200 Christian Homes Burned in Pakistan

[Furball]

Thanks seagoon!

But how does the bible allow for different race if adam and eve were the first humans created by god? (please excuse my naivety!)

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Furball
Thanks seagoon!

But how does the bible allow for different race if adam and eve were the first humans created by god? (please excuse my naivety!)

Hi Furball,

No excuse necessary.

I'm going to be very frank here, it doesn't take much brain power to be a specialist as you can focus on certain areas and avoid other areas where you are weaker. To be a really competent generalist requires a level of brilliance I just don't have, so I have always been a specialist and have focused in particular on theology, philosophy, other sects and religions, and history. This means that I have necessarily neglected certain areas like creation science and apologetics leaving them to better minds than mine.

So with the caveat above, here is my understanding of the origin of the races. First off, race is not a product of   Darwinian evolution, which presupposes that species progress from simple to complex. This is especially important because during the 19th and early 20th centuries racists of various materialist philosophies attempted to use a Darwinian explanation to prove that Whites are superior to most non-whites (i.e. whites are more highly evolved that negroes and mongoloids, etc.) in fact even secular science today believes that the differences between the races are actually the result of recombinations of genes extant in all people. We are all the same species, Homo Sapiens and we are all so closely related that interbreeding is not a problem.

So where did the differences come from if (as much DNA evidence suggests) we all came from one pair of humans - Adam and Eve?

Well we know that the greatest separator amongst the races is actually language, and the Bible tells us that the difference of language was a result of God's direct imposition in Genesis 11. God's original command was to multiply and be fruitful and cover the earth, mankind sinfully refused to do that, preferring instead to form one massive supercity at Babel in the land of Shinar thus violating God's command. Thus God purposely "confused" the various languages (hence the name "Babel" which is similar to the Hebrew balal meaning confuse.)

From this separation of languages, separate people groups developed and certain separate racial features began to develop due to the separation of those races. A sort of "E Unum Pluribus" if you will.

- SEAGOON

[Lizking]

I was only able to read a line or 2 before the edit.

[Gixer]

Seagoon,

Do you ever talk about the Crusades which turned into campaigns of  slaughter, rape, and pillage? How many houses do you think would of be burned in those times?


...-Gixer

[Seagoon]

Hello Gixer,

Originally posted by Gixer
Seagoon,

Do you ever talk about the Crusades which turned into campaigns of  slaughter, rape, and pillage? How many houses do you think would of be burned in those times?


...-Gixer

Ok, I know I shouldn't be shocked or even mildly amazed that the overall response to 200 families being burned out of their homes by Muslim mobs, because an illiterate man was taking out the trash is "They deserved it because... uh... The Crusades!" but I am.

Gixer, these are people at the very lowest point on the societal scale in Pakistan. They live under Dhimmitude as third class citizens (Muslim convicts have more rights under Sharia law) and  whatever their education or ability they have to take the very worst jobs. They do not riot, they do not burn down the local Mosque, they don't join Al Qaeda, and they don't take part in the constant Hindu/Muslim/Sikh quarrel that has rent that area since the time of the Mughals.  

What part did they or any of the other Christians currently living as savagely oppressed people in Muslim lands play in the Crusades exactly?

Also, while you are at it,  could you explain how "the Crusades" justify arson, terrorism, murder, and Jihad? Did the Londoners whose bodies are still stuck in that tunnel "deserve it" because of the Crusades?

You want my take on the Crusades? I've given it multiple times, they were theologically indefensible, and exactly the kind of vengeful reaction to violence that Christ and the Apostles forbade. They also lasted about 200 years and ended almost a millenia ago. The Christian world has repudiated them again, and again, and again. I would challenge you to find you to find one major Christian leader who endorses them or their Philosophy.

The Jihad however began in 611 under the command of Muhammad (see the timeline near the beginning of this post)  and is still continuing. Finding endorsements for continuing the violent Jihad amongst leaders in the Muslim world isn't exactly difficult, for instance the recently elected President of Iran said following his election in June of this year:

"Thanks to the blood of the martyrs, a new Islamic revolution has arisen and the Islamic revolution of 1384 [the current Iranian year] will, if Allah wills, cut off the roots of injustice in the world. The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.”

"Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

So Gixer, you are free to despise the Dhimmis of Pakistan and blame them for the Crusades if you wish, but frankly I think the problem lies not in the ideology of the illiterate trash collectors but with their home burning neighbors.

- SEAGOON

[Raider179]

1)"Acording to Voice of the Martyrs, which aids persecuted Christians around the world"

No bias on their part I am sure.

2) I have searched for this article or any info on other sites. The only link I find for it that is legit is this one from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4634813.stm

3)It says nothing about 200 houses being burned. I only find that on the "Christian News" sites.

4)If you live in pakistan and you are christian, you might not be the brightest guy on the block.

5)Your"Independent confirmation link"provides no confirmation on 200 houses being burned. Only a Hindu Temple. It does say this however.

"child spotted Yousaf Masih burning verses from the Quran. He was in fact just burning garbage. The boy raised an alarm, and the swift and ruthless reaction by extremists of the locality led to the ransacking of a Hindu temple on the same night (June 28) by a angry mob”

5)Race cannot be determined through genetics(at least not yet)  Skin color follows a clinal distribution. The darkest are found in bright, tropical regions and lightest are far north or south where there is much less sunlight. Primary factor in skin color is melanin. Melanin is produced by melanocytes which all humans have. The different colors in race are caused by different levels of productions of these cells.

Clinal distribution = Frequency change of a particular trait as you move geographically from one point to another.

The sickle-cell anemia gene also follow clinal distribution. It is common in area's of high incidence's of malaria, particularly West Africa, India and the Middle East.

Cultural Anthropology
Nanda & Warms 2004

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Raider179


SNIP


4)If you live in pakistan and you are christian, you might not be the brightest guy on the block.


SNIP


5)Race cannot be determined through genetics(at least not yet)  Skin color follows a clinal distribution. The darkest are found in bright, tropical regions and lightest are far north or south where there is much less sunlight. Primary factor in skin color is melanin. Melanin is produced by melanocytes which all humans have. The different colors in race are caused by different levels of productions of these cells.

Clinal distribution = Frequency change of a particular trait as you move geographically from one point to another.

The sickle-cell anemia gene also follow clinal distribution. It is common in area's of high incidence's of malaria, particularly West Africa, India and the Middle East.

Cultural Anthropology
Nanda & Warms 2004 [/B]

Excuse me? Because you live in a place where you're beliefs make you a minority, this somehow means you are not bright????

How about the democracy movement in Beijing? College students, the peak of the educational system, bucking the established order out of hope and aspiration -- but they must not have been bright either, eh?

Or maybe they're jsut committed to their beliefs in a way we satiated, lazy westerners have long forgotten.

Some things really are worth dying for...




And as to your point about race -- what we refer to as "race" has never been  determined by genetic features beyond outside appearance. In the sense of phenotype, the physically apparent differences between individuals, all "racial" characteristics are genetically determined. However, if one refers to innate qualities, of capacityy or intelligence, there is no genetic difference between races.

ANd we ought to acknowledge that the concept of race is so slippery that it has little meaning. In our dark past US southern racists would label people for a few fractions of minority heritage-- not enough to make any functional difference fro a genetica standpoint -- and Hitler twisted "race" to apply to non-racial national heritage. (For example, German nationals from the east might have had significant Slavic heritage but were considered pure german, while others with more german blood were condemned.)



Lastly, clinal distibutions can be created by trait selection -- fair skinned irish looking peoples living in Africa would be less likely to florish, so there would gradually be fewer of them. The sickle cell trait may have genetically emerged all over --  but there was a selective advantage in malarial areas, becasue it provides realtive resistance to the effects of malaria. (If someone has 2 sickle cell genes, they have the disorder -- and die. But having one gene, called the Trait, gives an advantage in survival, so trait carrying people would be more likely to live than non trait carrying people.)

This says nothing about origins either way.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Raider179

SNIP
1)"Acording to Voice of the Martyrs, which aids persecuted Christians around the world"

No bias on their part I am sure.

2) I have searched for this article or any info on other sites. The only link I find for it that is legit is this one from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4634813.stm


SNIP

OK, you've documented a difference. Now we need to determine which "side" has messed up their reporting. Is it the religious press, which cares about persecution of co-religionists, or the mainstream press?

Neither of us really knows. But being interested in a report doesnt mean you cant be objective about it. For example, if the Ice Queen were grounded from future air shows, only the air enthusiast press would care enough  to make note. Would the absence of CNN reportage mean it wasnt true? Of course not.



Now, in fairness, lets also note that the "religious" press was up in arms about the slave trade in Sudan for literally YEARS before the rest of the world noticed. Even now the food situation in Darfor gets all the attention. Yet, the relligious press noticed precisely BECAUSE they had a particular interest that the mainstream put on a lower priority.

 DOn't take the fact that no one else reported all this and assume that the extra deatail in the VOice of  the Martyrs came by distortion. I mean, after all, if their mission is explicitly to be a "voice" for the downtrodden, most others arent noticiing anyway...

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Simaril
Excuse me? Because you live in a place where you're beliefs make you a minority, this somehow means you are not bright????

How about the democracy movement in Beijing? College students, the peak of the educational system, bucking the established order out of hope and aspiration -- but they must not have been bright either, eh?

Or maybe they're jsut committed to their beliefs in a way we satiated, lazy westerners have long forgotten.

Some things really are worth dying for...




And as to your point about race -- what we refer to as "race" has never been  determined by genetic features beyond outside appearance. In the sense of phenotype, the physically apparent differences between individuals, all "racial" characteristics are genetically determined. However, if one refers to innate qualities, of capacityy or intelligence, there is no genetic difference between races.


Lastly, clinal distibutions can be created by trait selection -- fair skinned irish looking peoples living in Africa would be less likely to florish, so there would gradually be fewer of them. The sickle cell trait may have genetically emerged all over --  but there was a selective advantage in malarial areas, becasue it provides realtive resistance to the effects of malaria. (If someone has 2 sickle cell genes, they have the disorder -- and die. But having one gene, called the Trait, gives an advantage in survival, so trait carrying people would be more likely to live than non trait carrying people.)

This says nothing about origins either way.

1)Comparing democracy or College students to Religion just doesnt hold any water for a debate in my book.

2)I have seen pictures of Pakistan and trust me it's not worth dying for to live there. lol

3) I dont think you understood what I was saying about race. There were no "fair skinned" irish people in Africa. The "fair skinned" Irish you are talking about immigrated there. So there is no comparison. I am talking about indigenous groups. You know ones that have been there not immigrants.

4)I also dont think you understand the whole sickle-cell/malaria connection.But wont sidetrack...

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Simaril
OK, you've documented a difference. Now we need to determine which "side" has messed up their reporting. Is it the religious press, which cares about persecution of co-religionists, or the mainstream press?


Now, in fairness, lets also note that the "religious" press was up in arms about the slave trade in Sudan for literally YEARS before the rest of the world noticed. Even now the food situation in Darfor gets all the attention. Yet, the relligious press noticed precisely BECAUSE they had a particular interest that the mainstream put on a lower priority.

Nothing outside of religious circles has anything like the story reported. Propaghanda works on both sides...

Find a reputable source and I will retract my statement. But even the "independent verified source" given does not verify anything.

In fairness I am sure I could take 3 minutes and dig up twenty articles that the "religious press" was up in arms about, that didnt happen the way its reported. Everything has a spin these days and this appears no different.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Raider179
1)Comparing democracy or College students to Religion just doesnt hold any water for a debate in my book.

2)I have seen pictures of Pakistan and trust me it's not worth dying for to live there. lol

3) I dont think you understood what I was saying about race. There were no "fair skinned" irish people in Africa. The "fair skinned" Irish you are talking about immigrated there. So there is no comparison. I am talking about indigenous groups. You know ones that have been there not immigrants.

4)I also dont think you understand the whole sickle-cell/malaria connection.But wont sidetrack...

1) Why not? Both are deeply held beliefs. The only difference I can see is how popular the beliefs are.

So are you standing by the idea that to be a Pakistani Christian means you're stupid?

2) They arent dying for Pakistan -- any persecution is for their beleifs.

3) In contect, the discussion was about the distant past, essentially origins. The topic was about "Adam and Eve." So nobody here was talking about Belfast immigration.

And, if one takes the hypothesis of original evolution of humans in Africa, one is presented with EXACTLY the same problem -- where did the Irish skin come from when man started in the "dark" zones?

4) I'm a medical doctor. I take care of some sickle cell patients. I some casual familiarity with its genetics and effects.....

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Simaril
1) Why not? Both are deeply held beliefs. The only difference I can see is how popular the beliefs are.

So are you standing by the idea that to be a Pakistani Christian means you're stupid?

2) They arent dying for Pakistan -- any persecution is for their beleifs.

3) In contect, the discussion was about the distant past, essentially origins. The topic was about "Adam and Eve." So nobody here was talking about Belfast immigration.

And, if one takes the hypothesis of original evolution of humans in Africa, one is presented with EXACTLY the same problem -- where did the Irish skin come from when man started in the "dark" zones?

4) I'm a medical doctor. I take care of some sickle cell patients. I some casual familiarity with its genetics and effects.....

1)Religion requires "blind faith", College students and Governments are "Real"

2)Yes, stupid in sense of being realistic. If you live in Pakistan and are a Christian I am neither shocked nor surprised that something bad happened to you. Therefore since I see these things as "easy to see", I feel they are stupid for not seeing it.

Ever wonder why the KKK doesnt set up shop in Compton?

3)It was a joke.

4)Yeah you did when you brought fair-skinned irish people living in Africa into a discussion on race origins.

5)Adaptation to the enviroment over time.

6) I have no idea what your last statement means.

7) Your an MD?

[Simaril]

I'm not into a major argument here -- my point was really pretty simple. The fact that only specialty reporting has picked up teh story DOES NOT mean it isnt true. It doesnt prove it is true, but experience has shown that religious issues aren't well covered by the mainstream media. Knowing how the middle east treats religious conflict, it is entirely plausible that the home of christians might be burned -- shoot, the very creation of Pakistan should show that!! And why do you expect people to be realistic when it comes to their unpopular beliefs? Again, how realistic were the democracy demonstrators in Tianamen?

However, in the absence of "outside" evidence either way, your supposition was that the story was false. There wasnt any evidence that it was false, and there was reason why others might not report it.











It's a sign of our culture that we could say democracy is "real" and religion is "just belief," while still considering ourselves openminded.

Judgement with insufficient evidence, or based on predispostion -- that's almost the literal meaning of "prejudice."  And in western civilization right now, one could make a reasonable argument that there is a prejudice against people of belief.








My last comment was meant to be on the level of "Is the pope catholic?" I am familiar with the genetics of sickle cell anemia, with epidemiology (the study of disease in a population), and with the selection advantages that sickle cell delivers. I am an MD, and have board ceritfications in 3 different specialties. (Wife says I'm not allowed to get any more -- lol.) I also deeply believe that Christianity is The Truth, despite never having lived in the south, being well educated and well read, being able to think critically and independently, never having owned a pickup, and having no children with multiple first names (ie "Joe Bob" or "Billie Sue"). I admit that I get a bit miffed when I see faith equated with ignorance -- because although that's a popular prejudice in 21st century america, any objective review of history will find that there were some men of truly towering intellect who believed.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Simaril
I'm not into a major argument here -- my point was really pretty simple. The fact that only specialty reporting has picked up teh story DOES NOT mean it isnt true. It doesnt prove it is true, but experience has shown that religious issues aren't well covered by the mainstream media. Knowing how the middle east treats religious conflict, it is entirely plausible that the home of christians might be burned -- shoot, the very creation of Pakistan should show that!! And why do you expect people to be realistic when it comes to their unpopular beliefs? Again, how realistic were the democracy demonstrators in Tianamen?

However, in the absence of "outside" evidence either way, your supposition was that the story was false. There wasnt any evidence that it was false, and there was reason why others might not report it.


It's a sign of our culture that we could say democracy is "real" and religion is "just belief," while still considering ourselves openminded.

Judgement with insufficient evidence, or based on predispostion -- that's almost the literal meaning of "prejudice."  And in western civilization right now, one could make a reasonable argument that there is a prejudice against people of belief.

My last comment was meant to be on the level of "Is the pope catholic?" I am familiar with the genetics of sickle cell anemia, with epidemiology (the study of disease in a population), and with the selection advantages that sickle cell delivers. I am an MD, and have board ceritfications in 3 different specialties. (Wife says I'm not allowed to get any more -- lol.) I also deeply believe that Christianity is The Truth, despite never having lived in the south, being well educated and well read, being able to think critically and independently, never having owned a pickup, and having no children with multiple first names (ie "Joe Bob" or "Billie Sue"). I admit that I get a bit miffed when I see faith equated with ignorance -- because although that's a popular prejudice in 21st century america, any objective review of history will find that there were some men of truly towering intellect who believed.

My point was that the "independent verification" did nothing of the sort. When someone says here this proves this is factual, and it turns out that it does not prove it, I get very skeptical very quick.

I never once said it was implausible for this to happen in fact quite the opposite. here is my quote "If you live in Pakistan and are a Christian I am neither shocked nor surprised that something bad happened to you."

Yes I am starting to doubt this "particular" story. You wouldnt believe (or I guess you would) the number of similar stories that circulate on the "religious sites" I am by no means saying that some or most didnt happen but unless I see more info I am gonna doubt it. Like I said smells like propaghanda to me.


The term democracy is used to describe a form of government in which decisions are made with the direction of the majority of its citizenry through a fair elective process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

A form of government...Unless you are saying government isn't real either.

ok here is another site that makes no mention of the 200 burnt houses....Also notice the man is 35 and not 60. Closer to the BBC account of the event.


http://www.thenation.co.uk/hn.html

PESHAWAR: A Christian man has been arrested in North-West Frontier Province for allegedly desecrating a Qoran.  
Yousaf Masih, 35, was arrested late on Tuesday in the town of Nowshera, 40km (25 miles) east of Peshawar.  
Neighbours had complained Mr Masih had torn pages from the Koran and burned them in the street. About 300 people protested, demanding quick punishment.  
Insulting Islam, the Prophet Mohammad or the holy book can be punishable with death under blasphemy laws.  
Christian and human rights groups have called for the laws to be scrapped, claiming Christians have been persecuted because of them.  Some of the people protesting over Mr Masih's alleged actions reportedly pelted a nearby Hindu temple with stones wrongly thinking he was a Hindu.  Hindu MP Gur Sardar raised the issue in the provincial parliament, calling for greater protection for minority communities.  Police quelled the violence and arrested eight people for rioting.  Meanwhile, police in the district of Sheikhupura in the central province of Punjab say they have launched an inquiry into another alleged Koran desecration.  
They say a man tore pages out of the book in a village near Sheikhupura town on Sunday.  An angry crowd tried to beat him up, police say, but he escaped and is still on the run. The mob later tried to set fire to the local police station.

200 houses burned well you think that would make the news, notice no mention of it.

I wasnt equating faith with ignorance. I was equating the stupidity, with the  ignorance of living near someone who considers you an enemy and would just as soon cut off your head as say good morning.

[RedTop]

SEAGOON,

  Your quite a minister sir. I know since today is Sunday you won't probably see this until tomorrow , but  , I wanted to say that reading your replies and posts here are good.

  You seem to have taken on a second congregation to a point here. I also noticed as I read some of the replies and questions , a certain tone of maybe some wanting to learn more.

  Anyway , keep up the fine posts and answers to the questions. I enjoy them very much.