Author Topic: Why did God create humans?  (Read 3419 times)

Offline bustr

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #150 on: May 12, 2005, 06:09:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
well, I know that's what you keep saying, but I am asking if the experiment is regarded as proof that matter can be created.


Nothing meaning vacume or the void has to be rethought. Based on the article below, energy from a reaction was used to force particles to appear. Matter is after all a state of energy.

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3 July 2003
Understanding More About "Nothing"

 Measurements taken using Jefferson Lab's CEBAF Large Acceptance Spectrometer (CLAS) are telling us more about how matter is produced from "nothing," that is, the vacuum. Using the CLAS in Hall B, Daniel S. Carman of Ohio University and nearly 150 members of the CLAS Collaboration studied the spin transfer from a polarized electron beam to a produced Lambda particle. Their results were recently published in Physical Review Letters.

The CLAS experimenters collided JLab's polarized electron beam into a proton target, producing a polarized Lambda (?0) and a kaon (K ). Physicists have long known that matter and anti-matter can be created when energetic particles strike one another. The new particles are not really created from "nothing." They are created from the available kinetic energy of the colliding particles. Visualize a bowling ball hitting its rack of 10 pins so hard that the 10 pins turn into 11 normal pins and one "anti-pin." Energy is conserved and so is matter; that's why a new anti-matter particle is created each time a matter particle is created.

In a simple quark model of the reaction dynamics, a circularly polarized virtual photon strikes an oppositely polarized up quark inside the proton . The spin of the struck quark flips in direction and the quark recoils from its neighbors, stretching a flux-tube of gluonic matter between them. When the stored energy in the flux-tube is sufficient, the tube is "broken" by production of a strange quark-antiquark pair. Using this simple picture, the researchers could explain the angular dependence of the Lambda polarization if the quark pair was produced with the spins in opposite directions, or anti-aligned.

These anti-aligned spins could throw theorists into a spin. According to the popular triplet-P-zero (3P0) model, a quark-antiquark pair is produced with vacuum quantum numbers, and that means their spins should be aligned. These results imply that the 3P0 model may not be as widely applicable as was thought.

Winston Roberts, a theorist at Jefferson Lab and associate professor of physics at Old Dominion University, finds the CLAS measurement very interesting. "If they are right, it means we have to rethink what we thought we understood about our models for baryon decays," he says. "The CLAS results may also be saying something about what we understand of baryons themselves -- our knowledge of how to describe scattering processes such as the one they measure, or even that there may be oddities, peculiarities, dare I say 'strangeness,' in the way strange quark-antiquark pairs are produced."

The experimenters expect further reaction from theorists. "Polarized Lambda production is obviously sensitive to the spin-dynamics of quark-pair creation," says Mac Mestayer, a JLab staff scientist, and one of the lead authors on the paper. "We eagerly await confirmation, or refutation, of the conclusions of our simple model by realistic theoretical calculations."

Meanwhile, Carman adds, the researchers are planning further experiments. "Our group is continuing this exciting research by extending our arguments to test our picture of the dynamics in different reactions."

These results show that we have much still to learn about the basic structure of the vacuum. One hundred years ago the vacuum was thought to consist of an "ether" through which light propagated as waves. Albert Michelson, Edward Morley, Albert Einstein and others disproved this hypothesis and the vacuum became an empty void. Twentieth century quantum field theories have now filled this once-empty space with virtual particles. It's now obvious that a vacuum is not the cold, empty place it was once thought to be. JLab physicists and researchers are studying the spin of the produced quarks in hopes of understanding the vacuum better, as well as the matter that populates it.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline NUKE

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #151 on: May 12, 2005, 06:16:04 PM »
Thanks bustr.

I guess the experiment verified that engery can be converted to matter, but that the conservation of matter and energy is constant.

Therefore, matter has not been proven to have been created from nothing.

Offline Gixer

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #152 on: May 12, 2005, 06:20:49 PM »
Quite amusing watching you guys discuss this.


...-Gixer

Offline NUKE

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #153 on: May 12, 2005, 06:27:02 PM »
Mr arrogant New Zealander has arrived to offer his arrogance, and nothing else. How refreshing.

Offline bustr

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #154 on: May 12, 2005, 06:42:06 PM »
None of this answers the question of the original origion of energy and matter. This experiment holds suggestions that matter came after energy. But then what is energy and from wence it came? Proving it with the scientific method is like attempting to get from point A to point B by traversing half the distance between and half the remaining distance each time you move.

As science traverses the half distances with each discovery, our abillity to mold the universe will become more god like with each step. But then will we with our science traverse the last full distance and be god, able to create "life" from the voids fabric with a spirit in our own image?

If you say yes to this scientific ability possibly happening in the future at some point, you make the same leap of faith and intuition that is made by those who belive god created the universe. We cannot prove either but with our faith in our beleif.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Simaril

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Re: Re: Re: Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #155 on: May 12, 2005, 06:42:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Origins by  their very nature can be examined only by inference; no matter how things started, no  one was there to see it (if you a priori leave a god out of the equation).

SO proof isnt really the appropriate standard.

However, a question: entropy, a basic and unchallengeable principle of physics, shows that closed systems move from states of higher energy and complexity to lower states of both.

Assuming that the known universe is a closed system, without outside interference, how does life tehn move from lower states of complexity containing smaller reserves of organized energy to higher states of each?

Just askin



Gixer responds:

Quote
Originally posted by Gixer

How many years ago was God suppose to of created man anyway? Of course assuming we are talking about "the" God as all other gods don't exist in their eyes.  





Does this seem...ummm...an unusual debate technique?


Q: explain origins in light of entropy?

A: What time is it, anyway?

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Offline bustr

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #156 on: May 12, 2005, 06:50:02 PM »
Possibly he has defined a loose rule of biological life in this universe. As long as the cells are alive performing their function, they aspire to a higher level of energy.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline NUKE

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2005, 06:50:12 PM »
bustr, I fond it funny that some people look down their noses at people who believe that God created everything, then go right ahead and believe science has a more logical explanation. It doesn't.

It comes down to two possible choices

1. matter/energy always existed
2. matter/engery was created from nothing.


Note I added energy because science considers the sum of energy and matter a constant and fixed in value. Niether can be created or destroyed, they can only change states...with the total sum always constant.

So, how are they going to explain the existence of matter?

It is in no way less logical to speculate that God created all matter than it is for science to say it was created from nothing, or just always existed.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 06:53:00 PM by NUKE »

Offline bustr

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #158 on: May 12, 2005, 07:21:26 PM »
Science gives them control over the out come here and now for the length of their life span.

Religion requires faith that the outcome will be what the dogma promises.

I don't see either as a very easy path to follow because the end comes to both camps just the same. Then it's over..................?

Origion of the Universe.........

Sience - Our ego is satisfied by saying give me enough time and research I will find the answer. A proactive state of searching for the beginning.

Religion - I beleive in the begining God created it. Our ego has problems with this and is why we have to work at faith all the time. Religion talks about miricles. Possibly these are like the realtime results science can generate to satisfy the ego here and now. Not being a repeatable phenominon, science's ego is not amused.

I wish both camps would respect each other a tad bit more. Neither really has the answer except as blind faith in the experience. I find that faith in both camps to be their true strength.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Gixer

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #159 on: May 12, 2005, 09:23:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Gixer responds: Does this seem...ummm...an unusual debate technique?
 



Not a debate I was just asking what should be a simple question for any christian to answer.


...-Gixer

Offline NUKE

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #160 on: May 12, 2005, 09:26:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
Not a debate I was just asking what should be a simple question for any christian to answer.


...-Gixer


The bible doesn't say how many years ago God created man.

Offline Gixer

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #161 on: May 12, 2005, 09:34:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The bible doesn't say how many years ago God created man.



What not even within a few thousand years or so? That's pretty weak isn't it?


...-Gixer

Offline NUKE

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #162 on: May 12, 2005, 09:39:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
What not even within a few thousand years or so? That's pretty weak isn't it?


...-Gixer


I don't get it, what's weak about it? It's has no bearing on the message of God's word.

Offline Elfie

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #163 on: May 12, 2005, 09:42:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
More rediculous is your expectation of people to follow those rules. Maybe you should visit Sao Paulo and see for yourself  the effects that the Popes rule is having on the people there.

And yes it's easy to blame the Pope for 100,000's AIDS victims and history will record it as his bigges mistake.


...-Gixer


The Bible says adultery (extra-marital sex) and fornication (sex outside wedlock) is wrong. The Pope reiterates those things. Is it the Pope's fault if people disregard what he and the Bible say? No. It's the fault of the people who didnt listen.

Blaming the Pope for people who choose to have sex outside the marriage bed is totally rediculous. You are taking just one point of the entire subject (no contraception) and using that to justify blaming ONE man for the mistakes of hundreds of thousands of other people.

The Pope is just the leader of the Catholic church, he doesnt "rule" anyone.


*edit* Blaming the Pope just puts responsiblity for ones own actions somewhere other than where it belongs......on ones own shoulders.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 09:48:57 PM by Elfie »
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Offline midnight Target

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Why did God creat humans?
« Reply #164 on: May 12, 2005, 10:10:46 PM »
Oh look! someone played the entropy card...

move back five spaces and google for your punishment.

:aok