Author Topic: A few religious question for catholics.  (Read 11405 times)

Offline Toad

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #225 on: May 07, 2005, 08:55:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE

Nothing wrong with the word, Toad.


Exactly what I mean by "oh-so-innocent".

Yeah, right... you used cult in a purely scientific, academic manner. You certainly didn't mean to advance any negative implication.

You should understand that this is one of your traits that puts everyone's back up.

But then... butter wouldn't melt in your mouth, would it?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #226 on: May 07, 2005, 09:05:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Exactly what I mean by "oh-so-innocent".

Yeah, right... you used cult in a purely scientific, academic manner. You certainly didn't mean to advance any negative implication.

You should understand that this is one of your traits that puts everyone's back up.

But then... butter wouldn't melt in your mouth, would it?


Toad, I have said that I think that a lot of the rites in the Catholic religion are not ever mentoned in the bible.

I have been and still am, 100% honestly interested in hearing Catholics reasoning for some of these things. I have been this way all my life.

I have had these discussions and asked these same questions with some of my best friends, who are Catholic. One friend had a Priest friend, Father Allen, stay with us back when we where roomates. Had the discussion with him.

I know that I do not always state things in the most user friendly manner, but I assure you that when I argue ( or try too) on this bbs, that I am very sincere. When I stay in a thread for any length of time, I can assure you it's because I genuinly believe my what I am saying and am not just trolling or trying to insult people.

Offline WMLute

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #227 on: May 07, 2005, 09:15:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Lookie there.. love thy neighbor as thyself FULFILLS the law.


Always found this interesting.

"Every religion emphasizes human improvement, love, respect for others, sharing other people's suffering. On these lines every religion had more or less the same viewpoint and the same goal."
--The Dalai Lama


Bahá'í World Faith:
   "Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
 "And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf


Brahmanism:
"This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517


 Buddhism:  
"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353  
 Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18


Confucianism:  
"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
 "Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
 "Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4


Ancient Egyptian:
"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written.  


Hinduism:  
"One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4  
 "This is the sum of the Dharma [duty]: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517
 

 Humanism:
"(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
 "(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4
 "Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3

 
 Islam:
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5


 Jainism:  
"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.  
 "In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
 "A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33
 

 Judaism:   "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18  
 "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
 "And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6
 

 Native American Spirituality:  
"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
 "All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk

 
 Roman Pagan Religion:
"The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."


 Shinto:  
"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"


 Sikhism:  
Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib  
 "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
 "No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

 
 Sufism:
"The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.


 Taoism:  
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.  
 "The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49  

 
 Unitarian:
 "We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles.  


 Wicca:
"An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede


 Yoruba: (Nigeria):
"One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."


 Zoroastrianism:  
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
 "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."  Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

Some philosophers' statements are:
 Epictetus:
"What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)

 Plato:
 "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)


 Socrates:
 "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)


 Seneca:
"Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)




"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; As I have loved you, that ye also love one another.  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." [Gospel of John, King James Bible version].

Based on the above quote, if you lived by the above standard, you'd also be a Christian, regardless of whatever else you were.

Cool.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 09:19:58 PM by WMLute »
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Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #228 on: May 07, 2005, 09:21:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


If you can't see the inconsistency in Nuke's position, I can't help you.

[/B]


I have been 100% consistant. I believe that nobody will go to heaven without accepting that Jesus Christ is their savior.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #229 on: May 07, 2005, 09:24:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Toad, I have said that I think that a lot of the rites in the Catholic religion are not ever mentoned in the bible.
[/b]

So? A lot of the things in the various Protestant religions.. ALL of which split off from Catholicism as Wotan pointed out, are not in the Bible either.

Further, as many have pointed out, all of the tales/stories/precepts/lessons/parables of/by Jesus were not included in the Bible from the very first version. The life of Jesus was "edited" heavily in the very first edition of the bible.

So, we obviously have an incomplete bible, don't we?

Therefore, why would you give a fig what rites the Catholics include or choose not to include?

The bottom line is they believe in Jesus Christ and that salvation is through him in word and deed.

In short, they're Christians just like you.

So  your interest is or should be of no importance to you unless you are considering a return to Catholicism.


Beyond that, I am not a Muslim but I have this sneaking suspicion that they worship their God under many of the same tenets we worship our God. I suspect this is not coincidence.

As I pointed out above, I also suspect that, if God chose to do so, he could manifest himself to his Muslim children in a manner different than he manifests himself to his Christian children......... yet he would be the same ONE God that rules over the heavens and the earth.  

So you know what? As a result, I don't judge Muslims, Buddhists, Druids, Protestants, etc. lest I be judged in the same manner. I don't know God's plan for dealing with other people that he may or may not have decided to approach in a totally different manner.

Quote
Father Allen, stay with us back when we where roomates. Had the discussion with him.
[/b]

Apparently you've been asking the same questions all your life. I suspect you're getting pretty much the same answers all the time, none of which satisfy you. Why is that?

You talked directly to a Padre (although I've met some of them that couldn't pour pee out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel when it came to explaining their religion in a coherent manner...that group is just like every other group. Protestants included.) and he couldn't answer you? Or you couldn't accept his answers?

Quote
I know that I do not always state things in the most user friendly manner
[/b]


Indeed, sir, you do not. In fact, I would classify that as an understatment. I believe that is why you got the reaction you got with this thread.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 09:26:14 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #230 on: May 07, 2005, 09:31:43 PM »
Toad, the bible, in my opinion, is the word of God. No church and no religion's rites outside what is validated by the bible interest me.

The bible is not incomplete. The bible is not the story of any church and it's traditions, it's the word of God.

The reason I ask and care about some of the things Catholics do as rites, is that I feel it is a distraction away from the word of God. Other religions do the same thing.......kiss snakes and drink poison.....it's all a distraction and deviation from the teachings and the word in the bible.

I don't judge anyone either, that's Gods job.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #231 on: May 07, 2005, 09:35:30 PM »
But.. .but... .Lute... only ONE of those was from the Bible!!!


;)

Thanks Lute. Nicely done. Is there a page of that somewhere or did you dredge them all up individually.

Also, thanks for the link to your church. Seems you folks are "livin' it".
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #232 on: May 07, 2005, 09:36:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
I have been 100% consistant. I believe that nobody will go to heaven without accepting that Jesus Christ is their savior.


How tiresome.

EXCEPT that you "don't know" if those who have never, ever heard of Jesus will or will not get in.

So you mock your own absolutist statement. You mock yourself.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #233 on: May 07, 2005, 09:39:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
How tiresome.

EXCEPT that you "don't know" if those who have never, ever heard of Jesus will or will not get in.

So you mock your own absolutist statement. You mock yourself.


Try to really understand this. I accept as 100% fact that nobody will go to heaven, unless they accept Jesus.

Is that understood? Nobody, in my belief, will get into heaven without accepting Jesus as savior. Pretty much a solid answer if you ask me.

Offline WMLute

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #234 on: May 07, 2005, 09:40:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
But.. .but... .Lute... only ONE of those was from the Bible!!!


;)

Thanks Lute. Nicely done. Is there a page of that somewhere or did you dredge them all up individually.

Also, thanks for the link to your church. Seems you folks are "livin' it".


sadly, I googled that one.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

BUT in the distant past, I created a slightly longer list by hand.  This was pre-internet days.  Always found it interesting.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Torque

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #235 on: May 07, 2005, 09:42:55 PM »
off topic, Toad google " irshad manji pbs "

"The Trouble with Islam Today"

i think you'll get a kick outta it

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #236 on: May 07, 2005, 09:46:19 PM »
Toad, you never answered my question: do you believe that anyone can go to heaven if they reject Jesus as savior?

Maybe I'll ask you this same question for the next five pages.

Take you for instance, having been exposed to the word and Jesus. If you live a a good life, do the will of God and love your neighbor, can you reject Jesus as your Savior and still go to heaven?

Offline Toad

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A few religious question for catholics.
« Reply #237 on: May 07, 2005, 09:49:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Toad, the bible, in my opinion, is the word of God. No church and no religion's rites outside what is validated by the bible interest me.
[/b]

Then why have you been buggin' the shirt out of Catholics your whole life? The rites are of no interest to you. Poor Father Allen.

Quote
The bible is not incomplete. The bible is not the story of any church and it's traditions, it's the word of God.
[/b]

Unfortunately for you Nuke, the Bible has a history. It was written by men and it was translated... many different times by men.

Quote
30 - 40 AD - Sayings of Jesus
Some bible scholars believe the sayings of Jesus were collected during this period and that parts of this document, called the "Q" source by scholars, underlie the gospels of both Matthew and Luke.

59 AD - Paul's Letters
Most of the apostle Paul's letters were in circulation by this date, and they are the first unified Christian writings that have come down to us today.


367 AD -  Earliest New Testament List
The earliest surviving list of books exactly matching the modern New Testament Canon dates from 367 AD



So you see Nuke, from say 30AD until 367AD there WAS no "standardized" bible. The one you read was compiled from many sources, taking bits and pieces of each. Some pieces were the same, some were not. Not all were included.

300+ years of various versions of God's Word. The years closest in time to when Jesus acutally lived.

Yet you're certain that NOTHING was left out. By fallible men that wrote it.

Quote
The reason I ask and care about some of the things Catholics do as rites, is that I feel it is a distraction away from the word of God.
[/b]

Why ever would it distract YOU? You don't go to any church at all.

It is undeniable that they are preaching the word of God. The Catholic Bible is so similar to the KJV that it's not really worth discussing the differences. So they are complying with Jesus' instructions to spread the word.

Why don't you quit worrying about them and let Jesus do the judging?

 
Quote
I don't judge anyone either, that's Gods job.



I'm tempted to use the rolleyes thingie.

You judge the Catholics, saying their rites distract from the Word of God.

You immediately say you don't judge people.

You inconsistencies are amazingly regular. They cause me ponder whether you ever read what you write or if you really are that blind to yourself.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 09:53:28 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #238 on: May 07, 2005, 09:51:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Toad, you never answered my question: do you believe that anyone can go to heaven if they reject Jesus as savior?

Maybe I'll ask you this same question for the next five pages.

 


You won't have to ask me for the next five pages, because I won't crawfish and try to hide an obvious inconsistency by saying "waaahh! No fair!! I don't know!"

The answer to your question is no.

See how easy it is? Yes or No.

Give it a try.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #239 on: May 07, 2005, 09:52:13 PM »
LOL Toad, saying I believe that the rites distract from the bible is not judging the Cathlics, that's called expressing an opinon.