Author Topic: A well regulated militia...  (Read 4860 times)

TheWobble

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2001, 09:57:00 PM »
Interview with member of british legeslature with the Sunday Times(he would not do interview unless his name was kept out of it)

"We are trying to determine the best way to take people's minds off the fact that the gun ban here in the UK hasnt had any effect except to increase crime,"

Well there, I got it out of my system.. i know all you anti-gun folks will ignore or deny all these facts and other data..mainly because its the truth which is your known enemy, or maby you will come up with some clever personal insults to avoid facing the issue..oh well, im done with this thread.  America will always have guns, trying to have them banned/confiscated would result in a second civil war, so no matter what we will ALWAYS have them, we will never be in the situation of GB where the goverment has outright told us we do not have the right to defend ourselves, and then have to try to dillude ourselves into thinking that thats right.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 03-22-2001).]

Offline mietla

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2001, 10:13:00 PM »
Wobble,
you can surely carry this thread by yourself. No opponent necessary  

Offline mietla

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2001, 10:17:00 PM »
But of course I'm on your side, just could not resist to make a flippant comment.

Sandman_SBM

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2001, 10:19:00 PM »
Hmmm... pro-gun types go to What have you done today... for freedom?

Anti-gun types can go to The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

Doesn't really matter.. you can find "facts" to support either argument.

As for "personal attacks", I think wobble threw the first volley with:

     
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i cant believe some IDIOTS still believe that banning guns would actually reduce crime in the US, despite the fact that it has been proven exactly opposite...

That would make me one of the idiots. :P

I'm with Tac...      
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Keep lobbying to keep your toys, ill keep lobbying to have them taken away for good.

Oh... and IMHO, anecdotal evidence and anonymous legislative opinions don't mean toejam.

   
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Michael A. Bellesiles: An astoundingly high level of personal violence separates the United States from every other industrial nation. To find comparable levels of interpersonal violence, one must examine nations in the midst of civil wars or social chaos. In the United States of America in the 1990s, two million violent crimes and twenty-four thousand murders occurred on average every year. The weapon of choice in 70 percent of these murders was a gun, and thousands more are killed by firearms every year in accidents and suicides. In a typical week, more Americans are killed with guns than in all of Western Europe in a year.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs
The SBM's are hiring!

[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 03-22-2001).]

Offline fscott

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2001, 10:43:00 PM »
If Hitler hadn't built up such an armory of weapons, if Sadam Hussein hadn't built up such an arsenal of weapons, etc...

A shooting is nothing more than a small war. Take the weapons away and you will not have a war.

Any IDIOT can understand that.

fscott

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2001, 12:09:00 AM »
And I'm sure that when they ban guns, all the criminals will walk right up and hand theirs over.  

No one wants to take responsiblity for the circumstances that lead to people commiting violent crimes. Everyone wants to push the blame onto an inanimate object.

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Offline Tac

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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2001, 12:14:00 AM »
Not exactly Fscott.

You cannot prevent a criminal or psycho from killing. I agree with the fact that if someone wants a gun he will get it illegally regardless. However, making it illegal will drastically reduce the number of armed psychos and criminals out there. I dare wobble or any gun fanatik to get hard data on how many crimes are commited with legally acquired guns vs. black market guns. I bet the legally acquired ones will take more thank 70% of the pie. After all, why not? A non-resident (INS paperwork being processed), recent arrival from one of the worlds most violent countries (and from the most violent city in said country) can come into the US and 2 months later legally buy a glock, a shotgun and explosive tip ammo and get himself the license to carry the weapons around. Its so easy its LAUGHABLE. Did I mention the weapons are also incredibly cheap? 300 bucks for a pistol! 180 for a 9mm carbine! No wonder kids can save their lunch money or their burger flipping paycheck and have the money to buy one.

Like I said before, why is it illegal to carry a sword in public when it is legal to carry a concealed shotgun (with permit and all that crap)?? Why isnt there a "permit" to carry swords? Oh let me guess, that famous ammendment does not include blade weapons? Can anyone answer that one?


Offline Tac

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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2001, 12:20:00 AM »
"And I'm sure that when they ban guns, all the criminals will walk right up and hand theirs over."

Nope. Yet things have to start somewhere.
 
"No one wants to take responsiblity for the circumstances that lead to people commiting violent crimes. Everyone wants to push the blame onto an inanimate object"

An inanimate object that makes 1 person have the power to kill more than a dozen others, maybe more depending on the weapon.

People will commit crimes regardless. Its the tools that they can legally buy by LAW that makes them so dangerous.

When was the last time you saw someone become a mass murderer by going into a mcdonalds with a kitchen knife? Or with a car?

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2001, 12:38:00 AM »
Sorry all, long post. Shouldn't have started to post when real tired.  

Fscot,

What would you call those little things that happened before the invention of firearms??? I suppose according to your definition there was no such thing as "war". Perhaps you should tell that to those folks who were involved in minor disturbances like the crusades.

TAC and Sandman,

You are certainly entitled to your opinions. None here are saying you may not say what you wish. If they did no doubt you would be up and enraged saying that your "right" to speak is being infringed. How dare anyone tell you what to do or say or think, correct?

Why do you feel you have the "right" to impose your personal phobias on others? I have not seen anything in your posts saying you have a power of omniscience that grants you the honor of telling others how to live.

Why do I say these thing? Simple. You rail against those who have done nothing to harm another with their belongings. There are many laws in this country to be used for those who do harm to others. If one person harms another that person should be punished under the law. That does not mean the others in the same area of the community should also suffer penalties for the transgressions of another. To punish those who have not violated any laws, caused no harm to another (unlawfully) and are simply living as they see fit under the precepts of the constitution is not an exercise of freedom. It is an exercise of tyranny.

Earlier in the last century this country embarked on a crusade to legislate morality and see that the populace lived a "proper" life according to a few who felt they knew better. It is more commonly known as prohibition. Now the consumption of alcohol is rarely necessary for health or life. There are certainly more efficacious items to consume to gain the benefits of health. For that matter, with the exception of using alcohol for sterilization or as a gasoline additive (potential substitute) there is little real "need" to have it around. Yet this experiment in legislation made more felons of the out of the population of America than any other situation to date. It gave us a nation of scofflaws, organized crime and a massive legal fit trying to comply with the ramifications of the effects of prohibition. After a while this was seen for the idiocy it was and prohibition was ended.

We do have a carry over from this same kind of situation. It is called "the war on drugs". I seldom see a week go by that I see some "learned" person or prison inmate railing against this war. They call for an end to criminalization of drugs. They say it is a farce that there is a plethora of drugs in the U.S. and that the war is a failure. Now why should we stop? There is no real therapeutic use for heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, methamphetamines (in "recreational uses") and for that matter to a lesser extent, smoked marijuana. (THC can be isolated and used in pill form for cancer patients). These substances have a known and lengthy record of causing harm to the users, their families and those who happen to be in the area when the users have a reaction or problem while under the influence. The users of these substances range in age from the aged (old hippies?) to the young in elementary school. In dealing with this kind of person I have asked them why they use such a thing as heroin. Their response was that they liked it and wanted to continue using it.

Why do I bring this up? Simple. This is a type of "thing" that has no real useful purpose, has caused no end of hardship and heartache and has been medically proven to be injurious and or lethal. In short, there is absolutely no rational reason to have them available for the population to use as "recreation". Yet there are many calling for the laws banning these items to be taken out of the system and to make them readily available, even governmentally licensed for use.

Why is it OK to call for the legalization of substances, many of which are known to be lethal and have no purpose for benefiting people other than to "let them feel good" and to ban firearms which can and do have a purpose?

I have carried a firearm most of my adult life, it was a part of my career. I have seen what they can do when misused. I have not harmed another with any of my firearms. I have also dealt with others that had weapons, some of which were not using them for legal purposes.

I have also seen what the misuse of drugs, alcohol, automobiles even bicycles can do. Should they all be banned as well? I have been injured more than once by a person misusing a car and have a disability thanks to a negligent driver. In one of those situations it was a drunk driver that hit me. I have personal experience in trying to enforce laws governing the use these items. I do not advocate the legalization of drugs. I will speak out against it because of my experiences.

In regards to the other items I listed, I do not feel that those who do not misuse them should be penalized simply because I was harmed by someone who did. Only those who do cause harm with them should be punished.

A final note. One of the people advocating firearm banishment indicated he likes swords. A fellow Army Officer (My CO in my last unit) had to help his son recover from a near fatal stabbing from a sword. This happened at the local university and was an unprovoked act. Perhaps people who own swords and other large bladed weapons should have them confiscated. There is no justifiable reason for anyone to own one in today's society. Is there?

Mav
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Offline Maverick

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2001, 12:45:00 AM »
TAC,

I believe I saw a very small article in the paper the other week about a kid who deliberately drove his car into a group of kids from his high school. It didn't have nearly the news "appeal" of a firearms story so it didn't make the front page.

BTW I think the U.S. is still the leader in deaths from automobiles in the world. I think the stats still show about 35 to 40k a year.

The penalty for killing a person with a motor vehicle ranges from a traffic ticket to several years in prison. By far the majority do not go to prison for a lengthy period if at all. Ask Teddy Kennedy.

Mav
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2001, 02:23:00 AM »
 
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A retired solicitor (lawyer), not a shooter, owns a .22 rifle for sentimental reasons. When being interviewed in connection with the renewal of his Firearms Certificate, it comes to light that his mother (in her eighties) has access to the keys for his gun safe. 'She's an unauthorized person,' says the police officer pompously. 'Change the locks or we'll not renew.' 'Don't be silly,' replies our solicitor, or words to that effect. However, the Chief Constable is adamant and he refuses to renew the FAC. Our man appeals to Crown Court (expensive) where he loses (as expected). He then goes for a Judicial Review (very expensive - way beyond Mr Average) where he wins. The Chief Constable however, obviously having no crime to deal with in his area and appalled at the prospect of this eighty year old wresting the .22 rifle from its rack and careening across the county in a reign of terror, insists on going to the Appeal Court (mega expensive) where, ludicrously, he wins. Our man could then go to the House of Lords but, quite understandably, he has had enough by now, and gives up. No reproach to him, he fought a good fight and he has at least given us a vivid demonstration of just how ridiculous and vindictive our 'common sense' gun laws are.

TheWobble I've a simple answer to your posts :DURA LEX SED LEX

You Got it ?

 


Offline Raubvogel

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2001, 02:27:00 AM »
Tac, what I'm getting at is we need to take a long look at the social situations that push these people to commit the crime. It's much better to prevent a disease than wait and try to stop it later.

On a side note: Cigarettes kill 400,000 people every year in the United States. Let's ban them while we're at it.

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Offline Thud

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2001, 05:12:00 AM »
Every time when firearms & violence are discussed all the pro-firearm oriented people state that exactly the persons who actually use their guns (i.e. shoot someone) won't give up their guns and keep them illegally. This is their argument which for them implies that banning guns won't have any effect on firearms violence.

Of course this doesn't make any sense at all because lots and lots of shootings involve people who are no criminals (up till then) and for some reason find it necessary to shoot someone. If these people couldn't instantly draw their weapon in the heat of let's say an argument they would rethink themselves before they would go out and buy a clandestine gun and do it anyways. So banning adds another barrier and makes impulsive gunviolence less likely. Furthermore everybody who would still carry could be prosecuted this meaning that criminals with illegal firearms run a much greater risk than now, now they probably have a license although they're prepared to use their weapons, then anybody with an illegal weapon is caught.

P.S. I know that the majority of gunowners are responsible enough to handle those weapons but banning makes it more difficult for the moron minority among them to do others harm. In this case the majority has to give up their rights but get more safety in return.

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Bring the Hurricane (MKIIC) to AH! (together with the Invader!)

[This message has been edited by Thud (edited 03-23-2001).]

Offline Gh0stFT

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2001, 05:27:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel:
On a side note: Cigarettes kill 400,000 people every year in the United States. Let's ban them while we're at it.


Humans and the habit no matter how dangerously something is, humans continues nevertheless  

The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline leonid

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A well regulated militia...
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2001, 07:03:00 AM »
Okay, I'm not going to talk about guns, or amendments.  What I want to know is why children from the USA are killing their fellow students?  I'm not hearing much about this happening in other industrialized nations, so I might be able to assume that these school shooting incidents are way out of proportion to anything happening elsewhere.

As far as I can tell the type of kids that are doing this are really no different from kids from another country.  So, why the tendency in the USA for such amazing bloodshed?

What about our society has created this?  And it can only be our society that has done this, because it's happening in different places, and with different classes of people.  What is it about American values, American principles, that has breeded this very disturbing sociopathic trait?  And if nothing is done to explore, understand, and cure this sociological flaw in America, then I'm afraid to think of what new, and more horrible direction this trait will evolve into ...

And, no, I'm not flying off the handle - I'm very serious.  Really think about what's happening in this country, and bear in mind that we are supposed to be a civilized nation that values freedom, and equality.
ingame: Raz