Time to unperk the Spit 14

[Kweassa]

The F4U-4 and the Spit14 should be unperked.

 Or, if they should need a light perk cost, then all of the late-war birds of comparable performance, should be perked at such prices as well.

[g00b]

The 4-hog is a dominating aircraft at all alts. Only the Tempest equals it.

g00b

[lasersailor184]

I don't know.  I could never get the F4u4 to perform anything special.

However the Spit 14, I'm almost untouchable.

[pellik]

The biggest problem with the f4u-4 and the spit14 lay in the perk system itself. Basically for the new to average pilots 50-100 perks represents a relatively large amount of flying, thus there are high risks involved in losing these planes. When you're focused on survival you just don't push the plane to it's limits, and never really learn to understand it. By the time a pilot becomes good enough to really push a plane like this he has usually developed preferences toward some other ride anyway, and isn't going to really make the switch to a perk ride for much more then an occasional laugh. Thus the true capabilities of a ride like the spit14 remain almost completely unseen. In the case of the spit14 pilots just arnt aggressive in the turnfights, and if they are they use the moves they would expect to work in a spitV or IX which don't offer the same success in the XIV. They just discover it doesn't do as well in a flat turn, and decide it sucks. Or they never turn it and decide it's not really any better then a G10. But just because nobody takes the time to understand it now doesn't mean it's not considerably better then the unperked set.

I can give you guys a few hints on the perk planes though, in case you want to invest a few thousand perks to learning em.

Tempest: Fast, yes. Powerful guns, obviously. What makes this plane so deadly is that when you cut throttle it bleeds E like nobody's business. Dropping E allows you to pull for shots that nobody expects you'll make, as well as getting inside on turnfights. I've gotten bounced many, many times while flying these, and it's incredibly rare that I can't out turn my attacker with a well timed throttle cut. Some more then decent pilots have discovered while attacking me that this plane gets inside of even spits and n1ks in the verticle and can finish the fight in a flash. If it doesn't get the shot it can disenguage very well.

F4U-4: When attacking this plane doesn't offer anything the F4U-1D doesn't. When defending this plane has more options then anything else I can think of. The extra engine power combined with flap deployment make it a suitable turner, although not quite capable of going at it with the likes of spitVs and hurri's. But if you keep all your opponents either faster or slower then you this plane can dominate. Pop flaps and use lag rolls on the deck to avoid guns and get the overshoot, then just follow em up as they try to get away using  the over-powered engine to hop above their LFR. If the 4-hog pilot times his reversals right you can overshoot this plane with 50mph extra speed, and be only co-E before you've gotten to the 600 mark, completely turning the tables.

Spit14: This plane is a unique stall fighter. You have to get in close, and use your awsome climb to stay just out of reach. Basically you run in and turn em a little pulling only medium Gs, but enough to keep em maneuvering. By the time they get guns on you they are usually too slow to follow a spiral climb, allowing you to reverse. It's terribly powerful in a 1v1 if the pilot is smart, but it takes a little too long to finish the fight. On the upside your usually quite a bit faster after your fight in this ride then in something like a tempest, which can be nice for dealing with the pickers that come along. The reason this justifys a perk is that this plan will work against EVERY other type of plane. When the same thing always works it takes the skill out of the game. It's not quite the reckless killer the Tempest is, but once people got the hang of it the whines would be far worse then those against the la7.
Aside from turning it's powerful climb lets you BnZ the horde with impunity. Just target the 109G10s first.

262: obviously, go fast and give a lot of lead for the potato guns.

152: It's porked. It was ok in AH1. Just write it off.

C-hog. It's pretty much like a hard to fly tempest. It doesn't go as fast, and you have to use flaps to get your inside turns, which prevents quick disenguaging. Trying to baby it to keep your perks makes you an easy target, as the hogs are really quite slow for E fighters. Unless you fly it in a CV battle you can expect people to target you early, as the F4U tag means C-hog more often then not.

Anyway, all these planes excel in one area in such a way as to leave the rest of the set behind. The high performance planes that arnt perked have limitations to help balance things out. The LA7 is chained to the deck, as it becomes easy prey above 10k. The 190D9 can't turn without losing all it's E. If it gets bounced and diving to the deck doesn't save it nothing will. And with the hatred most people feel for the dora they will dive with you more often then not.

-p.

[Badboy58]

IMHO the Spit 14 is over perked and should be drastically reduced or eliminated entirely. The simple fact that it is rarely observed in the MA proves that the masses dont feel its worth the price.

[Kweassa]

The 4-hog is a dominating aircraft at all alts. Only the Tempest equals it.

 Dominating in what way?

 When I look at the performance stats of how it's modelled in AH2 currently, the F4U-4 has nothing specific over any of our current perk-free late-war rides. Kingcat's superior AH stats comparison util is currently offline so I have to pull the quotes on acceleration and rolls out of my head, but the speed and climb can be compared by HTC official charts.


 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- vs the Fw190D-9 -

 Climb
* the Fw190D-9 outclimbs the F4U-4 upto 20k with WEP.
* the F4U-4 has a marginal climb advantage over the D-9 at military power... upto 10k. Over 10k and until 20k, the D-9 gains the edge in climb in military power

 Speed
* the Fw190D-9 and F4U-4 are comparable in speed upto 20k. Over 20k the F4U-4 gains the advantage

 Roll
* the Fw190D-9 outrolls the F4U-4 at all speeds upto 400mph
* over 400mph the F4U-4 gains the edge

 Maneuverability
* the F4U-4 is superior to the Fw190D-9

 Acceleration
* the Fw190D-9 and the F4U-4 are comparable in acceleration

 Armament
* 2x 13mms + 2x 20mms vs 6x.50s. Accuracy on the side of the 4hog, power on the side of the 190
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
- vs the Bf109G-10 -

 Climb
* the G-10 handily outclimbs the 4hog at all alts upto 30k(the HTC chart limit)

 Speed
* the 4hog is faster than the Bf109G-10 at deck, upto 2k or so. Over 2k to 25k the Bf109G-10 is faster with WEP. Over 25k the 4hog and G-10 becomes roughly comparable in speed.
* the 4hog and the G-10 is comparable in speed with military power, except the 4hog has transitional phases at certain altitude ranges where the superchargers are shifted to next gear, with a momentary drop in performance.

 Roll
* the 4hog outrolls the G-10 at all speeds

 Maneuverability
* the F4U-4 is somewhat superior to the Bf109G-10. The 4hog also has better use of flaps.

 Acceleration
* the Bf109G-10 outaccelerates the F4U-4 at all alts

 Armament
* 2x 13mms + 1x 30mms vs 6x.50s. Accuracy and efficiency on the side of the 4hog, power on the side of the 109
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- vs the P-51D -

 Climb
* the 4hog is superior at all alts

 Speed
* 4hog is faster under 10k.
* Between 10~17k, the P-51D is faster
* Over 18k, the 4hog is slightly faster

 Roll
* 4hog outrolls the P-51D at all alts

 Maneuverability
* the F4U-4 is somewhat superior to the P-51D

 Acceleration
* the 4hog outaccelerates the P-51D

 Armament
* same
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- vs the Spit14 -

 Climb
* the Spit14 handily outclimbs the 4hog at all alts

 Speed
* the Spit14 and 4hog is in a deadlock with very comparable speeds at all alts. At deck, the 4hog is vastly faster.

 Roll
* the roll performance is comparable at low speeds between 200~300mph. Over 300mph the 4hog is superior.

 Maneuverability
* the Spit14 is superior to the 4hog
* the 4hog has an edge in stability due to the use of combat flaps

 Acceleration
* the Spit14 outaccelerates the 4hog

 Armament
* 2x M2 50cals  + 2x Hispano 20mms vs 6x.50s. The Spit14 is superior
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- vs the La-7 -

 Climb
* the La-7 is vastly superior upto 10k
* above 10k the La-7 sharply declines in performance

 Speed
* the La-7 is superior upto 10k
* over 10k the F4U-4 gains a sharp advantage

 Roll
* the 4hog outrolls the La-7 at all alts

 Maneuverability
* The La-7 has the edge in pure turn performance
* However, the 4hog has an edge in maintaining stable sustained turns with tight radius, thanks to its efficient use of combat flaps

 Acceleration
* the La-7 is superior

 Armament
* 3x nose mounted 20mms vs 6x.50s. The La-7 has an edge in power and efficiency. The 4hog has the edge in general accuracy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- vs the Ta152H-1 -

* the F4U-4 is superior at everything upto 35k
* over 35k the Ta152H-1 has a speed advantage
* the Ta152H-1 can fly forever with internal fuel load

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




 So..

 How is it 'dominating' again?

 The only reason that it's so 'dominating' is that it is because it is generally used by people who are already superbly proficient in air combat even with a sucky plane. Superior pilot in an expensive plane with heightened sense of SA and more caution - how can it be not dominating?

 However, try fly and fight in any H2H room with loads of average and newbie guys, and the only thing it is really 'dominating' at, is in running away when things go bad, just like the Tempy in those rooms.

 Assuming simular skill levels of pilots, a fight between a contemporary 109 or 190 against a F4U-4, is much simular to a Fw190A-8 vs P-51B, 109G-6 vs P-51B fights. It is no more 'challenging' than fighting a La-7 at deck in a 109G-10. Overall advantage goes to the La-7, but still its a close match. And lord knows I've met enough La-7s at that alt in a 190 or a 109 - which btw, all of them are completely free planes.

 
- Thus, spake 'the Prince of Perks' -



ps) Previous incarnation of this thread can be referenced here:

 Please unperk the Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Dominating in what way?

 When I look at the performance stats of how it's modelled in AH2 currently, the F4U-4 has nothing specific over any of our current perk-free late-war rides. Kingcat's superior AH stats comparison util is currently offline so I have to pull the quotes on acceleration and rolls out of my head, but the speed and climb can be compared by HTC official charts.
 outclimbs the F4U-4 upto 20k with WEP.
* the F4U-4 has a marginal climb advantage over the D-9 at military power..

You're not paying attention....

Throw away the AH1 charts, they DO NOT pertain to the AH2 F4U-4 with its corrected FM.

In a climb, the F4U-4 leaves the Dora huffing and puffing behind. In pure acceleration, only the Tempest beats it, and only down low. Finally, it is the fastest prop fighter in the game.

My regards,

Widewing

[Kweassa]

In a climb, the F4U-4 leaves the Dora huffing and puffing behind. In pure acceleration, only the Tempest beats it, and only down low. Finally, it is the fastest prop fighter in the game.

 I stand corrected.

 Let's flip the climb advantages for some of the planes, and also flip the accel advantage to the 4hog in some comparisons. And let's say a good Bf109G-10 pilot faces a F4U-4 pilot.

 It still looks about as challenging as a Bf109G-6 vs a La-5FN.

[g00b]

Kweassa, have you actually flown the F4U-4 in the MA?

When I made the statement it is "dominating" I wasn't even thinking about what it's stats on paper were. I just know that of all the planes in the game, the F4U-4 and Tempest feel damn near invincable if you make no mistakes. The Spit14 is close, but does not have the sheer speed to get away from someone with a massive E advantage.

The Hog and the Temp both make me giddy with glee every time I point the nose down I see 500-550+

g00b

[Kweassa]

Not extensively, no. However, you're not making any sense g00b. Unless the AH2 F4U-4 has some mysterious source of power which dwarfs every other plane in some manner, it can't be dominating in any way, because it's not made that way.

 WW indicates there's a change of FM, which might contribute to the 4hog in some benevolent manner I could not foresee, however as long as other stats remain true the the charts, then the limitations, and implications are still clear.

 Listen to this;

 The La-7 has is even faster than the F4U-4. Granted, not inspiringly faster, but the La-7 still stands at 380mph TAS on deck, installed with a 10min WEP system, as compared to the F4U-4 with 5 mins of WEP recording 378mph TAS. The La-7 is fastest accelerating plane too, with the G-10 coming close.

 The La-7 is also equipped with a 3x B-20 cannons all mounted at the nose, a vastly superior gun mounting ideal for crossing snap shots, as compared to the wing-mounted .50s of the F4U-4 which is sensitive to convergence issues.

 The La-7 also maneuvers better, although the advantage of really tough low-speed maneuvering goes to the F4U-4 thanks to its flaps.

 The La-7 climbs faster than the F4U-4 too. Granted, it becomes different over 10k. But fights have a tendency of going downwards, not upwards. If the La at some point decides to run, the F4U-4 is not gonna catch it, since the speeds are roughly the same, unless it dives after it immediately. To where? Down to the deck.
 
 So what's really so much 'superior' about the F4U-4 as a MA fighter plane, when compared to a La-7? If 'sheer speed' is the only thing that supports the dominance of the F4U-4 in the MA, then curiously enough, that justifies the claims that the La-7 will also be sheerly dominant in the MA.

 Every veteran makes it a habit of taking a jab at the La-7 as an uninspiring plane, when in reality, by all accounts, it could be just as much 'dominating' as the F4U-4 if it, under the condition you've set, "does not make a mistake". But ofcourse, the MA is full of people making all kinds of mistakes. That's why the La-7 is uninspiring - all sorts of average guys and newbies fly it. If someone like Fariz takes a spin in it, it is quite fearsome and sometimes frustratingly powerful.

 So;


 If the F4U-4 and/or the Spit14 is unleashed;

a) Will it become a plane that is so much powerful over the others that the 90% of MA comprised of n00bs and average guys like me will be sorely dependant on its performance, and nobody is gonna shoot us sucky pilots down?

b) Or, just as the La-7 currently is, will it be just another superplane with an average pilot flying it, crashing and burning, augering, stalling out, miserably shot down by midwar planes due to all sorts of mistakes..?


 My bets on b).

 ALL of our currently perk-free latewar birds are "damn near invincable if you make no mistakes".

 Except the average MA folk always make mistakes. And they are the people who will be flying the F4U-4s or Spit14 en masse, when it becomes free. Just as much as they are the same people who fly the La-7 en masse, because it is currently free.

[Dead Man Flying]

Kweassa, can the La7 take off from land and sea bases, use droptanks to extend range, or sling ordnance of any type underneath it?  Add in the fact that the F4U-4 is basically as fast, climbs like a rocket, and enjoys some of the best low speed handling in the entire game... plus a high speed air brake should one require it.  In addition, it handles capably at very high speed as well.

It's a monster, pure and simple.  It, along with the Tempest and 262, deserves perking more than any other planes in the game.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by jodgi
If the spit14 was unperked, I would fly it almost exlusively.

same here

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Kweassa, can the La7 take off from land and sea bases, use droptanks to extend range, or sling ordnance of any type underneath it?  Add in the fact that the F4U-4 is basically as fast, climbs like a rocket, and enjoys some of the best low speed handling in the entire game... plus a high speed air brake should one require it.  In addition, it handles capably at very high speed as well.

It's a monster, pure and simple.  It, along with the Tempest and 262, deserves perking more than any other planes in the game.

-- Todd/Leviathn

exactly

[SirLoin]

i think what kweesa is saying... take the two planes to the DA..equal pilots the LA7 should win every time.

i think that too.

[Kweassa]

I know what you're catching on to here Levi, and I fully understand and agree with it - there's more to planes than just about pure A2A performance. That's why the Chog was perked.

 But the Chog is not the only plane that effects gameplay in terms of something else than just A2A performance.

 How about the P-51D? Or the P-38L?

 The P-38L is a bit slower than the other dragster planes, but in a pure A2A sense some pilots might prefer it over the F4U-4 as a superior dogfighter. Under the premise we are (or seem to be) sharing, if the MA is more than just about A2A, then the P-38L surely needs some kind of perk in the fact that it is the fastest climbing plane that can strap on a 2,000lbs load + 10x HVAR configuration.

 How about the P-51D? A fighter plane that has the longest range on internal fuel load for a perk-free plane(only the Ta152 flies longer). It has some key disadvantages to the F4U-4 but it's still damn fast. It also carriers 2,000lbs load + 6x HVARS.

 The P-51D can take off from land bases, use droptanks to extend range, or sling ordnance of any type underneath it. The P-51D is damn fast too, some great low-speed stability typical of USAAF planes wielding flaps, and a combat flap setting that can be used upto 400mph IAS. In addition, it handles capably at very high speed as well.

 The only things the F4U-4 can do which the P-51D cannot, is climb, accelerate, take off from carriers, and perhaps fly a bit faster at some alt ranges. So, are those three~four advantages the F4U-4 wields over the P-51D really worth 50 perks?

It's a monster, pure and simple. It, along with the Tempest and 262, deserves perking more than any other planes in the game.

 I agree.

 Except, some of the other 'monsters' aren't perked in anyway. There are planes with great multi-purpose capabilities that is very fast and also competitive as a MA fighter - none of them are perked. So, why should the F4U-4 be the only multi-purpose late war plane that is SO HEAVILY perked?

 
 So, basically I agree that it needs to be perked.

 But there's no reason it should be perked at such a high price, and if it is perked under the reasons given above, by the same principle all of the other late war planes should be perked at varying prices.

 But since, nobody seems to want the late-war planes in the MA perked, then by all rights the Spit14, F4U-4, and Ta152H-1 also should be unperked, or at least DRASTICALLY lowered in prices - 20 points tops.