be gained.

On a positive note in now seems XP64 can run 32 bit games with less of a drop in speed than during the betas/RC versions.
I tried AH2 under XP64, took a slight frame rate hit, but the game itself appeared to run a lot smoother.


Kev, I think Skuzzy is referring to this

Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy  
No, recompiling to 64bits would slow us down appreciably. Microsoft's 64bit compiler puts all 64bit programs on top of the .NET architecture.
The MS compiler guru has said that in most cases native 64bit applications will run slower than the 32bit counterpart.


And indeed, he has posted it in many threads, some of which you were a participant in.  Note the last sentence of his quote.

Offline Skuzzy

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #93 on: May 10, 2005, 05:21:07 PM »
Overlag, I have never said it was a bad thing (you really are way to sensitive about this), and Cav, you misunderstood what I was saying, but ended up agreeing with me anyway. :)

The AMD64 can be an AMD32 and the improvements would be the same, as far as performance gains goes.  Like you said Cav, it is more due to being a better design.  There is nothing inherent in moving to 64bit which would improve performance.
Before you can understand why the move to 64bit is not a big deal, you have to understand why it was a big deal in the early days.
The moves from 8 to 16 to 32 bit were all good things which allowed programmers to use larger numbers without jumping through hoops.  These migrations naturally brought better performance as now a programmer could directly reference a number that use to require several register loads and reads and stores in an array.

However, in the jump from 32bit to 64bit, it is the rare application which needs a number larger than 32bits.  Games certainly do not need them.  This is why the performance difference is not going to be that great.  Indeed, Microsoft's own compiler wiz has already stated most applications will run worse in native 64bit mode versus the 32bit counterpart.  It is pretty easy to understand why, when you know exactly how it all works.

Oh, and SSE2 is still slow on the AMD CPU as compared to even the Prescott.  Just saying.

EDIT:  Tha FarCry stuff is not an apples to apples comparison.  I have no doubt it runs better, but it is not due to being compiled as 64bit.  Of that, I can assure you.
EDIT2:  I just read what they did in FarCry.  CryTech should be shot.  This is a marketing patch if I ever saw one.  AMD must have shoved some money thier way as the *patch* does things only in the 64bit version, which can be done in the 32bit version but CryTek is not going to do it.
In other words, the optimizations done for the 64bit *patch* can be done for the 32bit version, they simply are choosing not to.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2005, 05:42:27 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Overlag

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #94 on: May 10, 2005, 05:59:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Overlag, I have never said it was a bad thing (you really are way to sensitive about this), and Cav, you misunderstood what I was saying, but ended up agreeing with me anyway. :)

.


man, im sensitive with everything lately... which probably makes me come across as a AMD/64bit fan boy however im having a s*** time in real life, and my only retreat being my pc isnt fun either anymore.

sorry about the way ive been replying in this (and many other) threads.

Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy


Oh, and SSE2 is still slow on the AMD CPU as compared to even the Prescott. Just saying.

EDIT: Tha FarCry stuff is not an apples to apples comparison. I have no doubt it runs better, but it is not due to being compiled as 64bit. Of that, I can assure you.
EDIT2: I just read what they did in FarCry. CryTech should be shot. This is a marketing patch if I ever saw one. AMD must have shoved some money thier way as the *patch* does things only in the 64bit version, which can be done in the 32bit version but CryTek is not going to do it.
In other words, the optimizations done for the 64bit *patch* can be done for the 32bit version, they simply are choosing not to.


Some AMD people would say because benchmarks are intel optimised for SSE2... however i think its more down to the fact these instructions are designed by intel for a INTEL. SSE2 makes better use of the long pipelines or something cant remember exactly. Basicaly SSE2 removes the performance loss from the long pipeline...?? Alittle bit more marketing there by amd. cos SSE2 isnt really worth it on there cpus?

SSE3 is kinda the same really, theres big hype over it being on the AMD cpu now, however i dont really see many benifits and its also got some commands that are gone because they only apply to Intels CPU design again.

And i didnt know that about farcry link on info? from the two sites ive looked at i didnt see it (but then i just flicked through). The screenshots look much more details in the 64 version, and theres a small performance improvement too.

some of the old things like MMX and 3dnow is apparently disabled in 64bit mode too, which is what HURTS old programs BADLY.

You also mentioned the registers on the a64 earlier and that thats what improves it not the 64bit itself. But i think theres 4x128bit registers on these cpus that are only enabled when in 64bit mode. not 100% certain on that though.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2005, 06:11:10 PM by Overlag »
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Offline AmRaaM

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #95 on: May 10, 2005, 07:49:37 PM »
never had a cooling prob with intel and I o.c. every comp at least 15%min. Have had probs with skatty ram even top brands randomly.

Offline Overlag

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #96 on: May 10, 2005, 08:00:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AmRaaM
never had a cooling prob with intel and I o.c. every comp at least 15%min. Have had probs with skatty ram even top brands randomly.


you probably have a northwood though? thats comparable to a A64.

Its prescotts that are the problem, they themselfs are very hot. But they ALSO due to there high power useage/draw cause ALL other voltage regulators (mosfets etc) to get VERY hot, and as skuzzy said earlier, hot enough to MELT foam that most testers rest MBs on......
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Offline Skuzzy

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2005, 07:16:40 AM »
Tha FarCry patch was funded by AMD Overlag.  It was designed to make the AMD64 look better.  I'd wait until some games not funded by AMD to come out before making any assessments as this is a pure marketing shot being fired.
This is how CryTek's business model has worked since day one.  Kudos to them for getting other companies to pay for thier development work.

The SSE[23] instruction sets are primarily used for streaming video/audio.  In this area, Intel still has a more efficient design than AMD.
There are only a few applications which are really coded to use this mechanism efficiently.  All high end video processing software make good use of it.

You guys are aware extra registers do not get used unless the application has programmed them to be used?  This is where the biggest gains are to be had.
In a native 64bit application, integers will now occupy twice the CPU cache space as before, which reduces the cache hits and can cause a slow down for an application (which is what Microsoft is talking about when they say most 64bit applications will run slower than the 32bit counterpart).  Why use 8 bytes of CPU cache to represent the number "1"?
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Offline Kev367th

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2005, 11:32:15 AM »
Skuzzy - RE: The Farcry patch.

Having just looked at the screenies for the 1st time -
No doubt it can be done it 32 bit.
At what cost to the framerate though?

I am assuming they are saying that the same detail with 32 bit would cause a big frame rate hit?
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2005, 12:36:56 PM »
There would be no impact to the 32bit version.  Most of the things, which are changed, are being done by the video card, not the CPU.
They cannot release a 32bit version of the patch or AMD would probably demand thier money back.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2005, 05:27:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
Try us, Skuzzy.

Even our political rants arent so bad.  

Come to the dark side!  Face MiniD's moderating!

I would not do that to your BB LePaul.  There are elements who would cause you no end of problems over there if I did, but thanks for the offer.

Oh, Kev about the DDR2 to DDR3 transition.  Anything can be designed to make that switch, but I doubt it will be done.  The reason DDR2 is so hot is due to the termination being external.  With DDR3, the termination is internal (where it should have been in the first place).
It definately would not be something automatic, but any motherboard manufacturer who did it, would be pushing it as a big marketing item.
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Offline Overlag

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2005, 05:33:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
There would be no impact to the 32bit version.  Most of the things, which are changed, are being done by the video card, not the CPU.
They cannot release a 32bit version of the patch or AMD would probably demand thier money back.


to be fair couldnt you say the same about intel offering SSE1/2/3.

things need a "push" to start changing to 64bit.. but the farcry makers had very little incentive to do so. Same with MS not "rushing" 64bit out.

also this 64bit patch does work on Intel CPU's.
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Offline LePaul

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2005, 05:33:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I would not do that to your BB LePaul.  There are elements who would cause you no end of problems over there if I did, but thanks for the offer.
 


Elements?  Bad ones?  Oooh...Ripsnort...oh dont worry about him! :p

Seriously...no worries.  Its up to you, whether you lurk/read or post...I'd double-dog-dare-ya...but don't think you'd take us up on it!

So..I'll have to resort to the ole standard.   CHICKEN!  :rofl

JK

Offline Skuzzy

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2005, 05:52:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
to be fair couldnt you say the same about intel offering SSE1/2/3.

things need a "push" to start changing to 64bit.. but the farcry makers had very little incentive to do so. Same with MS not "rushing" 64bit out.

also this 64bit patch does work on Intel CPU's.

Actually, the SSE family of instructions provide a specific purpose and are good at that purpose.  Not using them does degrade performance significantly for the operations they are designed for.
They do not work as well on AMD CPU's as they do on Intel CPU's, but hey are still better than not being used at all.

I know the 'patch' for FarCry will work on Intel.  The biggest issue I have with this so-called patch is how it is being marketed.  It is highly misleading, to the point of being an outright lie.
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Offline Skuzzy

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64 Bit Pentium 4... any future for gaming?
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2005, 05:56:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
Elements?  Bad ones?  Oooh...Ripsnort...oh dont worry about him! :p

Seriously...no worries.  Its up to you, whether you lurk/read or post...I'd double-dog-dare-ya...but don't think you'd take us up on it!

So..I'll have to resort to the ole standard.   CHICKEN!  :rofl

JK

Hehe,..you'll have to do better than that. :D
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